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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On January 24 2009 01:58 IdrA wrote:
DESTINATION IS NOT T>Z
NEITHER IS MEDUSA
god damn
idiots letting vultures run by every other game skew the stats to hell and back.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/188_Destination/games/TvZ
Numbers don't lie, people do. 27-11 (71.1%)
Are you getting beat by zergs on this map? Because it's hard to judge S-A class players and call them idiots, zergs can't handle problems terrans are creating for them on a top level for a reason. These zergs are all sick players and they are facing sick terrans and a terran on this map is a fortress.
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Yay! I never doubted Jaedong~
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On January 24 2009 03:07 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2009 02:49 Person514cs wrote:
Dark swarm + lurkers is invincible vs all range attack from mech once is in place...
The hard part is to put swarm lurkers in place. Tanks does zero damage to borrowed units under swarm.. That's a huge factor. This great restrict the movement of Terran. just 4 lurkers at some key spot could be the key to wining. There's a few problems. First of all, like 12 lurkers get reduced to roughly 1 by the time it gets under a dark swarm that's able to hit the terran mech ball through all the tanks and the mines, and the defiler will get killed by tanks after the 1 swarm 99% of the time. One Lurker doesn't really do anything against the mech army, and the T should have like 3-4 bases already when the Zerg gets defilers, so they really aren't in a huge hurry to move out. They should also have a couple of science vessels so they can just irradiate the annoying Lurkers. Then, since you've spent so much of your money on units that die before they can get close, the gigantic push by T will most likely kill you. 15 tanks aren't going to care about 2 lurkers under a swarm.
You should not only build lurkers + defiler ofcouse.. I talking about lurkers + defilers on top of a maxed out army.....
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Destination is T>Z, Z>P, and P>T. It's logical to get rid of it, but it still makes good games, not for TvZ though.
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On January 24 2009 03:22 Person514cs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2009 03:07 Shikyo wrote:On January 24 2009 02:49 Person514cs wrote:
Dark swarm + lurkers is invincible vs all range attack from mech once is in place...
The hard part is to put swarm lurkers in place. Tanks does zero damage to borrowed units under swarm.. That's a huge factor. This great restrict the movement of Terran. just 4 lurkers at some key spot could be the key to wining. There's a few problems. First of all, like 12 lurkers get reduced to roughly 1 by the time it gets under a dark swarm that's able to hit the terran mech ball through all the tanks and the mines, and the defiler will get killed by tanks after the 1 swarm 99% of the time. One Lurker doesn't really do anything against the mech army, and the T should have like 3-4 bases already when the Zerg gets defilers, so they really aren't in a huge hurry to move out. They should also have a couple of science vessels so they can just irradiate the annoying Lurkers. Then, since you've spent so much of your money on units that die before they can get close, the gigantic push by T will most likely kill you. 15 tanks aren't going to care about 2 lurkers under a swarm. You should not only build lurkers + defiler ofcouse.. I talking about lurkers + defilers on top of a maxed out army.....
If your army is maxed out, you can't build any more units. Maxed out army of what? And how were you planning on beating a 3-3 200/200 T with it =P
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Game two,Jaedong was pretty unlucky with his choke break. That tank had 1 hit left when the mutas lost focus and the hydras started melting. Pretty unfortunate. That attack isn't supposed to fail like that or he wouldn't go in. Everything after was just -_-;;... Light made so many tanks. And Jaedong's mass muta switch killed his natural. The drop was simply to buy time but that failed miserably too.
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@Idra: I suppose numbers don't tell the truth, and you probably have a lot more starcraft knowledge than me obviously but how can you say Destination is not a Terran favored map in TvZ? The narrow bridges on expos and nat really destroys the Zerg's option to go all-in Terran nat break, while the map is so easily used by Terrans to go mech.
I'm glad so many people in this thread finally agreeing that Terran mech is imba in TvZ. Especially after the Fantasy variation of mech build has been released, T has been abusing the imba to kill top zergs left and right. I felt like JD has been fighting an uphill battle for a while now. Zergs need mass units to overcome Terran metal ball that has ridiculous upgrades, and for Zerg to have many units, they need a good economy. Sadly the early harrass from Fantasy build and vulture usage really makes it impossible for Z to produce good econ because they sacrifice larvae to produce units instead of drones in early game, which means not-so-good econ late game. Not to mention that nothing can break down cost efficient Terran upgraded army without doing everything like flanking, intense micro, mass units. If you don't want to listen to me, listen to this quote:
On January 23 2009 20:49 Hot_Bid wrote:
the more games that happen like game 2 and game 3 the more likely all TvZs will eventually go the mech way
i mean, the T can make so many mistakes the entire game, like failing to do damage with the vultures, losing valks to scourges, doing nothing with harass, and the zerg makes one error midgame (the drop by jaedong) and he gets absolutely rolled. once you get 100+ supply of 2/1 mech or higher its really hard to fuck up. light even engaged unsieged for 10 seconds before sieging while fighting a group of hydras and still came out way on top.
to those saying plague and swarm are the answer... they really aren't. you rarely ever get a cost effective plague off against mech given how many units you have to sacrifice to get your defiler in position and the cost-effectiveness of the attention spent on the micro, and with spread mines and tanks its hard to use swarm and lurkers too (if you watch calm vs mind, so many of calms lurkers died to splash while running between or already under swarm.
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United States12607 Posts
Watching the first set...I can't help but feel Light could have done so much more with his wraiths. Why did he spend so much time running them around the map instead of killing off all of JD's drones? Is OL hunting really that valuable? There were points when he retreated cloaked wraiths from an OL-less main instead of killing drones.
Sort of pathetic wraith usage from Light, IMO.
Edit: and his decision to retreat from JD's nat at the end of the game?? His base was already entirely fucked, even though there were tons of lurkers up JD's ramp breaking in was his only shot to win the game. He might have been able to do it with dmatrix.
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United States10774 Posts
Ugh wtf light. wait for your damn vessels -_-
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while light is a really cool player
i am very glad jaedong advanced over him
but wtf jaedong blows vs mech
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Braavos36375 Posts
On January 24 2009 05:13 jwd241224 wrote:
Watching the first set...I can't help but feel Light could have done so much more with his wraiths. Why did he spend so much time running them around the map instead of killing off all of JD's drones? Is OL hunting really that valuable? There were points when he retreated cloaked wraiths from an OL-less main instead of killing drones.
Sort of pathetic wraith usage from Light, IMO.
Edit: and his decision to retreat from JD's nat at the end of the game?? His base was already entirely fucked, even though there were tons of lurkers up JD's ramp breaking in was his only shot to win the game. He might have been able to do it with dmatrix.
Don't knock the early running, its far better to run early and miss a few drones than be caught slightly late when the mutas can fire-move behind your wraiths and pick off several. At the time those wraiths were all he had, if they died or were reduced Jaedong could macro up and win. Thus its more important the wraiths stay alive than get extra drone kills. Light probably could've pushed the envelope a little more on staying to kill drones, but imo he was running early most of the time in justifiable fear from fire+move mutas than to go kill overlords. It's like that in ZvZ too, if one player's air force gets caught running while the other player's air force is close enough to be in range, it's an auto loss for the retreating player. Oftentimes you MUST retreat before you see the opponents air returning. Maybe Light was overconservative with his wraiths, but "pathetic" is way too strong a word.
As for the end of the game, I think he just believed (rightly) that he had a better chance securing his natural and remacroing than breaking up the ramp vs 5 lurkers and hydras. 1 base T > 1 base Z if the T can get secured, problem was a) he forgot irradiate (or his facility was killed too early) and b) jaedong had too much stuff.
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On January 24 2009 05:31 dekuschrub wrote:
while light is a really cool player
i am very glad jaedong advanced over him
but wtf jaedong blows vs mech
I dunno if it's really just Jaedong who blows against mech. I think zerg just doesn't have a reliable counter to mech besides crazy expanding.
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I wanna see the VODs. been refreshing on youtube since this morning. Only found the ones with him playing Tazza.
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On January 24 2009 06:09 parad0x wrote:
I wanna see the VODs. been refreshing on youtube since this morning. Only found the ones with him playing Tazza.
nevake has all of them up.
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uh light still has a chance for all the light fanboys out there.
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Light could have 2-0 if he didnt play like shit in the first set.
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On January 24 2009 07:08 anch wrote:
Light could have 2-0 if he didnt play like shit in the first set.
I`m gettin` sick of this...
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On January 24 2009 05:40 Shiznick wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2009 05:31 dekuschrub wrote:
while light is a really cool player
i am very glad jaedong advanced over him
but wtf jaedong blows vs mech I dunno if it's really just Jaedong who blows against mech. I think zerg just doesn't have a reliable counter to mech besides crazy expanding.
Jaedong does suck against mech, he lost to flash before it was a popular build
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On January 24 2009 07:18 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2009 05:40 Shiznick wrote:On January 24 2009 05:31 dekuschrub wrote:
while light is a really cool player
i am very glad jaedong advanced over him
but wtf jaedong blows vs mech I dunno if it's really just Jaedong who blows against mech. I think zerg just doesn't have a reliable counter to mech besides crazy expanding. Jaedong does suck against mech, he lost to flash before it was a popular build
Mech has been around for ages and was just as popular before and/or after Flash's game in Katrina.. Fantasy's mech really made it popular nowadays, so many T users who go mech recently after. If its a less popular build, its more likely your opponent will be caught off guard by it, so its more effective, I don't see why you emphasize the popularity of it if it will make a difference or not. Jaedong does suck against mech but then again, which Zerg has properly destroyed the new mech build? Not even GGplay. I'm not surprised to see many people saying T mech is imba in TvZ on this thread
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It is Imba There is way to meny options for terans and most of them are forgiven exampel a terran bunker rush. Z die if they are cought by a exampel wright rush and if Terran close there choke there is no way a Z can tell what he is up to. But we have to wait and see what Z can do meaby mass mutas and zerglings. But at the moment on Medusa and Destination it is imba.
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EPT
