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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1?No (24) 92% Yes (1) 4% If you have time (1) 4% 26 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1? (Vote): Yes
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On May 29 2025 14:32 pyrogenetix wrote:
Has Best ever talked about why he doesn't like to build reavers in late game PvZ?
Same as why he doesn't 1-gate and 2-gate. That is an entirely different build tree. It is very compromised and it is an optimiser build. Just like Royal. It can win you a single ASL like Mini has won, but it is not macro, so it won't win you a series of championships thereafter since it has its weaknesses because it is not due to macro. The opponent can play safe and pull ahead. It only works when you have successfully mindplayed the opponent into playing risky by flaunting a false weakness, I mean it needs two things to happen to work. Your opponent has to believe you are playing safe and needs to play aggressive while instead you are doing a rush and will actually beat him to the punch first. This doesn't happen forever, your opponent adapts first unless he is Soulkey and plays hydralisks vs JyJ undeterred.
PS: 1 reaver spends 3 probes mining just to attack. They are very expensive, you cannot make it a case against zerg. You will have to really cut your army size.
PS 2: and that is if they work at all. If zerg can snipe them, it is not just -3 probes mining deficit, it is also a loss. There is no window where they work.
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On May 29 2025 14:32 pyrogenetix wrote:
Has Best ever talked about why he doesn't like to build reavers in late game PvZ?
I'm not sure about Best, but sometimes Protosses complain that scarabs cost a lot so they drain your mineral bank
While if you get more templars you get storms and then get to make archons, both decent against dark swarm and you can trinkle out zealots
I would like to see late game DAs since feedback and maelstrom are really good
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On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on.
What do you mean gaslight tournament results? I mean what is it?
Also why do I always find it so hard to read your posts and understand what you're trying to say. It's like the first sentence and the second are not related, while there are some arbitrary terms being thrown around without context. Why suddenly talks about Queen, what is that "previous semi tournament", what the hell is "Snow being the best is not a current title"??? It's like you're living on your own world and speaking a different language.
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United Kingdom1677 Posts
I don't know about the balance but man, I am SO sad that Best didn't take this. And he came so so close too... You can never, ever bet against Soulkey though - guy has nerves of steel. He will grind it out, no matter the score! Gotta respect that.
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On May 29 2025 16:35 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on. What do you mean gaslight tournament results? I mean what is it? Also why do I always find it so hard to read your posts and understand what you're trying to say. It's like the first sentence and the second are not related, while there are some arbitrary terms being thrown around without context. Why suddenly talks about Queen, what is that "previous semi tournament", what the hell is "Snow being the best is not a current title"??? It's like you're living on your own world and speaking a different language.
I think the confusion is not mine. Shuttle said it, too. You guys really don't see eye to eye with the pros. Snow is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style.
It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier until he at least qualifies for Ro2 let one win the title. He isn't a title holder.
Also that semi pro tournament is the exact game you think Queen gave up and Shuttle won. It is the other way around. Queen miscalculated and Shuttle persevered. Incidentally, that is the same reason Snow was more likely to win his Soulkey game last season than this season. He persevered more, this season he played with less conviction.
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On May 29 2025 16:57 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 16:35 TMNT wrote:On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on. What do you mean gaslight tournament results? I mean what is it? Also why do I always find it so hard to read your posts and understand what you're trying to say. It's like the first sentence and the second are not related, while there are some arbitrary terms being thrown around without context. Why suddenly talks about Queen, what is that "previous semi tournament", what the hell is "Snow being the best is not a current title"??? It's like you're living on your own world and speaking a different language. I think the confusion is not mine. Shuttle said it, too. You guys really don't see eye to eye with the pros. Snow is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style. It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier until he at least qualifies for Ro2 let one win the title. He isn't a title holder. Also that semi pro tournament is the exact game you think Queen gave up and Shuttle won. It is the other way around. Queen miscalculated and Shuttle persevered. Incidentally, that is the same reason Snow was more likely to win his Soulkey game last season than this season. He persevered more, this season he played with less conviction.
Snow is currently the best protoss player in every matchup. In 2024 he came close to Bisu's PvZ skill, and in PvT and PvP he's consistently been the best player without a shred of a doubt. You can believe what you want, but Snow is objectively a fantastic all-rounder. He excels in every matchup.
Shuttle is nowhere near Snow's level. They're just not in the same league. Shuttle is the guy who gets all the pros riled up because he loses in fantastical ways, whereas Snow is always a safe bet.
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On May 29 2025 16:57 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 16:35 TMNT wrote:On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on. What do you mean gaslight tournament results? I mean what is it? Also why do I always find it so hard to read your posts and understand what you're trying to say. It's like the first sentence and the second are not related, while there are some arbitrary terms being thrown around without context. Why suddenly talks about Queen, what is that "previous semi tournament", what the hell is "Snow being the best is not a current title"??? It's like you're living on your own world and speaking a different language. I think the confusion is not mine. Shuttle said it, too. You guys really don't see eye to eye with the pros. Snow is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style. It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier until he at least qualifies for Ro2 let one win the title. He isn't a title holder. Also that semi pro tournament is the exact game you think Queen gave up and Shuttle won. It is the other way around. Queen miscalculated and Shuttle persevered. Incidentally, that is the same reason Snow was more likely to win his Soulkey game last season than this season. He persevered more, this season he played with less conviction.
Okay so you think in a weird way and express it in weirder English.
Saying Snow has the best PvT (not that I said it in this thread, mind, someone brought it up) = propose standings/rankings that don't match ASL results (why does it have to match anyway) = "gaslight tournament results" (whatever it means)
Shuttle vs Queen in super ace of online daily Proleague = semi pro tournament.
Queen throwing the game = Queen giving up. Oh wait. I think here it is because of your English. Throwing the game means you blow your lead by making mistakes, but generally not intentional. Giving up means you lose the will to try and win the game. What I said ( Queen throwing) is closer to what you think (Queen miscalculating). Wtf this does my head in...
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I appoint TMNT as mtcn's translator.
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On May 29 2025 17:47 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 16:57 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 16:35 TMNT wrote:On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on. What do you mean gaslight tournament results? I mean what is it? Also why do I always find it so hard to read your posts and understand what you're trying to say. It's like the first sentence and the second are not related, while there are some arbitrary terms being thrown around without context. Why suddenly talks about Queen, what is that "previous semi tournament", what the hell is "Snow being the best is not a current title"??? It's like you're living on your own world and speaking a different language. I think the confusion is not mine. Shuttle said it, too. You guys really don't see eye to eye with the pros. Snow is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style. It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier until he at least qualifies for Ro2 let one win the title. He isn't a title holder. Also that semi pro tournament is the exact game you think Queen gave up and Shuttle won. It is the other way around. Queen miscalculated and Shuttle persevered. Incidentally, that is the same reason Snow was more likely to win his Soulkey game last season than this season. He persevered more, this season he played with less conviction. Okay so you think in a weird way and express it in weirder English. Saying Snow has the best PvT (not that I said it in this thread, mind, someone brought it up) = propose standings/rankings that don't match ASL results (why does it have to match anyway) = "gaslight tournament results" (whatever it means) Shuttle vs Queen in super ace of online daily Proleague = semi pro tournament. Queen throwing the game = Queen giving up. Oh wait. I think here it is because of your English. Throwing the game means you blow your lead by making mistakes, but generally not intentional. Giving up means you lose the will to try and win the game. What I said ( Queen throwing) is closer to what you think (Queen miscalculating). Wtf this does my head in...
There is always a strawman you can fall back on. I think it is habitual for you.
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On May 29 2025 18:10 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 17:47 TMNT wrote:On May 29 2025 16:57 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 16:35 TMNT wrote:On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on. What do you mean gaslight tournament results? I mean what is it? Also why do I always find it so hard to read your posts and understand what you're trying to say. It's like the first sentence and the second are not related, while there are some arbitrary terms being thrown around without context. Why suddenly talks about Queen, what is that "previous semi tournament", what the hell is "Snow being the best is not a current title"??? It's like you're living on your own world and speaking a different language. I think the confusion is not mine. Shuttle said it, too. You guys really don't see eye to eye with the pros. Snow is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style. It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier until he at least qualifies for Ro2 let one win the title. He isn't a title holder. Also that semi pro tournament is the exact game you think Queen gave up and Shuttle won. It is the other way around. Queen miscalculated and Shuttle persevered. Incidentally, that is the same reason Snow was more likely to win his Soulkey game last season than this season. He persevered more, this season he played with less conviction. Okay so you think in a weird way and express it in weirder English. Saying Snow has the best PvT (not that I said it in this thread, mind, someone brought it up) = propose standings/rankings that don't match ASL results (why does it have to match anyway) = "gaslight tournament results" (whatever it means) Shuttle vs Queen in super ace of online daily Proleague = semi pro tournament. Queen throwing the game = Queen giving up. Oh wait. I think here it is because of your English. Throwing the game means you blow your lead by making mistakes, but generally not intentional. Giving up means you lose the will to try and win the game. What I said ( Queen throwing) is closer to what you think (Queen miscalculating). Wtf this does my head in... There is always a strawman you can fall back on. I think it is habitual for you.
Not exactly the definition of strawman but if we are talking about that then you, intentionally or unintentionally, made the strawman first by interpreting everything in your own way. But whatever... not like anyone in this board interested in your multiple ground-breaking game theories
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Best ASL ever. Sad and disappointed that Protoss yet again fails in a final. Really sick of watching the same player win, SK is incredibly skill but not the most entertaining style to watch. Hyped about Flash coming back to challenge SK.
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On May 29 2025 18:19 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 18:10 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 17:47 TMNT wrote:On May 29 2025 16:57 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 16:35 TMNT wrote:On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on. What do you mean gaslight tournament results? I mean what is it? Also why do I always find it so hard to read your posts and understand what you're trying to say. It's like the first sentence and the second are not related, while there are some arbitrary terms being thrown around without context. Why suddenly talks about Queen, what is that "previous semi tournament", what the hell is "Snow being the best is not a current title"??? It's like you're living on your own world and speaking a different language. I think the confusion is not mine. Shuttle said it, too. You guys really don't see eye to eye with the pros. Snow is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style. It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier until he at least qualifies for Ro2 let one win the title. He isn't a title holder. Also that semi pro tournament is the exact game you think Queen gave up and Shuttle won. It is the other way around. Queen miscalculated and Shuttle persevered. Incidentally, that is the same reason Snow was more likely to win his Soulkey game last season than this season. He persevered more, this season he played with less conviction. Okay so you think in a weird way and express it in weirder English. Saying Snow has the best PvT (not that I said it in this thread, mind, someone brought it up) = propose standings/rankings that don't match ASL results (why does it have to match anyway) = "gaslight tournament results" (whatever it means) Shuttle vs Queen in super ace of online daily Proleague = semi pro tournament. Queen throwing the game = Queen giving up. Oh wait. I think here it is because of your English. Throwing the game means you blow your lead by making mistakes, but generally not intentional. Giving up means you lose the will to try and win the game. What I said ( Queen throwing) is closer to what you think (Queen miscalculating). Wtf this does my head in... There is always a strawman you can fall back on. I think it is habitual for you. Not exactly the definition of strawman but if we are talking about that then you, intentionally or unintentionally, made the strawman first by interpreting everything in your own way. But whatever... not like anyone in this board interested in your multiple ground-breaking game theories
That is a strawman, too. I'm not the one challenging results calling for SC2 patches. Try to have fun will you? Congratulate some more. It is a great time for Starcraft.
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On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on.
Imbalance doesn't mean the favored race has a 100% win rate. Incredibly bad faith interpretation.
I don't agree with everything TMNT says but at least he backs up his opinions with stats and Korean pro opinions. The "imbalance doesn't exist" side apparently has nothing to add to the conversation other than strawman arguments.
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On May 29 2025 20:00 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 11:56 mtcn77 wrote:On May 29 2025 06:03 LightSpectra wrote:
Mods, is there a reason you're allowing Sziky and eon to blatantly troll and contribute nothing of value? It is more TMNT. He actively gaslights tournament results. If Queen was any good at that previous semi tournament, he would show up to the finals, end of story. Snow being the best is not a current title, nor ever was. Just accept and move on. Imbalance doesn't mean the favored race has a 100% win rate. Incredibly bad faith interpretation. I don't agree with everything TMNT says but at least he backs up his opinions with stats and Korean pro opinions. The "imbalance doesn't exist" side apparently has nothing to add to the conversation other than strawman arguments.
All pros said Best would win. Wonderful example bringing in pros to disprove your point.
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On May 29 2025 16:57 mtcn77 wrote:
[now is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style.
It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier
Snow is below Shuttle?
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On May 29 2025 19:48 mtcn77 wrote:
I'm not the one challenging results calling for SC2 patches
Neither am I.
Btw, the 'Korean pros opinion' refers to the debate between me and eon about the Shuttle vs Queen game, whether Queen was ahead and threw the game or not. It's not their opinions on PvZ in general or Best vs Soulkey finals lol.
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Bro, back in the day, you settled arguments with a grudge match. TMNT vs Sziky/Eon BO9
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On May 29 2025 21:25 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 19:48 mtcn77 wrote:
I'm not the one challenging results calling for SC2 patches Neither am I. Btw, the 'Korean pros opinion' refers to the debate between me and eon about the Shuttle vs Queen game, whether Queen was ahead and threw the game or not. It's not their opinions on PvZ in general or Best vs Soulkey finals lol.
You are really cherrypicking. You cannot keep me out of that debate, nor can you trust pro views on Shuttle vs Queen game and not ask why their SK Best prediction went horribly wrong. I can snapshot the start of the finals to prove a point pros don't always get it right and we can have debate on anything they say. It was some wild 8:1 9:1 guess Best would win. Alas, I stick to facts and expect you to hold yourself to the same standard.
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This circular loop of "you're not good enough to have an opinion" -> "well Korean pros also believe this" -> "but Korean pros are wrong sometimes" -> "then let's just use statistics" -> "you're not good enough to have an opinion" is incredibly dumb.
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On May 29 2025 21:23 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 16:57 mtcn77 wrote:
[now is a good PvT player, but not a good all-rounder protoss. Unfortunately, you don't go very deep if you have such a handicapped style.
It is gaslighting when your proposed standings don't fit tournament results. As it stands Snow is below Shuttle 1 tier Snow is below Shuttle?
Yep, according to facts. I don't like it, too. Snow is some boring gamer while Shuttle is a hotshot commander who is past his prime and like many past prime heroes of the game, it kills me to know that.
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EPT
