On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
If you teleported prime Mike Tyson and gave me the option to try and defeat him with my fists, or with the gun you’ve just handed me, I’m going with the gun thank you very much
I mean sure, it’s possible I beat him in a fist fight. It’s probably not my best option
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
During the timeframe mutalisks are used the terran will have 2 bases. Both bases have turrets, scv for repair, and marine medic for more damage. during the 9.54 seconds of attacking a command center the terran will kill every single mutalisk and the zerg will instantly lose the game. Plus, it is generally better to kill things that deal damage to you, buildings beside turrets dont deal damage. it is way better to Kill units, kill turrets, gain leverage through having higher dps output and a larger health pool spread across the total amount of units comparatively to your opponent.
Also the chance to attack a CC without there being enemy units to defend is low, so if you attack the cc you will lose more units than you kill. If there are enemy units to defend it is better to attack enemy units. If you lose units and the enemy does not you will fall behind in supply and possibily have a fighting force incapable of defending against the oppnent's.
Yes there are scenarios where you can infest a cc, but if you encounter such a scenario you are likely already ahead of your opponent and are winning the game, which makea the queen redundant.
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
During the timeframe mutalisks are used the terran will have 2 bases. Both bases have turrets, scv for repair, and marine medic for more damage. during the 9.54 seconds of attacking a command center the terran will kill every single mutalisk and the zerg will instantly lose the game. Plus, it is generally better to kill things that deal damage to you, buildings beside turrets dont deal damage. it is way better to Kill units, kill turrets, gain leverage through having higher dps output and a larger health pool spread across the total amount of units comparatively to your opponent.
Also the chance to attack a CC without there being enemy units to defend is low, so if you attack the cc you will lose more units than you kill. If there are enemy units to defend it is better to attack enemy units. If you lose units and the enemy does not you will fall behind in supply and possibily have a fighting force incapable of defending against the oppnent's.
Yes there are scenarios where you can infest a cc, but if you encounter such a scenario you are likely already ahead of your opponent and are winning the game, which makea the queen redundant.
It's shocking this needs to be explained to him. It's like every newbie who first installs the game and goes for a team game on The Hunters knows this: while you attack them, they attack you back.
But now I kinda see the way he thinks (or trolls). He created the same "theory" that Protoss should have more bases than Zerg and expand in PvZ like a PvT, because it's better from a mining economics pov, completely disregarding the fact that Zerg can simply... kill those bases.
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
During the timeframe mutalisks are used the terran will have 2 bases. Both bases have turrets, scv for repair, and marine medic for more damage. during the 9.54 seconds of attacking a command center the terran will kill every single mutalisk and the zerg will instantly lose the game. Plus, it is generally better to kill things that deal damage to you, buildings beside turrets dont deal damage. it is way better to Kill units, kill turrets, gain leverage through having higher dps output and a larger health pool spread across the total amount of units comparatively to your opponent.
Also the chance to attack a CC without there being enemy units to defend is low, so if you attack the cc you will lose more units than you kill. If there are enemy units to defend it is better to attack enemy units. If you lose units and the enemy does not you will fall behind in supply and possibily have a fighting force incapable of defending against the oppnent's.
Yes there are scenarios where you can infest a cc, but if you encounter such a scenario you are likely already ahead of your opponent and are winning the game, which makea the queen redundant.
It's shocking this needs to be explained to him. It's like every newbie who first installs the game and goes for a team game on The Hunters knows this: while you attack them, they attack you back.
But now I kinda see the way he thinks (or trolls). He created the same "theory" that Protoss should have more bases than Zerg and expand in PvZ like a PvT, because it's better from a mining economics pov, completely disregarding the fact that Zerg can simply... kill those bases.
Are you saying opponents have a functioning brain and they come up with threatening strategies? Maybe you have to deal with such... inconveniences. mtcn on the other hand has immunity to all counter-strategies.
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
Before spending closer to 10 seconds attacking CC you need to make sure the marine count is low enough or that will take way more than 10 seconds, not to forget that you need to know this before hand so you have a queens nest and a queen. Also Terran has repairs. Infesting a CC happens from time to time, but rarely the conditions are good for that. It cannot be something that happens frequently.
I got around to watch the finale with a friend yesterday. It was a great finale imho. I agree with G5 that both players seemed a bit shaky but the games were overall both entertaining and impressive (lategame army movement for example). It's sad that Best couldn't make it. I thought Soulkey would win but was rooting for Best and he almost made it happen. Again I agree with G5. In game 6 I thought it was about 50/50 but when it went to game 7 in my head Soulkey had already won.
When I came to this thread I expected some balance whining, even though I don't think this series displayed any particular imbalances we usually see in the match up. I didn't expect a few dozen pages of balance rants, personal attacks and outright delusional posts. Wtf is happening? This is SC2 level of balance "discussion" insanity.
On June 01 2025 00:15 Miragee wrote: I got around to watch the finale with a friend yesterday. It was a great finale imho. I agree with G5 that both players seemed a bit shaky but the games were overall both entertaining and impressive (lategame army movement for example). It's sad that Best couldn't make it. I thought Soulkey would win but was rooting for Best and he almost made it happen. Again I agree with G5. In game 6 I thought it was about 50/50 but when it went to game 7 in my head Soulkey had already won.
When I came to this thread I expected some balance whining, even though I don't think this series displayed any particular imbalances we usually see in the match up. I didn't expect a few dozen pages of balance rants, personal attacks and outright delusional posts. Wtf is happening? This is SC2 level of balance "discussion" insanity.
Yes, what is scary is these are the people who wish to fix the game by repeating the same mistakes and shutting down any discussion otherwise.
Mini tried to get away with both storm and maelstrom and dt and +1 and and and vs. the best hydra buster for over a decade now and you're surprised early hydras at a timing kill him there?
On June 01 2025 19:18 Peeano wrote: Mini tried to get away with both storm and maelstrom and dt and +1 and and and vs. the best hydra buster for over a decade now and you're surprised early hydras at a timing kill him there?
Sigh.
DA was used two more times in this match. Protoss won once in a long game (the DA was entirely inconsequential to that win) and lost once (despite the DA doing serious damage).
The point is that DA doesn't win games, it doesn't even increase the odds of winning. Never has, never will. It's at best an inconsequential unit, at worst it makes protoss lose more often. Protoss players are generally well advised to stay far away from DA builds. It's a losing bet.
Your video example was bad. DA is situational, in general never a must have in the early game. DA is great at protecting hts vs muta snipes or freeze a doom drop with, other than that it's not useless, but less useful as 2 hts or 2 dts can be.
DA is kinda like insurance. You don't need it until you do. And nice to have if you're rich anyway.
On June 01 2025 21:14 Peeano wrote: Your video example was bad. DA is situational, in general never a must have in the early game. DA is great at protecting hts vs muta snipes or freeze a doom drop with, other than that it's not useless, but less useful as 2 hts or 2 dts can be.
DA is kinda like insurance. You don't need it until you do. And nice to have if you're rich anyway.
Good luck "spotting" the situation where you need the DA, building it, and then having it prepared for that situation. Putting the cart before the horse has never been easier I guess.
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
Before spending closer to 10 seconds attacking CC you need to make sure the marine count is low enough or that will take way more than 10 seconds, not to forget that you need to know this before hand so you have a queens nest and a queen. Also Terran has repairs. Infesting a CC happens from time to time, but rarely the conditions are good for that. It cannot be something that happens frequently.
This isn't a strategy for an open map, just for mineral side attack advantage expansion maps like Deja Vu. Whatever terran does, he still cannot defend 12 o'clock expansion from air attacks. There is no room for turrets or marines without stepping in between SCVs. You don't have to worry about repairs, mutalisks do side damage to SCVs, too. You are still in a huge lead when you do and with the overwhelming air advantage, if Terran has no Valkyries, you are in to score a CC.
On June 01 2025 21:14 Peeano wrote: Your video example was bad. DA is situational, in general never a must have in the early game. DA is great at protecting hts vs muta snipes or freeze a doom drop with, other than that it's not useless, but less useful as 2 hts or 2 dts can be.
DA is kinda like insurance. You don't need it until you do. And nice to have if you're rich anyway.
Good luck "spotting" the situation where you need the DA, building it, and then having it prepared for that situation. Putting the cart before the horse has never been easier I guess.
I have never felt the conviction DAs require observers until now. They are even more dependent on good scouting than HTs.
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
Before spending closer to 10 seconds attacking CC you need to make sure the marine count is low enough or that will take way more than 10 seconds, not to forget that you need to know this before hand so you have a queens nest and a queen. Also Terran has repairs. Infesting a CC happens from time to time, but rarely the conditions are good for that. It cannot be something that happens frequently.
This isn't a strategy for an open map, just for mineral side attack advantage expansion maps like Deja Vu. Whatever terran does, he still cannot defend 12 o'clock expansion from air attacks. There is no room for turrets or marines without stepping in between SCVs. You don't have to worry about repairs, mutalisks do side damage to SCVs, too. You are still in a huge lead when you do and with the overwhelming air advantage, if Terran has no Valkyries, you are in to score a CC.
Could the Terran player not just rush nukes and time it in the airspace so they take out all the mutas in one go?
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason.
Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite.
But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you.
Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall.
yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things.
Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
Before spending closer to 10 seconds attacking CC you need to make sure the marine count is low enough or that will take way more than 10 seconds, not to forget that you need to know this before hand so you have a queens nest and a queen. Also Terran has repairs. Infesting a CC happens from time to time, but rarely the conditions are good for that. It cannot be something that happens frequently.
This isn't a strategy for an open map, just for mineral side attack advantage expansion maps like Deja Vu. Whatever terran does, he still cannot defend 12 o'clock expansion from air attacks. There is no room for turrets or marines without stepping in between SCVs. You don't have to worry about repairs, mutalisks do side damage to SCVs, too. You are still in a huge lead when you do and with the overwhelming air advantage, if Terran has no Valkyries, you are in to score a CC.
Could the Terran player not just rush nukes and time it in the airspace so they take out all the mutas in one go?
Yes you can blow your own SCVs and CC, what do I care?
On June 01 2025 21:14 Peeano wrote: Your video example was bad. DA is situational, in general never a must have in the early game. DA is great at protecting hts vs muta snipes or freeze a doom drop with, other than that it's not useless, but less useful as 2 hts or 2 dts can be.
DA is kinda like insurance. You don't need it until you do. And nice to have if you're rich anyway.
Good luck "spotting" the situation where you need the DA, building it, and then having it prepared for that situation. Putting the cart before the horse has never been easier I guess.
In quite a few games Best getting an DA was actually pretty good. SK was expecting it so he split his mutas but that also meant he couldn't harass at all anymore. He just flew in a few times to hopefully bait a maelstorm with 3 mutas but he completely stopped harassing the probe line or try to snipe templars in the base. For that alone it was worth it. After moving out, you either catch the mutas or, if not, catch a bunch of units and kill them for free. Even the latter case is good value, especially when you consider the added value from before.
I honestly think it's a bit weird you are denouncing even making a DA in a thread about a series that actually showed worthwhile DA usage. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue you should rush to DA in any game. But if you scout mutas with your sairs and are in the phase where you mass army and HTs, why not? There are very few scenarios (if any) in which the protoss loses because they built a DA under these circumstances.
EPT
