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On May 25 2025 22:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players.
I try to tell them Protoss is the only race with 850 base cost. It never dawns on them to keep a migrant army and just flood the map with expansions.
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On May 28 2025 04:29 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 19:18 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 18:36 Xeln4g4 wrote:On May 25 2025 18:10 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote:On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:35 oxKnu wrote:
Game 6 and Game 7 should be a cautionary tale for all protosses going forward. Never let games get to that stage, a failed, shitty timing attack is better than that... I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play. SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure. I mean, this is textbook ZvP knowledge though. Nothing new here. All top Zergs know this. Soulkey was helped by cross spawn on that game. A close spawn gate expand may lead the game in another direction, but then it comes down to players' skill with that early zealots vs lings manoeuver. And like I said, P has to be higher on skill to get out ahead on that. That's what Bisu has done over the years until his mechanics became no longer superior to his peers. That said, Best could have won 4-1 this series had he not fucked up the Death Valley game (But that doesn't mean he solves PvZ or is the better player. It just means he gets the correct map win order to get out of the 7-game series on top - kind of like what Mini used to do). i dont agree this is text book, this is pretty unusual, he anticipate 4th exp and give up on perfect simcity in both 2nd and 3rd expansion (and still hold fast zeals push, this is maybe Best biggest mistake in this game, he should have committed on attacking the 2nd exp, but probably he was not aware of ealy 3rd exp at this point, Best though he had time, he didnt have), and ALL this, from Soulkey side, was only possible to what he did in the opening. Soulkey kept the secret token for the last match in my opinion. Try yourself going on early 4th exp on ladder and see where you end up.... Yeah, no I mean textbook in general PvZ. That game Soulkey got slightly ahead with the opening and spawn location, then he kept getting ahead by being greedy bit by bit, here and there, while Best kept playing a middle of the road, safety first build, that got him nowhere: - Soulkey got to drone up, got Lair, Den and 5 Hatches without any zealot moving out on the map - He also got away with a Spire at 9th minute, because P saw the Lair, built 3 Sairs, then realized Z got Hydras already, and stopped building Sairs. So 3 useless Sairs for P. - He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back before P typed gg. If Best had committed to the push you said, he would have lost all the zealots anyway. It was too late at that point to even up the game just by brute force for P. Against that type of build from Z, P need some blind counter. A Sair mass Speedlot+1 push much earlier for example, but I have no doubt Soulkey could have adapted his build accordingly to not lose, and then take the game to late where he's favored again. It is interesting how we say the same thing on different occasions.
What I wrote there is in no way or form the same thing with anything you have ever said on this board...
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On May 28 2025 02:45 Kraekkling wrote:
btw, 9gate->expansion is imo the biggest development in PvZ in the last 10 years, maybe even since modern PvZ was invented by Bisu
why does noone talk about the fact that Best basically doesnt gateway first??? almost every zerg will agree that forge-first or nexus-first builds are much easier to play against compared to gateway first.
didn't Mini show us that P can win games with 1 gateway in the first 3-4 minutes? or get really ahead at least? even vs the very best Z pros?
Gate first is just a different way of opening, not necessarily the better one. Its success depends on how much the zealot pressure deals damage to Zerg (either by getting a drone, or focing good trades with lings), but the higher the skill level goes up, the harder it is to earn that damage because top Zergs have perfected ling control and drone/ling production balance.
On the other hand, you take much higher risk of losing the game outright if the first few zealots are not controlled perfectly and/or Zerg switches the ling flood gate, even AFTER you get good exchanges early on. You literally see that happened to Snow in game 1 vs Soulkey, game 2 Best vs Queen, or this game yesterday in Proleague (Snow's zealot pressure did so well he even killed the Pool, but one moment of inattention lost him the game immediately after that).
Best is probably not confident in his micro (and rightly so, he's not gonna outplay Soulkey with early zealot vs ling exchange) hence he didn't do Gate first.
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On May 28 2025 05:27 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 04:29 mtcn77 wrote:On May 25 2025 19:18 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 18:36 Xeln4g4 wrote:On May 25 2025 18:10 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote:On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:35 oxKnu wrote:
Game 6 and Game 7 should be a cautionary tale for all protosses going forward. Never let games get to that stage, a failed, shitty timing attack is better than that... I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play. SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure. I mean, this is textbook ZvP knowledge though. Nothing new here. All top Zergs know this. Soulkey was helped by cross spawn on that game. A close spawn gate expand may lead the game in another direction, but then it comes down to players' skill with that early zealots vs lings manoeuver. And like I said, P has to be higher on skill to get out ahead on that. That's what Bisu has done over the years until his mechanics became no longer superior to his peers. That said, Best could have won 4-1 this series had he not fucked up the Death Valley game (But that doesn't mean he solves PvZ or is the better player. It just means he gets the correct map win order to get out of the 7-game series on top - kind of like what Mini used to do). i dont agree this is text book, this is pretty unusual, he anticipate 4th exp and give up on perfect simcity in both 2nd and 3rd expansion (and still hold fast zeals push, this is maybe Best biggest mistake in this game, he should have committed on attacking the 2nd exp, but probably he was not aware of ealy 3rd exp at this point, Best though he had time, he didnt have), and ALL this, from Soulkey side, was only possible to what he did in the opening. Soulkey kept the secret token for the last match in my opinion. Try yourself going on early 4th exp on ladder and see where you end up.... Yeah, no I mean textbook in general PvZ. That game Soulkey got slightly ahead with the opening and spawn location, then he kept getting ahead by being greedy bit by bit, here and there, while Best kept playing a middle of the road, safety first build, that got him nowhere: - Soulkey got to drone up, got Lair, Den and 5 Hatches without any zealot moving out on the map - He also got away with a Spire at 9th minute, because P saw the Lair, built 3 Sairs, then realized Z got Hydras already, and stopped building Sairs. So 3 useless Sairs for P. - He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back before P typed gg. If Best had committed to the push you said, he would have lost all the zealots anyway. It was too late at that point to even up the game just by brute force for P. Against that type of build from Z, P need some blind counter. A Sair mass Speedlot+1 push much earlier for example, but I have no doubt Soulkey could have adapted his build accordingly to not lose, and then take the game to late where he's favored again. It is interesting how we say the same thing on different occasions. What I wrote there is in no way or form the same thing with anything you have ever said on this board...
Really? https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28253326
I go 2 full paragraphs attacking this notion and you get to claim my point without even a credit.
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On May 28 2025 05:45 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 02:45 Kraekkling wrote:
btw, 9gate->expansion is imo the biggest development in PvZ in the last 10 years, maybe even since modern PvZ was invented by Bisu
why does noone talk about the fact that Best basically doesnt gateway first??? almost every zerg will agree that forge-first or nexus-first builds are much easier to play against compared to gateway first.
didn't Mini show us that P can win games with 1 gateway in the first 3-4 minutes? or get really ahead at least? even vs the very best Z pros? Gate first is just a different way of opening, not necessarily the better one. Its success depends on how much the zealot pressure deals damage to Zerg (either by getting a drone, or focing good trades with lings), but the higher the skill level goes up, the harder it is to earn that damage because top Zergs have perfected ling control and drone/ling production balance. On the other hand, you take much higher risk of losing the game outright if the first few zealots are not controlled perfectly and/or Zerg switches the ling flood gate, even AFTER you get good exchanges early on. You literally see that happened to Snow in game 1 vs Soulkey, game 2 Best vs Queen, or this game yesterday in Proleague (Snow's zealot pressure did so well he even killed the Pool, but one moment of inattention lost him the game immediately after that). Best is probably not confident in his micro (and rightly so, he's not gonna outplay Soulkey with early zealot vs ling exchange) hence he didn't do Gate first.
Gate first has different mechanics. Protoss does it for the zerg to overstep zergling production and cut back drones. It is also very challenging to zergs to be put under performance pressure. It is the reverse of a hydralisk rush that you can back out. An early zergling rush is do or die - you are far off from your base and protoss is within base. That puts reinforcement advantage in protoss camp. Your window is likely closed even if you start an all in. That is the bet Bisu and Mini are making when doing gate first. Also, all gate firsts are proxy gates that are far from the enemy camp. There is a reason why they only work at near spawn small maps and not cross spawn large maps.
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Northern Ireland26052 Posts
On May 28 2025 04:39 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 22:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players. I try to tell them Protoss is the only race with 850 base cost. It never dawns on them to keep a migrant army and just flood the map with expansions.
For good reason.
In any field, it’s good to challenge conventional wisdom. But at some point, somebody has to actually prove the concept works and everyone has been doing it wrong all along.
Just takes one guy or gal. Doesn’t have to be an elite player. Destiny sure as fuck wasn’t elite at SC2, but even top players took notice at what he was doing with Infestor abuse.
I’d find it exceedingly, exceedingly unlikely that the Toss hivemind haven’t thought of such things, or tried to make it work.
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On May 28 2025 06:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 04:39 mtcn77 wrote:On May 25 2025 22:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players. I try to tell them Protoss is the only race with 850 base cost. It never dawns on them to keep a migrant army and just flood the map with expansions. For good reason. In any field, it’s good to challenge conventional wisdom. But at some point, somebody has to actually prove the concept works and everyone has been doing it wrong all along. Just takes one guy or gal. Doesn’t have to be an elite player. Destiny sure as fuck wasn’t elite at SC2, but even top players took notice at what he was doing with Infestor abuse. I’d find it exceedingly, exceedingly unlikely that the Toss hivemind haven’t thought of such things, or tried to make it work.
They have. I posted two back to back wins Mini had with this strategy. One against Queen. The other against Soulkey(which I misquoted as Queen the second time and hated on him).
PS: by the way, I put gate first into the same pool of strategies as the migrant army. It is the anti "FE turtling protoss strategy" that have plagued the minds of many protoss like the aeon of strife.
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On May 28 2025 06:39 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 05:45 TMNT wrote:On May 28 2025 02:45 Kraekkling wrote:
btw, 9gate->expansion is imo the biggest development in PvZ in the last 10 years, maybe even since modern PvZ was invented by Bisu
why does noone talk about the fact that Best basically doesnt gateway first??? almost every zerg will agree that forge-first or nexus-first builds are much easier to play against compared to gateway first.
didn't Mini show us that P can win games with 1 gateway in the first 3-4 minutes? or get really ahead at least? even vs the very best Z pros? Gate first is just a different way of opening, not necessarily the better one. Its success depends on how much the zealot pressure deals damage to Zerg (either by getting a drone, or focing good trades with lings), but the higher the skill level goes up, the harder it is to earn that damage because top Zergs have perfected ling control and drone/ling production balance. On the other hand, you take much higher risk of losing the game outright if the first few zealots are not controlled perfectly and/or Zerg switches the ling flood gate, even AFTER you get good exchanges early on. You literally see that happened to Snow in game 1 vs Soulkey, game 2 Best vs Queen, or this game yesterday in Proleague (Snow's zealot pressure did so well he even killed the Pool, but one moment of inattention lost him the game immediately after that). Best is probably not confident in his micro (and rightly so, he's not gonna outplay Soulkey with early zealot vs ling exchange) hence he didn't do Gate first. Gate first has different mechanics. Protoss does it for the zerg to overstep zergling production and cut back drones. It is also very challenging to zergs to be put under performance pressure. It is the reverse of a hydralisk rush that you can back out. An early zergling rush is do or die - you are far off from your base and protoss is within base. That puts reinforcement advantage in protoss camp. Your window is likely closed even if you start an all in. That is the bet Bisu and Mini are making when doing gate first. Also, all gate firsts are proxy gates that are far from the enemy camp. There is a reason why they only work at near spawn small maps and not cross spawn large maps.
Have you considered the possibility that the Zerg doesn't overstep Zergling production and makes just the right amount to shut down Zealot pressure?
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I really don't want to dive into that mess of a thread, but can you explain how what I wrote here about game 7 Best vs Soulkey:
"He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back "
is similar to anything you wrote in that lengthy post, 'cause I see no resemblance whatsoever?
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the zealot vs lings dynamics is where lots of player skill expression happens which is kinda cool
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I'm actually devastated for Best, he's the people's hero, and he got so so close this time
I think after he won the extended macro game, he got too comfortable and let the Zerg expand like crazy thinking he could starve him out again
I wouldn't have minded his citadel before stargate build in the final game
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Amazing finals, SK is so hard to beat in a Bo7, basically he gets better throughout the series and figures out his opponent. He figured Best was doing the same build from game 3 onwards and switched to a fast 4th + hive and just grinded Best down
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On May 27 2025 09:17 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 08:45 prion_ wrote:
It's funny that Protoss loses 3-4 in a very close final and the thread is like 10 pages of balance whining Always seems to be the way. Both Best and Snow the round before him aren’t exactly slouches, they’re not massively renowned for being absolute PvZ gods or specialists. And Soulkey is pretty fucking good in the matchup. Went down to the line in both and they were both pretty bloody good series. I’m much more of a noob with this game than some here, but I expected Soulkey to come through much more smoothly, and instead we got some pretty bloody close StarCraft, and overall this season of ASL has been great watching. Sad that neither Snow or Best got that elusive title sure, but some of the whine is mental to me.
Best was too predictable from game 3 onwards and Snow threw the last game. Soulkey is definitely beatable in PvZ. Best should have gotten a few builds from Mini
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On May 27 2025 18:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Man the fck are u smoking in Chile at this hour that u always become bipolar as fck. No bs bro gotta look into that shit. U deadass becoming Kanye West homie. LOL
not gonna lie, theres some truth in that post;;
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Best is literally half the player snow is. Decent finals but predictable.
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On May 28 2025 08:12 TMNT wrote:I really don't want to dive into that mess of a thread, but can you explain how what I wrote here about game 7 Best vs Soulkey: " He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back " is similar to anything you wrote in that lengthy post, 'cause I see no resemblance whatsoever?
Had his corsair cycled over SK's bases he would have had the proper information to catch the fake-out.
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On May 28 2025 17:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 08:12 TMNT wrote:I really don't want to dive into that mess of a thread, but can you explain how what I wrote here about game 7 Best vs Soulkey: " He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back " is similar to anything you wrote in that lengthy post, 'cause I see no resemblance whatsoever? Had his corsair cycled over SK's bases he would have had the proper information to catch the fake-out.
mtcn post is about some minerals mining economics (about Protoss should make less Probes and more Nexus, or something like that, I'll never know)
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Great series although the final game was kinda a bummer. Was rooting for Best to win. As expected of SK tho
Speaking of expected this thread turned into balance whine apparently
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On May 28 2025 00:23 Soft_General_5023 wrote:
so does the brood war needs balance change in favor of protoss?
or just better maps will do to satisfy stork's whiners army?
God no dont turn this game into sc2.
Balancing in favor of one race is like a can of worms where everybody just screams imba and wants their race buffed and whines when the other race gets buffed
If protoss was truly trash race in the first place we wouldnt have 2/4 of the top 4 being protoss
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On May 27 2025 09:17 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 08:45 prion_ wrote:
It's funny that Protoss loses 3-4 in a very close final and the thread is like 10 pages of balance whining Always seems to be the way. Both Best and Snow the round before him aren’t exactly slouches, they’re not massively renowned for being absolute PvZ gods or specialists. And Soulkey is pretty fucking good in the matchup. Went down to the line in both and they were both pretty bloody good series. I’m much more of a noob with this game than some here, but I expected Soulkey to come through much more smoothly, and instead we got some pretty bloody close StarCraft, and overall this season of ASL has been great watching. Sad that neither Snow or Best got that elusive title sure, but some of the whine is mental to me.
The balance whine is indeed mental considering half of the top 4 players are all protoss. It is like if protoss wins it is valid and if they dont it isnt.
The mental part is that SK is obviously pretty good at the moment but people still keep ranting about protoss losing. Like do we not start counting stuff like Queen losing Best if that's the case
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EPT
