EPT[GOM] Ro16, Day 2 - Page 51
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Best is NOT beating the best Zergs in PvZ! In 2008 he's 0-3 vs July, 2-4 vs Jaedong, 3-2 vs Luxury. At 20-18 he is just barely getting by in PvZ. Name these top zergs he's supposedly beating? I look at his list and I see a narrow 2-1 over Effort and by.hero - these people are complete rookies with less than 30 games played. Bisu recovered from a mini-slump, nothing surprising about him being back in shape. Stork has always been solid and has never really had any problems vs anyone but Jaedong/Savior, now that both are slumping there's nobody there to really stop him. He's NOT beating zerg players he wasn't beating before - look at his record, he's beating people like Nal_Keke, Zero, Orion. About Jangbi and PvZ: I've always thought JangBi was awesome @ PvZ, I knew him a bit before he was a pro (same clan) and obviously always cheer for him. But let's look at his last 10 PvZs: He's 8-2. He played Yellow[Arnc] 5 times (6 in the last 11) Yellow[arnc] is 45% in ZvP and has NEVER been any good at it. He's beaten Shark (6-13 ZvP). He's beaten Zergbong (1-2 ZvP). Is it surprising that someone like Jangbi, who has been at 60% PvT for a loooooooong time, can beat these <50% 2nd Tier progamers? Especially on maps that are anything but bad for protoss (see, I'm not saying the maps aren't good for toss, I'm saying that there's a huge inflation caused by a lack of high level zerg players). As for Kal, I don't know his game at all really. Looking at his matchlist though, him winning PvT hardly seems surprising - he's got an excellent PvT trackrecord dating back from early 2007. Much like Jangbi, his only weakness seems to come from PvP. Oh and you know what? He lost 1-3 to Jaedong on the same maps you claimed were imbalanced (Katrina, Loki). Maybe it's not all in the maps, maybe Jaedong is just slumping (and he's got plenty of time to come back, everybody slumps). Like Kal, I don't know enough about Free to really comment. But he's 2-3 vs Jaedong in 2008 and the series he won was extremely close, despite happening right as Jaedong was starting to lose left and right. So in conclusion: 6 toss players did NOT suddenly go from scrubs to S-Class. Stork and Bisu have been that way for a long time now, Kal and Jangbi have been up and coming for a long time and finally broke through. Best exploded in PvP and PvT but has not shown impressive PvZ at all. Free had one good run and you are gonna raise him to the skies? I dunno, his gamelist for 2008 does not look very different from 2007. I mean seriously, the new generation of Zergs are either 1) Rookies (ie EffOrt) 2) Ex-mediocre Zergs who are slowly improving (ie Calm). | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
On December 16 2008 05:35 Supah wrote: Oh shit, I had written up a long reply to FA but it all got deleted somehow, so here we go again. Kal and jangbi going as far as they did 1 year ago was because of the maps. Don't tell me Katrina and loki2 is balanced. Also Jangbi has been everyones bitch in PvZ for a long time, and went as far because of meeting only orion of zergs and terrans on maps that favored protoss. They were not close to being as good as they are now. If you look at the protoss scene from 1 year ago, who was the top players? Free, Jangbi, Kal, Bisu, Much, Anytime, stork and Best. Now 1 of those are in the airforce, 1 is doing mediocre at best and 6 of those are top10 in the world. Yet you claim only free has suddenly gotten better? What about jangbi and stork and best who is suddenly beating the best zergs in PvZ? What about Kal wining PvT? Bisu seemingly popping out of his slump? Did they all just get way better game understanding and improve as players or is there 1 common factor that made all of them suddenly better? I think it's the second, and I hope that factor is maps, I do not claim that it is. Because if it's the build that they are using, (talking ZvP right now, I now nothing of TvP except that protoss wins) there has to be found a counter, and every time the balance in starcraft changes there is always a possibility that no counter is found, which would lead to imbalance. To early to really speak about that though, but if no zergs show any sort of winning records against top protosses in 3/4 months it's a problem that will likely lead to kespa trying to balance it with less FE friendly maps, like for instance the new Tears in the(of the?) moon which IMO assuming regular ZvP should be a Z>>P map. Savior and july isn't good players anymore, slumping is the wrong word, they are average zergs no better than Hoejja or zero or calm or (insert name of whatever zerg that gets hyped up cause he has 3 wins in a row) problem is that there has been no one but jaedong doing good vs both P and T since savior. Your concluding that because of 6 protossplayers beeing way better than the zerg players they face it looks imbalanced. I claim that if suddenly the gameplay of 6 players of the same race got better something changed that affected the racial balance. Free and jangbi and Kal and Best wasn't S-class a half year ago Stork though S-class still couldn't wrap his head around PvZ and bisu was in a semislump. Something changed, if it's the map or the builds I cant tell but zergs didn't just start sucking recently, zergs have been generally mediocre for a long time, it's just that except of bisu and Kal no protosses were good at PvZ. When that suddenly changed and in a period where the amount of promising decent new zergs are actually higher than it's been for a long time, I find claiming it to be just all of them getting better at the same time slightly ridiculous. Stork culdnt wrap his head around pvz a year ago sure, but stork beat jaedong wcg on old I would say z favored map. What acounts for that? | ||
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