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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1?No (25) 93% Yes (1) 4% If you have time (1) 4% 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1? (Vote): Yes
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On May 27 2025 03:20 mOnion wrote:
I just wish Soulkey looked dominant in a way that wasn’t abusing the broken matchup. Getting to hydra bust your way to free contain, delaying upgrades, and contain toss until they mine out 2 base and have to push to mine at all.
Snow has reaver control that sets him apart, Terran have certain styles and timings that set them apart. But every ZvP is Hero or SK or Queen just hydra busting with 0 downside then transitioning into whatever they want.
Maps can’t fix it either, Toss have to go back to the drawing board on builds bc this meta is broken, blatantly.
Games you describe were largely the games SK lost
Game 1 SK went straight muta and killed a fast citadel build
Game 3 SK built nothing but lings
Game 6 SK went fast double evo
Game 7 SK didn't go for a quick busy or even 9-7-3 it was greedy heavy econ with late hydra and relatively fast upgrades to stop sair production and go into muta
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I don't know about balance but Best's utter disregard of the safety of his HTs was something out of this world...
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You can call it quick or Econ hydra or whatever, toss can’t tell the difference and has to throw down 10 cannons regardless or else it’s auto lose. That’s the issue, everything is guessing, it’s the only matchup that’s so blind and so weak to everything if you choose wrong. It’s not a discussion, I’ve watched the exact same PvZ over and over all season, it’s boring
On May 27 2025 06:04 nikolaus8844 wrote:
I don't know about balance but Best's utter disregard of the safety of his HTs was something out of this world... SK was literally running rings around him in that regard
When Zerg decides to kill HT there’s nothing toss can do. Same for T when they send vultures, dragoons fire too slow and HTs are the most easily sniped spell caster. You just overbuild and hope some make it through
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I think Bests 3 gate adapt was really something interesting and was hoping to see something like that sooner or later.
One think I'm looking out for is if they start mixing in reavers sooner, coupled with an earlier third. There's very little Z can do when you block a ramp with zealots and reavers and cannons pre hive. Maybe I'm just not understanding the matchup. P always feels way too scared to move out or to expand. Maybe they should overlord hunt a little more consistently to deny vision so that they can take expansions less obviously?
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On May 27 2025 03:20 mOnion wrote:
I just wish Soulkey looked dominant in a way that wasn’t abusing the broken matchup. Getting to hydra bust your way to free contain, delaying upgrades, and contain toss until they mine out 2 base and have to push to mine at all.
Snow has reaver control that sets him apart, Terran have certain styles and timings that set them apart. But every ZvP is Hero or SK or Queen just hydra busting with 0 downside then transitioning into whatever they want.
Maps can’t fix it either, Toss have to go back to the drawing board on builds bc this meta is broken, blatantly.
if this is your hot take on Soulkey's play then you're missing every single nuance in his play that makes him stand out from the rest. Soulkey plays with a focus on reading and braining his way to maximized input/output. No other zerg has as of yet been able to replicate what Soulkey does. You're ignoring most of his play and skills by boiling it down to "hydra bust with 0 downisde".
also in response to tiers per race.
I'll argue only SnOw is tier 1 protoss, much like how only Soulkey is tier 1 zerg, and Light and Flash are the only tier 1 terrans. JyJ could have grown into a tier 1 terran but he legit cut his activity by 80% after he won ASL. he used to ladder and spon a lot, and now its basically zero ladder and zero spons.
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It's funny that Protoss loses 3-4 in a very close final and the thread is like 10 pages of balance whining
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Northern Ireland25443 Posts
On May 27 2025 08:45 prion_ wrote:
It's funny that Protoss loses 3-4 in a very close final and the thread is like 10 pages of balance whining
Always seems to be the way.
Both Best and Snow the round before him aren’t exactly slouches, they’re not massively renowned for being absolute PvZ gods or specialists. And Soulkey is pretty fucking good in the matchup. Went down to the line in both and they were both pretty bloody good series.
I’m much more of a noob with this game than some here, but I expected Soulkey to come through much more smoothly, and instead we got some pretty bloody close StarCraft, and overall this season of ASL has been great watching.
Sad that neither Snow or Best got that elusive title sure, but some of the whine is mental to me.
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At the highest level of play, no other zerg player seem to match SK's ability to make the game look so imbalanced. Just like Flash did when he was winning.
But he was almost beat in this ASL.
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I mean protoss have been dying to hydra busts for 2 decades+ at this point. I think last 1 year is the first time protoss actually don't die all the time to hydra busts anymore for the first time since the game was played competetively.
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I just come back from 20+years of inactivity on broodwar. Amazing tournament! I was wondering if it's still possible to get the replays of the matches. I remember in the old days you could, but i don't see any option to do so atm.
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On May 27 2025 15:19 Wyv wrote:
I just come back from 20+years of inactivity on broodwar. Amazing tournament! I was wondering if it's still possible to get the replays of the matches. I remember in the old days you could, but i don't see any option to do so atm.
I don't think so, only Vods.
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On May 27 2025 06:04 nikolaus8844 wrote:
I don't know about balance but Best's utter disregard of the safety of his HTs was something out of this world...
I believe that’s the next big thing Protoss players need to figure out and refine. Many, many games are lost just because crucial storms are not available because the Templars were totally out of position.
I think there is something in the way people move and hotkey their armies that needs to be discovered there.
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On May 27 2025 07:17 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
if this is your hot take on Soulkey's play then you're missing every single nuance in his play that makes him stand out from the rest. Soulkey plays with a focus on reading and braining his way to maximized input/output. No other zerg has as of yet been able to replicate what Soulkey does. You're ignoring most of his play and skills by boiling it down to "hydra bust with 0 downisde".
What nobody mentioned is that SK is not the best ZvP player. Statistically, Soma is. SK did win in ASL more often, but even winning this ASL is partly luck. If he met BeSt in an earlier round and played a BO5 BeSt would have knocked him out (since he went 3-2 before losing 3-4)
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On May 27 2025 08:45 prion_ wrote:
It's funny that Protoss loses 3-4 in a very close final and the thread is like 10 pages of balance whining
cause he was not going to win the series regardless of the score... hows that shit so difficult to understand?
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On May 26 2025 19:20 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 19:04 Bonyth wrote:
People really use tournament statistics to defend the balance and protoss race? We have 20+ years of tournament statistics, least protoss champions, least protoss bonjwas.
But hey, 'you are not looking at the statistics correctly, look at them in the way i look at them: most protoss representatives in ro376'. you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Heck, most competitors perform worse in ASL than they do in online competition, in the comfort of their own home and own set-up. Judging players on their ability to play in a sub-optimal environment is going to create inaccurate data. It just shows which individuals can perform best in that sub-optimal environment.
thats bullshit, u can't argue about balance looking at lower level shit...
balance is mesured at the highest level, and that level is finals of OSL MSL ASL KSL and SSL...
KCM proleague and all that shit, makes it so that the fucking #15 zerg player on the world can lose to #3 protoss...and u're trying to use those games to argue that zerg is equal to protoss...
when shit gets real and the #1 protoss is vs #1 zerg ... we know the result.
On May 26 2025 12:25 bochs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 10:41 Simplistik wrote:On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records. I guess for team leagues we can look at KCM and Major Proleague and he's very good in both... SK's performance in KCM is mediocre at best, and sometimes even disappointing. He seems to not put up his best fight when stake is not high enough. I remember he skipped a KCM finals even though he qualified. Even in ro4 vs Snow and the finals vs Best, he was gambling with nonstandard plays trying to score quick and easy wins, and only pulled off standard play as plan B if that didn't work well. I wonder if he had played standard to start with, whether he'd 4:0 or 4:1 vs Snow and Best.
THATS MY FUCKING POINT, THE SERIES WERE CLOSE CAUSE HE WAS FUCKING TROLLING!!!
JUST LOOK AT THE DAMN GAMES THAT HE LOSES...
i dont trust his "3-4 comeback every series i play" bullshit, if i have to guess he is just betting on the side and making some extra money with his losses;;;;
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Man the fck are u smoking in Chile at this hour that u always become bipolar as fck. No bs bro gotta look into that shit. U deadass becoming Kanye West homie. LOL
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Well Hydra opening is most broken build in the game but somehow it didn't really manifest into Protoss losses in both finals and semifinals. In fact iirc all the games that Soulkey attempted to bust Snow or Best he eventually lost.
However it should not mask the issue of the build, even when Protoss win. I would like to point out the Snow vs Soulkey game on Eclipse as an example. Soulkey opens 3H Spire as usual but then he builds 2 Hydra Dens for a quick, surprising Hydra bust:
- he also builds some Scourges to force the Corsairs home until they get critical mass, so logically Protoss shouldn't move their Corsairs out (if Corsairs are out and get caught by Muta Scourge, then Protoss will be called stupid for doing something that doesn't make sense)
- but Snow somehow slips a Zealot out on the map. This is totally a mistake from Soulkey for not watching the entrance of Snow despite some Lings and Scourges parking there.
- the Zealot sees the Hydras and Snow immediately builds more Cannons (on top of the 2.5 Cannons already in place). Snow eventually holds the bust, building a total of 10 Cannons, and 4 more after the bust ends (because you still need to be safe after that). During the hold, he has a clutch DT to save from the first Hydra dive, then has to pull all the probes to block, then has 2 clutch storms (literally just finishes when only 1 Cannon remains).
- the game goes on and Soulkey builds 9 Mutas with the hope of turning the game upside down, AND puts down a 4th before Snow puts down his 3rd, but Snow plays perfectly from there and ends the game.
You can't possibly tell me it's a fair game state when one race is able to dictate the game that much just by doing their own thing, while playing solid is not even enough for the other race because they also need to rely on their opponent mistakes. Snow's Zealot should never be let out on the map anyway, but thanks to Soulkey mistake, Snow is able to...almost lose the game if not for multiple clutch moments. In addition to that, Soulkey could just back off for a macro game and still be fine. Committing to the bust is his other mistake.
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On May 27 2025 17:24 XenOsky wrote:
THATS MY FUCKING POINT, THE SERIES WERE CLOSE CAUSE HE WAS FUCKING TROLLING!!!
JUST LOOK AT THE DAMN GAMES THAT HE LOSES...
i dont trust his "3-4 comeback every series i play" bullshit, if i have to guess he is just betting on the side and making some extra money with his losses;;;;
You need calm down bro. Soulkey wasn't THAT good or that stupid to become the second Savior.
The truth is in this matchup, one mistake tends to cost P the game. But one mistake by Z only gets P a bit of an advantage. Snow and Best were able to capitalise on Soulkey mistakes in their wins.
And Z if played correctly from behind, has the tools to make a comeback (see Snow vs Soulkey on Dominator, or Best vs Soulkey on Deja Vu). But Protoss when behind in this matchup, has no mechanism for a comeback (see game 7 both series).
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this TMNT guy seems smart, I think we should take it seriously. It would be a big disappointment if it turns out that he doesn't even reach that B rank.
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EPT
