[ASL19] Grand Finals - Page 44

On June 02 2025 02:56 Miragee wrote:


In quite a few games Best getting an DA was actually pretty good. SK was expecting it so he split his mutas but that also meant he couldn't harass at all anymore. He just flew in a few times to hopefully bait a maelstorm with 3 mutas but he completely stopped harassing the probe line or try to snipe templars in the base. For that alone it was worth it. After moving out, you either catch the mutas or, if not, catch a bunch of units and kill them for free. Even the latter case is good value, especially when you consider the added value from before.

I honestly think it's a bit weird you are denouncing even making a DA in a thread about a series that actually showed worthwhile DA usage. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue you should rush to DA in any game. But if you scout mutas with your sairs and are in the phase where you mass army and HTs, why not? There are very few scenarios (if any) in which the protoss loses because they built a DA under these circumstances.

On June 02 2025 06:24 Magic Powers wrote:


The way I see it DA isn't literally always a bad choice. If done correctly it may turn a game into protoss favor. I take issue with the idea that DA practically solves PvZ - it does not, in fact if used in every game it becomes a burden. The way Best uses DA is problematic - because he uses it in too many games. This allows SoulKey to read Best perfectly and gives him more wins rather than fewer. Mini and Snow use the DA more sparingly, which makes them less predictable, more dangerous, and they win more games rather than fewer.

I think DA can/should be used in a small percentage of games. Maybe 20-25%. Doing it the other way around (75-80%) is the wrong approach, because the DA can only function as a bandaid, not as a solution.

On May 31 2025 18:32 mtcn77 wrote:

Really? It takes 12 hydralisks 3.93 seconds to deal 750hp damage to a CC. It takes 11 mutalisks 9.54 seconds to deal 750 damage to a CC. Don't tell me a CC isn't a viable target, or an attack needs to take less than 10 second or it is gg. It isn't. This is a very possible scenario that took place on Deja Vu, but the zerg player never aimed at the CC. Trying to go up the ramp is such a loser way to miss the initiative and that is what is happened.

On June 03 2025 01:44 Timebon3s wrote:
As far as balance whine goes maby we're just playing the game wrong.
Because there is one race that is clearly best, and that is random.
And the only way to prevent your opponent from getting the advantage that random gives you, is for you yourself to play random.

But unless everyone plays random, there still isnt really a "best" race. It's all down to how the maps are made.
The maps we have now, with 1500 minerals pr patch, 1 gas geyser at each base (mostly), rush distances etc etc, is just how we ended up playing the game.
If there is clear bias towards one race, the race isnt overpowered, the map is just not optimal.
But thats just like my opinion maaan

On June 02 2025 21:16 Timebon3s wrote:
I’m thinking it’s too hard to compare now with KESPA.
The army control and multitasking people had during that era is just a different beast.

On June 03 2025 15:59 Magic Powers wrote:
A few years ago I think Kespa era was stronger, but nowadays I think it's the reverse.

On June 04 2025 14:17 LpTraxamillion wrote:
The mechanics are better today, both apm and eapm are higher than ever.

Take one player for example queen, check his apm and eapm from the zero days versus his championship asl seasons and today. His apm is over 50 actions higher with higher eapm as well

So many things, looks at dark swarm or storm usage from kespa versus this year, it's not even close tbh

On June 04 2025 16:28 iFU.pauline wrote:


The average APM/EAPM will highly depends on the build. For instance back in the day in zvp, taking far third with early fourth would be the standard opening without one gate pressure, therefore it was much more macro defensive oriented while now it is full hydra mode very early in the game, hence it is most likely that you will have more APM. It is the same with zvt because of the 2 hatch build which is more agressive early game than the 3 hatch build. Apm is just not a very good metric and definitely does not apply to all players. if you take some 2010 JD reps he would regularly go above 270 eapm.

A more interesting metric would be the average mineral count and its standard deviation over the entire game taken at each second (assuming you don't reach 200 pop). A lower score would suggest faster resources spending at a more regular rate. If you take a look at the Oz pack JD reps from 2010, these games vs Bisu on Circuit Breakers, he barely goes above 500 while managing 5 bases and microing hydra lurker ling defiler pretty much all over the map. Nowadays his resources spending is not that constant, and that's only normal due to a decrease in cognitive ability as one gets older, especially if you practice less at pro level.

Of course, this is not enough to fill the gap with the meta evolution, and if the builds are not appropriate and that you do not have the game knowledge for the proper counter, your machina macro won't cut it. But I can confidently say, that as soon as kespa era pro would catch up with the meta, it would be game over very quickly (only repeating what Zero stated in one of his vod a couple of years ago). I don't think many people would argue that.