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http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1967
First off i am a terran player and i believe TERRAN is weak in this match-up. I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio.
In this game i go for a opening to play the map spawn. it works perfectly and it booms me way ahead. But the biggest issue in my opinion with this particular game is the fact that I can't take advantage of it. Infact i find it absolutely retarded that i can't. Maybe im just mentally handicapped. I don't know. but after killing a hatch early on then having ur expansion up before your opponent recovers his hatch I think id beable to quite easilly do a follow op on a measly 3rd expansion?
So what you will see this game. Perfect Scouting.
Perfect execution of an opener.
and then my opponent completely denying me of destroying his expansion. Now figuring out why i think is the hardest thing of all. I can't seem to grasp it. Cause honestly it feels like Banelings and mutas out at the same time is kind of like in BW where ur opponent has a huge number of muta and a huge number of lurkers all at once. you cant do anything till u get vessels so u just macro off of 2 base. but what do you do in sc2?
I wish i had an easy answer but I don't. Maybe i just retard?
I don't really know. But ryze is a great player but what frustrates me about this game is the fact that I can't do any sort of followup. Because the banes completely destroy my army when i move out almost no matter what and the mutas do a great job at containing.
When i do my 2nd push on his 3rd you will notice i leave about 3 tanks behind. I do this to deal with any counter attack which i thought was very likely. but even if i brought those tanks. they just would have been dead fish.
Alot of people will probably say well Pride why didnt you get medivacs? easy answer. I have played with ryze alot. Hes absolutely marvelous at scouting. They will get denied. and another reason for this is as well is the fact that medivacs Cost minerals. Yes minerals. And minerals not spent in more bio = bad.
But ideally medivacs help bio. but what use is bio when it gets 1 shotted by banes? see what im saying. So i usually put the extra minerals by not getting medis twords a faster third or more bio. Which imo is a great investment.
So folks my consensus is this. What in fucks name should i do? I see alot of terrans like to mass mech up till 200 and just slowly expand. but I don't like this play. There isn't much opportunity for aggression and you can't punish your opponent for mass expanding.
I have one idea right now and one idea only. If it is nearly impossible to do any sort of pressure. I need to invest in a very fast 3rd and medivacs and do my best to turtle my way to 200. What do you all think? Id be curious to see if alot of people have ran into what i have.
Notice i did not mention imbalance. If taking a very fast 3rd cause there is no possible way to be aggressive off of 2 base bio vs zerg. that is completely fine If thats how the game should work. But Im trying to figure out if there is any way to make bio work. I don't believe the 200 mech turtle is the way to play. I hate that style of play.
Also I don't like to utilize thors vs mutas because i dont feel they are cost effective. They cost a shit ton. And i feel if i skip them i can invest into more bio and a 3rd which i think is far more cost effective.
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Just because your TvZ is weak doesn't mean that Terran is weak.
You can easily stim micro you bio away from Banelings off of creep, and going more marine-heavy and putting Turrets in good locations around your base nullifies Mutas.
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I believe you are weak in this match-up.
User was warned for this post
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You have to micro your medivacs to keep them near your marines, one slip up and you just wasted a ton of minerals.
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I suck PvZ compared to my PvT but that doesn't mean PvZ is harder.
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On September 25 2010 10:58 Headshot wrote:
Just because your TvZ is weak doesn't mean that Terran is weak.
You can easily stim micro you bio away from Banelings off of creep, and going more marine-heavy and putting Turrets in good locations around your base nullifies Mutas.
It wont nullify a large amount of muta and ur always going to need marines to defend. It's not cost effective to spam 10 turrets in ur main unless ur on like 4 base. and hes making nothing but muta. And the problem with stimming away from the banes is the mutas take care of whats left behind.
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Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad.
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On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad.
Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble.
But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post.
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Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1967First off i am a terran player and i believe TERRAN is weak in this match-up. I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio. In this game i go for a opening to play the map spawn. it works perfectly and it booms me way ahead. But the biggest issue in my opinion with this particular game is the fact that I can't take advantage of it. Infact i find it absolutely retarded that i can't. Maybe im just mentally handicapped. I don't know. but after killing a hatch early on then having ur expansion up before your opponent recovers his hatch I think id beable to quite easilly do a follow op on a measly 3rd expansion? So what you will see this game. Perfect Scouting. Perfect execution of an opener. and then my opponent completely denying me of destroying his expansion. Now figuring out why i think is the hardest thing of all. I can't seem to grasp it. Cause honestly it feels like Banelings and mutas out at the same time is kind of like in BW where ur opponent has a huge number of muta and a huge number of lurkers all at once. you cant do anything till u get vessels so u just macro off of 2 base. but what do you do in sc2? I wish i had an easy answer but I don't. Maybe i just retard? I don't really know. But ryze is a great player but what frustrates me about this game is the fact that I can't do any sort of followup. Because the banes completely destroy my army when i move out almost no matter what and the mutas do a great job at containing. When i do my 2nd push on his 3rd you will notice i leave about 3 tanks behind. I do this to deal with any counter attack which i thought was very likely. but even if i brought those tanks. they just would have been dead fish. Alot of people will probably say well Pride why didnt you get medivacs? easy answer. I have played with ryze alot. Hes absolutely marvelous at scouting. They will get denied. and another reason for this is as well is the fact that medivacs Cost minerals. Yes minerals. And minerals not spent in more bio = bad. But ideally medivacs help bio. but what use is bio when it gets 1 shotted by banes? see what im saying. So i usually put the extra minerals by not getting medis twords a faster third or more bio. Which imo is a great investment. So folks my consensus is this. What in fucks name should i do? I see alot of terrans like to mass mech up till 200 and just slowly expand. but I don't like this play. There isn't much opportunity for aggression and you can't punish your opponent for mass expanding. I have one idea right now and one idea only. If it is nearly impossible to do any sort of pressure. I need to invest in a very fast 3rd and medivacs and do my best to turtle my way to 200. What do you all think? Id be curious to see if alot of people have ran into what i have. Notice i did not mention imbalance. If taking a very fast 3rd cause there is no possible way to be aggressive off of 2 base bio vs zerg. that is completely fine If thats how the game should work. But Im trying to figure out if there is any way to make bio work. I don't believe the 200 mech turtle is the way to play. I hate that style of play.Also I don't like to utilize thors vs mutas because i dont feel they are cost effective. They cost a shit ton. And i feel if i skip them i can invest into more bio and a 3rd which i think is far more cost effective.
Just because all you do vs zerg is a bioball doesn't mean it's harder for T in a TvZ. He's obviously just countering what you are so commited to doing. Just because he's countering your play, doesn't mean Terran is at a disadvantage.
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Give it some time, see what you can come up with.
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This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level.
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Being a former terran player switching to zerg, I think I can help you out here. First off, you have many many options for harassment as a terran versus a zerg. I understand you talk about medivac, marine, and marauder a lot, but there are many units at your disposal. You can open a 5 rax reaper to gain map control early on, you can get a reactor for a fast hellion harass, or you can go banshee harass. All three are very valid options against a zerg.
Doing marine drops with just 8 marines in one medivac is annoying like nothing else. I would hope you can do 2 or three simultaneous drops with 1 medivac each (I'm ~1000 zerg and I average 100 apm with peaks above 300 and I've done it before).
You really got caught off guard in that game. The banelings were on top of your tanks and marines by the time you sieged up. I agree that sling/bling/muta is hard to combat as a terran, but you barely killed anything against his flank.
Your army also had no marauders and a low count of marines in it... you had a lot of resources into the tanks.
You can get creative and make ghosts to snipe the mutas, or you could go hellion/thor (which I still have yet to find a counter to that doesn't involve a lot of infestors). I used to win 95% of my TvZ games before I switched, and now I'd say I'm about 70% against terran as zerg. These two have both been my best matchups (dang protoss and their 4 gate shenanigans!)
It's very winnable either way. That's just my 2 cents.
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On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble. But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post.
Kill drones and the expansion is worthless, so whats the difference? Hellions are also amazing at killing lings and banelings, which you seem to be having problems with. When you're going mech gas is by far the limiting factor, and hellions are a nice way to use those extra minerals.
And how was my post harsh? You said a couple times you don't want to have to turtle to 200 (somewhat indicative of me reading your post), and I said you don't have to.
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blizzard keeps forcing terran to go bio in all 3 match ups and its no fun 
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how on earth can you honestly say medivacs are a bad investment? this statement alone basically sums up the fact that you have no conceptual understanding of terran vs zerg, or anything for that matter.
if a zerg beats you, in this current state of the game, he is superior to you in that game itself, or just as an overall player.
also, use maurauders, and 3-3 marines smash mutalisks into the ground.
MMM tank is all you need in tvz.
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On September 25 2010 11:20 eH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble. But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post. Kill drones and the expansion is worthless, and hellions are also amazing at killing lings and banelings, which you seem to be having problems with. When you're going mech gas is by far the limiting factor, and hellions are a nice way to use those extra minerals. And how was my post harsh? You said a couple times you don't want to have to turtle to 200 (somewhat indicative of me reading your post), and I said you don't have to.
Not banelings, really. Banelings aren't light, but hellions are. So you could consider banelings a counter TO hellions.
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is awesome32274 Posts
This should be in the strategy section or blogs.
Ill move it to the strategy section, if you want it in blogs, PM me.
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Wrong section imo, anyway he is doing exactly what he needs to counter you. Medivacs do help and micro your rines.
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If you'd have gotten ONE thor you'd have won that.
Also, Maynard some SCVs to your nat .. you had 30 in your main and 13 at your nat, so your income was lower even tho you were 14 workers ahead.
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On September 25 2010 11:22 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:20 eH wrote:On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble. But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post. Kill drones and the expansion is worthless, and hellions are also amazing at killing lings and banelings, which you seem to be having problems with. When you're going mech gas is by far the limiting factor, and hellions are a nice way to use those extra minerals. And how was my post harsh? You said a couple times you don't want to have to turtle to 200 (somewhat indicative of me reading your post), and I said you don't have to. Not banelings, really. Banelings aren't light, but hellions are. So you could consider banelings a counter TO hellions.
Don't have to be light, banelings have junk hp's, arent nearly as fast, and bunch up like mad. A few hellions properly microed will slaughter them. Yeah, hellions arent quite as good against them as they are against lings, but if he's saccing a bunch of banelings to stop a couple hellions I feel like thats not too bad, its not like hellions are all that hard to come by.
I mean, zerg could commit his whole army to stopping a couple hellions in one place which of course you'll lose to, but what if you send out 2 different hellion control groups?
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On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level.
i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive.
I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
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On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Maybe i just retard?
LOL
1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster.
2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect?
3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily.
4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed.
5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs.
If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge.
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On September 25 2010 11:21 EleanorRIgby wrote:blizzard keeps forcing terran to go bio in all 3 match ups and its no fun
Can't argue with that.
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Muta/baneling counters tank/marine. I'm not sure why you are crying imba.
If you had made thors after your armory you would have done MUCH better.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
If you want help, you're going to have to keep an open mind and stop being defensive.
If you just want to rant about balance, then we'll close this down.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
Are you a pro player? No? Then that's not what I'm talking about. And you didn't harass, like at all. So, it might be hard for me to believe you're as good as you say, when evidence points to the contrary. And if Ryze is that good, then good for him, and it explains why he beat you. Dunno. I'll look at the replay again and point out some areas to improve.
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You sac'd your whole army to kill his expo, you should not have let the zerglings get a surround like that. Your 2nd tank chilled in the back for a while and you could have killed the hatchery sooner for one thing.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
You had a bad army composition for fighting what he had, and zerg had the perfect army composition for fighting what you had. Muta/ling/bling is great against marine/tank.
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1300 terran as well, although not for long I'm sure I'll drop. I like to open 3 or 4 rax reaper and expand, because it leaves me in a much better spot opening wise with an expansion and some bunkers.
You should assume mutas are next if they haven't baneling busted yet, or roaches. I'm not a fan of mech play either, but good zergs will punish you with banelings. Once you maurder heavy, they go mutas, you marine heavy ultra and zergling with banes. The biggest load is FG and banes. It's like bw theory craft in motion!! (maelstrom + storm)
It's not unwinnable, just mix mech and infantry together with some raaaveeeens!! It's the sci vessel of sc2. If they're running into an attack they CAN'T dodge HSM. It helps in a muta clump, or a bane ling cluster if you get lucky enough to fire on it. And we terrans all know the feeling of watching that 120 food army go to 80, with 2 medics and 8 maurders and 3 marines left, but if you have a few ravens you can throw some turrets to pick off those last mutas we ALL know are left.
I wouldn't say terran is weak, it's very reliant on an aggressive zerg. Macro zergs are intense to face, and I lose at least half of the games to zerg that expo once, twice, 5 times, expo in my base, one on top of an overlord.
Banelings have a lot of hypothetic counters. It all comes down to sniping them with your bio ball, seeing where they're being pathed too, and falling your army back and splitting. If you're on creep, god save you.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 torm wrote:LOL 1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster. 2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect? 3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily. 4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed. 5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs. If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge.
1. I transfered 8 scvs over at the start of my expansion. (gas took alot)
2. Out of position. I don't really know what to say to this. is it possible not to get caught out of position? only thing that comes to mind is stimming a marine ahead of army.
3. I don't really agree.
4. The push accomplished what i wanted it to. Got me way ahead. Cant really argue there.
5. I never found 4 turrets to be considered over compensating.
also to the guy pointing out i should have harassed more.
how?
I think after watching the game 4 or so more times i think i should have just waited for more bio. But it just seemed very strange it was so hard to follow up with a push attack.
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In that particular game, well you just got caught out of position... You are prob a better player than me, so take this however you like.
Anyway what I'd have done in that situation: Fuck the 3rd, send a few hellions over there and roast the drones, but don't bother with your main army in killing it. Go to the closest base(the nat), possibly leapfrogging the tanks. As soon as you are putting pressure on the nat, he is forced to do something. Anyway I'd try incorporate atleast 1 thor into your army to just screw up the zerg's muta control. Else I really liked how well the zerg spread his creep... 
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1. You had A LOT of workers in your 1 base.
2. You built an armory and didn't make a thor.
3. You tried taking out the 3rd expansion and lost your whole army. That's fine.
4. THEN you REFUSE to make a thor or rebuild a stronger army this time and just push on a zerg.
By then, you are way behind! He just flat out outplayed you while you just bio'd + tank. Do you see what's wrong in this picture? I think if you revise your game a bit, you can beat a zerg.
On September 25 2010 11:31 FindingPride wrote:
I think after watching the game 4 or so more times i think i should have just waited for more bio. But it just seemed very strange it was so hard to follow up with a push attack.
LOL, more bio (specially of ONLY marines) is the least you needed.
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On September 25 2010 11:31 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:25 torm wrote:On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Maybe i just retard? LOL 1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster. 2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect? 3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily. 4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed. 5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs. If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge. 1. I transfered 8 scvs over at the start of my expansion. (gas took alot) 2. Out of position. I don't really know what to say to this. is it possible not to get caught out of position? only thing that comes to mind is stimming a marine ahead of army. 3. I don't really agree. 4. The push accomplished what i wanted it to. Got me way ahead. Cant really argue there. 5. I never found 4 turrets to be considered over compensating.
Are we watching the same replay?
1. Look at the point where you pushed out at the southern gold and got crushed. You have ~30 workers at your main (hence why its almost mined out) and 15 workers at your expansion.
2. Yes its very possible not to get caught out of position, its called slow pushing when you have tanks, such that you arent SIEGING as 500 banelings come rolly polly olling into your marines.
3. lol Why wouldnt you want to simcity against zerg? Why would you want to allow zerg the option of running speedlings into your expansion uncontested? Thumbs up.
4. The push I am talking about is the one at the southern gold, I dont see how that got you way ahead whatsoever as you had barely any units and he had a handful of mutalisks, as well as a 3rd.
5. You had 8 turrets, 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 =/= 4.
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I watched your game. I feel like you struggled because you got caught with your tanks unsieged in both of the major engagements in the open field. If you are going to go for such a tank heavy army, you need to do a tank push, and probably you want to push towards his natural again rather than trying to go all the way across the map.
I don't think making so many tanks is really a great idea against a muta/baneling zerg player. I would rather have only a couple tanks and some hellions and thors instead.
I'd really like to see some more aggressive harassment from you before he gets his mutas up.
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On September 25 2010 11:34 Zarahtra wrote:In that particular game, well you just got caught out of position... You are prob a better player than me, so take this however you like. Anyway what I'd have done in that situation: Fuck the 3rd, send a few hellions over there and roast the drones, but don't bother with your main army in killing it. Go to the closest base(the nat), possibly leapfrogging the tanks. As soon as you are putting pressure on the nat, he is forced to do something. Anyway I'd try incorporate atleast 1 thor into your army to just screw up the zerg's muta control. Else I really liked how well the zerg spread his creep...
You know this is actually a pretty good idea. I was thinking more on how i was investing so much into tanks that if i wanted to push half way across the map a better idea would have been to maybe have mixed a thor in and less tanks and more Marine/Marauder.
With the huge number of tanks it allows me to abuse the position. so ye I like how u said the hellion harass. But its hard to incorporate because it would take alot of time off more tanks or thors. But ye i learned alot from this post. Thanks. I just always hate investing in thors. But i think there a must for taking down his 3rd expansion.
Also i got the armor for the eng bay upgrades. I was very good about getting upgrades this game as i always am
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Plat level zerg player here. Been playing since beta.
Over time the sling/bling/muta build has become very popular against terrans using bio or biomech. Remeber though that you will usually have more options as far as units go than zerg. Instead of relying on that heavy ground army for an early game you might consider rushing for vikings. You said this guy you play against scouts really well? Take it away from him. It's pretty easy to keep Ovies out with decent troop placement and sim city.
Another thing that I can't stand as zerg is...The viking rush. Yep. Just a handful of these guys will be able to handle the mutas and shut down any ovie scouts. You could even split them up before or after fighting back the muta ball to really shut down zerg by killing ovies all over the map. At the very least zerg is forced to turtle his ovies until they has air sup.
If zerg stays with muta keep adding ports and more vikings. Smart zerg will switch right away unless he has a huge macro adv. So you transition back to biomech and have the bonus of having air sup and scouting adv.
Hope it helps.
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Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
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On September 25 2010 11:42 illgottengains wrote:
Plat level zerg player here. Been playing since beta.
Over time the sling/bling/muta build has become very popular against terrans using bio or biomech. Remeber though that you will usually have more options as far as units go than zerg. Instead of relying on that heavy ground army for an early game you might consider rushing for vikings. You said this guy you play against scouts really well? Take it away from him. It's pretty easy to keep Ovies out with decent troop placement and sim city.
Another thing that I can't stand as zerg is...The viking rush. Yep. Just a handful of these guys will be able to handle the mutas and shut down any ovie scouts. You could even split them up before or after fighting back the muta ball to really shut down zerg by killing ovies all over the map. At the very least zerg is forced to turtle his ovies until they has air sup.
If zerg stays with muta keep adding ports and more vikings. Smart zerg will switch right away unless he has a huge macro adv. So you transition back to biomech and have the bonus of having air sup and scouting adv.
Hope it helps.
The viking rush can be annoying, but mutas do beat vikings on a cost ratio. The favor only steeps more toward the zerg as the muta ball reaches critical mass due to the bouncing glaive.
I get a big grin on my face when I see a terran going vikings.
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On September 25 2010 11:01 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 10:58 Headshot wrote:
Just because your TvZ is weak doesn't mean that Terran is weak.
You can easily stim micro you bio away from Banelings off of creep, and going more marine-heavy and putting Turrets in good locations around your base nullifies Mutas. It wont nullify a large amount of muta and ur always going to need marines to defend. It's not cost effective to spam 10 turrets in ur main unless ur on like 4 base. and hes making nothing but muta. And the problem with stimming away from the banes is the mutas take care of whats left behind.
define cost effective.
cuz by my definition putting 2-3 turrets by each mineral line to completely STOP early harass is cost effective. even if you dont kill any mutas at all.
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On September 25 2010 11:37 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:34 Zarahtra wrote:In that particular game, well you just got caught out of position... You are prob a better player than me, so take this however you like. Anyway what I'd have done in that situation: Fuck the 3rd, send a few hellions over there and roast the drones, but don't bother with your main army in killing it. Go to the closest base(the nat), possibly leapfrogging the tanks. As soon as you are putting pressure on the nat, he is forced to do something. Anyway I'd try incorporate atleast 1 thor into your army to just screw up the zerg's muta control. Else I really liked how well the zerg spread his creep... You know this is actually a pretty good idea. I was thinking more on how i was investing so much into tanks that if i wanted to push half way across the map a better idea would have been to maybe have mixed a thor in and less tanks and more Marine/Marauder. With the huge number of tanks it allows me to abuse the position. so ye I like how u said the hellion harass. But its hard to incorporate because it would take alot of time off more tanks or thors. But ye i learned alot from this post. Thanks. I just always hate investing in thors. But i think there a must for taking down his 3rd expansion. Also i got the armor for the eng bay upgrades. I was very good about getting upgrades this game as i always am
My point isn't so much to go heavy thor or anything, 1 thor will just make the zerg have to be a lot more careful using the mutas. My main point is really that there's no reason to run to the other side of the map, even if he has a 3rd there, you want to get those tanks in your opponent's face, so better go the shortest path. There you force your opponent to either do somekind of backstab or to engage you with your tanks sieged(aka in the best position possible for you, atleast if you've taken the creep out too).
It's not really a must to take the 3rd out, it's a must to keep it from mining effectively(and easiest way is obv. with hellions).
Edit: And while you could possibly take out the nat at first poke without the losses, I'd say you came out ahead by killing the nat, so I don't really see a reason to say that was a bad play like others say... :/
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On September 25 2010 11:26 _Darwin_ wrote:
Muta/baneling counters tank/marine. I'm not sure why you are crying imba.
If you had made thors after your armory you would have done MUCH better.
only with micro idiot. sure bane counters marine but tanks counter bane and have more range and marines counter mutas.
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On September 25 2010 11:55 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:26 _Darwin_ wrote:
Muta/baneling counters tank/marine. I'm not sure why you are crying imba.
If you had made thors after your armory you would have done MUCH better. only with micro idiot. sure bane counters marine but tanks counter bane and have more range and marines counter mutas.
He didn't seem to have enough stuff, really. Enough marine/marauder. Perhaps too heavy marine, but it's hard to say. Anyhow, if you're not at a level where you can properly micro your infantry, then muta baneling likely is OP.
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what you need to do against baneling is micro better.
when he starts coming at you stim your mm ball and move back but then make the marauders stop and fire, killing and sponging banes while your marines keep running back. as far as mutas go upgraded marines i think work even BETTER than thors.
of course theres also the fast hellion with +1 attack into thors with +2 attack that is a really really good style play vs zerg.
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On September 25 2010 11:56 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:55 charlie420247 wrote:On September 25 2010 11:26 _Darwin_ wrote:
Muta/baneling counters tank/marine. I'm not sure why you are crying imba.
If you had made thors after your armory you would have done MUCH better. only with micro idiot. sure bane counters marine but tanks counter bane and have more range and marines counter mutas. He didn't seem to have enough stuff, really. Enough marine/marauder. Perhaps too heavy marine, but it's hard to say. Anyhow, if you're not at a level where you can properly micro your infantry, then muta baneling likely is OP.
ya most games in general come down to who has the most stuff but you said he should have gotten thors, which means he would have even less stuff overall. i think he could have done alot better with just better micro.
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ive talked to a few different terrans on battle net that tell me they think baneling should be nerfed and every other zerg unit should get a buff. i kinda agree with them. ^^
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On September 25 2010 11:44 MythicalMage wrote:
Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push .
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On September 25 2010 10:58 Headshot wrote:
Just because your TvZ is weak doesn't mean that Terran is weak.
You can easily stim micro you bio away from Banelings off of creep, and going more marine-heavy and putting Turrets in good locations around your base nullifies Mutas.
Unless you spend half your income on turrets I don't see how that will nullify mutas.
Nonetheless, I'm indifferent about the matchup balancing. The strategy of sc2 isn't developed enough to pass judgment on race balance issues.
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vikings. Vikings own multa+ling combo if you have 2 starport and reactors
they are perfect for harassing mineral lines as well has destroying mutalisk. However, don't expect 3 vikings to be able to take out 5 mutas.
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On September 25 2010 12:02 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:44 MythicalMage wrote:
Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push .
I watched it twice. Unfortunately. A timing push isn't "pressure". And it certainly isn't harass. And I'm pretty sure Boxer wouldn't move command his marines away from the battle to let his tanks die.
As for the early push, before the banes were out, you just moved your marines too far forward from your tanks.
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On September 25 2010 12:05 aztrorisk wrote:
vikings. Vikings own multa+ling combo if you have 2 starport and reactors
they are perfect for harassing mineral lines as well has destroying mutalisk. However, don't expect 3 vikings to be able to take out 5 mutas.
Cept all zerg units that can hit air are cost effective against vikings.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 25 2010 12:02 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:44 MythicalMage wrote:
Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push .
It's not all about microing the marines better but it was more about how you are way out of position and he had the BEST counter for your unit composition. You already lost every time you pushed out with your army because bio (specially marines) just gets obliterated vs banes/mutas; hence why you needed thors.
As for how to counter banelings, you get in good position with your tanks sieged and protected by marines or marauders and if he attacks, select your tanks and right click on banes.
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On September 25 2010 12:15 sc2lime wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 25 2010 12:02 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:44 MythicalMage wrote:
Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push . It's not all about microing the marines better but it was more about how you are way out of position and he had the BEST counter for your unit composition. You already lost every time you pushed out with your army because bio (specially marines) just gets obliterated vs banes/mutas; hence why you needed thors. As for how to counter banelings, you get in good position with your tanks sieged and protected by marines or marauders and if he attacks, select your tanks and right click on banes.
Yeah, it takes a LOT of banelings to kill a Thor.
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On September 25 2010 12:05 aztrorisk wrote:
vikings. Vikings own multa+ling combo if you have 2 starport and reactors
they are perfect for harassing mineral lines as well has destroying mutalisk. However, don't expect 3 vikings to be able to take out 5 mutas.
If thats not off base I don't know what is. Mutas eat up vikings unless you manually spread them. Splash + FF and vikings fall.
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first of all, why don't you just contain the zerg after killing his hatch? 1 base terran with bunkers and tanks kills 1 base zerg, even with muta
second of all, why didn't you do any agresion after you kills his hatch the first time. The zerg should of been able to stop your push but he didn't make enough lings, and lost his hatch. After he started to rebuilt it was the perfect to time to kill it again. 8 stimmed marauders can finish a brand new hatch in a matter of seconds. You should of made a timing push when he was powering drones and didn't have any units.
Also making purely marine tank IMO is not good. Banelings are one of the very few hard counter unit zerg has against T. Banelings kill marines wonderfully, marauders okay assuming you can hit like 8 at a time and you can get enough banelings to hit, and they also kill hellions pretty well assuming you can get them to hit (hellions are light armored units). Incorperating marauders into your unit mix would of been a good idea, and maybe more medivacs later on in the game.
Your overall gameplay isn't perfect. There are a lot of large holes in your game that you need to fix before you start whining about balance. Fix those first and then start complaining. I haven't played seriously in a couple of weeks and im a 1200 diamond zerg.
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On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
But Im trying to figure out if there is any way to make bio work.
This is pretty much what you're entire posts boiled down to, you felt you played extremely well (yes your tone is quite cocky and you've been very defensive in this thread) and then you wondered why you couldn't win with your bio only (and tanks).
Its clear you don't want to play mech, or have anything to do with thors or hellions, however your opponent countered your bio ball with the exact counter he should have, hence the moment you decided to stick with that composition you lost the game.
Thors are about equal cost in killing mutas, and thats only if the zerg player micros properly. If he screws up the thors will chew those mutas up like nothin. For the love of everything use medivacs, they are amazingly good, no banelings do not 1 shot marines, it takes 2 hits and yes thats a big difference.
Many people here gave you very good advice, and you choose to ignore that advice because for the most part they said you screwed up, which for some reason you can't seem to accept.
If you want to win you have to use more than 3 units, especially when your opponent is hard countering those units.
[Also vikings are terrible vs mutas per cost, don't listen to that person]
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On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
The highest food you were ever ahead was 24 at 12:18 and did not attack at that time. The highest food you were ahead when you attacked was 17 at 14:09 or so when you got caught moving your tanks and marines towards his 3rd. Being ahead by food doesnt mean anything when there is no fighting at that time.
Also your timing push at the beginning did more harm to you than him after that battle the lost tab had you losing 12 units worth 1150 and him losing only 8 units worth 625, 100 of which was an overlord in your base. 300 for the hatchery and the rest were zerglings. You didnt kill one drone or the queen. That attack put you behind. You were 4 workers ahead at that moment but you lost almost double the resources in your attack.
I just wanted to point that out in case maybe you gave us a different replay than the one you are looking at.
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Yeah TvZ is not hard for T at all. I just played vs you 4 times and you didn't have to do anything to win. Just macro barracks and 1A every game. Doesn't seem that hard to me..
Just saying. It's easier than any other match.
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You made a lot of tactical mistakes with your tanks. Honestly if you're going to go pure marine/tank and never go thors or medivacs for stim you have to kill him with that first push. You basically let your tanks get flanked really easily and target fired the hatchery letting the lings get right on them. After that battle the optimal play would have been to shift your composition for a longer game. You didn't and you lost. You should have won that game with the first attack because his spire was up so late.
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You were in such a supreme advantage when Ryze the zerg player pretty much gave you his nat. For whatever reason he got a bling nest, but didn't use it. instead he got the upgrade before even making any blings, which if flipped, most likely would have saved his nat.
You are trying to justify avoiding a certain unit in your composition simply because you are trying to find its weaknesses, instead of trying to exploit is strengths. Medivacs are amazing even with marine/medivac vs blings...if you add stim micro.
here are the reasons you lost:
1. After trading a small force for the zerg nat, you don't continue the pressure, the zerg felt safe to power for literally the rest of the game. No added pressure means a strong economy.
2. You refuse to get more bling meatshields. 1 thor or a few maraders in a different control group could have changed the battle. yes one thor vs 6 mutas might not be cost effective, but 1 thor with 20 stimmed marines can take out an entire flock of mutas.
3. For whatever reason, you let the zerg creep all the way up to you. Thus making the last battle really easy for the blings to get to your marine line.
4. You blindly run tanks around the map. Just like in bw TvP, you cant just move tanks across the map and expect to win. you have to make sure the coast is clear before you try any sort of positioning game. Which of course you cant do when running across creep. Think from the zergs perspectives. When is the best time to attack? When he is unseiged on my creep. Bingo
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On September 25 2010 12:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 12:05 aztrorisk wrote:
vikings. Vikings own multa+ling combo if you have 2 starport and reactors
they are perfect for harassing mineral lines as well has destroying mutalisk. However, don't expect 3 vikings to be able to take out 5 mutas. If thats not off base I don't know what is. Mutas eat up vikings unless you manually spread them. Splash + FF and vikings fall.
If you micro 9 range on vikings isn't so useless.
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you could do a "stalife" drop.. he gets a medvac with 4 maruders and drops them on the banelings when they come rolling it.. it is quite genious and extremely cost effective will take out so many banelings and their splash will be extremely mitigated. I havent succesfully done this yet but i've seen it in action and it is pretty godly if you pull it off.
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wow... seriously people make these posts ?
get a couple tanks and slow push with your bio focus firing Banelings... if you dont have the apm to select a control group and tell them what to do im sorry your bad... if he tries to fly into your army with mutas to pick off the tanks stim and destroy his mutas... a thor at each expo makes it so hard to mutas to harass mineral lines because in order to focus a turret they will have to use the magic box which in turn means multiple mutas will be getting hit by multiple turrets and marines... move a thor into your main bio mech push... this forces your opponent to magic box again... any mis micro means the games pretty much over...
so seriously how bad are the terran in diamond, its quit clear after watching the replay and listening to you say its pretty much impossible to do everything anyone has suggested that they are quite awful. such a faceroll race and when your faceroll doesnt work you cant think of a way around it ?
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On September 25 2010 13:08 royal.cze wrote:
wow... seriously people make these posts ?
get a couple tanks and slow push with your bio focus firing Banelings... if you dont have the apm to select a control group and tell them what to do im sorry your bad... if he tries to fly into your army with mutas to pick off the tanks stim and destroy his mutas... a thor at each expo makes it so hard to mutas to harass mineral lines because in order to focus a turret they will have to use the magic box which in turn means multiple mutas will be getting hit by multiple turrets and marines... move a thor into your main bio mech push... this forces your opponent to magic box again... any mis micro means the games pretty much over...
so seriously how bad are the terran in diamond, its quit clear after watching the replay and listening to you say its pretty much impossible to do everything anyone has suggested that they are quite awful. such a faceroll race and when your faceroll doesnt work you cant think of a way around it ?
I'm not sure if you're serious, no one is going to waste chunks of their army to idly sit in an expo to protect it (thor) and even if they did, one thor wont do much vs 10+ mutas. Also Focus firing banelings would take a LOT of apm... individually picking out each unit you want dead? Also you are assuming a person can shoot and move at the same time. You can't shoot at mutalisks while you run from banelings.
Next time you the phrase "your bad" less, its quite hypocritical.
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On September 25 2010 13:14 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 13:08 royal.cze wrote:
wow... seriously people make these posts ?
get a couple tanks and slow push with your bio focus firing Banelings... if you dont have the apm to select a control group and tell them what to do im sorry your bad... if he tries to fly into your army with mutas to pick off the tanks stim and destroy his mutas... a thor at each expo makes it so hard to mutas to harass mineral lines because in order to focus a turret they will have to use the magic box which in turn means multiple mutas will be getting hit by multiple turrets and marines... move a thor into your main bio mech push... this forces your opponent to magic box again... any mis micro means the games pretty much over...
so seriously how bad are the terran in diamond, its quit clear after watching the replay and listening to you say its pretty much impossible to do everything anyone has suggested that they are quite awful. such a faceroll race and when your faceroll doesnt work you cant think of a way around it ? I'm not sure if you're serious, no one is going to waste chunks of their army to idly sit in an expo to protect it (thor) and even if they did, one thor wont do much vs 10+ mutas. Also Focus firing banelings would take a LOT of apm... individually picking out each unit you want dead? Also you are assuming a person can shoot and move at the same time. You can't shoot at mutalisks while you run from banelings. Next time you the phrase "your bad" less, its quite hypocritical.
ROFL yah leaving a thor at your mineral line well the remainder of your army sits at the fron of your expo is a HUGE waste... wow seriously not sure what to say to you.
and yah pressing 3 or whatever you have your tanks grouped into and right clicking on a baneling ball rolling towards to you is pretty micro intensive since 1 shot from one siege tank still kills a group of banelings.... you dont shot the mutalisks... the point is to keep your marines alive so they rape the mutas when the banelings are dead... yah shoot and scooting seems like a pro idea when speeded banelings are on your tail...
you made my day seriously...
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now that i watched the replay... you traded almost 800 mineral and 300 gas to kill a spine crawler and a hatchery that he instantly put back up... had you not been "focusing" the hatching and just a-moved into it i am fairly certain you would have cleaned up the majority of those lings and killed the hatch anyway.
secondly this ryze kid has good map control because you give him the xel nagas the whole game... before you move your army across the map send a few units to clear the xel naga... if you were just engaged by mutas you should probably scan any high ground you are about to go up... instead of walking into a baneling ambush.
combat shields helps reduce the kill radius of banelings and it also helps your marines live alot long against mutas.
you have the biggest 1 a syndrome ever. put your marines in 2 siege your tanks with 1 and run back wards with your marines... yah you might lose a tank or two but if you focus the baneling groups with your tanks instead of the lings... which should be easy since you have your tanks in 1 and your marines are already running backwards ( not shoot and scootin ) since they will just kill marines... also you should have more marauders to soak the lings and banelings for the tanks. and dont say you dont have the ability to do that since you end the game at like a buck forty... you must be doing something instead try and focus with the tanks.
work stim and combat shields into your build early you had the gas to be researching them so long ago...
no reason at all not to have a starport...especially since you have SO much gas you arent using...
not to mention it was nice of you to let him spread the creep to your doorstep but maybe less mules more scans so he doesnt have that map control.
saying seems balanced at the end of games doesn't really accomplish anything.
ps if you cant win the micro game against muta baneling just practice one of the 20 all in builds terran have at their disposal and win that way.
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Although royal is saying it like an ass, thors are the answer to this. Have a thor by the time they have a large number of mutas and its gg, mutas countered and by now you should be on 2 base. Keep one thor at each base and build up a few tanks, 1-2 more thors, blue flame hellions, medvacs and keep pumping those marines, now push and win. Your only job is not to get baneling busted or muta harssed which is super easy if you have a thor. You should probably do some hellion harass or marine drops in there somewhere.
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wtf i quoted myself by accident edit.
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On September 25 2010 13:36 statikg wrote:
Although royal is saying it like an ass, thors are the answer to this. Have a thor by the time they have a large number of mutas and its gg, mutas countered and by now you should be on 2 base. Keep one thor at each base and build up a few tanks, 1-2 more thors, blue flame hellions, medvacs and keep pumping those marines, now push and win. Your only job is not to get baneling busted or muta harssed which is super easy if you have a thor. You should probably do some hellion harass or marine drops in there somewhere.
not trying to be an ass i just see this same argument every day and I answer it everyday...
this guy says he gets muta harassed in the replay the mutas dont even fly into his base... hes use to 1a'in his army into an opponents army and winning the game with terran which is fine but when you reach a certain level that isn't going to work anymore...
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You people have to stop arguing when you're all saying the same thing.
Bottom line is the Zerg played well and the Terran just massed bio tank the whole game expecting to win. He was missing key units in his army like thors and marauders to tank the baneling damage and is overly aggressive when his units are inferior to the opponent with better micro/game sense.
Like any other RTS out there, you have to adapt to win. Your bio army got shut down when you went for his expansion so you should have stayed in base for a bit until you get a more suitable army.
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On September 25 2010 13:03 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 12:37 iAmJeffReY wrote:On September 25 2010 12:05 aztrorisk wrote:
vikings. Vikings own multa+ling combo if you have 2 starport and reactors
they are perfect for harassing mineral lines as well has destroying mutalisk. However, don't expect 3 vikings to be able to take out 5 mutas. If thats not off base I don't know what is. Mutas eat up vikings unless you manually spread them. Splash + FF and vikings fall. If you micro 9 range on vikings isn't so useless.
vikings dont have the turn speed to micro mutas.
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On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1967First off i am a terran player and i believe TERRAN is weak in this match-up. I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio. In this game i go for a opening to play the map spawn. it works perfectly and it booms me way ahead. But the biggest issue in my opinion with this particular game is the fact that I can't take advantage of it. Infact i find it absolutely retarded that i can't. Maybe im just mentally handicapped. I don't know. but after killing a hatch early on then having ur expansion up before your opponent recovers his hatch I think id beable to quite easilly do a follow op on a measly 3rd expansion? So what you will see this game. Perfect Scouting. Perfect execution of an opener. and then my opponent completely denying me of destroying his expansion. Now figuring out why i think is the hardest thing of all. I can't seem to grasp it. Cause honestly it feels like Banelings and mutas out at the same time is kind of like in BW where ur opponent has a huge number of muta and a huge number of lurkers all at once. you cant do anything till u get vessels so u just macro off of 2 base. but what do you do in sc2? I wish i had an easy answer but I don't. Maybe i just retard? I don't really know. But ryze is a great player but what frustrates me about this game is the fact that I can't do any sort of followup. Because the banes completely destroy my army when i move out almost no matter what and the mutas do a great job at containing. When i do my 2nd push on his 3rd you will notice i leave about 3 tanks behind. I do this to deal with any counter attack which i thought was very likely. but even if i brought those tanks. they just would have been dead fish. Alot of people will probably say well Pride why didnt you get medivacs? easy answer. I have played with ryze alot. Hes absolutely marvelous at scouting. They will get denied. and another reason for this is as well is the fact that medivacs Cost minerals. Yes minerals. And minerals not spent in more bio = bad. But ideally medivacs help bio. but what use is bio when it gets 1 shotted by banes? see what im saying. So i usually put the extra minerals by not getting medis twords a faster third or more bio. Which imo is a great investment. So folks my consensus is this. What in fucks name should i do? I see alot of terrans like to mass mech up till 200 and just slowly expand. but I don't like this play. There isn't much opportunity for aggression and you can't punish your opponent for mass expanding. I have one idea right now and one idea only. If it is nearly impossible to do any sort of pressure. I need to invest in a very fast 3rd and medivacs and do my best to turtle my way to 200. What do you all think? Id be curious to see if alot of people have ran into what i have. Notice i did not mention imbalance. If taking a very fast 3rd cause there is no possible way to be aggressive off of 2 base bio vs zerg. that is completely fine If thats how the game should work. But Im trying to figure out if there is any way to make bio work. I don't believe the 200 mech turtle is the way to play. I hate that style of play. Also I don't like to utilize thors vs mutas because i dont feel they are cost effective. They cost a shit ton. And i feel if i skip them i can invest into more bio and a 3rd which i think is far more cost effective.
Bio gets owned by bling/infestor, mech gets owned by nothing except very well micro'd mutas and ultras. As a zerg player the following units are the hardest for me to deal with with my ling/bling/infestor/muta build:
Early reaper harrass
Hellion drops or run by's
Tanks..always.
Thors critical mass
Battlecruisers unscouted almost always = GG unless i've already teched hydras for vikings
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On September 25 2010 12:52 Dr.Frost wrote:
Yeah TvZ is not hard for T at all. I just played vs you 4 times and you didn't have to do anything to win. Just macro barracks and 1A every game. Doesn't seem that hard to me..
Just saying. It's easier than any other match.
I don't think its that simple O,o.
1A into zerg, gg ur marines got blown up by banes and now mutas are wrecking ur tanks/rauders.
I don't really think army vs army is the imbalance in zvt. Early game pressure, and the amount of options T has is, and even then the imbalance only really shine in top level games.
Anyway I watched you're replay, and yes you did micro you're marines great, putting them in different hotkeys so u can easily micro was a smart choice. But honestly whats the point of even microing them marines if you don't have something to tank the banelings, you can't really rely on siege tanks to clean up all the banes ( Unless you're holed up in a nice defensive position) more marauders would have probably won you the game on ur second confrontation at the bottem gold minerals.
You siege you're tanks, you hit you're marine hotkey send them to the back, and all the banelings blow up on you're marauders instead of just chasing you're marines out of siege tank range. If zerg actually try to micro the banes and chase them marines then concussive shells would prob slow half the banes and keep em in the tanks range. Then you're marines just clean up the mutas. You also had the armory to produce a thor, also great vs banes and mutas w/ marine support!
Just my 0.02 cents man , you can micro those marines as much as you want but if you don't have some sort of blocking unit to put in between the banes and you're marines, there gonna die inevitably.
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I think you're probably too nice of a guy, subconsciously you don't want to abuse the many unfair advantages terran has so you try to rationalize what you're doing by saying you can't do something when you can and could abuse Z so much, anyway GL
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To OP:
http://starcraft2reps.com/download.php?id=1969
Here's a replay I just played. Now I am not a good player at all but in 25:00 in game, that is how you should have approached a zerg with ling/banes/mutas. Now I know I lost a lot of units in that fight, but I felt that he was ahead in this game and I was able to barely come out on top and take out his army. The point is how you need to keep your marines alive since they would mostly be the ones who will do damage to your oppenent's lings/mutas.
It's not perfect but what I do is before engaging, I hotkey all my marines in a secondary hotkey and put them in the back of my army; that way once the banelings come, I run my marines and let other units hit the banelings as they pass. I hope this helps.
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On September 25 2010 13:14 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 13:08 royal.cze wrote:
wow... seriously people make these posts ?
get a couple tanks and slow push with your bio focus firing Banelings... if you dont have the apm to select a control group and tell them what to do im sorry your bad... if he tries to fly into your army with mutas to pick off the tanks stim and destroy his mutas... a thor at each expo makes it so hard to mutas to harass mineral lines because in order to focus a turret they will have to use the magic box which in turn means multiple mutas will be getting hit by multiple turrets and marines... move a thor into your main bio mech push... this forces your opponent to magic box again... any mis micro means the games pretty much over...
so seriously how bad are the terran in diamond, its quit clear after watching the replay and listening to you say its pretty much impossible to do everything anyone has suggested that they are quite awful. such a faceroll race and when your faceroll doesnt work you cant think of a way around it ? I'm not sure if you're serious, no one is going to waste chunks of their army to idly sit in an expo to protect it (thor) and even if they did, one thor wont do much vs 10+ mutas. Also Focus firing banelings would take a LOT of apm... individually picking out each unit you want dead? Also you are assuming a person can shoot and move at the same time. You can't shoot at mutalisks while you run from banelings. Next time you the phrase "your bad" less, its quite hypocritical.
One thor VS 10+ mutas = no good..but one thor and 3-4 well placed turrets = good.
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First, you shouldn't be making a thread asking for advice and then getting defensive when people tell you what you did wrong. In fact, your posts sound more like bragging about how good you are and because you lose the matchup is imbalanced. I'm glad you at least explain to people why you don't like their ideas, but maybe you should consider listening seeing as yours obviously aren't working.
Anyhow being constructive,
Zerg takes a HUGE hit when they lose their natural that early in the game, it's that simple. One base zerg can't compete with one base Terran. Unless he builds a second hatch in his main, you will outmacro him. You FF'd the Hatchery, and let your tanks get surrounded and your marines get killed. Even so, you still took down the expansion. You need to be more aggressive when you deal a blow like that to Zerg.
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On September 25 2010 14:47 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 13:14 ibreakurface wrote:On September 25 2010 13:08 royal.cze wrote:
wow... seriously people make these posts ?
get a couple tanks and slow push with your bio focus firing Banelings... if you dont have the apm to select a control group and tell them what to do im sorry your bad... if he tries to fly into your army with mutas to pick off the tanks stim and destroy his mutas... a thor at each expo makes it so hard to mutas to harass mineral lines because in order to focus a turret they will have to use the magic box which in turn means multiple mutas will be getting hit by multiple turrets and marines... move a thor into your main bio mech push... this forces your opponent to magic box again... any mis micro means the games pretty much over...
so seriously how bad are the terran in diamond, its quit clear after watching the replay and listening to you say its pretty much impossible to do everything anyone has suggested that they are quite awful. such a faceroll race and when your faceroll doesnt work you cant think of a way around it ? I'm not sure if you're serious, no one is going to waste chunks of their army to idly sit in an expo to protect it (thor) and even if they did, one thor wont do much vs 10+ mutas. Also Focus firing banelings would take a LOT of apm... individually picking out each unit you want dead? Also you are assuming a person can shoot and move at the same time. You can't shoot at mutalisks while you run from banelings. Next time you the phrase "your bad" less, its quite hypocritical. One thor VS 10+ mutas = no good..but one thor and 3-4 well placed turrets = good.
soooo what you wait to have a thor and 3-4 turrets to protect a mineral line? kinda stretching ur minerals.
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ive talked to a few different terrans on battle net that tell me they think baneling should be nerfed and every other zerg unit should get a buff. i kinda agree with them.
I agree with this 100%. Baneling are too much of a problem for Terran. They make Marines obsolete which leaves you without enough options to deal with Mutalisks.
What other options do you have? Thors are too slow, easily outmaneuvered and extremely expensive. Vikings I would argue are not cost effective against the Mutalisk ball. Raven has HSM - maybe that is the answer? I think something definitely needs to change with Banelings.
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On September 25 2010 15:16 DanceDance wrote:Show nested quote +ive talked to a few different terrans on battle net that tell me they think baneling should be nerfed and every other zerg unit should get a buff. i kinda agree with them. I agree with this 100%. Baneling are too much of a problem for Terran. They make Marines obsolete which leaves you without enough options to deal with Mutalisks. What other options do you have? Thors are too slow, easily outmaneuvered and extremely expensive. Vikings I would argue are not cost effective against the Mutalisk ball. Raven has HSM - maybe that is the answer? I think something definitely needs to change with Banelings.
Use multiple control groups for your units. Unit positioning. Micro. Set. Match.
Problem solved.
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Pride, I've actually played w/ you and Ryze before, during some eSg practice sessions. To be honest, I just think Ryze is a superior player. Also, Tanks shut down bLings hard if they're sieged, but thing about playing against a good Zerg is that if they are scouting diligently they'll just catch you on the move.
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On September 25 2010 15:16 DanceDance wrote:Show nested quote +ive talked to a few different terrans on battle net that tell me they think baneling should be nerfed and every other zerg unit should get a buff. i kinda agree with them. I agree with this 100%. Baneling are too much of a problem for Terran. They make Marines obsolete which leaves you without enough options to deal with Mutalisks. What other options do you have? Thors are too slow, easily outmaneuvered and extremely expensive. Vikings I would argue are not cost effective against the Mutalisk ball. Raven has HSM - maybe that is the answer? I think something definitely needs to change with Banelings.
Banelings arnt that bad to deal with O.o
However as them as a unit I don't like, something that suicides itself in hopes of killing shit around it, kinda boring and pretty 1 dimensional. Wish they picked the lurker or something else worthwhile to be the light unit killer over the baneling.
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On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Also I don't like to utilize thors vs mutas because i dont feel they are cost effective. They cost a shit ton. And i feel if i skip them i can invest into more bio and a 3rd which i think is far more cost effective.
As a zerg player I just wanted to comment on this a bit. Just because thors can be beaten with mutas doesn't mean they're not good in my opinion. If you have some thors mixed in with your bio ball it does a few things.
1)The zerg can't be as care free with his muta movement, because if they're bunched at all and a thor gets a shot in it's pretty damaging.
2)soak up a lot of damage and force the zerg to magic box at every engagement.
If you're lucky they'll soak up some baneling damage and it's not like thors are bad against ground either!
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Don't let the complaining get to you, OP. My weakest matchup is TvZ as well. Good Z players are hell to play against. Unfortunately, there are not many good Z players, and I think the 'imbalance attitude' has hindered the growth of lower level players.
I always feel like I'm in a 'kill zerg now or lose' mode because their end-game options are so incredible. I have yet to beat a competent zerg player once ultras hit the field, and broodlords are rough as well when they force you to tech-switch back and forth.
Oh, and don't feel bad about losing to Ryze. He's got a really good ZvT. In a craftcup a while ago I beat MasterAsia pretty easily (very high ranked zerg player) and then lost to Ryze 3-1, if that's any indication.
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You can beat Ryze with nothing but early Hellions. At least, I did, two easy 10 minute games.
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For this game in particular, you had it won if you had simply attack moved your marines and sieged tanks at his natural on your first push, rather than force attacking his natural. You would've kept most of your army alive, and then been able to strengthen the contain and slowly choke your way into his main and win it.
As Terran, the key to winning this matchup is to keep the bulk of your army alive. Any army trade favors zerg, because they get a free round of powerdroning before they have to start pumping military units to catch up.
To follow up, you should continue to push along the same line on the high ground from your natural to his. Set up camp on the ledge with some siege tanks and get a PF down there as your third. If he wants to take a faraway third, fine, let him. You can push into his main and wreck all his tech.
Make a habit of sending a scout unit ahead of your army to avoid getting caught off position too. I know it's annoying to do (I still have trouble with it), but it keeps you alive.
And try to spend that gas on something... Ravens would probably be ideal for your style (detection is mandatory, and pdd is great if you don't wanna invest in HSM research). Other options are ghosts, thors, or more tanks.
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On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
i just retard
yes, but in all seriousness
On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Alot of people will probably say well Pride why didnt you get medivacs? easy answer. I have played with ryze alot. Hes absolutely marvelous at scouting. They will get denied. and another reason for this is as well is the fact that medivacs Cost minerals. Yes minerals. And minerals not spent in more bio = bad.
But ideally medivacs help bio. but what use is bio when it gets 1 shotted by banes? see what im saying. So i usually put the extra minerals by not getting medis twords a faster third or more bio. Which imo is a great investment.
So folks my consensus is this. What in fucks name should i do? I see alot of terrans like to mass mech up till 200 and just slowly expand. but I don't like this play. There isn't much opportunity for aggression and you can't punish your opponent for mass expanding.
what? stim earlier so the medivacs can heal a fair bit before the battle > a few more units
denied with what? he has to make less counter your army units to deal with it
banes require at least 2 shots save for stimmed non-upgraded marines
your 1300 but dislike medivacs? how easy is terran?!
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Skipping thors is silly, they're amazing sponges and do well against EVERY zerg unit
You can't cry imbalance when you simply refuse to use 90% of your arsenal
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hmm I just want to say have anyone watched Cool vs ogsTop game 3?
Top's 200 foot max thor army got raped by like 8 ultras (he had about 16 thors)
balance plz
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TvZ is my weakest and ZvT is my strongest. I don't understand how everyone can jump the bandwagon and say T is so crazy OP; maybe they are Z who still goes roach/hydra?
I can't understand why cool complained about T drops either. As Z, placing OL's in key spots, spread creep and having the most mobile army in the game - mutaling - how hard is it to defend against pressure? Once mutas pop, any sort of pressure tvz is SO risky.How are you going to stop Z macroing?
Blings are also crazy. You cant fight at a choke TvZ because you cant spread out units -> you loose, a tight 200 mech army will still loose to muta/ling/bling.
Add infestor to the mix, and how hard is it to stop any bio play?
Ignore the games Z goes roach/hdyra and just focus on TvZ against muta/ling into ultra play. They sure as hell don't win 9/10 times, atleast now with 1.1 and reaper openings abit weaker.
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doesnt it take 3 banelings to kill 1 helion if ur not bunched tight? surely that says it all there. 150 minerals 75 gas to kill a 100mineral unit.
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[B] I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio.
how can u do well in many tournaments playing like this is beyond me
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i am also terran around 1200-1300 who has trouble TvZ
i open reactor hellion into banshee or viking harass then turtle up on 2-3 bases for a bit
even if i am successful in killing a bunch of drones/overlords/queens early and have my expo up before theirs if left alone for 10 min a good zerg WILL out macro multiple times over, 100% of the time (EG:cool vs top yesterday game 3)
i rarely win straight up macro games vs zerg unless they are bad... and i think it is very hard to do so. Zergs that i see lose macro game are usually ones that dont tech to hive fast enough and rely on just mass roach/hydra/ling/muta...
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I'm a 1300 terran having exact the same problems vs zerg. I don't have a problem with the fact that I lose 70% of my TvZ games, but I really have a big problem when I read "Terran is OP, zvt is impossible". I can take out 1500+ protoss and terran players, but a 1000 points zerg will always give me a very hard time. A 1000 points terran or protoss is much easier for me. There is something that those topterrans know what I don't know. I am still searching for a replay where a terran wins against muta baneling without pure mech.
Another thing: ultralisks. Am I the only one not seeing a solution to beat them? In sc1 you had the vessel to deal with ultras, but in sc2 I just don't know what to do.
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On September 25 2010 19:16 KaiserJohan wrote:
I can't understand why cool complained about T drops either. As Z, placing OL's in key spots, spread creep and having the most mobile army in the game - mutaling - how hard is it to defend against pressure? Once mutas pop, any sort of pressure tvz is SO risky.How are you going to stop Z macroing?
.
Exactly. A lot of zergs advice me to "drop", but a zerg that places overlords on key spots will always catch my medivacs. If the medivac is not catched then speedlings will be under it so dropping will be useless.
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On September 25 2010 20:07 Fadetowhite wrote:Show nested quote +[B] I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio.
how can u do well in many tournaments playing like this is beyond me
A Zerg player playing like this would be platinum at best. I can't believe how easy it is for Terran to get this high in diamond.
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holy fuck
jesus, you played that game like a platinum level player.
Here are some tips:
If you take out his expo ZERG IS SO FAR BEHIND. You couldve just gone and killed him. But you didnt, you stayed in your base and got supply stuck every 20 seconds, while allowing him to get mutas off of 10 zerglings or so. lol.
You absolutely need medivacs. Yes 1 medivac is 2 marines less in minerals. But those medivacs will keep your 30 marine ball alive when it has to stim and then stim again. Not getting medivacs is all in since you HAVE to do damage or your army is gone.
If he has zerglings get hellions. By simply a-moving with hellions in your army, they will scout ahead and you will know when to siege up.
You let him spread the creep to your base. Not good. Scan and take out creep tumors. Banelings with speed on creep > stimmed marines.
You had WAY too many turrets. 5 is fine for 2 bases until the muta numbers are exploding but until then you can just go and kill him since mutas are so gas heavy.
Going cross map to kill his expo is NOT the correct move in these positions. You couldve just slowpushed him while sim-ciyting your expansion (not doing that is free eco dmg for Zerg) with supply depots and new production facilities. If you slow push correctly with turrets and marine micro he will NOT be able to kill your army. Period. His Mutas die to your stimmed marines with medivac support (Combat Shields also help) and anything on the ground has no chance against well spread out tanks.
Also I hate people that cry about imbalance. You have a fuckton of holes in your play, go fix those first, before you start telling Blizzard what is balanced and what isn't.
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How to kill zerg as terran:
Contain him so he only gets to mine main and nat and then just harass those with banshees helions, drops or a few vikings to kill ovies, once the bases are mined out you've won the game. Don't overextend and whatever you do don't go on creep (raven or scan it to kill it). It's all about stopping zerg from getting map control.
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The overlord placement is why i sometimes get a few vikings after reactor hellion to clear their map control... then there is a small window to do some drops/harass before mutas come out. But once mutas are out every drop you do is basically a suicide drop.. medivac with 8 marines is 500/100 gotta kill alot of drones to make it worth it...
its also very hard to do all of that harass while expanding and getting defense for your expo.
its possible to over harass... ive actually lost a couple times when my harass was very successful killed a bunch of drones/overlords etc, The zerg just got mad and attacked with a like 10 of roaches and some lings and i lost.. at the time my army consisted only of a few marines 3-4 hellions 3-4 vikings. impossible to hold your expansion unless you get some tanks or something (but then you cant harass as much)
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On September 25 2010 20:31 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 19:16 KaiserJohan wrote:
I can't understand why cool complained about T drops either. As Z, placing OL's in key spots, spread creep and having the most mobile army in the game - mutaling - how hard is it to defend against pressure? Once mutas pop, any sort of pressure tvz is SO risky.How are you going to stop Z macroing?
. Exactly. A lot of zergs advice me to "drop", but a zerg that places overlords on key spots will always catch my medivacs. If the medivac is not catched then speedlings will be under it so dropping will be useless.
This is kind of map specific, but at close air positions, it is quite difficult for zerg to manage terran drops. That's because it takes some time for mutas to approach the dropships AND to kill them. In BW days, scourge provided effective defence against drops, because of the instant kill and the fact, scourge were patroling around the critical spots most of the time.
The mutas are used to harass and gain mapcontrol. To fulfill its role, they must fly around the map and not be used defensively. That's probably why Cool complained.
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I am also having a lot of problems in TvZ. I can't keep up with zerg's macro unless I go for some aggressive strategy early on. If zerg holds this off they're in good shape and will win with macro.
I also have big problems dealing with the zerg's army composition. Roaches, lings, banelings, and mutas are like the perfect combined-arms-warfare machine. Mutas from air, roaches from range, lings melee, and banelings do splash for a combined army with insane dps. Using changelings, ling scouting, or overlords, the zerg can scout my army composition, quickly adjust, and fight on creep to surround my forces.
And if I'm not very aggressive, they can get to late game with ultras + broodlords and that's death.
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On September 25 2010 20:49 Yilar wrote:
How to kill zerg as terran:
Contain him so he only gets to mine main and nat and then just harass those with banshees helions, drops or a few vikings to kill ovies, once the bases are mined out you've won the game. Don't overextend and whatever you do don't go on creep (raven or scan it to kill it). It's all about stopping zerg from getting map control.
How are you going to contain the most mobile army, mutaling?
Banshees looses effectiveness once mutas pop, and even before that 3 queens can defend fine. Hellions wont do enough damage with queens, spines and roaches. Are you going to gamble that one hellion drop before mutas pop will ruin his economy?
Mutaling IS map control; that, creep & OL's. How are you going to hold xelnaga towers by the way? splings are very cost-effective in that regard, 50mineral scv/marine wont hold it. Say on metalopolis, where they are crucial to hold.
Especially on cross positions, Z can macro like crazy, how are you going to stop it with hellion/banshees? You need serious firepower (thor/tanks, tanks/rines, MMM) to stop expos from going up but muta/ling is devastating in midgame.
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Honestly this thread should be closed. I've seen 20 different valid arguments and players post about what the OP did wrong and it seems his ego is making him believe he is infallible. If you want help: make a help thread in strategy and be open to criticism. If you want to cry about overpowered T v Z, I'd more than love to show you the door.
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Why dont you try spreading your bio out vs the banelings? Stupid Terran players being to lazy to use more then 1A to micro, In sc1 when i played Terran i had 1-6 full and I could stim and micro fine vs Zerg dont let the banelings take out "all your units" But Fyi Mech play is better vs Zerg. Start practicing it. TvZ is easy ( I play random )
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I've watched the replay a bunch of times. Here's what I think.
1) As someone mentioned earlier, taking out the natural was great but Pryde lost the resource battle. He lost like 8 marines and 2 tanks. I think zerg lost like 5 zerglings. Pryde had I think 2 tanks and 2 marines at his base after the battle. Also, one rax and one factory. I don't see how he can do any harass in the immediate future given that zerg has banelings and more speedlings to deal with terrran's way too small army at that point. Maybe when Pryde gets some more buildings up but then it's a push, not harass.
2) Are people really suggesting using scans to kill a couple of creep tumors that early in the game when macro is so huge?
3) I agree that you made too many turrets.
4) I agree that your scvs were weighted too heavily at your main. .
5) Cause of loss by a mile was obviously the battle below the high yield. I thought your micro was quite good but there was no friggin way you are winning it even with perfect micro and tanks sieged ahead of time. No combat shields and no medivacs was what really killed you. Your marines had so little survivability to deal with the mutas. You can throw in the thor or whatever if you like but if you are doing any kind of bio, I don't see how you can omit medivacs.
6) As mentioned before, the decision to attack the 3rd was wrong. It wasn't even producing yet. Too far away etc. Had you attacked his natural instead, you wouldn't really have to worry about a counter at your natural.
7) Also, do you really need that many tanks if you are doing a bio/tank combo vs bling/muta? I know your attack force didnt have too many but you had another 3 back at your expansion. Seems like you should have more marines and marauders instead of those wasted tanks at your exp.
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Sigh... if there ever was a situation where an ascii-facepalm would be justified, it would be now.
But no, I aim to become a very valuable member of this site so I'm going to go ahead and do it the gentlemen way:
On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. .
Well, since drones are the only way to mine gas and minerals, I'm gonna make a wild statement here and say that killing only a few drones is much more effective as a means of eco harassment than destroying hatcheries. This should be common knowledge to anyone, drones probes and SCVs are everything in this game unless your opponent is double-saturated or something.
And don't say it's not possible to kill drones with Hellions.
On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive.
Yeah sure. Well I've only seen this one replay of you but from what I've seen your understanding of army positioning and your situational awareness during combat sucks ass, even though this is the most important feature of a terran player. At the end of the game you began to siege your tanks when his banelings already killed your bioball, even though you saw him long earlier. Instead of sieging your tanks earlier to defend the position, you chased the Zerg probably thinking that he's afraid of you and going to run away, which obviously was wrong. Had you sieged your tanks a few moments earlier and would he have attacked you then, his banelings and lings would've been gone before they did any damage at all.
You also couldve spotted his army way way earlier if you'd just spent a few clicks on sending a marine to the xel naga tower to get vision of the area.
Your army size was also really small. Your mineral and gas count accumulated a lot during some points in the game. For example during your m&tank push you accumulated 500 minerals and 300 gas which you didn't use at all until your push was over (in which, weirdly enough, you did nothing but stand around in the middle of the field, a click and let your marines & tanks get perfectly surrounded so I don't know where your "high skill level" APM went, certainly not into econ).
Instead you just built two more tanks and a few more marines which effectively were of no use to you in the game. You could've used the money to set up several things which would have annihilated your opponent (you had like 800 gas when the "fight" in the middle started which is ridiculous if you're just on two bases), like a better army (god forbid) with Thors or just a very strong follow up push (man, you just destroyed his hatchery and what do you do? sit back and exercise bad macro play).
You also got supply blocked a lot later on in the game. You got blocked then you realized "oh shit I'm supply blocked" and built two supply depots. That stuff just cannot happen.
On September 25 2010 11:31 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:25 torm wrote:On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Maybe i just retard? LOL 1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster. 2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect? 3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily. 4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed. 5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs. If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge. 1. I transfered 8 scvs over at the start of my expansion. (gas took alot) 2. Out of position. I don't really know what to say to this. is it possible not to get caught out of position? only thing that comes to mind is stimming a marine ahead of army. 3. I don't really agree. 4. The push accomplished what i wanted it to. Got me way ahead. Cant really argue there. 5. I never found 4 turrets to be considered over compensating. also to the guy pointing out i should have harassed more. how? I think after watching the game 4 or so more times i think i should have just waited for more bio. But it just seemed very strange it was so hard to follow up with a push attack.
#1 Wow yeah, that was a really pro move. Still, doesn't help that you were way oversaturated at your main the entire game and undersaturated at your expansions for a long freaking time.
#2 see what I wrote on position above
#3 Oh well you might not agree with him but you're wrong. No other way to say it.
#4 Got you "way ahead" eh? You lost 750 minerals and 250 gas, he lost erm... his hatchery and maybe on or two lings? Which is like 400 minerals + a little mining time which made no difference since he had no drones anyways, plus gas is a lot more valuable to Zerg than minerals. That's anything but way ahead. Coupled with your excellent macro skills (lol) this push got you behind if anything.
#5 If you're so worried about how effective you put your resources to use, you should first start learning to use them at all. See the stuff above for what I mean.
On September 25 2010 12:02 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:44 MythicalMage wrote:
Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push .
Well boxer certainly wouldn't run after the Zerg army thinking that his unsieged tanks will roflpwn his lings/blings. He also probably would do a lot more damage during the early game push. If you had rallied some marines to your attacking location, you would have additional marines to support your push, plus if you did anything but focus fire the hatchery while the lings surrounded your entire army you would really be "way ahead" after that fight.
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Frankly dude you're mighty arrogant but the only reason you're even at 1300 is that you're Terran. If you played Zerg, you would be in Plat League. Seriously.
I have the same problem with my real life buddy (Habit, some of you WC3 players will know him), he's at 1300 with Terran, has 0 understanding of the game whatsoever, has very poor macro/micro and generally plays like utter crap, but is at 1300 of diamond because he's Terran.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
You do not play at a high level, and neither do I. I watched the game and you played horrobly. Your push was incredebly stupid and bad. You never sieged your tanks before the battle and when your army consists of a lot of tanks that early in the game it is a insta loss.
Also when you have a lot of tanks it gives you a lot of power, but less mobeletly. You dont attack the faurthes away expanisjon then, as others have pointet out. You attack the closest base. You never killed off the creep with is very important when your bases are that close.
You played bad in almost every way, and yet you complain about imbalence and say you are a top level player.
What you should have done is:
Kill off the creep with a few scans and a little group of units. Then slow push on the high ground and attack downhill. Always have some tanks sieged so you wont be taken by full suprise. Attack downhill and kill off everything. Run the marines back while the tanks kill the banlings and take some muta dmg. Then kill his mutas with your marines and win.
And get more marines. Way to few.
+ Show Spoiler +This reminds me of a pervius troll thread we had in the BW era. Was quite simmilar. Can it be a ghost from the past?
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Pride here is a tip: Go copy a build order or two from a top korean terran early game
The fact you think you are supposed to win by just a-moving around the map with siege marine all game makes me sick. Also, drop the ego, Ryze didn't seem to play at a level above most 1200 zergs.
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On September 25 2010 12:02 FindingPride wrote:
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push .
This is just arrogant man, you're a 1300 terran losing to zerg. To say you micro as well as Boxer is foolish. When banelings come don't stim and run your marines away leaving your tanks to die, split your control groups and marine balls if you're as good as a pro. If not, knowledge of your opponents position before advancing all your tanks unsieged is a must. If you are pushing blind, at least leapfrog your tanks so that you don't get caught with the brunt of your army completely uneffective for the first few seconds of the fight (resulting in their deaths).
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go mech if you cant stop banelings from surrounding you
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I'm not sure if it helps, and I'm really bad player. But In theory, if you sent one marine to the Xel'Naga Tower instead of going next to it, you'd see a big ling/bling force and then you'd siege your tanks before the attack, maximizing the effect. From replay I see your siege tanks siege'd too late. But what do I know, it's just a theory.
And your main was over saturated, but I think everyone already pointed it out.
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