[GOM] Ro16, Day 2 - Page 48

On December 15 2008 04:35 Tianx wrote:
Anyone who watched the games and is complaining that map imbalance caused that loss is full of shit. Bisu's play was simply spectacular, and there wasn't a damn thing Hoejja could do about it. Even the best ZvPs in their prime wouldn't be able to stop Bisu right now.

the thing is you could always overpool on every map in any MU but you cant 14 CC or open with 2 gates every time. Dont blame the maps,just a few weeks ago JD was doing fine no matter what.

On December 15 2008 04:47 SuperJongMan wrote:
O no, SC is so imba Here is a 300+ game sample size -_-;; plz stfu.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/157_Shinhan_Proleague_08-09

On December 15 2008 05:26 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Don't think you should use Andromeda as an example of a balanced map when zerg is 63% vs P on it ;O

Stork vs Keke? As comparatively bad as his PvZ is, he's another level than Keke.
Best vs Hero? Probably more of a toss-up but it's still an A-Class Pro vs a comparatively rookie zerg.
Bisu vs Calm? Calm has a pretty decent record vs Bisu (3-4), but Bisu is in god mode, in a BoX series the best bet is ALWAYS Bisu.
HoeJJa vs Much? Well I'd have bet on Much probably but apparently I'd have been wrong.
Kal vs ToSky? Kal.

On December 15 2008 05:32 Atrioc wrote:


Bisu won that game though!

However you did miss a couple examples:
Effort vs Best is an area where I feel the maps constrained Effort horribly. He was forced into extremely poor builds (such as his 2 hatch muta, a build which rarely rarely works ZvP and is an obvious sign of desperation on an unfavorable map)

Jaedong vs Tempest is another major area. Watch Jaedong vs Tempest on Neo Requiem, the only map of their series that was balanced. Jaedong's superior decision making and ability was 100% evident and he subsequently rolled Tempest. When it came to the other maps, the amazingly powerful timing of the +1 zel/archon build left Jaedong destroyed with really no viable options. (Even more revealing: watch Tempest vs Juni from last night - Tempest's decision making is really awful which makes his wins over Jaedong purely on the strength of a map+build that much more dissapointing)

On December 15 2008 05:09 Atrioc wrote:
Man I dont want to be rude but some of you people are absolute idiots

of course its the maps

Protoss players didnt suddenly become good and zerg players started sucking, what a dumbass thing to say. Remarks like that always come from people who dont actually play starcraft, say things like "well I understand the game I just dont have the mechanics", and watch games of their favorite players winning and think they have their finger on the pulse of the proscene.

Did you know that the Club Day MSL is the only league to ever have a RO4 with all the same race. Ever. In the 8+ years of OSL/MSL/GSL, mirror finals alone have been rare, but a completely homogeneous round of 4 happened only once, on the Club Day MSL with the new maps.

Stop juding balance based on the personalities of the player, or what "general impressions" you have. This is a massive trend that has absolutely nothing to do with indidual skill of any Protoss, Zerg, or even Terran, but on a series of horrible maps that constrain non-Protoss players into sub-par situations and builds. Consider also that the past 20 games of Zerg vs Terran have favored Terran 17-3 - that is absolutely disgusting imbalance, and yet even with Terran not having to worry about Zerg at all they are getting destroyed by Protoss. Did every good player in Korea happen to choose Protoss and its just coincedince that it happened at the same time as the new maps?

And this is the worst point of all: "Zerg Players just need to evolve! They need new builds!". - I'm looking especially at you Bulgaria because, big secret comes out, you know absolutely nothing about what you are saying. When you make random statements like - which makes absolutely no sense - not only is it plain wrong, (going overpool on many maps is a poor choice especially vT), but all those builds serve radically different purposes and are in no way equivalent across races, and it becomes obvious you do not play Starcraft. Maybe if you did it would become more clear - Zerg are not missing out on some secret game winning strategy.

A million monkeys on a million typewriters would eventually produce the works of Shakespeare.
A million gosu korean zergs on a million computers practicing 12 hours a day would fucking know if queens or fast lurker or sunkening up expos actually stops the hyper-agressive timing attacks of Protoss today. They do not. The best option lies in the speed hydras praying to god they have absolutely perfect positioning (anyone who has actually been watching pro games for strat help instead of entertainment might have noticed how crazily improved zerg hydra micro has become, there has been a massive evolution in hydra use/knowledge, but even then it is not helping) so they can slow the zealots down until a tech switch to mutas can clean them up and usually put the game at even or slightly favoring the Toss (thats even assuming the zealots didnt focus fire a building during the battle or kill a bunch of drones etc)



Absolutely correct, but this just further proves the point! When map balance is no longer a factor, (obviously any zerg that comes out feels comfortable enough on whatever map the coach sends them for), Zergs, Protoss, and Terran all settle out to about an even 50%. Protoss players are not radically evolved and superior to all. Yet when we look over at the individual leagues where maps cannot be avoided - Terran and Zerg are crushed left and right.

Final Thoughts: An Appeal to Reason

Bisu obviously obviously deserved to win this game. Bisu is a great player who has had excellent PvZ through thick and thin. Why people want an era where Tempest, a pro gamer with disgustingly bad decision making but mindlessly perfect macro/timing knocks out a player Jaedong in the RO16 instead of an era with something like an epic Bisu vs Jaedong finals (remember their games on Andromeda and Blue Storm? Balanced Maps, extremely good games)
I know Protoss are itching for an era of their own, since it is definitely true they used to be the weakest race, but this is unilke the T/Z era where 1 or 2 men lead the charge and the rest of the scene fights hard to compete. This is PvPvPvPvP, where a Protoss win in the finals (especially vs Zerg) is no longer the epic struggle of the slight underdog but the expected routine. As SC2 approaches, is this really the era worth ending on?

On December 14 2008 19:59 freelander wrote:


but flash has more tvp skill than those guys together have

On December 15 2008 06:12 abakben wrote:
You are the absolute idiot.

On December 15 2008 06:12 abakben wrote:

You are the absolute idiot. Jaedong lost to Tempest because he is not the jaedong that dominates his opponents anymore.

On December 15 2008 06:27 Carefree Me wrote:


Bisu dismantled Iris in the last OSL.

On December 15 2008 06:32 Atrioc wrote:


I'll be honest it almost seems like you have a learning disability or you are very young from your posts because either you are unable to make simple logical connections or you just didnt read the post you responded to. It reflects extremely negatively on your ability to form a cohesive argument for your side when you quote a 1 page post containing evidence and then post your 1 sentence no-value opinion. Usually I would ignore this but you are one of the people who have been getting cocky with frequent posts of extremely wrong and bias statements.

So, yes, Jaedong is not dominating people anymore, good job little guy!. Thank you for outlining one of the basic facts that this whole discussion was begun on. Let me keep this slow for you... Jaedong going from dominance to many losses in a very quick period of time prompts the question "why?" That is the question that when you look at all the evidence available leads to the conclusion that the modern play on the most recent maps is extremely constraining for non-protoss players.

Since you do not play Starcraft, it is extremely suspect that you are even involving yourself in this at all. You have no idea whether a build is good for Zerg or not, what would make a map difficult or imbalanced, and yet you arrogantly decide that the fault is on every single non-Protoss player in Korea for sucking and not on diffcult maps. Please refrain from such dumb statements in the future!