[ASL19] Grand Finals - Page 45

On June 04 2025 16:28 iFU.pauline wrote:


The average APM/EAPM will highly depends on the build. For instance back in the day in zvp, taking far third with early fourth would be the standard opening without one gate pressure, therefore it was much more macro defensive oriented while now it is full hydra mode very early in the game, hence it is most likely that you will have more APM. It is the same with zvt because of the 2 hatch build which is more agressive early game than the 3 hatch build. Apm is just not a very good metric and definitely does not apply to all players. if you take some 2010 JD reps he would regularly go above 270 eapm.

A more interesting metric would be the average mineral count and its standard deviation over the entire game taken at each second (assuming you don't reach 200 pop). A lower score would suggest faster resources spending at a more regular rate. If you take a look at the Oz pack JD reps from 2010, these games vs Bisu on Circuit Breakers, he barely goes above 500 while managing 5 bases and microing hydra lurker ling defiler pretty much all over the map. Nowadays his resources spending is not that constant, and that's only normal due to a decrease in cognitive ability as one gets older, especially if you practice less at pro level.

Of course, this is not enough to fill the gap with the meta evolution, and if the builds are not appropriate and that you do not have the game knowledge for the proper counter, your machina macro won't cut it. But I can confidently say, that as soon as kespa era pro would catch up with the meta, it would be game over very quickly (only repeating what Zero stated in one of his vod a couple of years ago). I don't think many people would argue that.

On June 05 2025 04:24 M2 wrote:
As many people already said, including some pros, everything about the game is more developed and players are stronger than during KESPA, but this is not the point. Its about the competitiveness of the scene. If Soulkey played during KESPA he would have not have this knowledge and if KESPA was still running everyone would have had it. However, in my opinion, we cannot say that Soulkey is one of the greatest while playing twice a year vs bunch of half time streamers with wrists problems. The sad part is that he may actually be the best player, the best zerg or at least one of the greatest, but he doesn't have the opportunity to prove it. The environment is just not here.

On June 04 2025 23:06 WombaT wrote:
Would seem sensible to me. I feel the same about SC2. Level is higher in terms of peak skill achieved, perhaps competitiveness is less than versus the Kespa era. But alternate reality 2025 where Kespa remained roughly as it was would be higher than current reality.

BW is a little more interesting because the collective exchange of information was much more restrictive in the Kespa era, in a way that was never really a thing in SC2. You had streaming, tournament replays for study, almost from day 1

It has certainly opened up a hell of a lot, both between pros, and also to the rest of us. The streaming/ASL era has blokes who were in different teams etc almost hanging around as colleagues/mates with some competition thrown in. You’re harnessing this vast collective knowledge, some of which was jealousy guarded

That’s the only real question here for me. Does the stricter regime and more ruthless competition outweigh that knowledge transfer?

On June 05 2025 04:56 prion_ wrote:
The overall competitiveness was definitely higher during KESPA, due to the sheer size of the scene and constant influx of new players. But I wonder if the teamhouse environment was really conducive to player success. The training regimens that you hear about from people like Jaedong seem far from optimal - sacrificing sleep and physical health to cram in more and more practice games. A modern athlete in really any sport or game, including stuff like chess, wouldn't really train like that anymore.

On June 05 2025 20:47 Bonyth wrote:
for some reasons people tend to think that you can close the gap in knowledge in a matter of days (when talking about teleporting kespa players to current tournaments)
also same people: foreigners cannot get in ASL because the knowledge gap is too big

We believe what we want to believe, huh?

On June 05 2025 20:47 Bonyth wrote:
for some reasons people tend to think that you can close the gap in knowledge in a matter of days (when talking about teleporting kespa players to current tournaments)
also same people: foreigners cannot get in ASL because the knowledge gap is too big

We believe what we want to believe, huh?

On June 05 2025 23:26 iFU.pauline wrote:


How long do you think it would take to close the knowledge gap? Beside theory, I only have my own little experience. I have been away for 4 years, it took me 3 months to catch up with the new meta (and I am nowhere near a genius, actually I found myself pretty bad). The most difficult was zvp. Rest is pretty much similar.

On June 06 2025 02:15 Bonyth wrote:

Sure, if you compare yourself from the past to yourself from the present, it would seem that way. But if you had imaginable friends who were your equals these 4 years ago and they continuosly played starcraft, you would have had 20% win rate against them now. With time, going up to 30% and slowly and slowly up towards 50%.

Anyways, perhaps I shouldnt have written my post in the first place, as I don't know it myself for sure, but if gaining that knowledge gap was so easy, wouldnt we see more foreigners near ASL level? I think the likes of Draco or Nony had the speed, multitasking, mechanics on top level, so what was really holding them from matching, or even touching, top korean level of play? Is it just that they were worse in the aspects above? Or was it more about game knowledge? (game knowledge = decisions that you make based on what you see and understanding what needs to be done to increase your odds for winning). I believe it's game knowledge and time they would have to invest to get to top kor level.