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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 1?No (15) 56% If you have time (9) 33% Yes (3) 11% 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 2?Yes (43) 96% No (2) 4% If you have time (0) 0% 45 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 3?Yes (24) 89% If you have time (3) 11% No (0) 0% 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 4?Yes (9) 47% If you have time (8) 42% No (2) 11% 19 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 5?Yes (31) 89% If you have time (3) 9% No (1) 3% 35 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 6?Yes (25) 89% If you have time (2) 7% No (1) 4% 28 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 7?No (29) 71% Yes (10) 24% If you have time (2) 5% 41 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soma vs Bisu Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
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On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote:On October 17 2025 19:00 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote:
Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base. This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop. Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has.
Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.
If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster.
But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ.
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On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote:On October 17 2025 19:00 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote:
Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base. This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop. Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ.
Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers...
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My favorite part of these threads is the time between ASL days where it's just like TMNT and some other guy arguing crunchy vs smooth for 10 pages. Should actually be paywalled, that's how good it is.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote:On October 17 2025 19:00 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote:
Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base. This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop. Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers...
If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones.
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On October 20 2025 02:42 RogerChillingworth wrote:My favorite part of these threads is the time between ASL days where it's just like TMNT and some other guy arguing crunchy vs smooth for 10 pages. Should actually be paywalled, that's how good it is. + Show Spoiler +
If you're talking about Peanut Butter, smooth all the way.
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+ Show Spoiler +just finished this and i am livid!!! As a protoss player (even if I'm bad) and a huge bisu fan, i feel cheated!!! Damn those zerglings!!!
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On October 20 2025 02:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote:On October 17 2025 19:00 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote:
Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base. This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop. Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers... If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones.
Once again, you can't go to carriers.
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On October 20 2025 06:14 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2025 02:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote:On October 17 2025 19:00 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote:
Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base. This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop. Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers... If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones. Once again, you can't go to carriers.
Okay so that is an opinion. Your opinion. But let's forget about whether it's right or not for a moment here (you are likely wrong though).
The point is me and another guy were talking about why you have to make Reavers during the transition to Carriers. It's not about whether Carriers are the right choice or not. Okay? So why would you jump in rambling about irrelevant stuff. You should get your head check.
Also yes, you should find games to prove your point. It's a much better way to prove your idea, than talking out of your ass like you have been doing all along. You have to find the right games mind. Not like you can find a TvT to demonstrate your point about a PvZ like what you did recently in another thread.
Seriously, this guy's head is not normal. Why the fuck is he allowed to run rampant on the forum I'll never know.
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On October 20 2025 06:26 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2025 06:14 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 02:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote:On October 17 2025 19:00 TMNT wrote:
[quote]
This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop.
Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers... If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones. Once again, you can't go to carriers. Okay so that is an opinion. Your opinion. But let's forget about whether it's right or not for a moment here (you are likely wrong though). The point is me and another guy were talking about why you have to make Reavers during the transition to Carriers. It's not about whether Carriers are the right choice or not. Okay? So why would you jump in rambling about irrelevant stuff. You should get your head check. Also yes, you should find games to prove your point. It's a much better way to prove your idea, than talking out of your ass like you have been doing all along. You have to find the right games mind. Not like you can find a TvT to demonstrate your point about a PvZ like what you did recently in another thread. Seriously, this guy's head is not normal. Why the fuck is he allowed to run rampant on the forum I'll never know.
Oh, I found the game. The game of the thread we are in. It doesn't go as planned.
Btw this is not an opinion. This is fact. You take time, zerg also has time for devourers. Your pick, either your opinion, or winning the game. I, myself, don't bother discussing with you why bisu vs hero games, or with mr. goat why mini vs queen are not case examples: both players are not up to par with the finals at stake and you are literally bringing garbage into the discussion thinking we cannot feel the wretched stench around your ignorant argument. Have some class will you? Try learning from the best, not the worst.
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On October 20 2025 07:22 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2025 06:26 TMNT wrote:On October 20 2025 06:14 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 02:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote:
[quote]
Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers... If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones. Once again, you can't go to carriers. Okay so that is an opinion. Your opinion. But let's forget about whether it's right or not for a moment here (you are likely wrong though). The point is me and another guy were talking about why you have to make Reavers during the transition to Carriers. It's not about whether Carriers are the right choice or not. Okay? So why would you jump in rambling about irrelevant stuff. You should get your head check. Also yes, you should find games to prove your point. It's a much better way to prove your idea, than talking out of your ass like you have been doing all along. You have to find the right games mind. Not like you can find a TvT to demonstrate your point about a PvZ like what you did recently in another thread. Seriously, this guy's head is not normal. Why the fuck is he allowed to run rampant on the forum I'll never know. Oh, I found the game. The game of the thread we are in. It doesn't go as planned. Btw this is not an opinion. This is fact. You take time, zerg also has time for devourers. Your pick, either your opinion, or winning the game. I, myself, don't bother discussing with you why bisu vs hero games, or with mr. goat why mini vs queen are not case examples: both players are not up to par with the finals at stake and you are literally bringing garbage into the discussion thinking we cannot feel the wretched stench around your ignorant argument. Have some class will you? Try learning from the best, not the worst.
imagine making the proposition that you are "the best" and pros like bisu fall into the category of "the worst". the audacity and delulu on this guy
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i love that people are arguing about a build they've never played. Humanity is very cool!
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On October 20 2025 14:22 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2025 07:22 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 06:26 TMNT wrote:On October 20 2025 06:14 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 02:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:
[quote]
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers... If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones. Once again, you can't go to carriers. Okay so that is an opinion. Your opinion. But let's forget about whether it's right or not for a moment here (you are likely wrong though). The point is me and another guy were talking about why you have to make Reavers during the transition to Carriers. It's not about whether Carriers are the right choice or not. Okay? So why would you jump in rambling about irrelevant stuff. You should get your head check. Also yes, you should find games to prove your point. It's a much better way to prove your idea, than talking out of your ass like you have been doing all along. You have to find the right games mind. Not like you can find a TvT to demonstrate your point about a PvZ like what you did recently in another thread. Seriously, this guy's head is not normal. Why the fuck is he allowed to run rampant on the forum I'll never know. Oh, I found the game. The game of the thread we are in. It doesn't go as planned. Btw this is not an opinion. This is fact. You take time, zerg also has time for devourers. Your pick, either your opinion, or winning the game. I, myself, don't bother discussing with you why bisu vs hero games, or with mr. goat why mini vs queen are not case examples: both players are not up to par with the finals at stake and you are literally bringing garbage into the discussion thinking we cannot feel the wretched stench around your ignorant argument. Have some class will you? Try learning from the best, not the worst. imagine making the proposition that you are "the best" and pros like bisu fall into the category of "the worst". the audacity and delulu on this guy
I think by best and worst he means examples, not people.
But it doesn't change much. He's been saying the pros are playing the matchup the wrong way for a while. Now if I understand correctly (because trying to understand the mess this guy writes is a challenge), he probably implies 2 Gate opening is the right way to play PvZ (and he's been very vocal about Forge expansion as the wrong way).
Dude also has classic claims such as P should expand faster than Z like in a PvT, and Z should use Mutas to focus fire the CC instead of fighting MM&Turrets so that a Queen can come in to infest the CC. There are many more.
Honestly it's my fault trying to reply to him. Sometimes I'm just so curious and try to understand "how a person goes through this thought process to come up with something like this"
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On October 20 2025 14:22 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2025 07:22 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 06:26 TMNT wrote:On October 20 2025 06:14 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 02:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote:
[quote]
To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers... If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones. Once again, you can't go to carriers. Okay so that is an opinion. Your opinion. But let's forget about whether it's right or not for a moment here (you are likely wrong though). The point is me and another guy were talking about why you have to make Reavers during the transition to Carriers. It's not about whether Carriers are the right choice or not. Okay? So why would you jump in rambling about irrelevant stuff. You should get your head check. Also yes, you should find games to prove your point. It's a much better way to prove your idea, than talking out of your ass like you have been doing all along. You have to find the right games mind. Not like you can find a TvT to demonstrate your point about a PvZ like what you did recently in another thread. Seriously, this guy's head is not normal. Why the fuck is he allowed to run rampant on the forum I'll never know. Oh, I found the game. The game of the thread we are in. It doesn't go as planned. Btw this is not an opinion. This is fact. You take time, zerg also has time for devourers. Your pick, either your opinion, or winning the game. I, myself, don't bother discussing with you why bisu vs hero games, or with mr. goat why mini vs queen are not case examples: both players are not up to par with the finals at stake and you are literally bringing garbage into the discussion thinking we cannot feel the wretched stench around your ignorant argument. Have some class will you? Try learning from the best, not the worst. imagine making the proposition that you are "the best" and pros like bisu fall into the category of "the worst". the audacity and delulu on this guy
No, hero and queen vs larva(best) soma(2nd best).
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On October 20 2025 19:11 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2025 14:22 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 20 2025 07:22 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 06:26 TMNT wrote:On October 20 2025 06:14 mtcn77 wrote:On October 20 2025 02:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 20 2025 01:15 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 23:42 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 19 2025 07:26 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote:
[quote]
Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different.
Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well.
Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. Go watch Mini Queen on Roaring Currents from the October 15th Daily Proleague.If you don't make reavers to help defend while transitioning to air, you die to hydras. If you expand on land which renders your corsairs meaningless for the defense, you just die even faster. But I'm sure you know more than former ASL Champion Mini about how to play PvZ. Now I have to find games in order to argue a point? Great, now I can attack every time protoss loses making reavers... If your point is that a Protoss player can avoid making Reavers on Roaring Currents (or any map) while going straight to Carriers, yes, you do have to find a game where it happens and they don't die to a slight breeze because they'd have fuck all to defend the slightest push. Alternatively, the Zerg player goes ultra greed and then just overwhelms the Protoss player who has applied literally zero pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but make drones. Once again, you can't go to carriers. Okay so that is an opinion. Your opinion. But let's forget about whether it's right or not for a moment here (you are likely wrong though). The point is me and another guy were talking about why you have to make Reavers during the transition to Carriers. It's not about whether Carriers are the right choice or not. Okay? So why would you jump in rambling about irrelevant stuff. You should get your head check. Also yes, you should find games to prove your point. It's a much better way to prove your idea, than talking out of your ass like you have been doing all along. You have to find the right games mind. Not like you can find a TvT to demonstrate your point about a PvZ like what you did recently in another thread. Seriously, this guy's head is not normal. Why the fuck is he allowed to run rampant on the forum I'll never know. Oh, I found the game. The game of the thread we are in. It doesn't go as planned. Btw this is not an opinion. This is fact. You take time, zerg also has time for devourers. Your pick, either your opinion, or winning the game. I, myself, don't bother discussing with you why bisu vs hero games, or with mr. goat why mini vs queen are not case examples: both players are not up to par with the finals at stake and you are literally bringing garbage into the discussion thinking we cannot feel the wretched stench around your ignorant argument. Have some class will you? Try learning from the best, not the worst. imagine making the proposition that you are "the best" and pros like bisu fall into the category of "the worst". the audacity and delulu on this guy I think by best and worst he means examples, not people. But it doesn't change much. He's been saying the pros are playing the matchup the wrong way for a while. Now if I understand correctly (because trying to understand the mess this guy writes is a challenge), he probably implies 2 Gate opening is the right way to play PvZ (and he's been very vocal about Forge expansion as the wrong way). Dude also has classic claims such as P should expand faster than Z like in a PvT, and Z should use Mutas to focus fire the CC instead of fighting MM&Turrets so that a Queen can come in to infest the CC. There are many more. Honestly it's my fault trying to reply to him. Sometimes I'm just so curious and try to understand "how a person goes through this thought process to come up with something like this"
Even in your most prejudiced self you cannot deny larva is the most decisive player on roaring currents. What he displayed vs light has not yet been replicated. No one has dropped ultralisks on terran fortifications. You could argue it is not protoss, but it is the hardest defensive line he laid waste to. He also frequently uses queens with such efficiency that if he had stayed in the tournament any longer, I think we would be talking about his finesse rather than soma's early game prowess.
You are good at summarising my convictions, but you aren't citing my sources, so you are giving a false notion they are baseless. I watched a lot of starcraft, some even before julyzerg, though I will never have another favourite player. I think before you judge me you should look for ways to find out his vods because I think you don't believe me when I say the things he could do that no one could copy have really been played.
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United Kingdom1708 Posts
I occasionally log in to just read TMNT and mtcn77 both going at it. Again. And again. And again. There has to be a philosophical thought experiment to be drawn from all of this, something about purgatory...
I enjoyed the games. I was upset that it all ended the way it did - it was so grimly predictable for me that if it went to a game 7, the zerg would cheese and 75% chance would win.
I absolutely can't wait to see the finals.
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There's another crazy PvZ (Bisu vs Queen) on Roaring Currents today (China sponsored) for anyone wanting to study this map. And yes of course there are Carriers vs Devourers involved.
+ Show Spoiler +looks like Bisu and the Carriers are losing again. I couldn't follow the whole game but looks like it started off with a failed Hydra bust attempt from Queen.
Oh no he won. He lost almost all his Carriers before but remade them and fighted again. The game ended with Bisu mining out while killing top left (last base of Queen) with his Carrier Corsair fleet and a Shuttle carrying 4 HTs.
So unsurprisingly mixing HTs in is the formula to win. But what we need to know is how much of a setback Queen suffered from the failed Hydra bust opening to let the game into that state later.
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On October 21 2025 18:32 ImbaTosS wrote:
I occasionally log in to just read TMNT and mtcn77 both going at it. Again. And again. And again. There has to be a philosophical thought experiment to be drawn from all of this, something about purgatory...
I enjoyed the games. I was upset that it all ended the way it did - it was so grimly predictable for me that if it went to a game 7, the zerg would cheese and 75% chance would win.
I absolutely can't wait to see the finals.
You can watch today's proleague match between soma and snow, too. Let me tell, you it doesn't last until the lategame.
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On October 21 2025 19:47 TMNT wrote:There's another crazy PvZ (Bisu vs Queen) on Roaring Currents today (China sponsored) for anyone wanting to study this map. And yes of course there are Carriers vs Devourers involved. + Show Spoiler +looks like Bisu and the Carriers are losing again. I couldn't follow the whole game but looks like it started off with a failed Hydra bust attempt from Queen.
Oh no he won. He lost almost all his Carriers before but remade them and fighted again. The game ended with Bisu mining out while killing top left (last base of Queen) with his Carrier Corsair fleet and a Shuttle carrying 4 HTs.
So unsurprisingly mixing HTs in is the formula to win. But what we need to know is how much of a setback Queen suffered from the failed Hydra bust opening to let the game into that state later.
Hi,
Where we can see this game ? Can you send me link?
Thanx you
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On October 23 2025 22:23 88)trAncE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2025 19:47 TMNT wrote:There's another crazy PvZ (Bisu vs Queen) on Roaring Currents today (China sponsored) for anyone wanting to study this map. And yes of course there are Carriers vs Devourers involved. + Show Spoiler +looks like Bisu and the Carriers are losing again. I couldn't follow the whole game but looks like it started off with a failed Hydra bust attempt from Queen.
Oh no he won. He lost almost all his Carriers before but remade them and fighted again. The game ended with Bisu mining out while killing top left (last base of Queen) with his Carrier Corsair fleet and a Shuttle carrying 4 HTs.
So unsurprisingly mixing HTs in is the formula to win. But what we need to know is how much of a setback Queen suffered from the failed Hydra bust opening to let the game into that state later. Hi, Where we can see this game ? Can you send me link? Thanx you
From Bisu pov
https://vod.sooplive.co.kr/player/175550619?change_second=4866
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EPT
