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On June 02 2025 02:56 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2025 01:45 Magic Powers wrote:On June 01 2025 21:14 Peeano wrote:
Your video example was bad. DA is situational, in general never a must have in the early game. DA is great at protecting hts vs muta snipes or freeze a doom drop with, other than that it's not useless, but less useful as 2 hts or 2 dts can be.
DA is kinda like insurance. You don't need it until you do. And nice to have if you're rich anyway. Good luck "spotting" the situation where you need the DA, building it, and then having it prepared for that situation. Putting the cart before the horse has never been easier I guess. In quite a few games Best getting an DA was actually pretty good. SK was expecting it so he split his mutas but that also meant he couldn't harass at all anymore. He just flew in a few times to hopefully bait a maelstorm with 3 mutas but he completely stopped harassing the probe line or try to snipe templars in the base. For that alone it was worth it. After moving out, you either catch the mutas or, if not, catch a bunch of units and kill them for free. Even the latter case is good value, especially when you consider the added value from before. I honestly think it's a bit weird you are denouncing even making a DA in a thread about a series that actually showed worthwhile DA usage. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue you should rush to DA in any game. But if you scout mutas with your sairs and are in the phase where you mass army and HTs, why not? There are very few scenarios (if any) in which the protoss loses because they built a DA under these circumstances.
I think the waiting game benefits hive tech is what he means. You can make DAs, but you aren't crossing the map with it. Same with reavers, what you have to defend doesn't win you the game.
It is so ironic, there were Jaedong games from prekespa days. I recall at least one badlands map with DA, game 3, you should see our disappointment in seeing Jaedong lose just like Action did. Funny, Soulkey doesn't lose due to a failed initiative.
PS: that maelstormed hydralisk group still haunt me. Just when you thought Jaedong now had enough to turn the tide in the series. Starcraft was bleak for zerg before Soulkey.
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On June 02 2025 02:56 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2025 01:45 Magic Powers wrote:On June 01 2025 21:14 Peeano wrote:
Your video example was bad. DA is situational, in general never a must have in the early game. DA is great at protecting hts vs muta snipes or freeze a doom drop with, other than that it's not useless, but less useful as 2 hts or 2 dts can be.
DA is kinda like insurance. You don't need it until you do. And nice to have if you're rich anyway. Good luck "spotting" the situation where you need the DA, building it, and then having it prepared for that situation. Putting the cart before the horse has never been easier I guess. In quite a few games Best getting an DA was actually pretty good. SK was expecting it so he split his mutas but that also meant he couldn't harass at all anymore. He just flew in a few times to hopefully bait a maelstorm with 3 mutas but he completely stopped harassing the probe line or try to snipe templars in the base. For that alone it was worth it. After moving out, you either catch the mutas or, if not, catch a bunch of units and kill them for free. Even the latter case is good value, especially when you consider the added value from before. I honestly think it's a bit weird you are denouncing even making a DA in a thread about a series that actually showed worthwhile DA usage. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue you should rush to DA in any game. But if you scout mutas with your sairs and are in the phase where you mass army and HTs, why not? There are very few scenarios (if any) in which the protoss loses because they built a DA under these circumstances.
The way I see it DA isn't literally always a bad choice. If done correctly it may turn a game into protoss favor. I take issue with the idea that DA practically solves PvZ - it does not, in fact if used in every game it becomes a burden. The way Best uses DA is problematic - because he uses it in too many games. This allows SoulKey to read Best perfectly and gives him more wins rather than fewer. Mini and Snow use the DA more sparingly, which makes them less predictable, more dangerous, and they win more games rather than fewer.
I think DA can/should be used in a small percentage of games. Maybe 20-25%. Doing it the other way around (75-80%) is the wrong approach, because the DA can only function as a bandaid, not as a solution.
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On June 02 2025 06:24 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2025 02:56 Miragee wrote:On June 02 2025 01:45 Magic Powers wrote:On June 01 2025 21:14 Peeano wrote:
Your video example was bad. DA is situational, in general never a must have in the early game. DA is great at protecting hts vs muta snipes or freeze a doom drop with, other than that it's not useless, but less useful as 2 hts or 2 dts can be.
DA is kinda like insurance. You don't need it until you do. And nice to have if you're rich anyway. Good luck "spotting" the situation where you need the DA, building it, and then having it prepared for that situation. Putting the cart before the horse has never been easier I guess. In quite a few games Best getting an DA was actually pretty good. SK was expecting it so he split his mutas but that also meant he couldn't harass at all anymore. He just flew in a few times to hopefully bait a maelstorm with 3 mutas but he completely stopped harassing the probe line or try to snipe templars in the base. For that alone it was worth it. After moving out, you either catch the mutas or, if not, catch a bunch of units and kill them for free. Even the latter case is good value, especially when you consider the added value from before. I honestly think it's a bit weird you are denouncing even making a DA in a thread about a series that actually showed worthwhile DA usage. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue you should rush to DA in any game. But if you scout mutas with your sairs and are in the phase where you mass army and HTs, why not? There are very few scenarios (if any) in which the protoss loses because they built a DA under these circumstances. The way I see it DA isn't literally always a bad choice. If done correctly it may turn a game into protoss favor. I take issue with the idea that DA practically solves PvZ - it does not, in fact if used in every game it becomes a burden. The way Best uses DA is problematic - because he uses it in too many games. This allows SoulKey to read Best perfectly and gives him more wins rather than fewer. Mini and Snow use the DA more sparingly, which makes them less predictable, more dangerous, and they win more games rather than fewer. I think DA can/should be used in a small percentage of games. Maybe 20-25%. Doing it the other way around (75-80%) is the wrong approach, because the DA can only function as a bandaid, not as a solution.
I think there is a bad read on protoss strategy. Protoss doesn't need any more abilities, or dps. However it could use more mobility. That is the only determinant protoss gets better engagements because everything else makes the tail end of the protoss column stick out and zerg will snipe everything that does - zerg's advantage is mobility. Trying to chase zerg with slower units is a fool's errand. The more you chase the more you expose your rear.
Therefore you see Best do better against Queen because that is how he played. Nothing beats 8 shuttles, not even arbiters. He did so much with just 2. He completely broke Queen with DT drop. That is not repeatable any other way in my opinion.
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On May 31 2025 18:32 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2025 17:16 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On May 31 2025 15:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 30 2025 22:34 TMNT wrote:On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote:I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason. Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite. But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you. Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall. yeah the queen thing is dumb. Takes so many attacka to put cc into the health range for an infest that you are getting absolutely no results while taking damage to the mutas. It is way better to get guarantees damage on easy to kill things. Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.
So, for everyone, that was my point. Just don’t argue with that guy.
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So where does this win land Soulkey in the pantheon of BW greats?
Nobody has ever done what he just did in terms of winning 4 majors in a row (at least that I can remember).
Is he ahead of JD now as best Zerg ever? What would he have to do to go ahead of Flash as the BW goat? Or is it too hard to compare the ASL era with the Kespa era?
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I’m thinking it’s too hard to compare now with KESPA.
The army control and multitasking people had during that era is just a different beast.
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Netherlands4992 Posts
Not ahead of JD, because JD beat god to get gold and old JD would JvZ Soulkey like 20-1. JD can't be matched just like Flash can't be matched imo. And the same seems true for Bisu PvZ
4 titles in a row makes him the ASL goat and the current #1. Not a bonjwa nor the best Zerg ever. In my book Soulkey's current accomplishments kinda match what July did when he won his golden mouse.
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Northern Ireland25353 Posts
Too hard to compare really.
I think to a certain degree BW skipped a generation as it were with how the switch etc occurred.
Generation probably isn’t a good term, given many of these players shared active years. But it’ll make sense contextually I hope!
If you’ve got your old legends cohort, you’ve also got the next generation of hyped potential Starleague winners/at least very, very solid pros (Soulkey himself, Rain, to my understanding anyway, etc), and you’ve a third cohort of players who were at the top when Kespa BW ended, and didn’t really come back fully (Jangbi, Fantasy)
Some of that middle bracket didn’t come back from SC2 as well.
Zero knock on Soulkey here, but he’s quite well-placed to do well in this era. He’s not beating the Kings of the Hill from when Kespa switched, but the previous occupants. And some who may also have been with him in being the potential next in line to be King of the Hill, aren’t competiting with him.
By want of a crude analogy, let’s say Soulkey is a footballer in a team. He’s like the young wonder kid, but there’s a few other young wonder kids. The squad has a few players in their peak years, and it’s got a bunch of ageing superstar legends with just a few years left.
The football club was financially mismanaged and in danger of going bust, so they gotta sell a few of those wonder kids, and some of those valuable assets in their peak years. Soulkey’s now competing for a starting berth with less wonderkid competition, and mostly against the ageing legends types.
This doesn’t mean that he couldn’t make that team and do just as well in a parallel reality where the team didn’t nearly go bust, but it does make his road easier.
Bloody good at Brood War is certainly the case! Other B words I just think it’s impossible to compare with the peak Kespa years
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As far as balance whine goes maby we're just playing the game wrong.
Because there is one race that is clearly best, and that is random.
And the only way to prevent your opponent from getting the advantage that random gives you, is for you yourself to play random.
But unless everyone plays random, there still isnt really a "best" race. It's all down to how the maps are made.
The maps we have now, with 1500 minerals pr patch, 1 gas geyser at each base (mostly), rush distances etc etc, is just how we ended up playing the game.
If there is clear bias towards one race, the race isnt overpowered, the map is just not optimal.
But thats just like my opinion maaan
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On June 03 2025 01:44 Timebon3s wrote:
As far as balance whine goes maby we're just playing the game wrong.
Because there is one race that is clearly best, and that is random.
And the only way to prevent your opponent from getting the advantage that random gives you, is for you yourself to play random.
But unless everyone plays random, there still isnt really a "best" race. It's all down to how the maps are made.
The maps we have now, with 1500 minerals pr patch, 1 gas geyser at each base (mostly), rush distances etc etc, is just how we ended up playing the game.
If there is clear bias towards one race, the race isnt overpowered, the map is just not optimal.
But thats just like my opinion maaan
I agree with the maps being the problem when there game feels unbalanced, Starcraft is not played nor can it be balanced in a vacuum. The thing is that there are three races, and when you balance a matchup you risk unbalancing two others.
When you get as closed as a balanced map as possible you end up with the infamous T>Z>P>T. Fix TvP and you risk totally breaking PvZ and TvZ.
You are also right about Random, though that’s theoretical. The advantage random gives you (pre scout blindness basically) is probably never going to be worth practicing and getting good at 3 times more matchups.
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On June 02 2025 21:16 Timebon3s wrote:
I’m thinking it’s too hard to compare now with KESPA.
The army control and multitasking people had during that era is just a different beast.
When I watch replays from kespa all players were clearly worse than the top players from today in every single way
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Well maybe you’re watching the wrong replays.
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A few years ago I think Kespa era was stronger, but nowadays I think it's the reverse.
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On June 03 2025 15:59 Magic Powers wrote:
A few years ago I think Kespa era was stronger, but nowadays I think it's the reverse.
2016-2019 that was true except for like 5-6 players. They were already better. from 2020 onwards more players were becoming better than Kespa era.
Do note 2007-2009 Kespa was weaker than 2016-2019. 2010-2012 kespa was largely stronger than 2019 except Flash, Queen, Light, Last, SoMa and Rain. In 2020 like 15 players surpassed that Kespa era timeframe.
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When you say better, do you mean overall better, as in both mechanics and strategy? I agree that the strategy or «meta» improved a lot but I still think multitasking/apm/mechanics were better in the end of KESPA.
But by all means, I can be wrong.
Edit: After careful consideration, it might actually be the insane Korean casters who makes everything seem way more epic than it really is lol
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Kespa era was stronger because people had an entire team house help them prepare for matches. They had their B-teamers spend days grinding out specific build orders.
Flash is the exception that proves the rule. He was called "Child labor Terran" for some time because everyone else on KT Rolster sucked, before Violet and Stats started pulling their weight.
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The mechanics are better today, both apm and eapm are higher than ever.
Take one player for example queen, check his apm and eapm from the zero days versus his championship asl seasons and today. His apm is over 50 actions higher with higher eapm as well
So many things, looks at dark swarm or storm usage from kespa versus this year, it's not even close tbh
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On June 04 2025 14:17 LpTraxamillion wrote:
The mechanics are better today, both apm and eapm are higher than ever.
Take one player for example queen, check his apm and eapm from the zero days versus his championship asl seasons and today. His apm is over 50 actions higher with higher eapm as well
So many things, looks at dark swarm or storm usage from kespa versus this year, it's not even close tbh
The average APM/EAPM will highly depends on the build. For instance back in the day in zvp, taking far third with early fourth would be the standard opening without one gate pressure, therefore it was much more macro defensive oriented while now it is full hydra mode very early in the game, hence it is most likely that you will have more APM. It is the same with zvt because of the 2 hatch build which is more agressive early game than the 3 hatch build. Apm is just not a very good metric and definitely does not apply to all players. if you take some 2010 JD reps he would regularly go above 270 eapm.
A more interesting metric would be the average mineral count and its standard deviation over the entire game taken at each second (assuming you don't reach 200 pop). A lower score would suggest faster resources spending at a more regular rate. If you take a look at the Oz pack JD reps from 2010, these games vs Bisu on Circuit Breakers, he barely goes above 500 while managing 5 bases and microing hydra lurker ling defiler pretty much all over the map. Nowadays his resources spending is not that constant, and that's only normal due to a decrease in cognitive ability as one gets older, especially if you practice less at pro level.
Of course, this is not enough to fill the gap with the meta evolution, and if the builds are not appropriate and that you do not have the game knowledge for the proper counter, your machina macro won't cut it. But I can confidently say, that as soon as kespa era pro would catch up with the meta, it would be game over very quickly (only repeating what Zero stated in one of his vod a couple of years ago). I don't think many people would argue that.
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On June 04 2025 16:28 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 14:17 LpTraxamillion wrote:
The mechanics are better today, both apm and eapm are higher than ever.
Take one player for example queen, check his apm and eapm from the zero days versus his championship asl seasons and today. His apm is over 50 actions higher with higher eapm as well
So many things, looks at dark swarm or storm usage from kespa versus this year, it's not even close tbh The average APM/EAPM will highly depends on the build. For instance back in the day in zvp, taking far third with early fourth would be the standard opening without one gate pressure, therefore it was much more macro defensive oriented while now it is full hydra mode very early in the game, hence it is most likely that you will have more APM. It is the same with zvt because of the 2 hatch build which is more agressive early game than the 3 hatch build. Apm is just not a very good metric and definitely does not apply to all players. if you take some 2010 JD reps he would regularly go above 270 eapm. A more interesting metric would be the average mineral count and its standard deviation over the entire game taken at each second (assuming you don't reach 200 pop). A lower score would suggest faster resources spending at a more regular rate. If you take a look at the Oz pack JD reps from 2010, these games vs Bisu on Circuit Breakers, he barely goes above 500 while managing 5 bases and microing hydra lurker ling defiler pretty much all over the map. Nowadays his resources spending is not that constant, and that's only normal due to a decrease in cognitive ability as one gets older, especially if you practice less at pro level. Of course, this is not enough to fill the gap with the meta evolution, and if the builds are not appropriate and that you do not have the game knowledge for the proper counter, your machina macro won't cut it. But I can confidently say, that as soon as kespa era pro would catch up with the meta, it would be game over very quickly (only repeating what Zero stated in one of his vod a couple of years ago). I don't think many people would argue that.
100 % agreed, very well written. I would only add that it was not only Zero who made that argument but others as well. Flash for example.
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Northern Ireland25353 Posts
Would seem sensible to me. I feel the same about SC2. Level is higher in terms of peak skill achieved, perhaps competitiveness is less than versus the Kespa era. But alternate reality 2025 where Kespa remained roughly as it was would be higher than current reality.
BW is a little more interesting because the collective exchange of information was much more restrictive in the Kespa era, in a way that was never really a thing in SC2. You had streaming, tournament replays for study, almost from day 1
It has certainly opened up a hell of a lot, both between pros, and also to the rest of us. The streaming/ASL era has blokes who were in different teams etc almost hanging around as colleagues/mates with some competition thrown in. You’re harnessing this vast collective knowledge, some of which was jealousy guarded
That’s the only real question here for me. Does the stricter regime and more ruthless competition outweigh that knowledge transfer?
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EPT
