• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:53
CEST 11:53
KST 18:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview7[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)10[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June4Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0
StarCraft 2
General
TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview Updates to The Core/Core Lite for v5.0.16? RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 2026 Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL CK #4 20-21th June Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 530 One For All The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion vespene.gg — BW replays in browser Where is EffOrt? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Relatively freeroll strategies Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread Beyond All Reason Total War: Warhammer 40K Path of Exile
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Does Workplace Frustration D…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8317 users

Smurfs, go to hell. - Page 2

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
December 11 2009 20:36 GMT
#21
On December 12 2009 05:32 fanatacist wrote:
There aren't many smurfs that are obvious reseters.

.: QED most of the people were starting anew, if they were in fact B level players. Like others have said, most of your losses are probably from people who aren't far from your skill level.


Especially that D- protoss with with 250 apm and great shuttlecontrol.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
December 11 2009 20:37 GMT
#22
On December 12 2009 05:36 Catch]22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:32 fanatacist wrote:
There aren't many smurfs that are obvious reseters.

.: QED most of the people were starting anew, if they were in fact B level players. Like others have said, most of your losses are probably from people who aren't far from your skill level.


Especially that D- protoss with with 250 apm and great shuttlecontrol.

Post you match list ... then we will laugh.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
December 11 2009 20:39 GMT
#23
On December 12 2009 05:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:05 Catch]22 wrote: They are worse than the stallers, who after doing some form of successfull harass to bring you down to just one base or something still has to macro up to 200/200 3/3 and take every expand on the map before you finish the game.


This I dont understand, I have 6 expansions and my opponent has 1 expansion max. Still not leaving game. I personally leave games if I am behind right away not stall.

Playing against really bad odds improves your gameplay because you are still microing and macroing (sometimes, I guess), trying to think of ways to slow you down and hold your superior numbers off. I think that improves overall play in itself, so sometimes it is worth doing, especially at lower levels. If you have 6 bases and he has 1, you should be able to end the game in one wave of units. Just do it.

I think it's different if you are facing say Terran and they have you completely contained and you can't do ANYTHING (no harass no hidden expo no anything), then it's time to go. Those people ARE assholes some of the time, but often they are just people who want to be extra safe and don't mind spending more time to practice their timings or their mass base control.
Peace~
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
December 11 2009 20:40 GMT
#24
On December 12 2009 05:36 Catch]22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:32 fanatacist wrote:
There aren't many smurfs that are obvious reseters.

.: QED most of the people were starting anew, if they were in fact B level players. Like others have said, most of your losses are probably from people who aren't far from your skill level.


Especially that D- protoss with with 250 apm and great shuttlecontrol.

Do you understand what most means? Do you understand what post your matchlist means?
Peace~
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
December 11 2009 20:40 GMT
#25
On December 12 2009 05:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:05 Catch]22 wrote: They are worse than the stallers, who after doing some form of successfull harass to bring you down to just one base or something still has to macro up to 200/200 3/3 and take every expand on the map before you finish the game.


This I dont understand, I have 6 expansions and my opponent has 1 expansion max. Still not leaving game. I personally leave games if I am behind right away not stall.

Agreed. People who stay in games when it's clearly over are so annoying.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-11 20:43:22
December 11 2009 20:42 GMT
#26
On December 12 2009 05:39 fanatacist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
On December 12 2009 05:05 Catch]22 wrote: They are worse than the stallers, who after doing some form of successfull harass to bring you down to just one base or something still has to macro up to 200/200 3/3 and take every expand on the map before you finish the game.


This I dont understand, I have 6 expansions and my opponent has 1 expansion max. Still not leaving game. I personally leave games if I am behind right away not stall.

Playing against really bad odds improves your gameplay because you are still microing and macroing (sometimes, I guess), trying to think of ways to slow you down and hold your superior numbers off. I think that improves overall play in itself, so sometimes it is worth doing, especially at lower levels. If you have 6 bases and he has 1, you should be able to end the game in one wave of units. Just do it.

I think it's different if you are facing say Terran and they have you completely contained and you can't do ANYTHING (no harass no hidden expo no anything), then it's time to go. Those people ARE assholes some of the time, but often they are just people who want to be extra safe and don't mind spending more time to practice their timings or their mass base control.


If what they want to do is just practice macroing from a few/bazillion hatcheries, while not doing ANYTHING ELSE, they might aswell do it in single player instead of wasting my time.
Foreplay
Profile Joined May 2008
United States1154 Posts
December 11 2009 20:45 GMT
#27
so much complaining about smurfs lately. get over it
Better than Pokebunny
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-11 20:52:00
December 11 2009 20:46 GMT
#28
On December 12 2009 05:40 sixghost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
On December 12 2009 05:05 Catch]22 wrote: They are worse than the stallers, who after doing some form of successfull harass to bring you down to just one base or something still has to macro up to 200/200 3/3 and take every expand on the map before you finish the game.


This I dont understand, I have 6 expansions and my opponent has 1 expansion max. Still not leaving game. I personally leave games if I am behind right away not stall.

Agreed. People who stay in games when it's clearly over are so annoying.


Agree. I dislike people who lose but lift off or hide pylons all over the place. I also don't like people who sit in the game when it's obvious that they lost. It's not like saying gg 5 minutes later after their base is razed will let them keep their 50 points.

But people aren't out to bash on you. You should be thrilled at having the opportunity to get totally trashed and actually learn from the experience, rather than getting cheap thrills from beating noobs. And if you aren't out of D by now, I doubt that most of the players you got beat by were B level.


On December 12 2009 05:32 Catch]22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:26 Hot_Bid wrote:
complaining about smurfs is a way to say "i lost but it wasn't my fault"

face it, you lost to a lot of Ds


Actually, I always take full responsibility when I lose, I know that I can beat pretty much anyone, except for Flash (since i play T, lol).

The thing that actually gets me ticking is the fact that it's such a huge waste of time for the both of us, I'm not getting better by getting stomped, and the only thing he's getting out of it is that he gets to take out his aggressions over some "mean professor at college that didnt let me answer when I raised my hand" or some shit like that.

At least when I play against the cheesers, I get to practice fending off cheese, so it's not a COMPLETE waste of time.

Imagine taking up boxing, now I'm not saying that I had to go up against Tyson, but sparring against someone who spent a few years is only going to leave me with bruises on my face, and him with bruises on his fists.



"Actually, I always take full responsibility when I lose, I know that I can beat pretty much anyone, except for Flash (since i play T, lol). "

What is this LOL
You're probably really bad, please don't malign Flash's good name by associating it with yours. But, I'm glad you take responsibility for the important things in life.
Sullifam
DURRHURRDERP
Profile Joined May 2006
Canada929 Posts
December 11 2009 20:46 GMT
#29
lol, your concept of "stallers" is backwards I think

if your opponent gains an edge, starts taking the map + getting 200/200 and you're the one who stays in the game (by turtling up off 2 base) you're the staller
"I am an iconic role model for everyone aspiring to be better at League of Legends." - Roffles
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
December 11 2009 20:48 GMT
#30
And I'm going to make one thing clear again to everyone who instantly jumps the "lol mb u just suck nub" or the "you cant handle losing, its just D players". I'm not calling anyone smurf who doesnt have something down the lines of a wierd 15 game win streak up from D-, incredible previous-season-stats, or who actually logged in to their real accounts just to laugh at me after the game.
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
December 11 2009 20:50 GMT
#31
On December 12 2009 05:46 NEwAcC) wrote:
lol, your concept of "stallers" is backwards I think

if your opponent gains an edge, starts taking the map + getting 200/200 and you're the one who stays in the game (by turtling up off 2 base) you're the staller


Now you're just arguing semantics.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
December 11 2009 20:54 GMT
#32
It sounds to me like you don't like ladders. Actually, it sounds like you just don't like SC in general. Maybe you should play another game, pansy.

That's how ladders work.
Everything you're bitching about is just a part of the game.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Chaos
Profile Joined July 2009
United States772 Posts
December 11 2009 20:54 GMT
#33
You should take advantage of the fact that you are playing against better players to improve your game. While it may not seem like you can learn much from getting roflstomped, you could actually take a lot out of the game. I always try to play higher level players when I can because usually they make less mistakes and therefore I can learn more from them.
FruitMarket
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
December 11 2009 20:55 GMT
#34
if you dont like starting at the bottom of a ladder, dont play on a ladder system. simple as that, dont bitch about it. also i agree that people who dont leave after they obviously cant come back are annoying to play against. and, what the fuck is the difference between "SMURFS" and regular players who are at a higher level than you? None to you i should expect, except that you dont know ahead of time their skill level, which shouldnt matter at all unless u decide to go easy against them, which is a bad idea because the only players you as a d+ player should be going easy on are d- players - and good players dont get d-
aka DragOn[NaS]
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-11 20:56:39
December 11 2009 20:55 GMT
#35
It's not "just arguing semantics". You're the one being a dick, leave the game if you lost for christ's sake.

Is this you?

http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/Catch]22.html

Everyone seems to be asking for matchlist, so I just went with what was simple.

It looks like almost everyone that beat you was bad, except thefenix who looks pretty good with 39-10 c+ and super_korean since he's a Korean, which is self-explanatory.

Also, coming up with a 15-0 record from d- isn't exactly progamer status lolol.
Sullifam
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-11 21:00:00
December 11 2009 20:57 GMT
#36
On December 12 2009 05:55 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
if you dont like starting at the bottom of a ladder, dont play on a ladder system. simple as that, dont bitch about it. also i agree that people who dont leave after they obviously cant come back are annoying to play against. and, what the fuck is the difference between "SMURFS" and regular players who are at a higher level than you? None to you i should expect, except that you dont know ahead of time their skill level, which shouldnt matter at all unless u decide to go easy against them, which is a bad idea because the only players you as a d+ player should be going easy on are d- players - and good players dont get d-


*wooosh*

Did you even read about the tankers? Do you even know what a smurf is? A smurf isn't just someone who is a better player than you, its someone who is pretending to be a new player/worse than he really is, in order to get to stomp people.


But yeah, you guys are right, I should be able to view it as a learning oppourtunity, since they make fewer mistakes, I hadn't thought of it that way.

And no, I dont play on the account Catch]22 at the moment.
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
December 11 2009 21:02 GMT
#37
God damn I was wondering how many more people calling you and idiot were needed until you caved.
Peace~
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-11 21:07:22
December 11 2009 21:03 GMT
#38
On December 12 2009 05:57 Catch]22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:55 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
if you dont like starting at the bottom of a ladder, dont play on a ladder system. simple as that, dont bitch about it. also i agree that people who dont leave after they obviously cant come back are annoying to play against. and, what the fuck is the difference between "SMURFS" and regular players who are at a higher level than you? None to you i should expect, except that you dont know ahead of time their skill level, which shouldnt matter at all unless u decide to go easy against them, which is a bad idea because the only players you as a d+ player should be going easy on are d- players - and good players dont get d-


*wooosh*

Did you even read about the tankers? Do you even know what a smurf is? A smurf isn't just someone who is a better player than you, its someone who is pretending to be a new player/worse than he really is, in order to get to stomp people.


But yeah, you guys are right, I should be able to view it as a learning oppourtunity, since they make fewer mistakes, I hadn't thought of it that way.

And no, I dont play on the account Catch]22 at the moment.


Ya I'm sure a guy that's been to b+ on iccup has no idea what a smurf is.

When every reply tells you to shape up and stop being a moron, you're probably doing something wrong.

And yeah, the last game on the account was on december 8, I suppose you stopped using it for the past 3 days.

from urbandictionary:
smurfing

Gaming term: Entering your regular server under a different name so u can see whats going on without being recognized


Verb:
In forum usage, the act of a person using another login name to try to fool the forum populace that he/she is a different person. Usually occurs when the said person was recently blacklisted under a previous name, and is attempting to cover up or hide his/her new identity.
Sullifam
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
December 11 2009 21:07 GMT
#39
On December 12 2009 05:57 Catch]22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:55 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
if you dont like starting at the bottom of a ladder, dont play on a ladder system. simple as that, dont bitch about it. also i agree that people who dont leave after they obviously cant come back are annoying to play against. and, what the fuck is the difference between "SMURFS" and regular players who are at a higher level than you? None to you i should expect, except that you dont know ahead of time their skill level, which shouldnt matter at all unless u decide to go easy against them, which is a bad idea because the only players you as a d+ player should be going easy on are d- players - and good players dont get d-


*wooosh*

Did you even read about the tankers? Do you even know what a smurf is? A smurf isn't just someone who is a better player than you, its someone who is pretending to be a new player/worse than he really is, in order to get to stomp people.


But yeah, you guys are right, I should be able to view it as a learning oppourtunity, since they make fewer mistakes, I hadn't thought of it that way.

And no, I dont play on the account Catch]22 at the moment.

At the moment. So you did, earlier this season. So within the past few months. And you are 57-113. So hypothetically speaking there should be MORE higher ranked players playing you because it is from earlier in the season. Why would you object to it? Oh right, because it becomes painfully obvious that you are a 33% winrate D+ player who wouldn't be able to tell C from A level play.
Peace~
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
December 11 2009 21:09 GMT
#40
On December 12 2009 06:07 fanatacist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2009 05:57 Catch]22 wrote:
On December 12 2009 05:55 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
if you dont like starting at the bottom of a ladder, dont play on a ladder system. simple as that, dont bitch about it. also i agree that people who dont leave after they obviously cant come back are annoying to play against. and, what the fuck is the difference between "SMURFS" and regular players who are at a higher level than you? None to you i should expect, except that you dont know ahead of time their skill level, which shouldnt matter at all unless u decide to go easy against them, which is a bad idea because the only players you as a d+ player should be going easy on are d- players - and good players dont get d-


*wooosh*

Did you even read about the tankers? Do you even know what a smurf is? A smurf isn't just someone who is a better player than you, its someone who is pretending to be a new player/worse than he really is, in order to get to stomp people.


But yeah, you guys are right, I should be able to view it as a learning oppourtunity, since they make fewer mistakes, I hadn't thought of it that way.

And no, I dont play on the account Catch]22 at the moment.

At the moment. So you did, earlier this season. So within the past few months. And you are 57-113. So hypothetically speaking there should be MORE higher ranked players playing you because it is from earlier in the season. Why would you object to it? Oh right, because it becomes painfully obvious that you are a 33% winrate D+ player who wouldn't be able to tell C from A level play.


check the match list, his last two games were played december 8th. Before that, december 4th.

I suppose he improved a lot since then though. If koll can do it, why not catch]22?
Sullifam
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
09:00
KungFu Cup 2026 Week 11
CranKy Ducklings68
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 117
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 30486
Sea 3137
Soulkey 836
BeSt 570
Leta 324
Horang2 315
Shuttle 303
Zeus 261
Mong 102
Killer 93
[ Show more ]
ToSsGirL 88
Aegong 87
EffOrt 76
hero 47
Sharp 41
JYJ 28
Pusan 27
sorry 23
Backho 15
Noble 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
NotJumperer 9
soO 6
Light 0
Dota 2
XaKoH 410
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1914
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King131
Other Games
ceh9526
crisheroes259
Fuzer 104
Happy100
Dewaltoss31
Trikslyr21
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream2688
Other Games
gamesdonequick789
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 26
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP10
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1692
Upcoming Events
Kung Fu Cup
1h 7m
The PondCast
1d
WardiTV Spring Champion…
1d 1h
OSC
1d 3h
OSC
1d 14h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
2 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
3 days
GSL
3 days
Maru vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Reynor
herO vs Lambo
Solar vs Clem
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
3 days
XuanXuan vs Jaystar
Mihu vs Messiah
eOnzErG vs Dewalt
Bonyth vs Jaystar
TerrOr vs Messiah
XuanXuan vs Mihu
eOnzErG vs Jaystar
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
4 days
GSL
4 days
Patches Events
4 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
4 days
Dewalt vs Messiah
Bonyth vs Mihu
TerrOr vs XuanXuan
eOnzErG vs Messiah
Jaystar vs Mihu
Dewalt vs XuanXuan
Bonyth vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-16
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
Murky Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.