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On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level.
i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive.
I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
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On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Maybe i just retard?
LOL
1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster.
2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect?
3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily.
4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed.
5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs.
If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge.
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On September 25 2010 11:21 EleanorRIgby wrote:blizzard keeps forcing terran to go bio in all 3 match ups and its no fun 
Can't argue with that.
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Muta/baneling counters tank/marine. I'm not sure why you are crying imba.
If you had made thors after your armory you would have done MUCH better.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
If you want help, you're going to have to keep an open mind and stop being defensive.
If you just want to rant about balance, then we'll close this down.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
Are you a pro player? No? Then that's not what I'm talking about. And you didn't harass, like at all. So, it might be hard for me to believe you're as good as you say, when evidence points to the contrary. And if Ryze is that good, then good for him, and it explains why he beat you. Dunno. I'll look at the replay again and point out some areas to improve.
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You sac'd your whole army to kill his expo, you should not have let the zerglings get a surround like that. Your 2nd tank chilled in the back for a while and you could have killed the hatchery sooner for one thing.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
You had a bad army composition for fighting what he had, and zerg had the perfect army composition for fighting what you had. Muta/ling/bling is great against marine/tank.
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1300 terran as well, although not for long I'm sure I'll drop. I like to open 3 or 4 rax reaper and expand, because it leaves me in a much better spot opening wise with an expansion and some bunkers.
You should assume mutas are next if they haven't baneling busted yet, or roaches. I'm not a fan of mech play either, but good zergs will punish you with banelings. Once you maurder heavy, they go mutas, you marine heavy ultra and zergling with banes. The biggest load is FG and banes. It's like bw theory craft in motion!! (maelstrom + storm)
It's not unwinnable, just mix mech and infantry together with some raaaveeeens!! It's the sci vessel of sc2. If they're running into an attack they CAN'T dodge HSM. It helps in a muta clump, or a bane ling cluster if you get lucky enough to fire on it. And we terrans all know the feeling of watching that 120 food army go to 80, with 2 medics and 8 maurders and 3 marines left, but if you have a few ravens you can throw some turrets to pick off those last mutas we ALL know are left.
I wouldn't say terran is weak, it's very reliant on an aggressive zerg. Macro zergs are intense to face, and I lose at least half of the games to zerg that expo once, twice, 5 times, expo in my base, one on top of an overlord.
Banelings have a lot of hypothetic counters. It all comes down to sniping them with your bio ball, seeing where they're being pathed too, and falling your army back and splitting. If you're on creep, god save you.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 torm wrote:LOL 1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster. 2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect? 3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily. 4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed. 5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs. If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge.
1. I transfered 8 scvs over at the start of my expansion. (gas took alot)
2. Out of position. I don't really know what to say to this. is it possible not to get caught out of position? only thing that comes to mind is stimming a marine ahead of army.
3. I don't really agree.
4. The push accomplished what i wanted it to. Got me way ahead. Cant really argue there.
5. I never found 4 turrets to be considered over compensating.
also to the guy pointing out i should have harassed more.
how?
I think after watching the game 4 or so more times i think i should have just waited for more bio. But it just seemed very strange it was so hard to follow up with a push attack.
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Iceland4053 Posts
In that particular game, well you just got caught out of position... You are prob a better player than me, so take this however you like.
Anyway what I'd have done in that situation: Fuck the 3rd, send a few hellions over there and roast the drones, but don't bother with your main army in killing it. Go to the closest base(the nat), possibly leapfrogging the tanks. As soon as you are putting pressure on the nat, he is forced to do something. Anyway I'd try incorporate atleast 1 thor into your army to just screw up the zerg's muta control. Else I really liked how well the zerg spread his creep... 
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1. You had A LOT of workers in your 1 base.
2. You built an armory and didn't make a thor.
3. You tried taking out the 3rd expansion and lost your whole army. That's fine.
4. THEN you REFUSE to make a thor or rebuild a stronger army this time and just push on a zerg.
By then, you are way behind! He just flat out outplayed you while you just bio'd + tank. Do you see what's wrong in this picture? I think if you revise your game a bit, you can beat a zerg.
On September 25 2010 11:31 FindingPride wrote:
I think after watching the game 4 or so more times i think i should have just waited for more bio. But it just seemed very strange it was so hard to follow up with a push attack.
LOL, more bio (specially of ONLY marines) is the least you needed.
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On September 25 2010 11:31 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:25 torm wrote:On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Maybe i just retard? LOL 1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster. 2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect? 3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily. 4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed. 5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs. If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge. 1. I transfered 8 scvs over at the start of my expansion. (gas took alot) 2. Out of position. I don't really know what to say to this. is it possible not to get caught out of position? only thing that comes to mind is stimming a marine ahead of army. 3. I don't really agree. 4. The push accomplished what i wanted it to. Got me way ahead. Cant really argue there. 5. I never found 4 turrets to be considered over compensating.
Are we watching the same replay?
1. Look at the point where you pushed out at the southern gold and got crushed. You have ~30 workers at your main (hence why its almost mined out) and 15 workers at your expansion.
2. Yes its very possible not to get caught out of position, its called slow pushing when you have tanks, such that you arent SIEGING as 500 banelings come rolly polly olling into your marines.
3. lol Why wouldnt you want to simcity against zerg? Why would you want to allow zerg the option of running speedlings into your expansion uncontested? Thumbs up.
4. The push I am talking about is the one at the southern gold, I dont see how that got you way ahead whatsoever as you had barely any units and he had a handful of mutalisks, as well as a 3rd.
5. You had 8 turrets, 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 =/= 4.
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I watched your game. I feel like you struggled because you got caught with your tanks unsieged in both of the major engagements in the open field. If you are going to go for such a tank heavy army, you need to do a tank push, and probably you want to push towards his natural again rather than trying to go all the way across the map.
I don't think making so many tanks is really a great idea against a muta/baneling zerg player. I would rather have only a couple tanks and some hellions and thors instead.
I'd really like to see some more aggressive harassment from you before he gets his mutas up.
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On September 25 2010 11:34 Zarahtra wrote:In that particular game, well you just got caught out of position... You are prob a better player than me, so take this however you like. Anyway what I'd have done in that situation: Fuck the 3rd, send a few hellions over there and roast the drones, but don't bother with your main army in killing it. Go to the closest base(the nat), possibly leapfrogging the tanks. As soon as you are putting pressure on the nat, he is forced to do something. Anyway I'd try incorporate atleast 1 thor into your army to just screw up the zerg's muta control. Else I really liked how well the zerg spread his creep...
You know this is actually a pretty good idea. I was thinking more on how i was investing so much into tanks that if i wanted to push half way across the map a better idea would have been to maybe have mixed a thor in and less tanks and more Marine/Marauder.
With the huge number of tanks it allows me to abuse the position. so ye I like how u said the hellion harass. But its hard to incorporate because it would take alot of time off more tanks or thors. But ye i learned alot from this post. Thanks. I just always hate investing in thors. But i think there a must for taking down his 3rd expansion.
Also i got the armor for the eng bay upgrades. I was very good about getting upgrades this game as i always am
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Plat level zerg player here. Been playing since beta.
Over time the sling/bling/muta build has become very popular against terrans using bio or biomech. Remeber though that you will usually have more options as far as units go than zerg. Instead of relying on that heavy ground army for an early game you might consider rushing for vikings. You said this guy you play against scouts really well? Take it away from him. It's pretty easy to keep Ovies out with decent troop placement and sim city.
Another thing that I can't stand as zerg is...The viking rush. Yep. Just a handful of these guys will be able to handle the mutas and shut down any ovie scouts. You could even split them up before or after fighting back the muta ball to really shut down zerg by killing ovies all over the map. At the very least zerg is forced to turtle his ovies until they has air sup.
If zerg stays with muta keep adding ports and more vikings. Smart zerg will switch right away unless he has a huge macro adv. So you transition back to biomech and have the bonus of having air sup and scouting adv.
Hope it helps.
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Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
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On September 25 2010 11:42 illgottengains wrote:
Plat level zerg player here. Been playing since beta.
Over time the sling/bling/muta build has become very popular against terrans using bio or biomech. Remeber though that you will usually have more options as far as units go than zerg. Instead of relying on that heavy ground army for an early game you might consider rushing for vikings. You said this guy you play against scouts really well? Take it away from him. It's pretty easy to keep Ovies out with decent troop placement and sim city.
Another thing that I can't stand as zerg is...The viking rush. Yep. Just a handful of these guys will be able to handle the mutas and shut down any ovie scouts. You could even split them up before or after fighting back the muta ball to really shut down zerg by killing ovies all over the map. At the very least zerg is forced to turtle his ovies until they has air sup.
If zerg stays with muta keep adding ports and more vikings. Smart zerg will switch right away unless he has a huge macro adv. So you transition back to biomech and have the bonus of having air sup and scouting adv.
Hope it helps.
The viking rush can be annoying, but mutas do beat vikings on a cost ratio. The favor only steeps more toward the zerg as the muta ball reaches critical mass due to the bouncing glaive.
I get a big grin on my face when I see a terran going vikings.
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On September 25 2010 11:01 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 10:58 Headshot wrote:
Just because your TvZ is weak doesn't mean that Terran is weak.
You can easily stim micro you bio away from Banelings off of creep, and going more marine-heavy and putting Turrets in good locations around your base nullifies Mutas. It wont nullify a large amount of muta and ur always going to need marines to defend. It's not cost effective to spam 10 turrets in ur main unless ur on like 4 base. and hes making nothing but muta. And the problem with stimming away from the banes is the mutas take care of whats left behind.
define cost effective.
cuz by my definition putting 2-3 turrets by each mineral line to completely STOP early harass is cost effective. even if you dont kill any mutas at all.
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Iceland4053 Posts
On September 25 2010 11:37 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:34 Zarahtra wrote:In that particular game, well you just got caught out of position... You are prob a better player than me, so take this however you like. Anyway what I'd have done in that situation: Fuck the 3rd, send a few hellions over there and roast the drones, but don't bother with your main army in killing it. Go to the closest base(the nat), possibly leapfrogging the tanks. As soon as you are putting pressure on the nat, he is forced to do something. Anyway I'd try incorporate atleast 1 thor into your army to just screw up the zerg's muta control. Else I really liked how well the zerg spread his creep... You know this is actually a pretty good idea. I was thinking more on how i was investing so much into tanks that if i wanted to push half way across the map a better idea would have been to maybe have mixed a thor in and less tanks and more Marine/Marauder. With the huge number of tanks it allows me to abuse the position. so ye I like how u said the hellion harass. But its hard to incorporate because it would take alot of time off more tanks or thors. But ye i learned alot from this post. Thanks. I just always hate investing in thors. But i think there a must for taking down his 3rd expansion. Also i got the armor for the eng bay upgrades. I was very good about getting upgrades this game as i always am
My point isn't so much to go heavy thor or anything, 1 thor will just make the zerg have to be a lot more careful using the mutas. My main point is really that there's no reason to run to the other side of the map, even if he has a 3rd there, you want to get those tanks in your opponent's face, so better go the shortest path. There you force your opponent to either do somekind of backstab or to engage you with your tanks sieged(aka in the best position possible for you, atleast if you've taken the creep out too).
It's not really a must to take the 3rd out, it's a must to keep it from mining effectively(and easiest way is obv. with hellions).
Edit: And while you could possibly take out the nat at first poke without the losses, I'd say you came out ahead by killing the nat, so I don't really see a reason to say that was a bad play like others say... :/
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EPT
