EPT
[ASL20] Semifinal B
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
What are the recent results of these two outside of asl? | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1865 Posts
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thezanursic
5492 Posts
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 13 2025 22:21 RowdierBob wrote: I really don’t know with this one. A battle of Bisu’s crazy good PvZ mechanics vs Soma’s unpredictability. I lean slightly towards Soma but it’s close to a coin flip. What are the recent results of these two outside of asl? Soma leads 7-3 in their past 10 games and 3-0 last week. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13989 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
On October 14 2025 02:16 Cricketer12 wrote: I predicted Soma, so it'll probably be Rain 4-2 You mean Bisu , Cricketer.... | ||
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 10:05 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: Bisu bucket time? Bisu is anti aggression protoss. He is never bucket tier. He gets stronger the more risks zerg players take, a.k.a. soma. | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 14 2025 08:57 barcodejester wrote: roaring should be a free win for zerg. lucky for bisu its map 7 so it probably wont be the biggest factor. Maybe so, but I'm not convinced the map is as bad as it has looked. In daily prolegaues, we saw one game of Corsair/Reaver into Carriers. The Zerg player had all 6 "normal" bases including two on the Protoss side of the map. The Protoss player had 5 bases due to 3 islands. When they moved out with Carriers, they steamrolled, even against Devourers. Literally nobody has tried to replicate that since. In theory it has been countered in games outside of the daily proleagues, but considering how feeble the attacks that Protoss players have been doing on the map seem to be, I can't imagine it has a lower win chance. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 10:18 RogueTheGOAT wrote: Maybe so, but I'm not convinced the map is as bad as it has looked. In daily prolegaues, we saw one game of Corsair/Reaver into Carriers. The Zerg player had all 6 "normal" bases including two on the Protoss side of the map. The Protoss player had 5 bases due to 3 islands. When they moved out with Carriers, they steamrolled, even against Devourers. Literally nobody has tried to replicate that since. In theory it has been countered in games outside of the daily proleagues, but considering how feeble the attacks that Protoss players have been doing on the map seem to be, I can't imagine it has a lower win chance. That would be the Larva vs Paralyze game however I object to your connotation. Paralyze didn't lose because his attacks were feeble. He lost because of them. As per greed>standard>agression>greed rule, this map is greedy so, Larva had an advantage. He expanded 6 times during which he even expanded to Paralyze's third. It is unseen for zerg to expand to a protoss third. That is why Paralyze lost. PS: the map is different from others by standard. Mining and vespene gas is deliberately tampered with. You won't win any games if you stick to your side of the map, the game is made that way. It has been a common theme among terran players who found themselves economically deadlocked just by turtling in lategame from previous seasons maps. This took it further. In order to keep the economy going you have to macro. On July 08 2025 06:01 Kraekkling wrote: Roaring Currents (screaming sea) Main Base: 10M + 1G (2 locations, one mineral patch has 749) Natural Expansion: 7M + 1G (2 locations) 9 o’clock / 12 o’clock 1st level: 7M + 1G (2 locations, minerals 1000, gas 2000) 9 o’clock / 12 o’clock 2nd level: 6M + 1G (2 locations, minerals 1000, gas 3000) 11 o’clock island expansion: 6M + 1G (1 location, minerals 1200, gas 4000) 4 o’clock / 5 o’clock island expansion: 7M + 1G (2 locations, minerals 1200, gas 4000) Center island expansion: 8M + 1G (1 location, minerals 1200, gas 4000) | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 14 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote: That would be the Larva vs Paralyze game however I object to your connotation. Paralyze didn't lose because his attacks were feeble. He lost because of them. As per greed>standard>agression>greed rule, this map is greedy so, Larva had an advantage. He expanded 6 times during which he even expanded to Paralyze's third. It is unseen for zerg to expand to a protoss third. That is why Paralyze lost. No, I'm talking about Bisu HerO on August 22nd. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 10:33 RogueTheGOAT wrote: No, I'm talking about Bisu HerO on August 22nd. https://youtu.be/2kqko2cV4QE?t=15929 Hero lost to Speed in even more spectacular fashion. I think his early game was wrong. He made mutalisks and scourge vs corsairs and zealots who are both very efficient in the mid game and bisu only made 1 zealot in the early game. He kept trying to attack with hydralisks instead of defending with them ironically. They are good for macro just because they are economical, not because you can throw them endlessly around. It is a macro map, bisu was even neck to neck in expansions in mid game. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 14 2025 10:18 RogueTheGOAT wrote: Maybe so, but I'm not convinced the map is as bad as it has looked. In daily prolegaues, we saw one game of Corsair/Reaver into Carriers. The Zerg player had all 6 "normal" bases including two on the Protoss side of the map. The Protoss player had 5 bases due to 3 islands. When they moved out with Carriers, they steamrolled, even against Devourers. Literally nobody has tried to replicate that since. In theory it has been countered in games outside of the daily proleagues, but considering how feeble the attacks that Protoss players have been doing on the map seem to be, I can't imagine it has a lower win chance. I posted the analysis of that game in the other thread: Only when P secures a lead after the first Sair Reaver harass, he can safely transition to Carriers. See Bisu vs Hero on Aug 22. Hero tries to contest the double Stargate with mass Muta Scourge, but not a good idea. Bisu wins the air battle and gets some drone kills and gets ahead, while Hero doesn't have a ground army to punish the Carrier transition because he invests a lot in air. But even with that, Bisu still has to fight for 30 mins in a close battle to win the game. Hero takes all the land bases (including the ones on Bisu's side lol) and transitions into Devourers while also using a counter drop strategy (because the Carriers are not very mobile), but Bisu defends well with Dweb + Reavers on his islands. Also Devourers + Scourges are not too bad against Corsairs + Carriers. That you only see such strategy in that game (maybe there are a few others outside proleague) is evidence it's more of a conditional build (like in PvT where P secures a lead and can transition to Carriers), not a streamline one (like in the main ZvT meta where Z streamlines their build into Defiler no matter what). The key factor here is Hero decided to fight Protoss air with Zerg air, which sometimes works, but against the best Corsair user in Bisu may not be ideal, so he was falling behind. In fact the way he fell behind in midgame, had several failed doom drops, and could still take 6 bases and fighted against the Carriers past 30 minutes shows how hard it is to kill Zerg on that map. It was not a steamroll for Bisu at all. And I also wonder what if Hero added Ensnare on top of the Devourers Scourges army.... | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7226 Posts
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SCRVN
92 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey744 Posts
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ahwala
Germany395 Posts
Hopefully more exciting than Barracks vs. Snow. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2593 Posts
But I feel confident he can close it out by game 5 or 6. | ||
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Katkishka
United States656 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5165 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:02 prosatan wrote: Flash , JD and Stork are all streaming damn I wish I understood korean. when I see Jinjin clips the commentary seems gold | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:07 barcodejester wrote: damn I wish I understood korean. when I see Jinjin clips the commentary seems gold +1 barcodejester  | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
PS: okay, got it. PS: God I hate the English accent of these casters. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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prosatan
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
good decision making ! | ||
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prosatan
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
how can he lose stupid games like this is beyond me !!! he kept the probe alive more than any other protoss ever did | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
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SCRVN
92 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
Hope this isn't how the rest of the set is going to go >< | ||
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:34 RowdierBob wrote: Crazy how Bisu scouted the spire first with his probe, knows how much Soma loves mutas in this matchup and yet still makes just the one cannon in the main. I think Bisu really thought he wouldn’t have enough to take down four cairs and a cannon. Yeah way too greedy from Bisu. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:33 SCRVN wrote: soma must be proud of his air units, huh? Mutalisks vs dragoons is a win condition for zerg even harder than mutalisks vs goliaths. I hope bisu makes HTs, or we have a very short series. Funnily, casters called bisu was cutting corners, it seems Soma was cutting corners even harder. | ||
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Simplistik
2081 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:40 Simplistik wrote: Poor game. Something I don't understand is why Protoss often stand and fight in these situations with their corsairs. If the scourge hit well you're toast... if the cannon dies you are toast too. its quite unfortunate that the unit added to the game because mutas are so OP doesnt counter mutas early. | ||
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SCRVN
92 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:37 mtcn77 wrote:Mutalisks vs dragoons is a win condition for zerg even harder than mutalisks vs goliaths. I hope bisu makes HTs, or we have a very short series. Funnily, casters called bisu was cutting corners, it seems Soma was cutting corners even harder. Does the win condition mean buying mutas? it must be very hard for Zerg players, I think. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:34 RowdierBob wrote: Crazy how Bisu scouted the spire first with his probe, knows how much Soma loves mutas in this matchup and yet still makes just the one cannon in the main. I think Bisu really thought he wouldn’t have enough to take down four cairs and a cannon. Soma made Spire and Hydra Den after 3 Hatch and Lair. How are you supposed to know if he would Muta or Hydra all in or semi all in (Soma was on 24 Drones btw). You kind of have to guess and Bisu guessed it wrong. His mistake was that he tried to fight the Muta Scourge head-on instead of going for emergency plan (evacuate Probes, Shield Battery at the nat, Dragoon nonstop and try to play it out). Doesn't mean it'd work but emergency plan you have to go. But tbh it was hindsight talking, like barcode just said above, if the cannon dies you're toasted too so idk. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:40 Simplistik wrote: Poor game. Something I don't understand is why Protoss often stand and fight in these situations with their corsairs. If the scourge hit well you're toast... The map was too big, like I said before the semifinals. Even if he has corsairs he cannot hunt overlords like he is supposed to. You are not supposed to sit still with corsairs like sitting ducks. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
Yes, mutalisks cannot be countered by dragoons in large enough numbers. Look how soma threw around mutalisks taking both corsair fire and dragoon fire since they don't synergise. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
bisu has bad luck today | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
i am very upset | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:52 prosatan wrote: at least bisu has +1 weapon upgrade and didn't die to the first attack ! Bisu is hunting overlords as he should! | ||
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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SCRVN
92 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia396 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
but i think bisu is ready for this !! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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durachok
13 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:54 SCRVN wrote: after Spire finishes, Zerg can make 0-10000000 mutas but Protoss and Terran don't know how many mutas Zerg has. How to counter it? Early game aggression. Look how bisu almost had it, but lost sight of double hydralisk den? This gives the advantage to zerg. Protoss gameplay is about early game map control. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:57 durachok wrote: Bisu is somehow alive It is a game of chicken. Whomever goes early rush is going to lose. Lol bisu is going great. He sufficiently intimidated zerg until zerg supply started to dwindle. That early overlord hunt during the hydrabust was fantastic. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:57 mtcn77 wrote: Earlg game aggression. Look how bisu almost had it, but lost sight of double hydralisk den? This gives the advantage to zerg. Protoss gameplay is about early game map control. i dont know how that works. how do you have map control with slow zealots vs ling? when have we ever seen that in thousands of games | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
soma with + 10 supply | ||
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SCRVN
92 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:57 mtcn77 wrote: Earlg game aggression. Look how bisu almost had it, but lost sight of double hydralisk den? This gives the advantage to zerg. Protoss gameplay is about early game map control. thanks, but I hope you see the super unfair in ZvP, ZvT where Zerg always takes so many advantage in all situation. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 19:58 barcodejester wrote: i dont know how that works. how do you have map control with slow zealots vs ling? when have we ever seen that in thousands of games You don't let zerg kill your zealots, that is how. Bisu sent 2 zealots, you can send up to 5. It is all up to the success of the first zealot. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
come on Bisu !!!! | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Zergxhx
China183 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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gravity
Australia1969 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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!Gr33zyPuG!
Philippines27 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Bisu's going to be mined out on his two bases soon. I think Soma should still have this second game, because Bisu's stuck. This is a standard map, you don't have to resort to early macro shenanigans. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
give this dirty all in coinflipper a lesson!!!! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:04 gravity wrote: I got distracted and somehow Bisu is winning? yes he is gravity !!!! | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:04 evilfatsh1t wrote: holy shit bisu what a fucking comeback. give this dirty all in coinflipper a lesson!!!! +1 right here ! | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:04 RowdierBob wrote: Omg Bisu. Hold the bucket! no bucket today ! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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VioleTAK
4338 Posts
Lets go! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
brother its a Bo7. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:04 konadora wrote: bisu’s pvz is insane holy shit how did he win this By killing all the overlords and almost sending zerg to supply block, even doing it after the initial attack. He killed like 6 overlords in the same span of time soma did the hydralisk bust. Bisu didn't budge, great. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4932 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
what a ballsy decision | ||
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Zergxhx
China183 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
yes but i still have hope BLinD-RawR | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
WHAT A COMEBACK | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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prosatan
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femtehjulet
18 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
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RowdierBob
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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Ketama)Djin(
Germany2593 Posts
 Nice comeback.. Let's go Bisu! | ||
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VioleTAK
4338 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:09 evilfatsh1t wrote: as i said in the ro8 thread, somas macro is shit compared to the og kespa pros. bisu should just play safe and invest in the extra cannons early to secure himself a drawn out game. ^this | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
he faked the muta strat from game 1 (he even showed scourges) then did the double hydra switch while bisu built 3 cannons in main it SHOULD have been soma’s game but bisu did well supply blocking soma to stop the aggression | ||
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VioleTAK
4338 Posts
Snow and Bisu are both so deserving of that star, that I would simply be the happiest if that finals takes place, despite mirror. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:09 evilfatsh1t wrote: as i said in the ro8 thread, somas macro is shit compared to the og kespa pros. bisu should just play safe and invest in the extra cannons early to secure himself a drawn out game. What I've seen here is a clearly better player in every facet of the game and a player relying mostly on abusing the matchup information advantage of his race. Sigh. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:06 konadora wrote: bisu decided to add two more gateways instead of expanding, that sealed the deal what a ballsy decision I was getting the obituary ready for that game, noting Bisu should’ve chilled and taken his third instead of going all in. How wrong I was. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:09 evilfatsh1t wrote: as i said in the ro8 thread, somas macro is shit compared to the og kespa pros. bisu should just play safe and invest in the extra cannons early to secure himself a drawn out game. its a reason why he got reverse swept from 4-0 to 4-5 against RoyaL in ultimate battle. once RoyaL figured out his cheese timings and played macro, Soma just got rekt | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:13 RowdierBob wrote: I was getting the obituary ready for that game, noting Bisu should’ve chilled and taken his third instead of going all in. How wrong I was. that’s why we’re mortals and Bisu is a PvZ god | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:13 TMNT wrote: What I've seen here is a clearly better player in every facet of the game and a player relying mostly on abusing the matchup information advantage of his race. Sigh. thats pvz in a nutshell. soma is the worst offender of this for sure. almost unfair how protoss is left to guess what zerg is doing and hope they guessed right each time | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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prosatan
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:15 evilfatsh1t wrote: thats pvz in a nutshell. soma is the worst offender of this for sure. almost unfair how protoss is left to guess what zerg is doing and hope they guessed right each time This is my least favourite part of all of BW. The retarded guessing game protoss has to do, and even when they guess right, they're still at a disadvantage. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
That being said, I am confident that Bisu has this | ||
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RowdierBob
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prosatan
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prosatan
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Ketama)Djin(
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imperator-xy
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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prosatan
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he has good control | ||
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Gorsameth
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barcodejester
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prosatan
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evilfatsh1t
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Timebon3s
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prosatan
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prosatan
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prosatan
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
bisu scouts it !!!! | ||
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
Soma picks Spire! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:33 poebae wrote: No way Bisu wasn't gonna scout that secret base. He's been around too long for that. Soma picks Spire! i think he saw it poebae .... | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
Bisu just needs to be safe from here and macro | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:34 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: bisu should have this Surely 1 base Zerg with no Spire doesn't beat 2 base Toss haha Soma is doing a lot with these Mutas but it'll never be enough. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
he is so much ahead !! | ||
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Gorsameth
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DarkPlasmaBall
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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VioleTAK
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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RowdierBob
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
please LR  | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
Half of the work is done. I fully expect Soma to win game 5 though, so Bisu MUST win game 4 now | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:39 prosatan wrote: no way , i have to go please LR you will be missed in the live thread. the vods will wait for you | ||
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Timebon3s
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imperator-xy
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konadora
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poebae
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poebae
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
Edit: Jk, no drones at 3rd. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
But dang, he suicides his corsairs trying to take out the Overlord so his DT can get out. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:48 barcodejester wrote: 2000 minerals of cannons lol He took evilfatshits advice to heart | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
At least he's learned his lesson about buliding enough cannons in his main. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
This is the time for BIsu to go smash. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
I worry that Bisu will start falling behind now with that 1 o'clock rolling. He needs to expand. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
Clutch Lurker egg secures the expansion break from Soma. Bisu dry in his main. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
too literally im afraid. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
Whatever happened to storm drops? I Remember back in the day, Bisu storm dropped zergs nonstop. | ||
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:58 Timebon3s wrote: Didnt expect Bisu to lose there tbh. Whatever happened to storm drops? I Remember back in the day, Bisu storm dropped zergs nonstop. storm drops allow for openings for zergs to counterattack since it means 2-6 less storms for defense storm drops now only work in mid to late stage macro games or maps with good defensive terrain/layout | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
That said, that sums up 973 for you: potential to kill, but if not fully committed, still playable. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:39 imperator-xy wrote: What a complete turnaround from that horrible game 1. Half of the work is done. I fully expect Soma to win game 5 though, so Bisu MUST win game 4 now Was just thinking this at the end of the 4th game. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:07 mtcn77 wrote: Was just thinking this at the end of the 4th game. Well, maybe he somehow manages to get game 5 :-( | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Zergxhx
China183 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 20:58 Timebon3s wrote: Didnt expect Bisu to lose there tbh. Whatever happened to storm drops? I Remember back in the day, Bisu storm dropped zergs nonstop. Dragoons glitch. You need zealot archons to maneuver in tight corners as in that polestar shit map. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
HAHA right on cue, he splashes down a whole bunch of them. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:11 Timebon3s wrote: Ok Bisu, lets play this like we played Andromeda. Corsair+reaver into dweb and carriers. Lets go! Thanks for listening, Bisu! | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
Carriers Carriers | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:10 imperator-xy wrote: Well, maybe he somehow manages to get game 5 :-( This is bisu, corsair dt creator. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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gravity
Australia1969 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
>against scourge and hydras bisu you damn mad man | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
If you've watched bisu play this strategy 15 years ago, it looked fucking unbeatable | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
alright devourers incoming | ||
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3815 Posts
ensnare and devourers will just murder this | ||
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gravity
Australia1969 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
3053 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3815 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:22 mtcn77 wrote: Damn, these casters are bad. Acid spores doesn't debuff armor by 9, it does by 27. Do you not see mutalisks with three strike glaive wyrms? isn't it 1 per spore? | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:22 konadora wrote: protosses still underestimate how painful acid spore is If you see even the casters are underestimating them... Acid spore debuffed glaive wyrms do 40 base damage! | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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TMNT
2944 Posts
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Kespa1988
62 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:23 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: i think this is game, bisu can't win against zerg air at this rate It was a nonstarter. This looks like a campaign mission, lol. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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gravity
Australia1969 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
"kim taek yong are you really going to starve in this dimension?" | ||
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durachok
13 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:30 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: devourers are too damn tanky They're FAT! | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4932 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
Why did you listen, Bisu. I'm F rank noob. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:31 durachok wrote: wouldn't go that far but that first air fight was so catastrophic.Bisu would win 100% if he did not lose his first fleet | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13064 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Simplistik
2081 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia396 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8554 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:34 Rainalcar wrote: This is the only way for P to win a long game on this map. He had a chance, first fight went terribly. No way, soma can always split his devourers, or target interceptors first whichever was attacking soma first. You cannot run away from acid spores, or concentrate on the bulk of devourers with corsairs. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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!Gr33zyPuG!
Philippines27 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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VioleTAK
4338 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4932 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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Zergxhx
China183 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia396 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:38 mtcn77 wrote: No way, soma can always split his devourers, or target interceptors first whichever was attacking soma first. You cannot run away from acid spores, or concentrate on the bulk of devourers with corsairs. If you don't go air it's gonna be hive plus islands, no chance. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
But I guess you can also say the same for Soma on Dominator. | ||
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!Gr33zyPuG!
Philippines27 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:50 Rainalcar wrote: If you don't go air it's gonna be hive plus islands, no chance. You can always pool zealots and archons and charge over the map. This isn't guardians you are fighting against. Use that to your advantage. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States1865 Posts
On October 13 2025 23:37 LightSpectra wrote: Bisu 4:3 Soma with a zealot rush on the final map Let my aim be true | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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!Gr33zyPuG!
Philippines27 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
I don't want to watch another series of Zerg cheesing protoss with 50/50 all in's >< | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:55 !Gr33zyPuG! wrote: Not liking P's odds on Litmus yeah He survived his best vs soulkey moment on knockout. I'd just leave it up to him at this point. | ||
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Simplistik
2081 Posts
So, what's gonna happen next? Will Bisu suddenly remember that he is the greatest Protoss player of all time? Will soma manage to forget that he is a non-pro outsider with no title to his name yet? | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:55 Gorsameth wrote: Come on Bisu, you can do this. I don't want to watch another series of Zerg cheesing protoss with 50/50 all in's >< One man's trash is another's treasure. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Simplistik
2081 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4932 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States1865 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
bring out the bucket, but this time its for genuine heartbreak for bisu's fans. | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3815 Posts
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4932 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway733 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines378 Posts
he's like mini in a way with this game; when in doubt, cheese | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
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VioleTAK
4338 Posts
GG | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia396 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/btbej.jpg) | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
But I think Soma will be decently favoured over Snow. Snow just isn’t great vs Zergs. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia396 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:08 RowdierBob wrote: I think Snow would’ve wrecked Bisu so prob makes for a closer matchup in the final. But I think Soma will be decently favoured over Snow. Snow just isn’t great vs Zergs. No P is great vs Z. The stats are clear | ||
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barcodejester
50 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:03 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: welp, snow's nightmare has come true That's right! Soma is taking his rightful place in the golden throne. | ||
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oxKnu
1210 Posts
Bisu did pretty well and he again showed that he is still an elite PvZ player and IMO Snow would've had a battle on his hands in the finals if Bisu came through. Bisu is one hell of a PvPer as well. Soma, well he is just reduced to a poor man's SK. SK is a genius, so whoever does that is going to automatically be a great player. Probably has a 50/50 chance in the finals, Snow is more vulnerable to cheeses and bait builds than Bisu but he will be better prepared. | ||
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Zergxhx
China183 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21912 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:10 evilfatsh1t wrote: But is it a Zergling all-in? is it Hydra? it is Muta?i gotta say though i think bisu should have done better. it was obvious soma was going to all in rather than play eco in more games than not. he should have thought about a ling bust once he saw the early gas and thought to leave a probe at the entrance. And if your to defensive then Zerg just goes super greedy and takes the map and macros you to death. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44915 Posts
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Simplistik
2081 Posts
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Simplistik
2081 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:11 oxKnu wrote: That G7 ruined what was a pretty good series. Bisu did pretty well and he again showed that he is still an elite PvZ player and IMO Snow would've had a battle on his hands in the finals if Bisu came through. Bisu is one hell of a PvPer as well. Soma, well he is just reduced to a poor man's SK. SK is a genius, so whoever does that is going to automatically be a great player. Probably has a 50/50 chance in the finals, Snow is more vulnerable to cheeses and bait builds than Bisu but he will be better prepared. LOL, he is better than Soulkey. Remember I told everyone FE Nexus is bad and everyone rebuked my statement? See? FE is literal 1-0 vs zerg. You cannot give map control to zerg in the early game. You cannot lose a probe, you cannot stop scouting, nor can you FE and throw in the towel like bisu did. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6715 Posts
All in all this was pretty much my Prediction. Snow vs Soma final. I have Soma taking it 4-2 What a brain fart lmao. Effort already won ASLs for CJ.. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:17 RowdierBob wrote: Hopefully snow can build on Bisu’s play today. I think the Roaring Curremt strategy has legs. Just needs some small refinements like adding storm. Scouting is really vital and be prepared for many mutas. Except it had wings. I said it and I will say it again. Forget everything. Play as if you are at the beginning of the millenium. Make zealots, make archons, forget about mutas, forget FE. Just bust zerg bases left and right and win. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:16 Gorsameth wrote: But is it a Zergling all-in? is it Hydra? it is Muta? And if your to defensive then Zerg just goes super greedy and takes the map and macros you to death. Sending Zealot out is normal in PvZ, can't blame any P for doing that. Otherwise do you want to sit until you have enough Zealots to plug the gaps? That's an intrinsic problem of this matchup no matter what map design you go with. Protoss can never be risk free. But Bisu's reaction time seems slow though. He had enough time to pull probes once the zealot sees the lings. I'm not sure if that's enough though but it'd increase his chance to win significantly. What a shame because in this series he has shown he's the better player, but when your opponent's level is high enough, you can't beat both the man and the matchup. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:24 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: could catch the last 2 games. Are the first games worth watching ? Sucks for Bisu to end this way. just 1 freaking game to make it to the finals ruin by that silly all in. I kinda think he deserves it tho cuz he saw how early Soma took his gaz, But yeah im not sure what he was doing with that zealot and why he didnt even bother to block for early speed ling timings. Maybe nerves got the best of him in that last game. Happy for Soma. An ex CJ player will win the ASL for the first time if im not mistaken. Snow has a lot of material to study tho. If i was SNow i will just quit streaming till the finals and grind 24/7 lol. But we are in a different era and im sure both of the end will most likely keep playing proleagues and playing each other till the Final. All in all this was pretty much my Prediction. Snow vs Soma final. I have Soma taking it 4-2 Both games are good. + Show Spoiler + 1st game is ogre zerg 2nd game is clutch two base push It is classic bisu open ramp zerg overextension bait bad unit composition | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:16 Gorsameth wrote: But is it a Zergling all-in? is it Hydra? it is Muta? And if your to defensive then Zerg just goes super greedy and takes the map and macros you to death. well you wouldnt hydra all in off such an early gas. even for mutas that gas was too early. youre right about pvz generally with your second statement but the theme for this series has generally been that if bisu can overcome the early game aggression he will most likely win. bisus bane was his own obssession with his optimisation that he didnt want to let a probe or two sit idle i guess. it could just be that bisu is old. if he pulled probes as soon as he saw the zerglings following his zealot i think he could have held. maybe age/fatigue kicked in and he just reacted slow | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4220 Posts
Kinda sick of this matchup, honestly. It really is just bullshit. Whatever.. GGs. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 23:03 M3t4PhYzX wrote: What a damn shame. Kinda sick of this matchup, honestly. It really is just bullshit. Whatever.. GGs. You cannot lose track of history. Zerg players can trace their lineage back to july. It is time protoss players can do the same. Bisu was mocked as playing an "old school 1 base play". The caster callously said it was as old as it comes, yet bisu won that game... I think you guys need a head transplant. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4220 Posts
soma to beat SnOw 4-2 in the Grand Final, imo. Hopefully I'm wrong, by the way. But it's going to be a really tough one for our Protoss warrior to win. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
i feel bad for bisu but , at least, my LB is safe !! | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
On October 14 2025 23:11 mtcn77 wrote: You cannot lose track of history. Zerg players can trace their lineage back to july. It is time protoss players can do the same. Bisu was mocked as playing an "old school 1 base play". The caster callously said it was as old as it comes, yet bisu won that game... I think you guys need a head transplant. wtf are you talking about? every thing youve posted in this thread seems to be some rambling that just doesnt make sense | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1865 Posts
On October 14 2025 23:24 evilfatsh1t wrote: wtf are you talking about? every thing youve posted in this thread seems to be some rambling that just doesnt make sense Just ignore him, he's either trolling or Dunning-Kruger'd his way into thinking he knows the meta better than the pros. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 23:24 evilfatsh1t wrote: wtf are you talking about? every thing youve posted in this thread seems to be some rambling that just doesnt make sense I'm talking about game 3. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 14 2025 23:27 LightSpectra wrote: Just ignore him, he's either trolling or Dunning-Kruger'd his way into thinking he knows the meta better than the pros. Aren't we all in the betting system? | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3336 Posts
oh well hope snow wins in the finals It does feel like the Protoss is really left guessing a lot and has to defend multiple possibilities before they can take the initiative against Zergs | ||
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Bonyth
Poland577 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:37 TMNT wrote: Sending Zealot out is normal in PvZ, can't blame any P for doing that. Otherwise do you want to sit until you have enough Zealots to plug the gaps? That's an intrinsic problem of this matchup no matter what map design you go with. Protoss can never be risk free. But Bisu's reaction time seems slow though. He had enough time to pull probes once the zealot sees the lings. I'm not sure if that's enough though but it'd increase his chance to win significantly. What a shame because in this series he has shown he's the better player, but when your opponent's level is high enough, you can't beat both the man and the matchup. Probably that's why he didn't pull probes ![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/a/zRKT5HG) https://imgur.com/a/zRKT5HG This is what i call, a 1.5 zlot gap. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia929 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
3053 Posts
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 14 2025 23:38 Bonyth wrote: Probably that's why he didn't pull probes https://imgur.com/a/zRKT5HG This is what i call, a 1.5 zlot gap. This explains everything then. Watching it live I thought the probe pull was bizarrely slow it's almost like match fixing. But with this kind of gap it's just not reliable you can position the Zealot right with one click. Not sure why he had to walk on such a thin line like this. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 00:09 TMNT wrote: This explains everything then. Watching it live I thought the probe pull was bizarrely slow it's almost like match fixing. But with this kind of gap it's just not reliable you can position the Zealot right with one click. Not sure why he had to walk on such a thin line like this. It was FE. I told you you cannot win with FE. Game 3 he didn't FE. You are literally giving zerg a free win. You cannot clutch from a FE start. | ||
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Kraekkling
472 Posts
I feel like Soma thought he won game 2 for sure but then overextended, clutch come back from Bisu. The game on Roaring Currents was insightful since now we've seen that Z has a conceptual counter to Carrier/Sair, as long as P stays on air only. I wonder what happens if P doesn't attack at ~160supply but instead adds HTs to the army composition before forcing the fight. The last game was obviously somewhat anticlimatic but the loss is on Bisu - he was playing blindly after his scouting probe died and by now everyone should expect Soma to be ready to pull the trigger in early game ZvP. IMO its similar for PvZ, ZvT and TvP - as long as you can't rule out certain cheeses/timings, you must play in a way that is safe vs everything. Its just how these matchups work. | ||
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Kraekkling
472 Posts
Bisu saw that Soma made at least 6 lings, so the Zealot cannot cross the map and threaten anything. And since 6 lings were already made, the move out also won't trigger any additional ling production. Why is it moving out? The Zealots job is to sit home and close the wall....+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/nsPYZXFk/asd.png) | ||
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Bonyth
Poland577 Posts
On October 15 2025 01:12 Kraekkling wrote: Great series overall, very aggressive from both sides. Notice how we didn't see a regular long game with hive tech and fully upgraded armies. I feel like Soma thought he won game 2 for sure but then overextended, clutch come back from Bisu. The game on Roaring Currents was insightful since now we've seen that Z has a conceptual counter to Carrier/Sair, as long as P stays on air only. I wonder what happens if P doesn't attack at ~160supply but instead adds HTs to the army composition before forcing the fight. The last game was obviously somewhat anticlimatic but the loss is on Bisu - he was playing blindly after his scouting probe died and by now everyone should expect Soma to be ready to pull the trigger in early game ZvP. IMO its similar for PvZ, ZvT and TvP - as long as you can't rule out certain cheeses/timings, you must play in a way that is safe vs everything. Its just how these matchups work. On Roaring Currents you could stop watching after the initial attack with carriers / sairs vs muta / devourers, where ALL (like 18+) corsairs got instantly maximum ammount of acid spores (9). This changed the dynamics of the match up a lot and it lead to Bisu's loss. Compare later engagements to see how poorly that 1 fight went for Bisu. | ||
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Kraekkling
472 Posts
On October 15 2025 02:00 Bonyth wrote: On Roaring Currents you could stop watching after the initial attack with carriers / sairs vs muta / devourers, where ALL (like 18+) corsairs got instantly maximum ammount of acid spores (9). This changed the dynamics of the match up a lot and it lead to Bisu's loss. Compare later engagements to see how poorly that 1 fight went for Bisu. yea I fully agree that the game was over after that first engage, thats why I wrote that I wonder what happens if Bisu gets HTs first before forcing the decisive engagement | ||
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iopq
United States973 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:47 evilfatsh1t wrote: well you wouldnt hydra all in off such an early gas. even for mutas that gas was too early. youre right about pvz generally with your second statement but the theme for this series has generally been that if bisu can overcome the early game aggression he will most likely win. bisus bane was his own obssession with his optimisation that he didnt want to let a probe or two sit idle i guess. it could just be that bisu is old. if he pulled probes as soon as he saw the zerglings following his zealot i think he could have held. maybe age/fatigue kicked in and he just reacted slow That's not true, you can 2 hatch muta or 2 hatch hydra with that gas timing Or just speed into hydra bust, the speed denies counter play | ||
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iopq
United States973 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:24 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: could catch the last 2 games. Are the first games worth watching ? Sucks for Bisu to end this way. just 1 freaking game to make it to the finals ruin by that silly all in. I kinda think he deserves it tho cuz he saw how early Soma took his gaz, But yeah im not sure what he was doing with that zealot and why he didnt even bother to block for early speed ling timings. Maybe nerves got the best of him in that last game. Happy for Soma. An ex CJ player will win the ASL for the first time if im not mistaken. Snow has a lot of material to study tho. If i was SNow i will just quit streaming till the finals and grind 24/7 lol. But we are in a different era and im sure both of the end will most likely keep playing proleagues and playing each other till the Final. All in all this was pretty much my Prediction. Snow vs Soma final. I have Soma taking it 4-2 Best series of the tournament so far | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 14 2025 21:24 TMNT wrote: See @Rogue, Carriers don't work either. Bisu took no damage in early and mid game, killed a bunch of Overlords, but that's nowhere near enough for Carriers to beat Zerg on this map. A key difference between this game and the linked game was that Bisu used his Reavers to harass in the daily proleague game but sat back with them in this game. Yes, he killed a bunch of overlords, but he wasn't keeping on the pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but mass mutalisks and invest in air armor for the inevitable Devourer transition. Maybe it still wouldn't matter, but I don't think that was even close to perfect play from Bisu. I wonder if investing in High Templar could have helped, but even if you cut the resources invested in Disruption Web, getting to Storm feels like it would take forever, so probably not. In an alternate world in which one of the "land" bases on each side is mineral only, is the map better for Protoss? Giving Zerg four gases for free is likely part of the problem. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
543 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 01:51 Kraekkling wrote: I can't even think of a single reason to move out with that Zealot? Bisu saw that Soma made at least 6 lings, so the Zealot cannot cross the map and threaten anything. And since 6 lings were already made, the move out also won't trigger any additional ling production. Why is it moving out? The Zealots job is to sit home and close the wall....+ Show Spoiler + That is a feint. Bisu faked an early move out. Obviously, soma didn't fall for it. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 04:13 RogueTheGOAT wrote: A key difference between this game and the linked game was that Bisu used his Reavers to harass in the daily proleague game but sat back with them in this game. Yes, he killed a bunch of overlords, but he wasn't keeping on the pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but mass mutalisks and invest in air armor for the inevitable Devourer transition. Maybe it still wouldn't matter, but I don't think that was even close to perfect play from Bisu. I wonder if investing in High Templar could have helped, but even if you cut the resources invested in Disruption Web, getting to Storm feels like it would take forever, so probably not. In an alternate world in which one of the "land" bases on each side is mineral only, is the map better for Protoss? Giving Zerg four gases for free is likely part of the problem. It is a perfect tragedy protoss players put themselves through. They know they cannot overextend on resources and ought to run a tight ship macroing on roaring currents, yet they keep playing on the offensive. They know they should defend from zerg air hoping to see an even greater zerg air expenditure while they should focus on taking out zerg bases from the ground, yet they keep fighting unnecessary engagements and trying to eclipse over zerg air where no ground forces cover for them. This day could have been the legend of the fall, yet here we witness zerg coming back from the ashes. All I did was try to explain: this high economy play does not foster protoss victories. You cannot defeat the zerg on open plains, however you can take out their bases with relative ease. Zerg has NO base redundancies, any building lost costs zerg 1 drone and 1 less drone is 1 less unit engaging you in the zerg swarm. Protoss players are trying to slay the hydra from the end of its tail. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 15 2025 04:13 RogueTheGOAT wrote: A key difference between this game and the linked game was that Bisu used his Reavers to harass in the daily proleague game but sat back with them in this game. Yes, he killed a bunch of overlords, but he wasn't keeping on the pressure to force the Zerg player to do anything but mass mutalisks and invest in air armor for the inevitable Devourer transition. Maybe it still wouldn't matter, but I don't think that was even close to perfect play from Bisu. I wonder if investing in High Templar could have helped, but even if you cut the resources invested in Disruption Web, getting to Storm feels like it would take forever, so probably not. In an alternate world in which one of the "land" bases on each side is mineral only, is the map better for Protoss? Giving Zerg four gases for free is likely part of the problem. Yes. And what caused that difference is that Soma defended with Hydras + Burrow (while Hero contested Bisu with Mutas), making the potential of Reaver harass null. I think since that Bisu vs Hero game, Z has figured out there's no point contesting the double Stargate with air, which makes sense (in normal maps, you'd want to counter double Stargate with Hydra build, not Muta). Basically, if Reavers can do some damage to Z early on (like Bisu vs Hero), P has the chance to win. If not, it's just a lost build. If I'm not mistaken Bisu produced like 1 Zealot and 0 Dragoon all game? I doubt he can have both Carriers and HTs soon enough, when it still matters. I was thinking if this map only had 3 land bases for each Zerg probably can't camp like that, but it'll also likely swing the favor too much for Protoss. 4 bases with 3 gas seems more reasonable, although I have no idea how that would play out. But it's probably a moot point anyway. It's not gonna be there next season lol. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 05:36 TMNT wrote: Yes. And what caused that difference is that Soma defended with Hydras + Burrow (while Hero contested Bisu with Mutas), making the potential of Reaver harass null. I think since that Bisu vs Hero game, Z has figured out there's no point contesting the double Stargate with air, which makes sense (in normal maps, you'd want to counter double Stargate with Hydra build, not Muta). Basically, if Reavers can do some damage to Z early on (like Bisu vs Hero), P has the chance to win. If not, it's just a lost build. If I'm not mistaken Bisu produced like 1 Zealot and 0 Dragoon all game? I doubt he can have both Carriers and HTs soon enough, when it still matters. I was thinking if this map only had 3 land bases for each Zerg probably can't camp like that, but it'll also likely swing the favor too much for Protoss. 4 bases with 3 gas seems more reasonable, although I have no idea how that would play out. But it's probably a moot point anyway. It's not gonna be there next season lol. That is like saying if zerg plays from a disadvantage protoss can win. Zerg does not have to skip hydralisks and make one of the most costly midgame units. There are even further developments on zerg front playing hydralisks and queens vs protoss. What you guys miss is protoss is strong for defence, weak for offense. There are no weak protoss units, however making their cost worth their while is where you struggle. This isn't a campaign mission where you map out the entire tech tree. Everytime you open a new advanced building, you are losing time. I'm not saying go for dragoons and zealots, but do either HTs, or reavers only. If you make corsairs which is wrong as I tell why, don't make a fleet beacon and reavers simultaneously. If you push Dwebs you are bankrolling zerg doing the same. If zerg can advance to greater spire and make devourers you have to ask what the hell happened in this game that got out of control. PS: it has been two seasons and you are still making map excuses for the protoss. | ||
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Highgamer
1439 Posts
for Protoss Bisu must be crushed. Shouldn't P insta pull some probes from the main in this scenario? Just a few more bodies/DPS can make a difference. It's do or die anyway, not the time to think ahead. | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 15 2025 05:36 TMNT wrote: Yes. And what caused that difference is that Soma defended with Hydras + Burrow (while Hero contested Bisu with Mutas), making the potential of Reaver harass null. I think since that Bisu vs Hero game, Z has figured out there's no point contesting the double Stargate with air, which makes sense (in normal maps, you'd want to counter double Stargate with Hydra build, not Muta). Basically, if Reavers can do some damage to Z early on (like Bisu vs Hero), P has the chance to win. If not, it's just a lost build. If I'm not mistaken Bisu produced like 1 Zealot and 0 Dragoon all game? I doubt he can have both Carriers and HTs soon enough, when it still matters. I was thinking if this map only had 3 land bases for each Zerg probably can't camp like that, but it'll also likely swing the favor too much for Protoss. 4 bases with 3 gas seems more reasonable, although I have no idea how that would play out. But it's probably a moot point anyway. It's not gonna be there next season lol. I'm not sure I agree that a player on 4 bases cannot be subject to Reaver harass because that's just way too much space to defend. The burrowed hydras at the natural expansion showed that soma was at least worried about it. Of course, if they jumped on a hypothetical shuttle, the game could probably end because he'd hydra bust right afterward. I wonder how Bisu's practice games on the map went because I can't imagine that Corsair harass straight into 3 Stargate Carrier and have literally no ground units cross to your opponent's side of the map outside of the initial scouting probe and zealot is the ideal way to play. But maybe the game ends up in the exact same place if the Zerg player never fears a significant ground attack. Yes, reaver harass might delay the Zerg air transition, but unless it delays it more than the Protoss's air transition, that doesn't get you anywhere. I'd love to see Roaring Currents 2.0 because the map is arguably in the running for the most balanced "weird" map they've done in years. Compare it to something like Sparkle whose 43.3% win rate in PvT was by far its most balanced match up. | ||
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seodoth
Netherlands318 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 06:39 RogueTheGOAT wrote: I'm not sure I agree that a player on 4 bases cannot be subject to Reaver harass because that's just way too much space to defend. The burrowed hydras at the natural expansion showed that soma was at least worried about it. Of course, if they jumped on a hypothetical shuttle, the game could probably end because he'd hydra bust right afterward. I wonder how Bisu's practice games on the map went because I can't imagine that Corsair harass straight into 3 Stargate Carrier and have literally no ground units cross to your opponent's side of the map outside of the initial scouting probe and zealot is the ideal way to play. But maybe the game ends up in the exact same place if the Zerg player never fears a significant ground attack. Yes, reaver harass might delay the Zerg air transition, but unless it delays it more than the Protoss's air transition, that doesn't get you anywhere. I'd love to see Roaring Currents 2.0 because the map is arguably in the running for the most balanced "weird" map they've done in years. Compare it to something like Sparkle whose 43.3% win rate in PvT was by far its most balanced match up. Along with 76 I do believe it is going to be a staple going forward. If it presents a challenge it presents it for everybody. Maybe they could verify base distances to be equal to all expansions, but it is a good 2 base map. What I worry is 4 base maps - roaring currents went just the way we expected it to be. 4 player maps proved to be less consistent in my opinion. You could argue well then just scout more, but I don't want to watch coin toss games. Reaver harass kinda requires the shuttle upgrade and it throws the rush into late game territory. Without it, it is one of the faster techs out there since reaver tech finishes first in the whole tech tree. Reavers are available at 119 seconds from the start of cybernetics core. HTs at 189s, shuttles with gravitic thrusters at 211 seconds. By comparison, mutalisks are available at 139 seconds starting from lair. You need something to wedge in between your tech and zerg's tech tree.(that would be archons at 113.4s) | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 15 2025 07:20 mtcn77 wrote: Along with 76 I do believe it is going to be a staple going forward. If it presents a challenge it presents it for everybody. Maybe they could verify base distances to be equal to all expansions, but it is a good 2 base map. What I worry is 4 base maps - roaring currents went just the way we expected it to be. 4 player maps proved to be less consistent in my opinion. You could argue well then just scout more, but I don't want to watch coin toss games. Reaver harass kinda requires the shuttle upgrade and it throws the rush into late game territory. Without it, it is one of the faster techs out there since reaver tech finishes first in the whole tech tree. Reavers are available at 119 seconds from the start of cybernetics core. HTs at 189s, shuttles with gravitic thrusters at 211 seconds. By comparison, mutalisks are available at 139 seconds starting from lair. You need something to wedge in between your tech and zerg's tech tree.(that would be archons at 113.4s) 1) Literally no meaningful tournament will ever use 76 again, nor should they. PvT has a 70.5% win rate on the map. 2) 76 was last used 2.5 years ago. 3) Please never agree with anything I say about anything. When I can decipher the gibberish you're writing, you're unfailingly wrong, so when you agree with me, I have to take a hard look at whatever I said. | ||
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kevva
Sweden86 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 08:58 RogueTheGOAT wrote: 1) Literally no meaningful tournament will ever use 76 again, nor should they. PvT has a 70.5% win rate on the map. 2) 76 was last used 2.5 years ago. 3) Please never agree with anything I say about anything. When I can decipher the gibberish you're writing, you're unfailingly wrong, so when you agree with me, I have to take a hard look at whatever I said. It is 70.5% pvt because it got played so few times. Every game on 76 was a blockbuster. Death Valley was 69% in tvz, 63.5% in pvz, 52% in pvt. I don't see you cheering for its return. Agreeing with you must be a daydream of yours. I only responded to you in kind just because you found it plausible to respond to the threat of an imminent mutalisk rush by making reavers as inconsistent as it sounds. I guess being nice pointing out the time sequence incongruity of that argument doesn't wisen you up along with the fellow you are discussing with who doesn't know the difference from soma's play and hero's play styles comparing them to one another as inconsistent as they are, but what do you know! The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. 3) I hope you got it this time. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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so0willprevail
6 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5 That is what I have been thinking. Force zerg to make guardians, make it blunder due to the huge gas cost. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2593 Posts
Soma made what I deem a risky all-in play against a very clutch/defensively minded Bisu. He went lings all-in banking everything on (1) bisu misreading a fake 9-7-3, (2) due to 1, bisu skimping on defense to race up the tech tree and econ-wise, (3) driving out / killing a bisu probe (which is near impossibru) But I feel confident in SnOw taking the finals, so long as he plays very prudently against Soma without double the usual scouting. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19288 Posts
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 15 2025 09:49 so0willprevail wrote: Too bad Bisu didn’t get Maelsteom vs Zerg mass air. Really think he would’ve won game 5 Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200 650 / 600 and 2:19. I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit. I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7813 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 10:28 RogueTheGOAT wrote: Getting Maelstrom would have required: Citadel of Adun - 150/100 - 38 seconds Templar Archives - 150/200 - 38 seconds Malestrom - 100/100 - 63 seconds 2 Dark Templar - 250/200 650 / 600 and 2:19. I'm pretty sure there aren't 650 / 600 from Bisu's build that could be cut (Disruption Web is 200/200) to have it in time for the first major air battle which is when he lost the game, so realistically, getting a Dark Archon pushes the attack later which I'm not sure helps the Protoss player unless they get a magical hit. I'm pretty sure if soma saw a Dark Archon, he just takes his air fleet and systematically destroys all of the island bases and never gives Bisu the fight he's looking for. You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg. Dweb costs 850/550, takes 170s. I didn't account for necessary corsairs on top of that. It is next to impossible fighting zerg from tech that is so wasteful. PS: for comparison maelstrom single DA costs 850/600 183s(including accumulation of +50 base mana) since you need to count CC, too. PS: get this you need 126s time after stargate finishes just to have a corsair with 125 mana(100.8s). That is 1000/650 208s in total. | ||
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Lazyer
United States364 Posts
On October 14 2025 22:06 RowdierBob wrote: 😭😭😭 | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 15 2025 10:50 mtcn77 wrote: You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg. Dweb costs 850/550, takes 170s. I didn't account for necessary corsairs on top of that. It is next to impossible fighting zerg from tech that is so wasteful. PS: for comparison maelstrom single DA costs 850/600 183s(including accumulation of +50 base mana) since you need to count CC, too. PS: get this you need 126s time after stargate finishes just to have a corsair with 125 mana(100.8s). That is 1000/650 208s in total. You're including the cost of the Cyber Core? In that case, you have to add the Pylon (100), Gateway (150), and Assimilator (100) because you obviously wouldn't be getting any of those if you're not going for Dark Archons. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 15 2025 11:18 RogueTheGOAT wrote: You're including the cost of the Cyber Core? In that case, you have to add the Pylon (100), Gateway (150), and Assimilator (100) because you obviously wouldn't be getting any of those if you're not going for Dark Archons. You don't have to include those since they are essential, not optional. I counted CC since it is the first basic tech building protoss has. On October 15 2025 10:50 mtcn77 wrote: You give the island maps to zerg. You don't make air. Stop playing pvz like it is zvz. You don't have to have air in order to bust zerg. Dweb costs 850/550, takes 170s. I regained my train of thought. At 170.8s, you have your first reaver with 5 scarabs in bay, or in other words at 169.6s you have your reaver loaded up in your shuttle on its way to the zerg base. Not smart, but some people want to fight scourge with shuttle reaver. I cannot judge them. PS: reaver+5scarabs with shuttle is 1225/600 169.6s. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
3053 Posts
On October 15 2025 10:25 BisuDagger wrote: Damn what a series. I’m so proud of how Bisu played this season. Typical ending unfortunately. Feels like he always loses to ling all-ins. In all seriousness, Bisu did play well and it's hard not to root for the guy. Some of his games didn't look super great before the start of the season, or maybe I just caught him at bad times, but he rallied like a boss. Honestly, he could have won this series pretty handily. Parking his corsairs in g1 and losing all 3 during that ogre zerg and then losing his air fleet early on roaring currents were pretty big blunders. After all that it still came to a g7. This was one of the better series of the tournament. Hydra muta is super lean and doesn't slow the game down, which is fun to watch. GGs | ||
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Sabu113
United States11070 Posts
Snow getting his first ASL over a Zerg will be sublime. | ||
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Kyle8
29 Posts
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Soft_General_5023
77 Posts
On October 15 2025 16:15 Kyle8 wrote: What is Snow vs Soma h2h record in recent weeks? Soma has 173 wins, 111 losses vs Snow "all time" according to eloboard. Since he came back from military in July it's pretty much even 21 wins 22 losses Soma is still favorite to win though imo. | ||
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moktira
Ireland1545 Posts
Been a huge Bisu fan since 2007 so very disappointed in the outcome, he was looking great the last few games so was hoping he'd get through. At least this spares us from a PvP final. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5165 Posts
On October 15 2025 18:21 moktira wrote: Very disappointing ending to an otherwise great series. Reminds of the GOM TV invitational thing after the first two GOM TV Classics where they invited Bisu to play Jaedong as the winners of the first two tournaments to play each other, it was an epic series until the last game where Jaedong gets lings through Bisu's ramp block and it ends massively anticlimactically. Been a huge Bisu fan since 2007 so very disappointed in the outcome, he was looking great the last few games so was hoping he'd get through. At least this spares us from a PvP final. Yeah... The wet hair invitational lmao. Ironically JD admitted Bisu was the stronger player in the winner interview, Bisu just failed to block his ramp... This Bo7 was better imo, just less hyped. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
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oxKnu
1210 Posts
On October 15 2025 16:55 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Soma has 173 wins, 111 losses vs Snow "all time" according to eloboard. Since he came back from military in July it's pretty much even 21 wins 22 losses Soma is still favorite to win though imo. If Soma tries to play slow and invites Snow into the late-game I think he will have some serious trouble. IMO, if a Zerg reaches the finals against a P that is not a true strategist (so basically only in-shape Rain from the current era) he should play a complete bait-and-switch/all-in style. There is no point in dragging games out (unless it's a weird game state or a bizarre map). Most P's that will ever reach a final are competent enough to go 50/50 over Zergs in long games, simply letting them get there is unnecessary risk. I say this because of the added pressure of the finals, a Zerg that completely goes spastic is a terrible matchup for a P that just tries to get a grip of the series for most of the time. I think Soma will do this anyway but just stating the obvious here. | ||
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Ideas
United States8136 Posts
On October 15 2025 18:49 Peeano wrote: Yeah... The wet hair invitational lmao. Ironically JD admitted Bisu was the stronger player in the winner interview, Bisu just failed to block his ramp... This Bo7 was better imo, just less hyped. Reminds me of how during kespa until like 2009 there were so many cool invitationals going on. Snickers all-stars, Shinhan masters, Gomtv Invitational (first tournament that tasteless casted live entire time I think? It was definitely what got me interested in BW as an esport). Would love to see a ASL Masters to celebrate 20 seasons. Invite every winner and put them in random groups, use a mix of maps from every season. | ||
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Highways
Australia6104 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
ultimately its his fault but i would be giga tilted to lose to that after he had specifically tested that it worked. hes under a fair bit of fire atm because he didnt stay around to sign autographs after the match. he says he was too devastated that he didnt think he would be able to do fan service with a straight face. edit: to be more accurate about the probes, he thought his reaction was already too slow in pulling them and he didnt want to risk defending the entrance with probes to inadvertently create further gaps for zerglings to runby into the nat or main. | ||
GTR
51489 Posts
On October 15 2025 18:21 moktira wrote: Very disappointing ending to an otherwise great series. Reminds of the GOM TV invitational thing after the first two GOM TV Classics where they invited Bisu to play Jaedong as the winners of the first two tournaments to play each other, it was an epic series until the last game where Jaedong gets lings through Bisu's ramp block and it ends massively anticlimactically. Been a huge Bisu fan since 2007 so very disappointed in the outcome, he was looking great the last few games so was hoping he'd get through. At least this spares us from a PvP final. ITS CALLED HOLD POSITION BRO | ||
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GTR
51489 Posts
On October 16 2025 03:10 Ideas wrote: Reminds me of how during kespa until like 2009 there were so many cool invitationals going on. Snickers all-stars, Shinhan masters, Gomtv Invitational (first tournament that tasteless casted live entire time I think? It was definitely what got me interested in BW as an esport). Would love to see a ASL Masters to celebrate 20 seasons. Invite every winner and put them in random groups, use a mix of maps from every season. blame kespa oversaturing the market with proleague and burning out the players and teams | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3120 Posts
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goody153
44219 Posts
Roaring Current and semi-island maps are so great. They kinda actually open up the game. That fucking Carrier-Corsair vs Devourer-muta fight was nuts. Although i'm not sure why Bisu dived into a really terrible position vs Devourer Corsair like clearly it looked like Carrier-Corsair could beat Devourer-Muta with proper micro + spell casters. Where tf was the storms and maybe dark archons there it would would've made that a deathball that zerg had to kite instead of just bash their head. There is definitely so much potential with semi-island maps for sure That final game is funny. Soma just went zergling speed all-in lol | ||
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goody153
44219 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8437 Posts
On October 16 2025 23:45 goody153 wrote: Snow vs Soma is like the ideal finals. They both havent won an ASL, right ? It's basically perfect the considered strongest player of the season and them fighting for their first ASL championship yeap, they haven't won so far an ASL trophy! | ||
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G5
United States2909 Posts
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CHEONSOYUN
543 Posts
On October 17 2025 00:13 G5 wrote: From a Protoss' perspective, Soma is scary AF. He's the type of Zerg Protoss' fear. Extremely abusive, extremely aggressive, extremely decisive, extreme tech switches, extremely momentum-driven, and extremely knowledgeable as to how Protoss will respond to what they're scouting. He's just a beast. The first 9-12 minutes vs Soma looks like an utter nightmare from a Protoss' perspective. it’ll be interesting to see how well snow can play vs soma. bisu does a great job at consistently scouting zerg at all stages of the game. losing the probe in the 7th game cost him. i don’t know how snow will try to combat soma’s information warfare | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
159 Posts
On October 17 2025 00:20 CHEONSOYUN wrote: it’ll be interesting to see how well snow can play vs soma. bisu does a great job at consistently scouting zerg at all stages of the game. losing the probe in the 7th game cost him. i don’t know how snow will try to combat soma’s information warfare He has 3 choices: 1) Scout 2) Play so aggressive that it doesn't matter what his opponent is doing because he's setting the tone for the game 3) Lose | ||
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Miragee
8570 Posts
I stay corrected regarding protoss air btw. Yes, Bisu didn't add scouts, which I'm sure would have helped, and he made the mistake of attacking instead of holding the islands. But holy did his air fleet get destroyed by devourer/muta/scourge in the first fight... I didn't expect that. On October 17 2025 01:13 RogueTheGOAT wrote: He has 3 choices: 1) Scout 2) Play so aggressive that it doesn't matter what his opponent is doing because he's setting the tone for the game 3) Lose I don't think Snow is up for 2) so it's 1) or 3), most likely 3)... | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 01:41 Miragee wrote: Is it just me or is the general amount of sloppiness very high in this season? These semi finals were full of major mistakes. More like games you would expect during the qualifier or Ro24. But even the Ro24 was better on average. blegh At least this series had a couple exciting games. Too bad Soma won. Although I prefer a PvZ final, it will just be like TMNT said and a zerg will just snipe Ps to another ASL title... I just don't see Snow beating Soma and having watched their recent performances I'm not looking forward to finals either way so I would have prefered to just take a protoss champion and move on... I stay corrected regarding protoss air btw. Yes, Bisu didn't add scouts, which I'm sure would have helped, and he made the mistake of attacking instead of holding the islands. But holy did his air fleet get destroyed by devourer/muta/scourge in the first fight... I didn't expect that. I don't think Snow is up for 2) so it's 1) or 3), most likely 3)... Unfortunately it wouldn't. You can stack 2 scouts for the price of 1 full carrier however the question is how do you deal with devourers with your attack speed debuff after the first acid spore volley? A: you don't. Bisu would have had a better chance with DA and HTs although we could see the same split second Soulkey decision to split off the main bulk of his mutalisks and attack with just 3 to bait the singular maelstrom. After soma could pull it off, it would be back to square one, although he would have rough time sniping HTs still. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8742 Posts
On October 17 2025 01:41 Miragee wrote: Is it just me or is the general amount of sloppiness very high in this season? These semi finals were full of major mistakes. More like games you would expect during the qualifier or Ro24. But even the Ro24 was better on average. blegh At least this series had a couple exciting games. Too bad Soma won. Although I prefer a PvZ final, it will just be like TMNT said and a zerg will just snipe Ps to another ASL title... I just don't see Snow beating Soma and having watched their recent performances I'm not looking forward to finals either way so I would have prefered to just take a protoss champion and move on... I stay corrected regarding protoss air btw. Yes, Bisu didn't add scouts, which I'm sure would have helped, and he made the mistake of attacking instead of holding the islands. But holy did his air fleet get destroyed by devourer/muta/scourge in the first fight... I didn't expect that. I don't think Snow is up for 2) so it's 1) or 3), most likely 3)... its not just the semi finals. its just pro starcraft in general. on average i think offline performances arent as good as online and even online games like proleague are plagued with sloppy play. if you watch proleague 90% of commentary by the spectating pros is all "wtf is he doing?" or something similar. our favourite pros have gotten old | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 17 2025 01:41 Miragee wrote: Is it just me or is the general amount of sloppiness very high in this season? These semi finals were full of major mistakes. More like games you would expect during the qualifier or Ro24. But even the Ro24 was better on average. blegh At least this series had a couple exciting games. Too bad Soma won. Although I prefer a PvZ final, it will just be like TMNT said and a zerg will just snipe Ps to another ASL title... I just don't see Snow beating Soma and having watched their recent performances I'm not looking forward to finals either way so I would have prefered to just take a protoss champion and move on... I stay corrected regarding protoss air btw. Yes, Bisu didn't add scouts, which I'm sure would have helped, and he made the mistake of attacking instead of holding the islands. But holy did his air fleet get destroyed by devourer/muta/scourge in the first fight... I didn't expect that. I don't think Snow is up for 2) so it's 1) or 3), most likely 3)... Snow died to a 7th minute Hydra bust from Soma in Proleague today also. Just saying. He opened Gate first, sent 2 Zealots out for pressure, got behind the mineral line and had the best trade you could realistically have. After that, Soma still had 12 Lings, he showed speed, Snow obviously stayed back because of that, he built 2 cannons, the Hydras arrived when the Corsair on its way out, gg. I think Soma had a 953 instead of a 973 build. That kind of game. It always happens from time to time. The only realistic way to prevent is blind counter. In a Bo7 between players of equal skill, there will always be 1 or 2 games like that bound to happen. It's really hard for Protoss to not lose 4 out of 7 when on top of that, you also have free win kind of map for Zerg like Roaring Currents, Death Valley, Monty Hall. | ||
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Ze'ev
90 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 04:48 Ze'ev wrote: Honestly anyone whos played island maps and reached late game air compositions was 100% expecting bisu to get face rolled. you cant beat late game zerg with with sair and like 5 carriers. you need d.a, arbiter...you need to pray to god, frankly. if zerg reaches late game in an even footing with protoss in an air scenario, the game is all but over already. Yes, honestly I cannot understand this along with the death valley game last season in which Soulkey rolled over snow. I cannot tell if people expect miracles, or don't know the mechanics of the game and expect odds to be in their favourite player's favour. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 02:24 TMNT wrote: Snow died to a 7th minute Hydra bust from Soma in Proleague today also. Just saying. He opened Gate first, sent 2 Zealots out for pressure, got behind the mineral line and had the best trade you could realistically have. After that, Soma still had 12 Lings, he showed speed, Snow obviously stayed back because of that, he built 2 cannons, the Hydras arrived when the Corsair on its way out, gg. I think Soma had a 953 instead of a 973 build. That kind of game. It always happens from time to time. The only realistic way to prevent is blind counter. In a Bo7 between players of equal skill, there will always be 1 or 2 games like that bound to happen. It's really hard for Protoss to not lose 4 out of 7 when on top of that, you also have free win kind of map for Zerg like Roaring Currents, Death Valley, Monty Hall. It took some time for people to notice this but snow, along with soulkey are not fast players. If it were rich playing, I'd 100% root for a protoss victory, but it is lost in translation. New players cannot reach finals, but I expect them to deliver more than these dinosaurs of starcraft. | ||
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Ze'ev
90 Posts
On October 17 2025 07:42 mtcn77 wrote: People often think there engaging in critical thinking when there just repeating shallow mantras. "Protoss is favoured on island maps!" was the line that created that map.Yes, honestly I cannot understand this along with the death valley game last season in which Soulkey rolled over snow. I cannot tell if people expect miracles, or don't know the mechanics of the game and expect odds to be in their favourite player's favour. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 08:42 Ze'ev wrote: People often think there engaging in critical thinking when there just repeating shallow mantras. "Protoss is favoured on island maps!" was the line that created that map. I was also under the spell watching the qualifying stages. I honestly blame the casters for purporting false narratives. It took me until the tournament proper to see how wrong an assumption it was, but I'm all for that map. I think it being a zerg map is also false. No, it is just a super greedy map with odds in favour of anybody who plays ultra greedy. Personally I like it since pros take super unnecessary risks for FE which I hate. | ||
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prototype.
Canada4215 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4129 Posts
On October 17 2025 08:59 mtcn77 wrote: I was also under the spell watching the qualifying stages. I honestly blame the casters for purporting false narratives. It took me until the tournament proper to see how wrong an assumption it was, but I'm all for that map. I think it being a zerg map is also false. No, it is just a super greedy map with odds in favour of anybody who plays ultra greedy. Personally I like it since pros take super unnecessary risks for FE which I hate. Yeah its not a Zerg map, zergs had not lost a single official game on it, but similarly to Death Valley it shows that they are just superior players | ||
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Banteng
United States148 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 15:18 M2 wrote: Yeah its not a Zerg map, zergs had not lost a single official game on it, but similarly to Death Valley it shows that they are just superior players I wised up in between speed vs hero and larva vs light. I don't know if it is early or not, but there really hasn't been matches on roaring currents (in the qualifiers I mean) although casters cast a dark shadow on the map. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4132 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4132 Posts
On October 15 2025 19:34 oxKnu wrote: If Soma tries to play slow and invites Snow into the late-game I think he will have some serious trouble. IMO, if a Zerg reaches the finals against a P that is not a true strategist (so basically only in-shape Rain from the current era) he should play a complete bait-and-switch/all-in style. There is no point in dragging games out (unless it's a weird game state or a bizarre map). Most P's that will ever reach a final are competent enough to go 50/50 over Zergs in long games, simply letting them get there is unnecessary risk. I say this because of the added pressure of the finals, a Zerg that completely goes spastic is a terrible matchup for a P that just tries to get a grip of the series for most of the time. I think Soma will do this anyway but just stating the obvious here. I think Snow has a realistic shot, Soma is good but he's no Soulkey, you're right if that Snow manages to survive Soma's early-mid game aggression he should be favoured in the late game. Will be an amazing series. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 17 2025 16:15 Dante08 wrote: Bisu choked so hard on Roaring Currents, wtf was he doing man. He had 2 reavers sitting in his base the whole game when Soma took the expansions outside his base. This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop. Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. | ||
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goody153
44219 Posts
On October 17 2025 04:48 Ze'ev wrote: Honestly anyone whos played island maps and reached late game air compositions was 100% expecting bisu to get face rolled. you cant beat late game zerg with with sair and like 5 carriers. you need d.a, arbiter...you need to pray to god, frankly. if zerg reaches late game in an even footing with protoss in an air scenario, the game is all but over already. Nah in this case it was just Bisu. Seriously he basically just A-clicked vs airzerg and completely assuming that carrier+sair beats whatever zerg throws without issue like even ground to ground pvz you dont even do that. Clearly when storm was introduced into the equation in later parts of the match things looked different cause zerg mass air could not just engage when you add spellcasters into it but it was a little too late cause Bisu lost all his expansions and zerg has too much Soma was just the better player and Bisu just did not look for other solution But clearly semi-island maps are starting to shake up things. Players building units they'd never build before and do strats they would never do before On October 16 2025 23:51 prosatan wrote: yeap, they haven't won so far an ASL trophy! It's the ideal finals tbqh and somehow the expected one. Although I think I favor Soma here cause he is waaaaaaaay better at zvp than snow is at pvz That said I really wanted snow to win | ||
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SCRVN
92 Posts
Carrier + Corsair is immortal in PvZ, PvT. BTW on island maps, players take more bases than opponent who usually lose games because of difference between p/p build/mine/defend and attack price. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
Bisu should have delayed Carrier production for a bit to get storm up, and load the HTs in Shuttles to protect them from Hydras during fights. It will delay his move out timing with Carriers, but maybe it's worth it. But obviously I'm just talking out of my ass and the game may still play out badly for P, either because of the delayed move out that lets Zerg grow too big, or that P can't afford both Carriers and HTs at the same time. We need to see more to know. | ||
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SCRVN
92 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6715 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 21:08 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: So how comes no a single person has wondered why bisu never used reaver support when he was attacking one of Soma expansion with Sair dweb + Carrier ? i feel like by doing that the attack would have been way more tedious for Soma. And is not like he was in Danger at home to never use reavers outside his natural. Roaring Currents map coastal expansions have lower economy. If you stay ground side by the late game your minerals run out. Even the islands are 1200/4000. There are no regular expansions, so game sends you in a specific direction. Why bisu spent it all on carriers is anyone's guess. Devourers have +2 armor, by the time zerg has devourers, all it needs to do is unstack its devourers and protoss with however many corsairs it has has to take devourers one by one. The +2 armor makes that engagement super slow, it is not like the early game where corsairs can one shot a stack of mutas. Carriers, too. Personally I think bisu didn't expect zerg to turtle by going air, but air is the best defence zerg has if you don't make mass archons. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland577 Posts
I have no idea how can't you guys see that. It's because of that micro mistake, how the game turned out in the end. If it wasn't for that, Bisu's chances to win would be much much higher. Yet, a lot of you decided, based on the outcome of the game, that it was the strategy that was bad. Who knows, maybe there are better strategies, but based on this game, I definitely cannot say that the strategical choice was bad. The micro was just that bad in that 1 moment. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 21:33 Bonyth wrote: Bisu went for fast carriers (after corsairs). He skipped all gas-heavy upgrades, 2nd robotics etc in order to get them. Was that the correct choice? Who knows. But assuming it was a fine choice, his mistake was not unit composition, but how he handled the first fight where he ate in 1 moment 9 acid spores on all of his corsairs. I have no idea how can't you guys see that. It's because of that micro mistake, how the game turned out in the end. If it wasn't for that, Bisu's chances to win would be much much higher. Yet, a lot of you decided, based on the outcome of the game, that it was the strategy that was bad. Who knows, maybe there are better strategies, but based on this game, I definitely cannot say that the strategical choice was bad. The micro was just that bad in that 1 moment. What are you suggesting? Devourers are going to 9 shot any target they go after, you can't hide. Acid spores have 2*2 spread. Corsair neutron flare has 3*3 spread, however %50 AoE is 1.5*1.5. %25 AoE is below devourer armor dps. I said this before. Just want to clarify, I don't understand your point. Oh, I got how I should say this so you guys can understand: bisu got wrapped in his own image persona. Since he is the first corsair protoss, he got caught fighting island map with his style. I called again and again you cannot win this map with how air protoss plays out, this is the landmark unit bisu couldn't back out off. This is what I meant all this time "protoss needs to play like at the beginning of the millenium." You make archons and corsairs are not the primary air defence. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5165 Posts
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Bonyth
Poland577 Posts
On October 17 2025 21:47 mtcn77 wrote: What are you suggesting? Devourers are going to 9 shot any target they go after, you can't hide. Acid spores have 2*2 spread. Corsair neutron flare has 3*3 spread, however %50 AoE is 1.5*1.5. %25 AoE is below devourer armor dps. I said this before. Just want to clarify, I don't understand your point. Oh, I got how I should say this so you guys can understand: bisu got wrapped in his own image persona. Since he is the first corsair protoss, he got caught fighting island map with his style. I called again and again you cannot win this map with how air protoss plays out, this is the landmark unit bisu couldn't back out off. This is what I meant all this time "protoss needs to play like at the beginning of the millenium." You make archons and corsairs are not the primary air defence. protoss is not obliged to make the life easy for zerg by stacking all corsairs in 1 place together | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5165 Posts
^Roaring Currents VOD. Btw, if it helps this discussion at all: Bisu's reference for Corsair/Carrier success is vs JD. Namely on Andromeda: | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 22:22 Bonyth wrote: protoss is not obliged to make the life easy for zerg by stacking all corsairs in 1 place together Even if you spread, 9 devourers(let's take the bare minimum we both know there were at least 12) can spread too and if you A+ move, you have a 18*2 spread on however many corsairs you might have. This isn't like corsairs I told you which you have to attack in a 1.5*1.5 cone in order to put a dent in devourers' hp. | ||
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Ideas
United States8136 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4132 Posts
On October 17 2025 19:00 TMNT wrote: This is a bad read. Those 2 Reavers are all the ground army he had lol. You can use 2 Reavers to grab some Drones and run, you can't use them to fight mass Hydra. Plus, they're there to defend potential doom drop. Watch more games on this map and you'll realise when P go full skytoss on this map, they have to give up all the land for Z. You can't have enough to control both air AND land. Ideally it'll be 5 base P (3 bottom islands) vs 7 base Z (1 top island) and you fight until one side runs out of steam. Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote: Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. He made a similar comparison in proleague which went between hero and bisu. Ironically, that time both the zerg and the protoss misread the map. Hero made mutas - lost them all - then made hydralisks and lost them all again during a main bust. Bisu defended with reavers which sat in base however that time hydralisks made them artificially useful. | ||
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Ze'ev
90 Posts
On October 17 2025 21:33 Bonyth wrote: That aint the consequence of micro; I've never seen that amount of devourer/muta/scourge do anything but faceroll an army of bisu's size. Corsairs get dusted by devourer/muta.Bisu went for fast carriers (after corsairs). He skipped all gas-heavy upgrades, 2nd robotics etc in order to get them. Was that the correct choice? Who knows. But assuming it was a fine choice, his mistake was not unit composition, but how he handled the first fight where he ate in 1 moment 9 acid spores on all of his corsairs. I have no idea how can't you guys see that. It's because of that micro mistake, how the game turned out in the end. If it wasn't for that, Bisu's chances to win would be much much higher. Yet, a lot of you decided, based on the outcome of the game, that it was the strategy that was bad. Who knows, maybe there are better strategies, but based on this game, I definitely cannot say that the strategical choice was bad. The micro was just that bad in that 1 moment. | ||
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Ideas
United States8136 Posts
On October 18 2025 00:03 Ze'ev wrote: That aint the consequence of micro; I've never seen that amount of devourer/muta/scourge do anything but faceroll an army of bisu's size. Corsairs get dusted by devourer/muta. I think once zerg gets that size of an air army, protoss is helpless without spellcaster support from HTs/DAs. | ||
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Ze'ev
90 Posts
On October 18 2025 00:24 Ideas wrote: Agreed!I think once zerg gets that size of an air army, protoss is helpless without spellcaster support from HTs/DAs. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 18 2025 00:24 Ideas wrote: I think once zerg gets that size of an air army, protoss is helpless without spellcaster support from HTs/DAs. Weird, some people don't see it that way. If I were smarter, I could probably tell what is going on with last season's death valley, but it seems roaring currents is pretty cut and dried to me. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 17 2025 23:12 Dante08 wrote: Then why build the reavers? He could have at least used them to harass or join the main fight. Soma brought his hydras to fight whenever he could but Bisu just attacked randomly with only air units. Not saying he would have won but those reavers could have been really helpful in some of the fights. To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote: To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. That circumvents the question. Reavers are an unnecessary tech tree when going air. Even corsair reaver stopped being relevant back in 2000s. The question is limited duration until zerg can go air. You are trying to stop it, just like against terran you are trying to stop them getting a fourth expansion, or the other main. You are lucky against zerg because it takes 248s until zerg can research drop upgrades. However that is not time you can spend on unnecessary tech trees. Zerg also has the option to expand more. Even if you are on similar economy, the idea zerg can turtle and start doing what soma did in that game should scare you. You have to bring the fight to the zerg and bring it fast, or you won't catch zerg off guard. It won't happen with FEs when you relinquish total map control to zerg, zerg will only be emboldened by it and it won't happen with slow tech. Protoss players might be trying too hard to be perfectionists. Yes, zerg will dive at your army with mutalisks and try to hunt HTs. I said make archons and just weather zerg skirmishes until you can march on zerg creep, then your army will pay off. Nothing zerg has by this point can compare to zealots and archons. If zerg is smart it will stay behind with hydralisks waiting. If it has mutalisks, just walk up to its main and start causing havoc. Zerg cannot mix army and economy for long. | ||
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10343 Posts
However, there are bits of truth sprinkled throughout. Bisu wasn't razor sharp here like he was versus Larva. Corsair control was surprisingly spotty. Decision making on that island map was perplexing. Corner cutting on game 7 versus Soma of all players was so deflating. You're playing Soma: make two cannons and be prepared to hunker down. And I got to be honest as a zerg boi: I really don't care for Soma's playstyle. It's highly effective, but uninspiring. Doesn't have the range of Soulkey, the quirkiness of Larva, or even the textbook aptitude of Hero or Queen. Mass hydras. Mass speedlings. Muta switches upon Muta switches. Even when he destroyed big air, it took Bisu a-moving his carriers into the middle of the map to do it. He had no defilers or any other kind of follow up. Just more mass mutas and hydras. Can't believe I'll be rooting for Snow, but that's what I'll be doing. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
543 Posts
On October 18 2025 10:58 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Comments in this thread took me way back to the height of BW with the sweeping generalizations about certain matchups when a fan favorite would lose :') However, there are bits of truth sprinkled throughout. Bisu wasn't razor sharp here like he was versus Larva. Corsair control was surprisingly spotty. Decision making on that island map was perplexing. Corner cutting on game 7 versus Soma of all players was so deflating. You're playing Soma: make two cannons and be prepared to hunker down. And I got to be honest as a zerg boi: I really don't care for Soma's playstyle. It's highly effective, but uninspiring. Doesn't have the range of Soulkey, the quirkiness of Larva, or even the textbook aptitude of Hero or Queen. Mass hydras. Mass speedlings. Muta switches upon Muta switches. Even when he destroyed big air, it took Bisu a-moving his carriers into the middle of the map to do it. He had no defilers or any other kind of follow up. Just more mass mutas and hydras. Can't believe I'll be rooting for Snow, but that's what I'll be doing. embrace soma embrace bts embrace early pool embrace hydra bust | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24590 Posts
Bisu losing. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland577 Posts
On October 17 2025 22:48 mtcn77 wrote: Even if you spread, 9 devourers(let's take the bare minimum we both know there were at least 12) can spread too and if you A+ move, you have a 18*2 spread on however many corsairs you might have. This isn't like corsairs I told you which you have to attack in a 1.5*1.5 cone in order to put a dent in devourers' hp. You are correct, corsairs are basically useless against devourers. But that's okay, because their job is to protect carriers and attack mutas / scourge. And it's where all the nice micro begins. Zerg wants to his as many acid spores on as many corsairs as possible in the shortest ammount of time. Protoss, in order to prevent that, wants to split his corsairs. Zerg has a critical decision to make, as it's important to land acid spores on carriers too, but there are many leftover corsairs without acid spores. It is important, because devourers on their own don't have enough dps to fight protoss army on their own. So, this is where mutas come into play. If all the corsairs have acid spores on them, mutas won't be shutdown by them, but if some of the corsairs were left untouched, mutas won't make it to carriers. Well, anyway, a fun micro battle. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 18 2025 18:43 Bonyth wrote: You are correct, corsairs are basically useless against devourers. But that's okay, because their job is to protect carriers and attack mutas / scourge. And it's where all the nice micro begins. Zerg wants to his as many acid spores on as many corsairs as possible in the shortest ammount of time. Protoss, in order to prevent that, wants to split his corsairs. Zerg has a critical decision to make, as it's important to land acid spores on carriers too, but there are many leftover corsairs without acid spores. It is important, because devourers on their own don't have enough dps to fight protoss army on their own. So, this is where mutas come into play. If all the corsairs have acid spores on them, mutas won't be shutdown by them, but if some of the corsairs were left untouched, mutas won't make it to carriers. Well, anyway, a fun micro battle. Corsairs can go like storm dodging, moving 3 blocks apart, but then how do they attack AoE? All zerg has to do is a move into the protoss air fleet as soma did. The ball is in protoss' court. I think one has to appreciate soma's decisiveness. I've been ranting a lot about devourer muta combo lately. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4132 Posts
On October 18 2025 03:08 TMNT wrote: To defend the main and nat in the earlier phase of the game when Carriers are not out yet, and the islands in the later phase. Isn't that obvious? The Reavers served their purpose. At that point in the game they're not that useful anymore. Visit the proleague thread and see the Mini vs Queen game on this map on 15 Oct to see the importance of the reavers during that phase. Since Protoss rushes for Carriers, Reavers are the only defence they have against Hydra bust. Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. | ||
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TMNT
2944 Posts
On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote: Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Such a weird question. Think about it: - If Protoss can "just use HTs", why do they even have to bother going through Reaver tech before Templar tech in PvT? - If Protoss can "just use HTs" to defend Hydras, why do they have to build 6-8 Cannons against Hydra bust on normal maps. Wouldn't it be better to just storm the Hydras? In the context of this build and this map, P needs a Robo anyway to drop the Probe on the islands for his 3rd. After that it's one building away from the Reaver. Imagine going for Templar tech after that Robo, when all your gas is going into the Double Stargate anyway? By the time you are able to get the first storm out, you'd already lose your nat lol. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey551 Posts
On October 19 2025 00:43 Dante08 wrote: Why in the world would you build reavers just to defend, if he wanted to defend hydras in main just use HTs. Bisu did eventually tech to HTs but not before he lost the first big fight. If he got a few HTs the first fight looks completely different. Bisu is just bad at this kind of non-standard fights and it showed in his game vs Larva ad well. Don't argue with him. It is the sort of person who brings up having ground defences up in an air fight discussion. I salute the cognitive bias to bring up shuttles to ferry probes to the islands when you could avoid them altogether and expand to your natural and third expansions like normal people. What else, you could even recall them if you are so adamant at expanding there once you have completely gained ground superiority over the zerg. Every new tech tree is lost time and money until zerg gets the upper hand. Protoss can almost coast to victory once the initial muta rush threat is dealt with. Mutas are 138s tech, not including the mutalisk spawning duration. Archons are 157.5s tech, including the HT and meld duration. You can summon archons 5.5 seconds faster than the first mutalisk is even hatched. Make a cannon where the zerg will dive and put an archon in their path to deter them. If zerg attacks your archon, move it closer to your cannon. If it attacks the cannon, move it closer to the mutalisks. Once your initial bases are secure, just put them out of their misery with speed zealots and archons. You can postpone robotics facility for quite some time, it is not as if zerg will suddenly switch to lurkers, it takes a lot out of the brunt of the mutalisk rush. Your answer to the mutalisk rush is making an archon and a photon cannon for every third mutalisk and you have only spent as much as zerg has. | ||
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