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so its skyhigh vs best and flash vs. bisu in BO3's?
sounds like best vs flash then.... as hot as bisu is looking ive always believe his PvT to be his weakest m/u and flash's TvP his strong point. bisu's recent wins vs. hwasin FBH iris considering iris is the only 1 of the 3 with a decent TvP
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On December 14 2008 20:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2008 20:10 ForVengeance wrote:
I refuse to believe that there is nothing Zergs can do to beat top protoss. I refuse. Queens and ensnare?
I don't think that zergs will sunk so low ... to use queens effectively ever 
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On May 19 2005 11:38 Carnac wrote:
OnGameNet 'IOPS' Starleague
December 2004 - March 2005
Players
- Seeded from 'Ever' Starleague 2004: 1. iloveoov(T), 2. Boxer(T), 3. Reach(P)
- Seeded as Challenge League Winner: Chojja(Z)
- Qualified through 'Cyon' Dual Tournament:
(Z) Jju, GoRush, Saferzerg, Julyzerg, Max, Clon, Yellow
(T) Sync, Goodfriend, NaDa, Midas, Doggi
Total of 1 Protoss, 8 Zerg and 7 Terran players
Group Selection
A) iloveoov --> Clon(1) --> Julyzerg(8) -> NaDa(9)
B) BoxeR --> Doggi(2) --> YellOw(7) --> Max(10)
C) Reach --> Jju(3) --> Midas(6) --> Saferzerg(11)
D) Chojja --> GoodFriend(4) --> Sync(5) --> GoRush(12)
If this happens, and a zerg has the position of Reach you may speak about imbalance.
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No, you self satisfied clown, pro gaming doesn't have to live up to what you set as the minimum bar for imbalance in order for someone to talk about it.
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On December 15 2008 02:06 Guybrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2005 11:38 Carnac wrote:
OnGameNet 'IOPS' Starleague
December 2004 - March 2005
Players
- Seeded from 'Ever' Starleague 2004: 1. iloveoov(T), 2. Boxer(T), 3. Reach(P)
- Seeded as Challenge League Winner: Chojja(Z)
- Qualified through 'Cyon' Dual Tournament:
(Z) Jju, GoRush, Saferzerg, Julyzerg, Max, Clon, Yellow
(T) Sync, Goodfriend, NaDa, Midas, Doggi
Total of 1 Protoss, 8 Zerg and 7 Terran players
Group Selection
A) iloveoov --> Clon(1) --> Julyzerg(8) -> NaDa(9)
B) BoxeR --> Doggi(2) --> YellOw(7) --> Max(10)
C) Reach --> Jju(3) --> Midas(6) --> Saferzerg(11)
D) Chojja --> GoodFriend(4) --> Sync(5) --> GoRush(12)
If this happens, and a zerg has the position of Reach you may speak about imbalance.
GOMTV Averatec-Intel Classic S2
ClubDay MSL
Except that there are like no Terrans either, and that there are 0 Zergs doing well rather than 1 Protoss. *yawn*
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Im listening to the matches now, and im quite pleased. Entertaining so far, but lilsusie is also giving her thoughts on the game. Typical she just says XX is in a bad state, but she actually commented on some strategy for these games. She is improving! 
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
Has nothing to do with evolution of the game. Luxury won wcg vs Stork and JD, Savior won blizzcon vs Jangbi, Forgg, Nada.
In korean leagues though it's 1-2 zergs in top16 at best lately. It's all maps, it is one single reason.
p.s. Oh and Bisu is so much better than Hoejja on top of that. No chance.
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Ugh. I hope the maps change for the next round or Flash is going to get smashed by Bisu. His "I'm so imbalanced that I can play on any map no matter how imbalanced" streak is over and even though I know his TvP> Bisu's PvT, on maps like Requiem and Medusa Flash will get rolled.
Best map pool for Flash in the next round would be like Andromeda, Chupung-Ryeong, and Destination (or Colosseum but I hate that map.. lol). All those maps are balanced well enough to allow an even playing field.
EDIT: GO FLASH THE DRAGON SLAYERRRRR WOOOOO
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On December 15 2008 01:05 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2008 22:32 Legume wrote:On December 14 2008 20:07 freelander wrote:On December 14 2008 20:04 Yaqoob wrote:On December 14 2008 20:01 Proposal wrote:
its true though, P>Z and P>T (always has been) Only someone who knows nothing abotu progaming or starcraft in general would say a complety stupid and dumb statement? Before Bisu most Protoss were getting raped by Zergs. JulyZerg/Savior/Chojja with their high ZvP stats like 70% and above? If you don't know what you are talking about, then why talk? why are you flaming.. can't you see that last msl was protoss fest, this gsl is a protoss fest? can't you see that RO16 has 12 protoss players and 4 terrans? zerg is majorly fucked because zvt always has been a disadvantageous matchup and now zvp is getting into the same category.r you can't just say that zergs are losing to protoss, thus protoss are imbalanced. why don't you think of some strategy for the zergs to step up their game instead of trolling on the forums. the main reason that protoss are doing so well against zerg is through the Revolution of Bisu that popularized the Forge+Fast-Exp into Corsair combo. It's not really the maps. There's plenty of open space on all of the maps, so zerg just needs to find a strategy that can deal with the protoss metagame right now. you probably need some reading comprehension exercise, because 1 i didn't write about maps 2 i didn't write protoss is imbalanced 3 i wasn't trolling you don't have to write for me why protoss is doing well, because you should think about that i know at least as much about the game as you.
I was more responding in general to the people who keep saying that PvZ is imba. I just chose to quote your post because that was the last one I saw.
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...Flash is no dragon slayer.
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Hoejja really impressed me in those games, despite the defeat being so categorical.
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9070 Posts
On December 15 2008 01:37 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 00:43 ahole-surprise wrote:Pro gaming is really starting to fucking suck. This game is a bad example because Bisu is the best PvZ'er ever and Hoejja is a rookie but Zergs haven't been able to beat Protoss for the past few months on any maps. This kind of imbalance is bad for the game. The defense that "no protoss could ever win vs Zerg before Bisu" is not only irrelevant, it's untrue. When Z>P, it was only July and Savior. Those two owned every Protoss so it seemed like Protoss just could not win. But it was only those two, and they weren't owning at the same time. To give you an example, Savior beat Reach in the UZOO 2005 MSL, and Choejja lost to Reach in the semi finals. Regardless, you didn't have DIFFERENT zergs winning consecutive starleagues and having an all Zerg semifinal. It never happened. It's not like now, where the top 4 or 5 protoss players are all owning Zerg (except Best ). Whereas with Savior and July, it was because they were simply the most skilled during their respective times, which is more easy to believe since they dominated at different times, it's hard to defend that all top 5 Protoss players right now are just owning Zerg simply because they are the most skilled. I've seen this defense many times, and it's bull. The maps and metagame are simply imbalanced and if this continues, Starcraft will soon die. I agree. I think the maps should take the most blame, though. But what do you want to do about it? Korean maps are the "law". When they decide to ignore balance in favor of some other goals like how exotic gameplay is on a particular map, then it's no wonder that we have stats where P wins like 65% of the time vs. both T and Z now. So Z now has 2 hard matchups, T has 1, P has 0. And how would you want to prove an imbalance? It's just not possible... all you can do is look at map statistics. Most players will refuse even the thought of SC being slightly imbalanced (even though such a slight imbalance could very well appear even after 10 years because skill level is steadily rising a little bit and at some point one race might be so skilled that they'll overcome all previous weaknesses and start to dominate without the other races having an answer to that - basically like a balance flaw that has always existed but players weren't yet good enough to exploit it...), and most players will also defend the quality of the Korean maps because pro teams test them shortly (but probably not long enough...). Well it's time for SC2 anyway.
totally untrue. most of the new maps are taken as zerg maps by definition. medusa and andromeda are good example, when those two came up the coaches kept sending zerg on both of them in the PL. and this actually makes sense, since it takes awhile before toss and terran could figure out how to play on a given map. the thing is you could always overpool on every map in any MU but you cant 14 CC or open with 2 gates every time. Dont blame the maps,just a few weeks ago JD was doing fine no matter what. Just admit that the all the zerg players suck atm, that the strategy patterns are old, that julys all-in hydra pushes in ZvP dont work as well as they used to, cause the protoss players actually evolved and learned how to use the positives of playing this race. The fact is that in the past 2 years absolutely nothing has changed in terms of zergs playing style.
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On December 15 2008 03:34 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Hoejja really impressed me in those games, despite the defeat being so categorical.
Yeah the maps didn't help him either. No doubt Bisu would have taken it on more balanced maps, but Hoejja is someone to look out for. I am a fan and isn't he in OSL and MSL? Or just one of them? Anyways, hopefully he keeps doing well.
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On December 15 2008 03:42 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 01:37 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On December 15 2008 00:43 ahole-surprise wrote:Pro gaming is really starting to fucking suck. This game is a bad example because Bisu is the best PvZ'er ever and Hoejja is a rookie but Zergs haven't been able to beat Protoss for the past few months on any maps. This kind of imbalance is bad for the game. The defense that "no protoss could ever win vs Zerg before Bisu" is not only irrelevant, it's untrue. When Z>P, it was only July and Savior. Those two owned every Protoss so it seemed like Protoss just could not win. But it was only those two, and they weren't owning at the same time. To give you an example, Savior beat Reach in the UZOO 2005 MSL, and Choejja lost to Reach in the semi finals. Regardless, you didn't have DIFFERENT zergs winning consecutive starleagues and having an all Zerg semifinal. It never happened. It's not like now, where the top 4 or 5 protoss players are all owning Zerg (except Best ). Whereas with Savior and July, it was because they were simply the most skilled during their respective times, which is more easy to believe since they dominated at different times, it's hard to defend that all top 5 Protoss players right now are just owning Zerg simply because they are the most skilled. I've seen this defense many times, and it's bull. The maps and metagame are simply imbalanced and if this continues, Starcraft will soon die. I agree. I think the maps should take the most blame, though. But what do you want to do about it? Korean maps are the "law". When they decide to ignore balance in favor of some other goals like how exotic gameplay is on a particular map, then it's no wonder that we have stats where P wins like 65% of the time vs. both T and Z now. So Z now has 2 hard matchups, T has 1, P has 0. And how would you want to prove an imbalance? It's just not possible... all you can do is look at map statistics. Most players will refuse even the thought of SC being slightly imbalanced (even though such a slight imbalance could very well appear even after 10 years because skill level is steadily rising a little bit and at some point one race might be so skilled that they'll overcome all previous weaknesses and start to dominate without the other races having an answer to that - basically like a balance flaw that has always existed but players weren't yet good enough to exploit it...), and most players will also defend the quality of the Korean maps because pro teams test them shortly (but probably not long enough...). Well it's time for SC2 anyway. totally untrue. most of the new maps are taken as zerg maps by definition. medusa and andromeda are good example, when those two came up the coaches kept sending zerg on both of them in the PL. and this actually makes sense, since it takes awhile before toss and terran could figure out how to play on a given map. the thing is you could always overpool on every map in any MU but you cant 14 CC or open with 2 gates every time. Dont blame the maps,just a few weeks ago JD was doing fine no matter what. Just admit that the all the zerg players suck atm, that the strategy patterns are old, that julys all-in hydra pushes in ZvP dont work as well as they used to, cause the protoss players actually evolved and learned how to use the positives of playing this race. The fact is that in the past 2 years absolutely nothing has changed in terms of zergs playing style.
Lol alright. So it's more likely that every single zerg player in progaming now sucks all of a sudden, than it is that the maps are just a little anti zerg.
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9070 Posts
On December 15 2008 03:52 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 03:42 disciple wrote:On December 15 2008 01:37 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On December 15 2008 00:43 ahole-surprise wrote:Pro gaming is really starting to fucking suck. This game is a bad example because Bisu is the best PvZ'er ever and Hoejja is a rookie but Zergs haven't been able to beat Protoss for the past few months on any maps. This kind of imbalance is bad for the game. The defense that "no protoss could ever win vs Zerg before Bisu" is not only irrelevant, it's untrue. When Z>P, it was only July and Savior. Those two owned every Protoss so it seemed like Protoss just could not win. But it was only those two, and they weren't owning at the same time. To give you an example, Savior beat Reach in the UZOO 2005 MSL, and Choejja lost to Reach in the semi finals. Regardless, you didn't have DIFFERENT zergs winning consecutive starleagues and having an all Zerg semifinal. It never happened. It's not like now, where the top 4 or 5 protoss players are all owning Zerg (except Best ). Whereas with Savior and July, it was because they were simply the most skilled during their respective times, which is more easy to believe since they dominated at different times, it's hard to defend that all top 5 Protoss players right now are just owning Zerg simply because they are the most skilled. I've seen this defense many times, and it's bull. The maps and metagame are simply imbalanced and if this continues, Starcraft will soon die. I agree. I think the maps should take the most blame, though. But what do you want to do about it? Korean maps are the "law". When they decide to ignore balance in favor of some other goals like how exotic gameplay is on a particular map, then it's no wonder that we have stats where P wins like 65% of the time vs. both T and Z now. So Z now has 2 hard matchups, T has 1, P has 0. And how would you want to prove an imbalance? It's just not possible... all you can do is look at map statistics. Most players will refuse even the thought of SC being slightly imbalanced (even though such a slight imbalance could very well appear even after 10 years because skill level is steadily rising a little bit and at some point one race might be so skilled that they'll overcome all previous weaknesses and start to dominate without the other races having an answer to that - basically like a balance flaw that has always existed but players weren't yet good enough to exploit it...), and most players will also defend the quality of the Korean maps because pro teams test them shortly (but probably not long enough...). Well it's time for SC2 anyway. totally untrue. most of the new maps are taken as zerg maps by definition. medusa and andromeda are good example, when those two came up the coaches kept sending zerg on both of them in the PL. and this actually makes sense, since it takes awhile before toss and terran could figure out how to play on a given map. the thing is you could always overpool on every map in any MU but you cant 14 CC or open with 2 gates every time. Dont blame the maps,just a few weeks ago JD was doing fine no matter what. Just admit that the all the zerg players suck atm, that the strategy patterns are old, that julys all-in hydra pushes in ZvP dont work as well as they used to, cause the protoss players actually evolved and learned how to use the positives of playing this race. The fact is that in the past 2 years absolutely nothing has changed in terms of zergs playing style. Lol alright. So it's more likely that every single zerg player in progaming now sucks all of a sudden, than it is that the maps are just a little anti zerg.
part they all sucks, part toss players are playing better
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On December 15 2008 03:42 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 03:34 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Hoejja really impressed me in those games, despite the defeat being so categorical. Yeah the maps didn't help him either. No doubt Bisu would have taken it on more balanced maps, but Hoejja is someone to look out for. I am a fan and isn't he in OSL and MSL? Or just one of them? Anyways, hopefully he keeps doing well. The maps are completely balanced...
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How are some of you guys so stupid?
I wanted game discussion and we get a buncha shitheads crying imba because Bisu beat a player who is about as good as Firefist. -_-;;
Ugh.
Yeah, it's that stupid.
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Sweden33719 Posts
To me it sort of feels like zerg is kind of lacking in star players at the moment.. Jaedong is kinda slumping, and after him who does zerg even have? Luxury and Yarnc, have great ZvT, and would in my mind be next in line. However neither player has ever been considered strong ZvPers, quite the opposite in fact.
I'm sure the maps play some part as well, but the 3 zergs that are at the top now were never known for their ZvP in the first place (Jaedong is the only one of the 3 who went from bad at ZvP to good at it).
Granted, I'm not extremely up to date on who's hot right now, but that's just what it feels like to me - a lack of solid zerg "flagship" players.
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Anyone who watched the games and is complaining that map imbalance caused that loss is full of shit. Bisu's play was simply spectacular, and there wasn't a damn thing Hoejja could do about it. Even the best ZvPs in their prime wouldn't be able to stop Bisu right now.
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EPT
