On January 23 2009 17:45 Zinbiel wrote: Meh, I'm missing out on these games due to school :S Jaedong better not make me come home realizing he once again failed in OSL.
Then the results should be marked as "dangerous spoiler inside".
On January 23 2009 18:17 KreaGata wrote: Yikes, the VLC stream is doing the thing where it just plays for 1 second then freezes. Are there any fixes to this?
try just click it, it should open in wmp, works well for me
If JD doesn't qualify from this group I think I will never watch Starcraft again. But anyway,that's not gonna happen because JD will just destroy everybody. Go JD!
On January 23 2009 18:17 KreaGata wrote: Yikes, the VLC stream is doing the thing where it just plays for 1 second then freezes. Are there any fixes to this?
i had the same problem but now its running smoothly for me
Hm, couldn't get the stream working in VLC or WMP, but YaoYuan is back up and their 800K is running well for me. Thank goodness I could get something up.
I can LR if nobody else wants to, granted my stream keeps up.
On January 23 2009 18:36 KreaGata wrote: Hm, couldn't get the stream working in VLC or WMP, but YaoYuan is back up and their 800K is running well for me. Thank goodness I could get something up.
I can LR if nobody else wants to, granted my stream keeps up.
On January 23 2009 18:36 KreaGata wrote: Hm, couldn't get the stream working in VLC or WMP, but YaoYuan is back up and their 800K is running well for me. Thank goodness I could get something up.
I can LR if nobody else wants to, granted my stream keeps up.
Tazza loses the reaver in JD's main, TZ pulling probes to try and block the incoming hydralisk and zerglings into his main, but JD is in and he is so dead.
Why dont you guys try YY?I always thought it wouldnt work for me till I blocked filtring network traffic in my firewall, then everything started to work.Even with my shitty polish internet.
i'm getting it on yy, it's just super late- I just saw the gg from tazza. Nice game by jaedong, and tazza could have played better (scouting 3 hat hydra before moving out with the reaver?)
On January 23 2009 18:49 arbiter_md wrote: This map sucks. Where is Bizantium?:-)
Tears of the Moon clearly better for the Z than the P, but it had absolutely no impact on that game specifically. Maybe if Tazza hadnt let a ling up his ramp to scout his strategy, maybe if he hadn't lost his reaver in Jaedong's base when he needed to keep it alive the most (either to get some counterplay/kill drones or to bring it back and defend) and then maybe if he hadnt lost his second reaver defending his base then the map would have a chance to affect things.
Also to those that are having a hard time streaming, what I found out is that when you try to connect to the official ogn stream when the games already started, you'll have a hard time getting a good connection. So I connect 15 - 30 minutes before any game and its really smooth.
Okay so Jaedong is teching lair and is frantically trying to break the temples of Tazza before the cannon warps in... andddd they won't break it (theres probably 2-3 left atm)
Jaedong on 3 bases atm adding spire while Tazza is two base going sair reaver with the first sair just about to pop
Tazza adding more cannons to his natural (total 4), and one to his main
Corsair scouts spire tech in Jaedongs main and tazza cancels his 4th cannon and adds another to his main. Jaedong however, is adding two hidden hatches and has produced scourge instead (looking to snipe corsairs)
Day[9] i hope you sent Jaedong your audio thing on how to play vs mech, because i think it'd be amazing to see him play a purely hydraling macro / flank game against metal
It's scary how badly JD dominates lower level pros. It's interesting in a different way than when he plays really well against other great players; here it's completely one-sided, and between the mistakes the other player makes and the way JD takes advantage of them, it really gives the appearance of perfect player vs normal human who doesn't stand a chance. The difference is just startling between the players.
On January 23 2009 19:19 WingSandrockX wrote: Anyone know why some peoples VLC for " mms://liveongame.gscdn.com/L1 " plays for like 1-10sec then freezes?
Its not connected at the optimal speed most of the time when it happens.
On January 23 2009 19:19 WingSandrockX wrote: Anyone know why some peoples VLC for " mms://liveongame.gscdn.com/L1 " plays for like 1-10sec then freezes?
either; - ogn running out of bandwidth - users internet not capable of playing a 800k stream
On January 23 2009 19:33 Nokeboy wrote: Sweeeet, got it to work! Gooooo Jaedong!
lol? what did you do?
When I click it, it puts the link in Firefox and then nothing comes up. Just copy/paste that link and put is in Windows Media Player via the Open URL in File. I think I had copy/pasted wrong link before so it wouldn't load:-P
On January 23 2009 19:33 Nokeboy wrote: Sweeeet, got it to work! Gooooo Jaedong!
lol? what did you do?
I finally got it to work by just copy/pasting the link into the WMP "Open URL". Don't know why it didn't work the first couple times I tried it but it did eventually.
Light is infuriatingly mediocre. I'd rather see him get rolled start to finish than fumble his way through a theoretically sound strategy and lose due to poor control.
On January 23 2009 19:33 Nokeboy wrote: Sweeeet, got it to work! Gooooo Jaedong!
lol? what did you do?
When I click it, it puts the link in Firefox and then nothing comes up. Just copy/paste that link and put is in Windows Media Player via the Open URL in File. I think I had copy/pasted wrong link before so it wouldn't load:-P
On January 23 2009 19:42 gngfn wrote: Light is infuriatingly mediocre. I'd rather see him get rolled start to finish than fumble his way through a theoretically sound strategy and lose due to poor control.
What? There was nothing wrong with light's control, his micro was awesome.
On January 23 2009 19:42 gngfn wrote: Light is infuriatingly mediocre. I'd rather see him get rolled start to finish than fumble his way through a theoretically sound strategy and lose due to poor control.
what the fuck were you watching? Light played really well, just that Jaedong really got him with the fast speed ovies and played along a knife edge the whole game (not producing too many units and falling behind in macro, nor trying to power too hard and getting raped by harass).
uhh, am I the only one who thinks Light forgot Irradiate? How do you get 4 Vessels or whatever and not get Irradiate....
I think Light could have made it up JD's ramp the first time (when JD was doom dropping) if he had Irradiate. He probably had 6 Irradiates in those Vessels (if he actually RESEARCHED it)
On January 23 2009 19:43 sushiman wrote: What? There was nothing wrong with light's control, his micro was awesome.
Hand that many wraiths that early to Lomo (when he was good) or Leta and that game is over much earlier, or at least the Zerg's economy is in far worse shape.
uhh, am I the only one who thinks Light forgot Irradiate? How do you get 4 Vessels or whatever and not get Irradiate....
Yeah, this too. It didn't occur to me at the time but I guess forgetting to research it is a more plausible explanation than thinking that dmatrix would be a more effective tool against the lurkers than Irradiate at the end.
Such a sexy game from both sides. Amazing what a non-FE map will do for the excitement factor. Can't believe Jaedong won that long-ass game off of two hatches.
Plexa, have you changed your mind about Jaedong at all?
On January 23 2009 19:42 gngfn wrote: Light is infuriatingly mediocre. I'd rather see him get rolled start to finish than fumble his way through a theoretically sound strategy and lose due to poor control.
What? There was nothing wrong with light's control, his micro was awesome.
Yeah really, Lights control was damn fine and he came prepared with a great strategy.\
On January 23 2009 19:42 gngfn wrote: Light is infuriatingly mediocre. I'd rather see him get rolled start to finish than fumble his way through a theoretically sound strategy and lose due to poor control.
what the fuck were you watching? Light played really well, just that Jaedong really got him with the fast speed ovies and played along a knife edge the whole game (not producing too many units and falling behind in macro, nor trying to power too hard and getting raped by harass).
Props to Jaedong for a VERY good ZvT
Why even respond to people like that? They're obvious trolls or lack any sound knowledge about the game.
On January 23 2009 19:43 sushiman wrote: What? There was nothing wrong with light's control, his micro was awesome.
Hand that many wraiths that early to Lomo (when he was good) or Leta and that game is over much earlier, or at least the Zerg's economy is in far worse shape.
On January 23 2009 19:42 gngfn wrote: Light is infuriatingly mediocre. I'd rather see him get rolled start to finish than fumble his way through a theoretically sound strategy and lose due to poor control.
what the fuck were you watching? Light played really well, just that Jaedong really got him with the fast speed ovies and played along a knife edge the whole game (not producing too many units and falling behind in macro, nor trying to power too hard and getting raped by harass).
Props to Jaedong for a VERY good ZvT
Why even respond to people like that? They're obvious trolls or lack any sound knowledge about the game.
I dno... I was really tempted not to respond to your post for the reasons you cited =/
that was an amazingly intense game and i'll admit i'm surprised jaedong pulled through so solidly
light's wraith harass was beautiful. he was all over the place, constantly dealing damage, had a number of awesome splits that kept his air force threatening, and it looked like he was gonna be 2 base v 2 base with a successful tech switch.
and then jd starts hacking and denies the expo with 3 lurkers and some excellent muta harass. holds off a double dropship. does his own counterdrop. lsjkdflsdjlf i thought light was way ahead and in a manner of minutes jd flips it all upside down and crushes him soundly.
On January 23 2009 19:33 Nokeboy wrote: Sweeeet, got it to work! Gooooo Jaedong!
lol? what did you do?
When I click it, it puts the link in Firefox and then nothing comes up. Just copy/paste that link and put is in Windows Media Player via the Open URL in File. I think I had copy/pasted wrong link before so it wouldn't load:-P
On January 23 2009 19:46 Pioneer wrote: Why even respond to people like that? They're obvious trolls or lack any sound knowledge about the game.
I dno... I was really tempted not to respond to your post for the reasons you cited =/
Whatever. I'm not trolling. I just think that Light missed an opportunity to do more with those wraiths than he did, especially knowing how much trouble he'd be in later if he left Jaedong alive. Maybe I'll feel differently when I watch the VOD again later.
On January 23 2009 19:46 Pioneer wrote: Why even respond to people like that? They're obvious trolls or lack any sound knowledge about the game.
I dno... I was really tempted not to respond to your post for the reasons you cited =/
Whatever. I'm not trolling. I just think that Light missed an opportunity to do more with those wraiths than he did, especially knowing how much trouble he'd be in later if he left Jaedong alive. Maybe I'll feel differently when I watch the VOD again later.
There wasn't much he could do once those Ovies had speed; and he really was doing everything he could with them
Light walling in again; if his past games say anything its that he will mech on this map....
CC started for Light at natural, addon being added at his main...
vultures coming out of factory, going to harass now... Lair being added at the natuarl of Jaedong.. Jaedong has sunkens at his natural.. should stop the vults imo!
On January 23 2009 20:12 Highways wrote: This game shows why mech is so imba.
Attack move your way to victory.
No, that shows why you need to USE hive tech and keep expanding against Mech
Jaedong played a really really really bad mid-late game =/ involving positioning his army wrong (and doing stupid shit with it like weird drops and mutas flying over turrets) and losing all sense of direction
Seriously...once terran gets to the point where they can move out with their ball, it's impenetrable. No number of hydras, quality of flanks or tech can seem to shut that shit down.
that was pretty fucking shit in the middle there where JD had this nice flank against a tank army with no goliaths, and the things seige up LATE and still blow the shit out of ALL the hydras in one shot.
Tank upgrades are stupid good.
*Edit*
JD made dumb decisions obv - the suicide muta flight and the ineffective hydra drop
On January 23 2009 20:14 PH wrote: Seriously...once terran gets to the point where they can move out with their ball, it's impenetrable. No number of hydras, quality of flanks or tech can seem to shut that shit down.
plague and swarm; except that mech can't heal themselves as easily eh!
The late game mutas was such a waste of money I think. With that 2nd Spire and extra mutas he could've gotten hive tech and a 3rd evo for melee/carapace/ranged and gone plague (maybe?) swarm and mass hydraling =/.
One of the keymoments were definietly the failed hydradrop at Light:s third min only. The two last mines killed 12-14 hydras. And I think he also lost an ovie before dropping the last hydras in it.
Jaedong got tunnel vision and did some stupid shit, lost a ton of units trying to force a wall, and then Light just rolled over him with superior upgrades and numbers. Just like the Flash games on Katrina. Mech's not imba, Jaedong just lost his grip somewhere around the 10 minute mark.
It looked like he fell apart when he lost all those burrowed drones. He had been defending the harass really well up to that point. Maybe he overreacted and thought he had to end it fast after that.
On January 23 2009 20:15 Atrioc wrote: that was pretty fucking shit in the middle there where JD had this nice flank against a tank army with no goliaths, and the things seige up LATE and still blow the shit out of ALL the hydras in one shot.
Tank upgrades are stupid good.
Tanks are a counter unit to hydras. If you see a tank group with no goliaths, tou need to send your fucking mutas in instead of suiciding hydras.
JD repelled the Fantasy build so well than he gone for a suicide atack, using a group of mutas to take down a tank, and lik 20 hdyas to take down 3 scs and 2 goliaths or sg like that. Flying with a fleet of mutalisk all over Light's turrets didnt help either... PLs dont fuck this up
I actually think the drop is a good idea against mech, since it provides a way to counter when you don't want to face the ball. But overall, yes mech seems imba. Maybe map creators can fix this somehow. But overall I think we need the maps to be done per match-up. Say, there will be played these maps if it will be zvt, and these map in case of pvt. This way it would be easier to solve the imbalances.
I think he was trying to find a way to get back in the game when he flew the mutalisks over main. He was really behind after that drop and needed to try and get back in it!
On January 23 2009 20:29 PH wrote: Oh my god...Jaedong is too good...he's seriously so ahead of the fucking curve...his control is just perfect...like omg.
I think nowadays playing bio vs Jaedong = autofail.
On January 23 2009 20:29 PH wrote: Oh my god...Jaedong is too good...he's seriously so ahead of the fucking curve...his control is just perfect...like omg.
I think nowadays playing bio vs Jaedong = autofail.
and like mech v jaedong = autowin <.<
lol? have you watched Jae vs UpMagic? ;ooo Jae just chose the wrong way ^^
On January 23 2009 20:26 fiRe)HappyZerg wrote: Jaedong's play was so poor TT
On January 23 2009 20:26 MacWorld wrote: Great play from Jaedong!
somebody is watching another game T_T
It could definitely be said that Jaedong had poor late-game vs Mech play, so maybe the first comment is talking about that.
However, in all other situations (1st game, early 2nd game, all of 3rd game) he really played quite amazingly.
Yeah, I know Atrioc. But the 2 comments were made in the same minute in the last game of jaedong vs light. I find it very irritating that some people just can't see what's going on in a game and still have to post about it.
On January 23 2009 20:29 PH wrote: Oh my god...Jaedong is too good...he's seriously so ahead of the fucking curve...his control is just perfect...like omg.
I think nowadays playing bio vs Jaedong = autofail.
and like mech v jaedong = autowin <.<
lol? have you watched Jae vs UpMagic? ;ooo Jae just chose the wrong way ^^
lol that was more of a bo win up went for a fast acad to counter the build yarnc did a few days earlier which died to jd's 2/3 hatch muta (forget which) due to lack of gols
Thx but I cant read korean, so anyone can link directly to the games? If their are up?
They're not up yet, but you don't need to be able to read Korean--just look for the letter L in the title and watch them bottom to top. After the L is the round (round 1 was JD vs Tazza, 2 was JD vs Light) and after that number is the set of that round.
Thx but I cant read korean, so anyone can link directly to the games? If their are up?
They're not up yet, but you don't need to be able to read Korean--just look for the letter L in the title and watch them bottom to top. After the L is the round (round 1 was JD vs Tazza, 2 was JD vs Light) and after that number is the set of that round.
Ok. Thanks. I'll guess I could also try to play a little with babelfish.
On January 23 2009 20:42 Itachii wrote: I was really scared after 2nd game, JD's decision were so bad~~ but after all, my love wins.
Ya... Jaedong doesn't look like he could win the OSL just yet... His mid-late decision have been faulty across the board lately (with so many early game/early mid game wins how can you blame him ). Although im sure he'll rise to the occasion and out perform all our expectations
the more games that happen like game 2 and game 3 the more likely all TvZs will eventually go the mech way
i mean, the T can make so many mistakes the entire game, like failing to do damage with the vultures, losing valks to scourges, doing nothing with harass, and the zerg makes one error midgame (the drop by jaedong) and he gets absolutely rolled. once you get 100+ supply of 2/1 mech or higher its really hard to fuck up. light even engaged unsieged for 10 seconds before sieging while fighting a group of hydras and still came out way on top.
to those saying plague and swarm are the answer... they really aren't. you rarely ever get a cost effective plague off against mech given how many units you have to sacrifice to get your defiler in position and the cost-effectiveness of the attention spent on the micro, and with spread mines and tanks its hard to use swarm and lurkers too (if you watch calm vs mind, so many of calms lurkers died to splash while running between or already under swarm.
On January 23 2009 20:42 Itachii wrote: I was really scared after 2nd game, JD's decision were so bad~~ but after all, my love wins.
Ya... Jaedong doesn't look like he could win the OSL just yet... His mid-late decision have been faulty across the board lately (with so many early game/early mid game wins how can you blame him ). Although im sure he'll rise to the occasion and out perform all our expectations
Jaedong's weakness is his impatience to win. Sometimes he just hands Terran mech players wins because he doesn't like waiting 15 minutes to mass up muta/hydra/ling.
Needless to say, I'm kinda worried about his MSL group of death.
On January 23 2009 20:42 Itachii wrote: I was really scared after 2nd game, JD's decision were so bad~~ but after all, my love wins.
Ya... Jaedong doesn't look like he could win the OSL just yet... His mid-late decision have been faulty across the board lately (with so many early game/early mid game wins how can you blame him ). Although im sure he'll rise to the occasion and out perform all our expectations
Jaedong's weakness is his impatience to win. Sometimes he just hands Terran mech players wins because he doesn't like waiting 15 minutes to mass up muta/hydra/ling.
Needless to say, I'm kinda worried about his MSL group of death.
the MSL group E for Jaedong is easier because he only has to practice one matchup, not two (like here, or like the other people in group E have to do). also, since he qualified for OSL Ro16 and no proleague this week, he can surely just focus on the MSL with no real pressure. i think it's really really good for him that he qualified tonight.
On January 23 2009 20:49 Hot_Bid wrote: the more games that happen like game 2 and game 3 the more likely all TvZs will eventually go the mech way
i mean, the T can make so many mistakes the entire game, like failing to do damage with the vultures, losing valks to scourges, doing nothing with harass, and the zerg makes one error midgame (the drop by jaedong) and he gets absolutely rolled. once you get 100+ supply of 2/1 mech or higher its really hard to fuck up. light even engaged unsieged for 10 seconds before sieging while fighting a group of hydras and still came out way on top.
to those saying plague and swarm are the answer... they really aren't. you rarely ever get a cost effective plague off against mech given how many units you have to sacrifice to get your defiler in position and the cost-effectiveness of the attention spent on the micro, and with spread mines and tanks its hard to use swarm and lurkers too (if you watch calm vs mind, so many of calms lurkers died to splash while running between or already under swarm.
Exactly, T can make mistakes and recover, Z can't. And i don't think anyone is gonna use mnm vs JD anymore.
On January 23 2009 20:49 Hot_Bid wrote: the more games that happen like game 2 and game 3 the more likely all TvZs will eventually go the mech way
i mean, the T can make so many mistakes the entire game, like failing to do damage with the vultures, losing valks to scourges, doing nothing with harass, and the zerg makes one error midgame (the drop by jaedong) and he gets absolutely rolled. once you get 100+ supply of 2/1 mech or higher its really hard to fuck up. light even engaged unsieged for 10 seconds before sieging while fighting a group of hydras and still came out way on top.
to those saying plague and swarm are the answer... they really aren't. you rarely ever get a cost effective plague off against mech given how many units you have to sacrifice to get your defiler in position and the cost-effectiveness of the attention spent on the micro, and with spread mines and tanks its hard to use swarm and lurkers too (if you watch calm vs mind, so many of calms lurkers died to splash while running between or already under swarm.
It's not like bioTvZ is much more forgiving of mistakes though. Jaedong lost that tank hydra battle because he wasted like 30 hydras on the wallbreak and the drop. I agree defilers aren't an answer offensively, but lurker/swarm can slow down a mech army indefinitely given the relative lack of vessels in a mech build.
I think Jaedong did two mistakes mid game : 1. His first attack up front with mutas + hydras where he tried to snipe tanks with mutas for fast win but a second tank saves the day and he looses most of his mutas and a big chunk of hydras. Had he got that second tank with mutas he could have done quite a bit of damage. But it was a risky move (obviously as it backfired ...)
2. His failed drop. Looses everything, no damage.
I think timing wise before his first mistake was the time where JD should have powered drones and taken the map. Then all out macro war. And like Day said in his audio, hive play not really necessary more like mass mutas / hydra / ling. Didnt see lings from JD mid game. And even though he was upgrading mutas with two spires didnt see many either (or too late ...)
On January 23 2009 20:42 Itachii wrote: I was really scared after 2nd game, JD's decision were so bad~~ but after all, my love wins.
Ya... Jaedong doesn't look like he could win the OSL just yet... His mid-late decision have been faulty across the board lately (with so many early game/early mid game wins how can you blame him ). Although im sure he'll rise to the occasion and out perform all our expectations
Jaedong's weakness is his impatience to win. Sometimes he just hands Terran mech players wins because he doesn't like waiting 15 minutes to mass up muta/hydra/ling.
Needless to say, I'm kinda worried about his MSL group of death.
the MSL group E for Jaedong is easier because he only has to practice one matchup, not two (like here, or like the other people in group E have to do). also, since he qualified for OSL Ro16 and no proleague this week, he can surely just focus on the MSL with no real pressure. i think it's really really good for him that he qualified tonight.
While that's true he only needs to practice one matchup, I really have to disagree. There isn't much that is harder than getting out of a group with the 3 best TvZ players today.
On January 23 2009 20:42 Itachii wrote: I was really scared after 2nd game, JD's decision were so bad~~ but after all, my love wins.
Ya... Jaedong doesn't look like he could win the OSL just yet... His mid-late decision have been faulty across the board lately (with so many early game/early mid game wins how can you blame him ). Although im sure he'll rise to the occasion and out perform all our expectations
Jaedong's weakness is his impatience to win. Sometimes he just hands Terran mech players wins because he doesn't like waiting 15 minutes to mass up muta/hydra/ling.
Needless to say, I'm kinda worried about his MSL group of death.
the MSL group E for Jaedong is easier because he only has to practice one matchup, not two (like here, or like the other people in group E have to do). also, since he qualified for OSL Ro16 and no proleague this week, he can surely just focus on the MSL with no real pressure. i think it's really really good for him that he qualified tonight.
While that's true he only needs to practice one matchup, I really have to disagree. There isn't much that is harder than getting out of a group with the 3 best TvZ players today.
I think it's harder for Flash, FBH, or Hwasin than it is for Jaedong. It would also be harder for JD if the best PvZ player currently was also in the group, or if Leta was in it. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not as hard as people are making it out to be.
On January 23 2009 20:42 Itachii wrote: I was really scared after 2nd game, JD's decision were so bad~~ but after all, my love wins.
Ya... Jaedong doesn't look like he could win the OSL just yet... His mid-late decision have been faulty across the board lately (with so many early game/early mid game wins how can you blame him ). Although im sure he'll rise to the occasion and out perform all our expectations
Jaedong's weakness is his impatience to win. Sometimes he just hands Terran mech players wins because he doesn't like waiting 15 minutes to mass up muta/hydra/ling.
Needless to say, I'm kinda worried about his MSL group of death.
the MSL group E for Jaedong is easier because he only has to practice one matchup, not two (like here, or like the other people in group E have to do). also, since he qualified for OSL Ro16 and no proleague this week, he can surely just focus on the MSL with no real pressure. i think it's really really good for him that he qualified tonight.
While that's true he only needs to practice one matchup, I really have to disagree. There isn't much that is harder than getting out of a group with the 3 best TvZ players today.
I think it's harder for Flash, FBH, or Hwasin than it is for Jaedong. It would also be harder for JD if the best PvZ player currently was also in the group, or if Leta was in it. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not as hard as people are making it out to be.
And dont forget the imba map of destination >70% TvZ and worse so it was a long time since a Z manage to win on this map. JD fighting a upphill battle. Why they have a such imba map? Is not Fair really.
Fantastic play by Jaedong as ever, great that he made it through.
Game 2 though... Jaedong really needs to cut that over aggression out, it costs him so many games. As Day(9) said all you do versus mech is take the entire map and deny expansions.... don't try shitty drops. JD doesn't seem to have a patience mode.
On January 23 2009 20:42 Itachii wrote: I was really scared after 2nd game, JD's decision were so bad~~ but after all, my love wins.
Ya... Jaedong doesn't look like he could win the OSL just yet... His mid-late decision have been faulty across the board lately (with so many early game/early mid game wins how can you blame him ). Although im sure he'll rise to the occasion and out perform all our expectations
Jaedong's weakness is his impatience to win. Sometimes he just hands Terran mech players wins because he doesn't like waiting 15 minutes to mass up muta/hydra/ling.
Needless to say, I'm kinda worried about his MSL group of death.
the MSL group E for Jaedong is easier because he only has to practice one matchup, not two (like here, or like the other people in group E have to do). also, since he qualified for OSL Ro16 and no proleague this week, he can surely just focus on the MSL with no real pressure. i think it's really really good for him that he qualified tonight.
While that's true he only needs to practice one matchup, I really have to disagree. There isn't much that is harder than getting out of a group with the 3 best TvZ players today.
I think it's harder for Flash, FBH, or Hwasin than it is for Jaedong. It would also be harder for JD if the best PvZ player currently was also in the group, or if Leta was in it. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not as hard as people are making it out to be.
Its hard for them in the general sense that they have to practice two matchups - but the simple fact that Desination is the Game 2 means he is going to have a tougher time than all of them, because I cant see any of those players dropping a TvZ on Destination - meaning if Jaedong doesnt win his first game against Hwasin (on a mech-viable map) he will be fucked.
Dark swarm + lurkers is invincible vs all range attack from mech once is in place... The hard part is to put swarm lurkers in place. Tanks does zero damage to borrowed units under swarm.. That's a huge factor. This great restrict the movement of Terran. just 4 lurkers at some key spot could be the key to wining.
I agree that once its in place and in range, dark swarm and lurker is very powerful, however, getting into position is hard, or even impossible against mech. Your lurkers still have to move into range and during that time period, even under swarm, your lurkers will melt under the fire of a few tanks.
Even if you position lurkers in key spots, tanks could just siege up and take them out, wait until the swarm ends and then kill, or just avoid it all together, wait, and mass even more units. As Day9 said, late game mech is imba .
On January 24 2009 02:49 Person514cs wrote: Dark swarm + lurkers is invincible vs all range attack from mech once is in place... The hard part is to put swarm lurkers in place. Tanks does zero damage to borrowed units under swarm.. That's a huge factor. This great restrict the movement of Terran. just 4 lurkers at some key spot could be the key to wining.
There's a few problems. First of all, like 12 lurkers get reduced to roughly 1 by the time it gets under a dark swarm that's able to hit the terran mech ball through all the tanks and the mines, and the defiler will get killed by tanks after the 1 swarm 99% of the time. One Lurker doesn't really do anything against the mech army, and the T should have like 3-4 bases already when the Zerg gets defilers, so they really aren't in a huge hurry to move out. They should also have a couple of science vessels so they can just irradiate the annoying Lurkers. Then, since you've spent so much of your money on units that die before they can get close, the gigantic push by T will most likely kill you. 15 tanks aren't going to care about 2 lurkers under a swarm.
On January 24 2009 01:58 IdrA wrote: DESTINATION IS NOT T>Z NEITHER IS MEDUSA god damn
idiots letting vultures run by every other game skew the stats to hell and back.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/188_Destination/games/TvZ Numbers don't lie, people do. 27-11 (71.1%) Are you getting beat by zergs on this map? Because it's hard to judge S-A class players and call them idiots, zergs can't handle problems terrans are creating for them on a top level for a reason. These zergs are all sick players and they are facing sick terrans and a terran on this map is a fortress.
On January 24 2009 02:49 Person514cs wrote: Dark swarm + lurkers is invincible vs all range attack from mech once is in place... The hard part is to put swarm lurkers in place. Tanks does zero damage to borrowed units under swarm.. That's a huge factor. This great restrict the movement of Terran. just 4 lurkers at some key spot could be the key to wining.
There's a few problems. First of all, like 12 lurkers get reduced to roughly 1 by the time it gets under a dark swarm that's able to hit the terran mech ball through all the tanks and the mines, and the defiler will get killed by tanks after the 1 swarm 99% of the time. One Lurker doesn't really do anything against the mech army, and the T should have like 3-4 bases already when the Zerg gets defilers, so they really aren't in a huge hurry to move out. They should also have a couple of science vessels so they can just irradiate the annoying Lurkers. Then, since you've spent so much of your money on units that die before they can get close, the gigantic push by T will most likely kill you. 15 tanks aren't going to care about 2 lurkers under a swarm.
You should not only build lurkers + defiler ofcouse.. I talking about lurkers + defilers on top of a maxed out army.....
On January 24 2009 02:49 Person514cs wrote: Dark swarm + lurkers is invincible vs all range attack from mech once is in place... The hard part is to put swarm lurkers in place. Tanks does zero damage to borrowed units under swarm.. That's a huge factor. This great restrict the movement of Terran. just 4 lurkers at some key spot could be the key to wining.
There's a few problems. First of all, like 12 lurkers get reduced to roughly 1 by the time it gets under a dark swarm that's able to hit the terran mech ball through all the tanks and the mines, and the defiler will get killed by tanks after the 1 swarm 99% of the time. One Lurker doesn't really do anything against the mech army, and the T should have like 3-4 bases already when the Zerg gets defilers, so they really aren't in a huge hurry to move out. They should also have a couple of science vessels so they can just irradiate the annoying Lurkers. Then, since you've spent so much of your money on units that die before they can get close, the gigantic push by T will most likely kill you. 15 tanks aren't going to care about 2 lurkers under a swarm.
You should not only build lurkers + defiler ofcouse.. I talking about lurkers + defilers on top of a maxed out army.....
If your army is maxed out, you can't build any more units. Maxed out army of what? And how were you planning on beating a 3-3 200/200 T with it =P
Game two,Jaedong was pretty unlucky with his choke break. That tank had 1 hit left when the mutas lost focus and the hydras started melting. Pretty unfortunate. That attack isn't supposed to fail like that or he wouldn't go in. Everything after was just -_-;;... Light made so many tanks. And Jaedong's mass muta switch killed his natural. The drop was simply to buy time but that failed miserably too.
@Idra: I suppose numbers don't tell the truth, and you probably have a lot more starcraft knowledge than me obviously but how can you say Destination is not a Terran favored map in TvZ? The narrow bridges on expos and nat really destroys the Zerg's option to go all-in Terran nat break, while the map is so easily used by Terrans to go mech.
I'm glad so many people in this thread finally agreeing that Terran mech is imba in TvZ. Especially after the Fantasy variation of mech build has been released, T has been abusing the imba to kill top zergs left and right. I felt like JD has been fighting an uphill battle for a while now. Zergs need mass units to overcome Terran metal ball that has ridiculous upgrades, and for Zerg to have many units, they need a good economy. Sadly the early harrass from Fantasy build and vulture usage really makes it impossible for Z to produce good econ because they sacrifice larvae to produce units instead of drones in early game, which means not-so-good econ late game. Not to mention that nothing can break down cost efficient Terran upgraded army without doing everything like flanking, intense micro, mass units. If you don't want to listen to me, listen to this quote:
On January 23 2009 20:49 Hot_Bid wrote: the more games that happen like game 2 and game 3 the more likely all TvZs will eventually go the mech way
i mean, the T can make so many mistakes the entire game, like failing to do damage with the vultures, losing valks to scourges, doing nothing with harass, and the zerg makes one error midgame (the drop by jaedong) and he gets absolutely rolled. once you get 100+ supply of 2/1 mech or higher its really hard to fuck up. light even engaged unsieged for 10 seconds before sieging while fighting a group of hydras and still came out way on top.
to those saying plague and swarm are the answer... they really aren't. you rarely ever get a cost effective plague off against mech given how many units you have to sacrifice to get your defiler in position and the cost-effectiveness of the attention spent on the micro, and with spread mines and tanks its hard to use swarm and lurkers too (if you watch calm vs mind, so many of calms lurkers died to splash while running between or already under swarm.
Watching the first set...I can't help but feel Light could have done so much more with his wraiths. Why did he spend so much time running them around the map instead of killing off all of JD's drones? Is OL hunting really that valuable? There were points when he retreated cloaked wraiths from an OL-less main instead of killing drones.
Sort of pathetic wraith usage from Light, IMO.
Edit: and his decision to retreat from JD's nat at the end of the game?? His base was already entirely fucked, even though there were tons of lurkers up JD's ramp breaking in was his only shot to win the game. He might have been able to do it with dmatrix.
On January 24 2009 05:13 jwd241224 wrote: Watching the first set...I can't help but feel Light could have done so much more with his wraiths. Why did he spend so much time running them around the map instead of killing off all of JD's drones? Is OL hunting really that valuable? There were points when he retreated cloaked wraiths from an OL-less main instead of killing drones.
Sort of pathetic wraith usage from Light, IMO.
Edit: and his decision to retreat from JD's nat at the end of the game?? His base was already entirely fucked, even though there were tons of lurkers up JD's ramp breaking in was his only shot to win the game. He might have been able to do it with dmatrix.
Don't knock the early running, its far better to run early and miss a few drones than be caught slightly late when the mutas can fire-move behind your wraiths and pick off several. At the time those wraiths were all he had, if they died or were reduced Jaedong could macro up and win. Thus its more important the wraiths stay alive than get extra drone kills. Light probably could've pushed the envelope a little more on staying to kill drones, but imo he was running early most of the time in justifiable fear from fire+move mutas than to go kill overlords. It's like that in ZvZ too, if one player's air force gets caught running while the other player's air force is close enough to be in range, it's an auto loss for the retreating player. Oftentimes you MUST retreat before you see the opponents air returning. Maybe Light was overconservative with his wraiths, but "pathetic" is way too strong a word.
As for the end of the game, I think he just believed (rightly) that he had a better chance securing his natural and remacroing than breaking up the ramp vs 5 lurkers and hydras. 1 base T > 1 base Z if the T can get secured, problem was a) he forgot irradiate (or his facility was killed too early) and b) jaedong had too much stuff.
On January 24 2009 06:09 parad0x wrote: I wanna see the VODs. been refreshing on youtube since this morning. Only found the ones with him playing Tazza.
On January 24 2009 05:31 dekuschrub wrote: while light is a really cool player
i am very glad jaedong advanced over him
but wtf jaedong blows vs mech
I dunno if it's really just Jaedong who blows against mech. I think zerg just doesn't have a reliable counter to mech besides crazy expanding.
Jaedong does suck against mech, he lost to flash before it was a popular build
Mech has been around for ages and was just as popular before and/or after Flash's game in Katrina.. Fantasy's mech really made it popular nowadays, so many T users who go mech recently after. If its a less popular build, its more likely your opponent will be caught off guard by it, so its more effective, I don't see why you emphasize the popularity of it if it will make a difference or not. Jaedong does suck against mech but then again, which Zerg has properly destroyed the new mech build? Not even GGplay. I'm not surprised to see many people saying T mech is imba in TvZ on this thread
It is Imba There is way to meny options for terans and most of them are forgiven exampel a terran bunker rush. Z die if they are cought by a exampel wright rush and if Terran close there choke there is no way a Z can tell what he is up to. But we have to wait and see what Z can do meaby mass mutas and zerglings. But at the moment on Medusa and Destination it is imba.
mecha vs zerg is not imba at all. Zerg can expand every where mid game and there is nothing terran can do exept vulture raid, but they keep the dumb agressive style. And i like the comparison here: losing few valks and vultures (wich still killed some drones) = many mistakes, losing 30++ hydra for absolutly nothing ( A move and fail drop) = one error.
The sadest thing is I'm a zerg user and Jaedong is my favorite player. I'm so disapointed when he plays like this.
Light is seriously getting better every time he plays.. I wish he had beaten JD and sent JD to the backho tournament to ensure there is 0 chance of Bisu making it out. Oh well.
I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires, you have the failed natural break where he lost all his mutas and most of his his hydras in the beginning, you have the big drop into mined territory where again he lost a lot of hydras and 5-6 overlords and did no damage. He later suicided another control group of mutas directly into a group of turrets without doing damage.
The fact that he came as close as he did while playing like that is amazing.
JD has said he played bad because he thought he won on medusa and didn't expect Light to make 900000 turrets and turtle the shit out. So he didn't know what to do
On January 24 2009 13:07 SimonB wrote: I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires, you have the failed natural break where he lost all his mutas and most of his his hydras in the beginning, you have the big drop into mined territory where again he lost a lot of hydras and 5-6 overlords and did no damage. He later suicided another control group of mutas directly into a group of turrets without doing damage.
The fact that he came as close as he did while playing like that is amazing.
Your post is going to do what? You are just as biased as the other people in this thread and this will create endless flaming. You do realize he got two spires on purpose, right? Or is this another example of playing bad?
Obviously, he made mistakes, but that doesn't disprove or support mech's effectiveness. I hear people generalize how races are playing bad or good, but it's not true. It's more dependent on maps; however, even this time maps are not so much the cause. The recent metagame has shifted and until zergs find a solid counter against mech, they will continue to get shafted again and again; they aren't playing worse, it's just that they don't have a solid plan.
A good example is the 4Gate 2Archon build that raped the life out of zergs until they made semi-walls with their natural which completely shifted the balance of the MU. It's not that zergs suddenly 'became' good overnight, it's that they found a good build against a new one.
I dunno why u guys keep answering to those haters, they are clearly haters Sayin` shit like Light played awful in the first game, and etc..and then JD played terrible in the second one...There are haters that forever will affirm that all the opponents that JD will beat are easy. It`s no point in arguing with them
On January 24 2009 13:07 SimonB wrote: I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires, you have the failed natural break where he lost all his mutas and most of his his hydras in the beginning, you have the big drop into mined territory where again he lost a lot of hydras and 5-6 overlords and did no damage. He later suicided another control group of mutas directly into a group of turrets without doing damage.
The fact that he came as close as he did while playing like that is amazing.
Yes and that was mistakes and he lose. T can just bunker and the fact that they only need 200apm while Z have to have 400> to win is at that point imba.
While Z are doing good v P they are doing so bad against Mech build. The argument that Z are playing bad dont hold. A B-class Z can beat any A-class P player at random encounters. Thats is not true when when it comes to beat a A-class T like Flash and Leta. They havent lose with a mech build to a b - class player.
On January 24 2009 13:07 SimonB wrote: I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires, you have the failed natural break where he lost all his mutas and most of his his hydras in the beginning, you have the big drop into mined territory where again he lost a lot of hydras and 5-6 overlords and did no damage. He later suicided another control group of mutas directly into a group of turrets without doing damage.
The fact that he came as close as he did while playing like that is amazing.
Yes and that was mistakes and he lose. T can just bunker and the fact that they only need 200apm while Z have to have 400> to win is at that point imba.
I'm pretty damn sure all top (and even most amateur) Korean Terrans have 300-400 apm, so you can stop spewing crap. It's pretty common knowledge that APM generally goes P<Z<T.
I believe that Light lost the first game because he switched down to marines instead of geting an armory for a couple of valkyries and then going goliaths/tank mech build. Think about it, after screwing up JD's economy and forcing him to stay at two bases, a fantasy mech follow up would probably destroy JD. But it was Jaedong that was playing. We can never count the best players out until the very end. I also thought it was funny how Light had a figting chance when doing sort of mech builds but got completly owned on the match that he tried "standard" MnM. Sure it looks like Jaedong has perfected anti MnM play. Maybe he will perfect anti mech play too?
yeah the first game was really awesome. it's amazing too see how fast they can split a group of wraith to move in 5 different directions (i guess they are not hotkeyed). clearly the most entertaining tvz i saw lately
On January 25 2009 01:26 sh02hp0869 wrote: Can enybody recall where Z have beaten a Mech eith 3bases? Not it hasent happen and it wont
Haha who are you, the oracle of starcraft strategy?
Z will do fine against mech, besides Jaedong isn't exactly known for his strategical brilliance. He needs a solid gameplan before the match even starts. I think players like July will perform a lot better against mech.
Seems like JD lost because he went for a timing attack but fucked it up (he seems to like going for timing attacks vs mech as opposed to long drawn out games).
On January 24 2009 13:07 SimonB wrote: I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires....
I thought two Spires was relatively popular in some variants of anti-mech play because it allows you to, you know, upgrade your Mutalisks faster. It probably wasn't a mistake?
I haven't watched the game yet but are you sure this isn't the case?
On January 24 2009 13:07 SimonB wrote: I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires....
I thought two Spires was relatively popular in some variants of anti-mech play because it allows you to, you know, upgrade your Mutalisks faster. It probably wasn't a mistake?
I haven't watched the game yet but are you sure this isn't the case?
it was a mistake.... commentators said it probably was for one. case 2... he didnt have hive yet to upgrade further
On January 25 2009 09:46 Avidkeystamper wrote: I'm a little confused, it was probably for one what? And what do you mean by case 2?
Whats the point of getting fast upgrades if you aren't going to go hive to get the 3/3. Unless he was going for a fast 2/2 to stay at for a while, he could have upgraded off of one spire.
What I don't get is why he went for mutas. I know its supposed to be the counter for mech builds, but that was back in the stone ages of the game. With the amount of turrets terrans put up now, the quicker upgrades making goliaths a lot stronger, terran repair micro on goliaths helping conserve numbers, and the level of macro in pumping goliaths have all made mutas an outdated counter, in of itself.
edit: not to mention valkyries being utilized nowadays, too.
I think the double spire was also a mistake too. But the point is, Jaedong did panick and make mistakes but that wasn't enough to change the outcome of the game. The reason is, mech is unproportionally strong against Z in TvZ
you people are fucking stupid if i go mass wraith vs goon zeal temp tvp and get raped does that mean p>t? going unsupported mass hydra ling vs anything except pure goliath mech is essentially the same situation. hell he coulda won anyway had he not thrown away god knows how many units on dumb attacks and drops.
mech isnt even very good, much less imbalanced, zergs just play dumb as fuck vs it. at least jaedong was prepared for the vulture runby unlike all the other idiots.
On January 25 2009 11:33 AzureEye wrote: I think the double spire was also a mistake too. But the point is, Jaedong did panick and make mistakes but that wasn't enough to change the outcome of the game. The reason is, mech is unproportionally strong against Z in TvZ
No, Zerg players just aren't reacting well against it at the moment.
On January 25 2009 11:39 IdrA wrote: you people are fucking stupid if i go mass wraith vs goon zeal temp tvp and get raped does that mean p>t? going unsupported mass hydra ling vs anything except pure goliath mech is essentially the same situation. hell he coulda won anyway had he not thrown away god knows how many units on dumb attacks and drops.
mech isnt even very good, much less imbalanced, zergs just play dumb as fuck vs it. at least jaedong was prepared for the vulture runby unlike all the other idiots.
Could you enlighten us on how you believe mech is best countered? Is Day9s audiocast on the money with what most koreans do successfully(at least in your games)?
i dunno i havent listened to it the best way to deal with it is to building wall off vulture runbys then go muta with carapace grades, mass expo and mass muta (terran cant put any pressure at all on you besides the vultures early so you're free to power and expo with every mineral not put into mutas. a handful of hydras helps vs the vultures early on as well, and theyre necessary on maps like desti where the nat cant be completely walled. if terran tries to move out at all the moment hes out of his natural you counter his main with all your mutas, pull out the moment his goliaths get back, if he doesnt come back then you destroy his main and keep pumping mutas/sunken everywhere/keep expoing and running away from his army until you have enough mutas to kill it.
if terran doesnt get aggressive you should start mixing in hydra when you're running 4-5 full bases and have 3+ groups of mutas, but dont cut muta production entirely. its also possible to go hive tech but just taking the entire map and mass hydra muta hardcore seems the most effective. if they try to just keep turtling and taking expos you probably will have to go hive to break them, but they have to invest so much in turret defense and theyre so immobile that theyre never gonna be able to touch your army size unless you engage in a bad position (there is no bad position to engage in on medusa, but be careful of the bridges n stuff on desti)
and never ever ever attack him, ever. you'll only waste units (there are situations where you can do an early timing break, like jaedong vs flash on desti, but on the whole you want to avoid being put into an allin situation like that as its a far lower % than playing the way i suggested). you wait for him to come to you, and even then you delay as long as possible.
I really hope the zergs can block mech, it seems that there's a strategy out already and they're not doing it. I like wraiths, but mech is boring as hell compared to bio and it's too similar to TvP anyways.
On January 24 2009 13:07 SimonB wrote: I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires, you have the failed natural break where he lost all his mutas and most of his his hydras in the beginning, you have the big drop into mined territory where again he lost a lot of hydras and 5-6 overlords and did no damage. He later suicided another control group of mutas directly into a group of turrets without doing damage.
The fact that he came as close as he did while playing like that is amazing.
Your post is going to do what? You are just as biased as the other people in this thread and this will create endless flaming. You do realize he got two spires on purpose, right? Or is this another example of playing bad?
But... you're more wrong...
The two spires weren't on purpose. Jaedong desperately needed hive. He made a mistake, and quickly made the Queen's nest as soon as he realized he couldn't build Hive.
Like someone else mentioned, you need hive to further upgrade the mutalisks. Jaedong was at 2/2 already.
On January 24 2009 13:07 SimonB wrote: I finally watched the vod of the second set on Medusa with Light and JD.
Just want to say: All I heard yesterday was how imba Terran mech was, that Terran can make mistakes, but Zerg can't make any mistakes.
Shut the hell up, please. That was a TERRIBLE performance by JD. I've seen so many ridiculous mistakes. You have two spires, you have the failed natural break where he lost all his mutas and most of his his hydras in the beginning, you have the big drop into mined territory where again he lost a lot of hydras and 5-6 overlords and did no damage. He later suicided another control group of mutas directly into a group of turrets without doing damage.
The fact that he came as close as he did while playing like that is amazing.
Your post is going to do what? You are just as biased as the other people in this thread and this will create endless flaming. You do realize he got two spires on purpose, right? Or is this another example of playing bad?
But... you're more wrong...
The two spires weren't on purpose. Jaedong desperately needed hive. He made a mistake, and quickly made the Queen's nest as soon as he realized he couldn't build Hive.
Like someone else mentioned, you need hive to further upgrade the mutalisks. Jaedong was at 2/2 already.
I know I'm wrong about the 2 spires, it's been said three times before. Thank you for the effort for pointing that out though. My post didn't say he was wrong, only biased, I don't think I'm wrong about that.
On January 27 2009 06:53 Azrael1111 wrote: Idra what are your thoughts on how to deal with valkeries or how they pan out?
valkryies are terrible, they cant be microed while firing because they refuse to move until they finish their 8 missile volley and they die to 2 scourge despite costing an ungodly amount of money. this means the cloud of mutas just flies in and surrounds you and all your valkryies die while you desperately try to move them back to clump the mutas. valks are very very rarely used anymore, vessels are significantly better, despite the gas cost.
i dunno we dont have any zergs in osl so ive never tvzed on there 4 player maps generally arent as well suited since it becomes alot easier for zergs to expo all over the place and constantly counter and run around. fast 3rd gas is good for mech but the one on return of the king doesnt look particularly defensible. light played that game fucking horribly so dont try to draw any conclusions off of it.
I don't know why Idra is repeatedly insulting all the top programer zergs. They would all brutally rape him in any game. Theory is just talk, the result of the games are decided by execution. We don't live in What-If-Land. Mech is simply easier to execute and get results, probably because of high HP and damage mech units. The TvZ equivalent of PvT 1a2a3a has arrived.
Idra, I followed your advice in this thread last night on a D-D+ noob game last night and it worked out really well. Mutas really take advantage of how clumsy goliaths are, and I was able to deny him taking a third four times and I won almost purely through economic starvation.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/pachi/front/batoo_starleague.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1232672889_1.jpg)
Jaedong vs 
Tazza
Light vs Winner
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1201498718_1.jpg)
it worked well for me. 
![[image loading]](http://www.tui.co.nz/emailtemp/tuimato_sml.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i37.tinypic.com/21oy1hk.png)
