EPTJust need to lay it out here, for the tenth time, that I never complained about the results, like "because Snow lost to Soulkey so PvZ is imbalanced. No, I specifically raised the matchup issue in the games that Snow won. As for Best he should always lose to Soulkey as he's one tier below, no questions asked. But it's always easier for the detractors to act like I'm complaining because my player lost to their player.
[ASL19] Grand Finals - Page 42
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TMNT
3122 Posts
Just need to lay it out here, for the tenth time, that I never complained about the results, like "because Snow lost to Soulkey so PvZ is imbalanced. No, I specifically raised the matchup issue in the games that Snow won. As for Best he should always lose to Soulkey as he's one tier below, no questions asked. But it's always easier for the detractors to act like I'm complaining because my player lost to their player. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
On May 30 2025 20:56 TMNT wrote: See what eon did right there. Another troll post. Probably doesn't really violate any rules to warrant a ban, but posters with behavior like this should at least be warned.. Btw Soma is 63% against Snow. Another thing I don't quite understand is that the order of P>T>Z>P seems like it's generally accepted as common knowledge in the BW community for years, so it's actually weird here that our top foreign Zergs don't agree with that. Maybe influence of getting beaten by top amateur Korean Protoss on ladder so they find the matchup more difficult for Z than P? That is because us zerg players have longer memory that stretch out back to when starcraft esport originally started. There never was a weakness of protoss against zerg in a long oriented game. Zerg always lost in a macro and had to close out the game soon or protoss would start taking over zerg expansions. If your false narrative is not stretching thus far, that is on you. I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2204 Posts
On May 30 2025 21:43 sas.Sziky wrote: Maybe, but u know There were many antecedents for this but of course, ignore that :D You're highly respected for being one of the best foreigners, I just wish you would use your power for good. Instead of calling people noobs because they have opinions based on statistics. Like if someone said "I can't win PvZ because it's imbalanced" obviously you can tell them to get better, but if someone says "Bisu is only person to win a PvZ finals in the past 20 years of Korean starleagues" then wtf does their individual skill have to do with it? | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:09 LightSpectra wrote: You're highly respected for being one of the best foreigners, I just wish you would use your power for good. Instead of calling people noobs because they have opinions based on statistics. Like if someone said "I can't win PvZ because it's imbalanced" obviously you can tell them to get better, but if someone says "Bisu is only person to win a PvZ finals in the past 20 years of Korean starleagues" then wtf does their individual skill have to do with it? you know the problem is I watched many comments from TMNT before i started to talking in TL.net. Half was right many was maybe right and many of them was not right ( in my opinion ). So this was the reason when started to try something about him because in my opinion no problem if anyone thinks Z imba or P imba or T imba doesn matter, but if 15-20 times/topic writing about balance thats a toxic thing i think. So in the end all i wanted it little bit less talking about balance because in the end it will be always toxic things and brings things like now u see. So i dont think so many of people understood why i did what i did but ya i think it was for good purpose. But dont worry i stopped it and you will not see me, maybe once /month so  | ||
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TMNT
3122 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason. Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite. But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:34 TMNT wrote: Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite. But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you. While on the average it may be so, you don't see the full picture. The trends are set by the players and their wins against each other. I just pointed to a different picture than you presumed. | ||
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TMNT
3122 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:23 sas.Sziky wrote: you know the problem is I watched many comments from TMNT before i started to talking in TL.net. Half was right many was maybe right and many of them was not right ( in my opinion ). So this was the reason when started to try something about him because in my opinion no problem if anyone thinks Z imba or P imba or T imba doesn matter, but if 15-20 times/topic writing about balance thats a toxic thing i think. So in the end all i wanted it little bit less talking about balance because in the end it will be always toxic things and brings things like now u see. So i dont think so many of people understood why i did what i did but ya i think it was for good purpose. But dont worry i stopped it and you will not see me, maybe once /month so It's not that much and the last time I wrote much on this topic was in a thread specifically dedicated to Protoss underperforming (not started by me btw). But the bottom line is you don't own this forum nor do you make the rules. There are other people who are annoyed by my posts because they may distract the thread, but I don't get back at them like you, because only you (and eon) made this a personal vendetta against me. | ||
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway639 Posts
It would be so cool if Flash returned for season 20 (which I think I heard/read somewhere that he would?), spanked his way to the grand finals where he loses like 4-2 to Soulkey - just to prove SK's superiority. Then comes season 21, where Mini unleashes his full potential and beats SK in a nailbiting and epic 4-3 grand finals! This is my dream now. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26341 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:08 mtcn77 wrote: That is because us zerg players have longer memory that stretch out back to when starcraft esport originally started. There never was a weakness of protoss against zerg in a long oriented game. Zerg always lost in a macro and had to close out the game soon or protoss would start taking over zerg expansions. If your false narrative is not stretching thus far, that is on you. I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P. Flash is the only terran who could challenge that with good reason. Was there not? I played BW casually, I only discovered the glories of the pro scene later when SC2 eSports took me to TL, where I saw I’d missed all this stuff I’d have loved to have been a part in at the time. So over the years I religiously things like ASL, but also a ton of old VoDs. Read some of the fantastic articles on here, and props to those writers. I’m still a BW noob at the real nitty gritty level, I’ve not the time, skill or balls to bother trying to get competent at it in my advanced age. But this seems a wild take to me Isn’t the whole significance of the ‘Bisu buildTM’ that Zergs, but especially Savior were just destroying Toss in macro games at that time? And that style was so revolutionary precisely because it enabled Toss players to go toe-to-toe in macro games? Something Zergs initially struggled with but eventually did optimise against. What period are we even talking here? Your takes would make sense if you were some newcomer to the scene, but according to yourself you’re a veteran. You were there when the scrolls were written. ‘I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P’. Like what? Even if it’s a few percentage points here and there, the former has generally been the case. Borne out by the stats. It’s something most in the community seem to agree with as well. To varying degrees. Someone might think there’s a very slight favourability, others might go full balance whine. Your opinion is the exact opposite of both general community and sentiment, but also the raw stats of it. I just don’t get how you arrive at these conclusions. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26341 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:37 mtcn77 wrote: While on the average it may be so, you don't see the full picture. The trends are set by the players and their wins against each other. I just pointed to a different picture than you presumed. Your picture makes no sense, it’s not backed by anything. If I had some great piece of art and was like ‘it’s the bestest ever’ and you were like ‘here’s this other piece of great art I think it might be better’ it’s one thing. Instead you’re just presenting a blank canvas and saying like ‘yeah but imagine if the best art ever was on this.’ | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:47 WombaT wrote: Was there not? I played BW casually, I only discovered the glories of the pro scene later when SC2 eSports took me to TL, where I saw I’d missed all this stuff I’d have loved to have been a part in at the time. So over the years I religiously things like ASL, but also a ton of old VoDs. Read some of the fantastic articles on here, and props to those writers. I’m still a BW noob at the real nitty gritty level, I’ve not the time, skill or balls to bother trying to get competent at it in my advanced age. But this seems a wild take to me Isn’t the whole significance of the ‘Bisu buildTM’ that Zergs, but especially Savior were just destroying Toss in macro games at that time? And that style was so revolutionary precisely because it enabled Toss players to go toe-to-toe in macro games? Something Zergs initially struggled with but eventually did optimise against. What period are we even talking here? Your takes would make sense if you were some newcomer to the scene, but according to yourself you’re a veteran. You were there when the scrolls were written. ‘I have never witnessed T>Z>P, instead it was T<Z<P’. Like what? Even if it’s a few percentage points here and there, the former has generally been the case. Borne out by the stats. It’s something most in the community seem to agree with as well. To varying degrees. Someone might think there’s a very slight favourability, others might go full balance whine. Your opinion is the exact opposite of both general community and sentiment, but also the raw stats of it. I just don’t get how you arrive at these conclusions. It is personal anectode by me. You are free to challenge and have your views. All I saw was ultralisks vs archons and it failed bad. I'm talking of a time when you had vods, or rep files with 56K internet and you didn't even see the name of the player in the rep file. It was mostly european stuff, too. Yes koreans took it by storm, but if you didn't have kespa who would have told you? This is pre ASL, even maybe OSL's and MSL's. Battlereports were the only thing in town and it was hype. PS: I can go on, or you can concede protoss being scared of zerg is a very new and unsubstantiated concept. Historically protoss mopped the floor with zerg. We literally didn't know how to play a macro like july. PS 2: for those that have forgot I'm doing this service only to prove it will balance in the future. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26341 Posts
It’s utterly ludicrous. Whether I always agree with their conclusions, other Zergs at least couch their opinions in how the game is actually played and functions in the modern era. By your logic, if something was a certain way 15 years ago it’s still that way, so we can’t criticise modern developments because it was alright 15 years ago. Which is ludicrous. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
On May 30 2025 23:18 WombaT wrote: Your ‘service’ appears to be completely ignoring the history of the game and going ‘why doesn’t Protoss do this?’ with zero evidence to back up the viability of your proposals. It’s utterly ludicrous. Whether I always agree with their conclusions, other Zergs at least couch their opinions in how the game is actually played and functions in the modern era. By your logic, if something was a certain way 15 years ago it’s still that way, so we can’t criticise modern developments because it was alright 15 years ago. Which is ludicrous. Yeah, the history you are missing out is I'm skipping the entire timeline of 14-FE because I think this is what makes protoss lose games. I cannot prove my point because I'm not a pro, so what do you know! It must be ludicrous to even suggest such a thing, ideas are only transmitted through Snow to the all knowing TMNT bot that culminates in the reality as we know it, right? PS: you guys are really pissing me off. I'm going to make a list of all the games protoss players lost in this ASL with STUPID 14-FE. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey660 Posts
On May 30 2025 23:29 Magic Powers wrote: Alright mtcn, you got us all. That was very nice trolling, you earned it. I admire such a dedication to the craft. Yup, another troll scared I'm going to bring up Snow FE on DV. Rest assured, not now. There is time. It is hilarious though, you got to admit. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria380 Posts
Literally the reason he wins PvT is because he makes 95% more Zealots than other Ps. It just boggles the mind. It's complete E rank, the computer makes 12 Zealots and attacks you type of strategy. Problem is Hydras are better than Zealots. P.S. Not gonna read 800 comments but I love that TMNT is the protagonist. | ||
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G5
United States2921 Posts
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 30 2025 02:58 XenOsky wrote:  ok guys lets get serious... snow is currently #1 protoss, but not even close to #1 protoss ever, that discussion is basically between Nal_rA/Bisu/JangBi, and i take Bisu. shuttle is a legend for the protoss race, because he did what other protoss of much more higher skill couldnt. So once a champ, always a champ. But that doesnt make him a hall of famer, i mean, he is fighting vs Bisu,Stork, Nal_rA, Reach, JangBi, IntoTheRain, GARIMTO, Grrrr... Shuttle = AnyTime = free = KaL , none of em could compete for hall of fame compared to the others... You could say that Shuttle won a SL, but that particular SL was kinda lol level compared to the ones that earlier protoss champions won... saying that shuttle deserves a place in the hall of fame for the protoss race is like saying that Sync is hall of fame material for the Terran race, no sense. i mean Reach > Prime Boxer, thats like beating FlaSh on a finals, completly changing the match up for ever... that shit is hall of fame material... the same for Bisu > sAviOr... or JangBi back to back OSL wins.... Current snow wrecks all of those players in their primes, it's like putting Magnus vs morphy/Casablanca in chess. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1155 Posts
On May 30 2025 23:50 Nirli wrote: Some will call this trolling, but Best reached the finals because of Zealots. No sane Protoss makes so many. Literally the reason he wins PvT is because he makes 95% more Zealots than other Ps. It just boggles the mind. It's complete E rank, the computer makes 12 Zealots and attacks you type of strategy. Problem is Hydras are better than Zealots. P.S. Not gonna read 800 comments but I love that TMNT is the protagonist. He got to finals because he had great shuttle play, not because he made more zealot. Plus Light decided to throw his chances at finals away on a high risk gamble.... Light should've won if he played it normally. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7992 Posts
On May 30 2025 22:34 TMNT wrote: Maybe you should reconsider this because this is the first time I see anyone coming up witb T<Z<P, and there are the stats of about 100k games across 20 years of BW that suggests the complete opposite. But maybe you just revealed yourself as a troll so no point continuing with you. Engaging with mtcn is a complete waste of time. I don’t know if he is a troll or someone totally clueless that is super confident in his opinions. I spent the good part of a thread trying to explain to him that making queen to infest the CC during muta harass was never going to be meta, it was like talking to a brick wall. | ||
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![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Bisu_2008_%28cropped%29.png)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/7/78/Jangbi_jinslf.jpg/544px-Jangbi_jinslf.jpg)
