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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On May 26 2025 06:26 TMNT wrote: Only foreigners care about goat and bonjwa. Korean don't. On the Afreeca stream after the last game I saw a comment scroll by that was like "<Korean characters>GOAT", so I guess some of them care. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
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bochs
111 Posts
On May 26 2025 10:41 Simplistik wrote: I guess for team leagues we can look at KCM and Major Proleague and he's very good in both... SK's performance in KCM is mediocre at best, and sometimes even disappointing. He seems to not put up his best fight when stake is not high enough. I remember he skipped a KCM finals even though he qualified. Even in ro4 vs Snow and the finals vs Best, he was gambling with nonstandard plays trying to score quick and easy wins, and only pulled off standard play as plan B if that didn't work well. I wonder if he had played standard to start with, whether he'd 4:0 or 4:1 vs Snow and Best. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 26 2025 14:07 HOLYBATS wrote: Comparing different era is silly. I hope Flash returns next season and we will have some competition. Why is it silly? It is the exact same game it ever was and you can literally watch replays to judge the quality of play. So many fans have rose tinted glasses when it comes to kespa, the nostalgia overrides objectivity | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
On May 26 2025 12:03 Highways wrote: Game 6 and 7 shows that Protoss cannot match Zerg in macro game. Best was powering for so long on 2 base and mass gateway, and couldn't even hold his third base against a Zerg who was massing drones with 4 base and going quick hive. Agreed. Game 6 and 7 made it quite clear in a straight up macro game, protoss has no chance. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
On May 26 2025 14:19 LpTraxamillion wrote: Why is it silly? It is the exact same game it ever was and you can literally watch replays to judge the quality of play. So many fans have rose tinted glasses when it comes to kespa, the nostalgia overrides objectivity | ||
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iopq
United States934 Posts
On May 26 2025 15:23 pyrogenetix wrote: Agreed. Game 6 and 7 made it quite clear in a straight up macro game, protoss has no chance. Did you not watch the Radeon game? It was a macro game, Protoss took ONE good fight at the 4th and basically won the game and I would consider SK to be ahead after the weak zealot harass | ||
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iopq
United States934 Posts
On May 26 2025 12:24 Galacsia wrote: imo the biggest problem in PvZ is scouting. Protoss has the tools to fend off against anything from Zerg but not being able to know what's coming (especially early on) and considering Protoss stuff costs more than Zerg stuff, tends to make Protoss players invest a lot into something that may or may not pay off. This is just ZvT in reverse, Zerg MUST go muta to start because you don't know what the Terran has. He could actually be going mech or valk or fast vessel, you just don't know seeing a barracks + 2 supply depot wall at the front In the same vein, you must get at least one corsair to verify what the Zerg is doing and adjust after that | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands903 Posts
for example best beat a queen who was in good shape. or how mini stomped a highly active effort 4-0 in asl 16. Asl15 best 3-1 action. Or asl 13. Rain beat soulkey and soma. And then Bisu beat Soma in 3rd place match. Or how Soulkey lost 4-0 vs snow last week in an online best of 7. the finals sample size is sooooooooooo small that it is not a good statistical representation of balance. Look at all best of sets over 5 or 7, offline and online, and you get the actual state of balance. for example, you can flip a coin 10 times and get head 8 times and tails two times. but if you flip it 100 times you will be much closer to 50/50. and if you flip it a 1000 times you will be even closer to 500/500. Small sample sizes are terrible for data interpretation. | ||
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femtehjulet
17 Posts
On May 26 2025 16:53 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: dont look at just the finals to determinenif P has a fair chance against Z. look at the entire bracket of a tournament. if you think that is too much, look at the top 8 instead. for example best beat a queen who was in good shape. or how mini stomped a highly active effort 4-0 in asl 16. Asl15 best 3-1 action. Or asl 13. Rain beat soulkey and soma. And then Bisu beat Soma in 3rd place match. Or how Soulkey lost 4-0 vs snow last week in an online best of 7. the finals sample size is sooooooooooo small that it is not a good statistical representation of balance. Look at all best of sets over 5 or 7, offline and online, and you get the actual state of balance. for example, you can flip a coin 10 times and get head 8 times and tails two times. but if you flip it 100 times you will be much closer to 50/50. and if you flip it a 1000 times you will be even closer to 500/500. Small sample sizes are terrible for data interpretation. Agree. Best - Queen 4-3, Snow - SK 3-4, Best - SK 3-4. What more to ask for in terms of balance? 1 Z, 1 T and 2 P top 4. SK is imba. Not Z vs P. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1572 Posts
On May 26 2025 14:19 LpTraxamillion wrote: Why is it silly? It is the exact same game it ever was and you can literally watch replays to judge the quality of play. So many fans have rose tinted glasses when it comes to kespa, the nostalgia overrides objectivity It is not the exact same game, you could make a comparison if the maps were identical. Destination alone would break the current meta in z v p for instance, so the skill gap might not be as obvious as you state, and he depends also which players we are talking about of course... Btw, MAKE TAU CROSS GREAT AGAIN! | ||
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Bonyth
Poland565 Posts
But hey, 'you are not looking at the statistics correctly, look at them in the way i look at them: most protoss representatives in ro376'. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:04 Bonyth wrote: People really use tournament statistics to defend the balance and protoss race? We have 20+ years of tournament statistics, least protoss champions, least protoss bonjwas. But hey, 'you are not looking at the statistics correctly, look at them in the way i look at them: most protoss representatives in ro376'. I am curious how will the statistics look like if we make a point system for all the tournaments semifinals and finals, where semifinal is 1 point, final - 2p and a winner - 3p. and see how many points each race will get, since, just the winners might not be the best measure, but ro376 doesn't show a lot too | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands903 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:04 Bonyth wrote: People really use tournament statistics to defend the balance and protoss race? We have 20+ years of tournament statistics, least protoss champions, least protoss bonjwas. But hey, 'you are not looking at the statistics correctly, look at them in the way i look at them: most protoss representatives in ro376'. you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Heck, most competitors perform worse in ASL than they do in online competition, in the comfort of their own home and own set-up. Judging players on their ability to play in a sub-optimal environment is going to create inaccurate data. It just shows which individuals can perform best in that sub-optimal environment. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:20 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Do we have this data though? What does it show? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands903 Posts
we do. you can find every match in which money was in someway invovled on eloboard. Some of the starcast soop duels get removed on request by starcast because he wants to paywall the games behind membership on his YT. the criteria to qualify for reporting on eloboard is for both player's POV to be on vod. https://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=rank_list | ||
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TMNT
2745 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:20 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: you are trying to confirm your bias instead of looking at data objectively. If you want accurate data, look at everything. Ultimate Battle, Chinese spons, Kcm, proleagues, other tournaments, etc. Looking at just one single subset of data to draw conclusions is not accurate. In the remastered era 99% of play is online. Take the online data into consideration because thats where most of the competition happens. ASL is the most premier tournament, but its data is not more important than the rest. Heck, most competitors perform worse in ASL than they do in online competition, in the comfort of their own home and own set-up. Judging players on their ability to play in a sub-optimal environment is going to create inaccurate data. It just shows which individuals can perform best in that sub-optimal environment. I'm surprised you said this when you know full well the global PvZ win rate on eloboard is 47.4% out of 25k games that cover all of the tournaments above. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands903 Posts
On May 26 2025 19:25 TMNT wrote: I'm surprised you said this when you know full well the global PvZ win rate on eloboard is 47.4% out of 25k games that cover all of the tournaments above. didnt we also once reduce the pool of players used in the data to top 5 for each race and get even closer to 50%, by removing weak links like ysc and tyson for example. Also 47.4% is quite close to 50/50. also zerg has 44.9% vs terran. statistically thats, based on your argument, much worse, which it is. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iHIipgJ.png) also if we look at statistics by map, we do see maps that have negative zerg winratea. Citadel, invader, butter, blitz y, tempest, minstrel, Revolver for example. Apocalypse seems most balanced at 50.8% | ||
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