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On May 25 2025 17:46 oxKnu wrote:
Best has very poor corsair micro and a bit of a clumsy approach to the early game in PvZ and that will catch-up sooner or later in a bo7.
I will say, I really do hope these organizers stop punishing Protoss with these mappools. In what world does the weakest race routinely get punished by the map choices and that's a good thing. I hope this non-sense stops at some point.
Fck outta here with that rethoric. RESPECT GREATNESS WHEN YOU SEE IT.
The maps never been better for protoss. DO you know how i say this with a straight face ? CUZ THERE IS LITERALLY 1 ZERG. ONLY 1 DOING THIS SHIT!!!!.
Make the maps more zerg favored and you will see how protoss will do better i promess. Soulkey havent played zerg vs zerg in so long. LMAO
That said Im expecting map makers to make it even harder next season.
Holyshit SK just won 4 ASLS. went to game 7 and that guy was holding that microphone like nothing not adrenaline nothing brother. At this point he is on sanax or ACtually a psychopath cuz there is no way.
I mean shit At this point im giving to him the most ICY player to be in Finals. NO QUESTION.
GREATEST ZERG POST KESPA ERA. NO QUESTION.
AND WIN 1 more ASL in A ROW LIKE THIS IM GIVING TO HIM THE ZERG GOAT STATUS NO QUESTION
RESPECT GREATNESS WHEN YOU SEE IT.
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On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 17:35 oxKnu wrote:
Game 6 and Game 7 should be a cautionary tale for all protosses going forward. Never let games get to that stage, a failed, shitty timing attack is better than that... I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play.
SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure.
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On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote:SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure.
Why Protoss and Terran don't do opposite things to Zerg?
Or Zerg is the strongest race is normal thing in the best balance game?
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On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:35 oxKnu wrote:
Game 6 and Game 7 should be a cautionary tale for all protosses going forward. Never let games get to that stage, a failed, shitty timing attack is better than that... I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play. SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure.
I mean, this is textbook ZvP knowledge though. Nothing new here. All top Zergs know this. Soulkey was helped by cross spawn on that game. A close spawn gate expand may lead the game in another direction, but then it comes down to players' skill with that early zealots vs lings manoeuver. And like I said, P has to be higher on skill to get out ahead on that. That's what Bisu has done over the years until his mechanics became no longer superior to his peers.
That said, Best could have won 4-1 this series had he not fucked up the Death Valley game (But that doesn't mean he solves PvZ or is the better player. It just means he gets the correct map win order to get out of the 7-game series on top - kind of like what Mini used to do).
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This series and season did not change anything. Soulkey was already a legend going into this.
This final was ok-ish. Some mindgames, some mistakes (from both sides) and the full set. You can't complain about it considering some of the finals we've had in the past.
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On May 25 2025 18:10 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote:On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:35 oxKnu wrote:
Game 6 and Game 7 should be a cautionary tale for all protosses going forward. Never let games get to that stage, a failed, shitty timing attack is better than that... I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play. SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure. I mean, this is textbook ZvP knowledge though. Nothing new here. All top Zergs know this. Soulkey was helped by cross spawn on that game. A close spawn gate expand may lead the game in another direction, but then it comes down to players' skill with that early zealots vs lings manoeuver. And like I said, P has to be higher on skill to get out ahead on that. That's what Bisu has done over the years until his mechanics became no longer superior to his peers. That said, Best could have won 4-1 this series had he not fucked up the Death Valley game (But that doesn't mean he solves PvZ or is the better player. It just means he gets the correct map win order to get out of the 7-game series on top - kind of like what Mini used to do).
i dont agree this is text book, this is pretty unusual, he anticipate 4th exp and give up on perfect simcity in both 2nd and 3rd expansion (and still hold fast zeals push, this is maybe Best biggest mistake in this game, he should have committed on attacking the 2nd exp, but probably he was not aware of ealy 3rd exp at this point, Best though he had time, he didnt have), and ALL this, from Soulkey side, was only possible to what he did in the opening. Soulkey kept the secret token for the last match in my opinion. Try yourself going on early 4th exp on ladder and see where you end up....
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On May 25 2025 18:36 Xeln4g4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2025 18:10 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:58 foxmeep wrote:On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:On May 25 2025 17:35 oxKnu wrote:
Game 6 and Game 7 should be a cautionary tale for all protosses going forward. Never let games get to that stage, a failed, shitty timing attack is better than that... I kinda begrudgingly have to agree with this. Can't wait for eonZerg to get in and say that Protoss can play standard macro game vs Zerg and win. No shit, when you are 1 level ahead of the Zerg in overall skill. Otherwise, a significant early or mid game advantage, created by such brilliant or shitty timing attacks (depending on the build orders mostly), or a Zerg blunder created by himself (like a failed hydra bust or poor ling runby attempt), is prerequisite for Protoss to win. Snow already showed that on equal skill, playing safe vs Zerg = loss, albeit narrowly. Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play. SK has solved ZvP for now tbh. Everything he did that last game was perfectly timed. Overpool to force Protoss into a set build, ling speed to ensure he stays home early. Lair to force corsairs, hydras to force cannons, mutas to deflect the zealots. All while macroing at any chance he could to get ahead. And he figured out that good sim city negates any sort of zealot pressure. I mean, this is textbook ZvP knowledge though. Nothing new here. All top Zergs know this. Soulkey was helped by cross spawn on that game. A close spawn gate expand may lead the game in another direction, but then it comes down to players' skill with that early zealots vs lings manoeuver. And like I said, P has to be higher on skill to get out ahead on that. That's what Bisu has done over the years until his mechanics became no longer superior to his peers. That said, Best could have won 4-1 this series had he not fucked up the Death Valley game (But that doesn't mean he solves PvZ or is the better player. It just means he gets the correct map win order to get out of the 7-game series on top - kind of like what Mini used to do). i dont agree this is text book, this is pretty unusual, he anticipate 4th exp and give up on perfect simcity in both 2nd and 3rd expansion (and still hold fast zeals push, this is maybe Best biggest mistake in this game, he should have committed on attacking the 2nd exp, but probably he was not aware of ealy 3rd exp at this point, Best though he had time, he didnt have), and ALL this, from Soulkey side, was only possible to what he did in the opening. Soulkey kept the secret token for the last match in my opinion. Try yourself going on early 4th exp on ladder and see where you end up....
Yeah, no I mean textbook in general PvZ. That game Soulkey got slightly ahead with the opening and spawn location, then he kept getting ahead by being greedy bit by bit, here and there, while Best kept playing a middle of the road, safety first build, that got him nowhere:
- Soulkey got to drone up, got Lair, Den and 5 Hatches without any zealot moving out on the map
- He also got away with a Spire at 9th minute, because P saw the Lair, built 3 Sairs, then realized Z got Hydras already, and stopped building Sairs. So 3 useless Sairs for P.
- He forced Best into 6 or 7 cannons thanks to the trick above, but never attacked them. That's 1000 minerals down the drain that never got any value back before P typed gg.
If Best had committed to the push you said, he would have lost all the zealots anyway. It was too late at that point to even up the game just by brute force for P. Against that type of build from Z, P need some blind counter. A Sair mass Speedlot+1 push much earlier for example, but I have no doubt Soulkey could have adapted his build accordingly to not lose, and then take the game to late where he's favored again.
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Gutted for Best. He played outstandingly but just not enough.
Not enough great things to say about SoulKey. His decision making in game, under pressure is just outstanding. Always seems to make the right move at the right time.
Such a great ASL. Really hope Flash comes back for the next one. We need a Flash vs Soulkey series.
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Both of them on stream rn with their universities lol. Gotta collect the post game balloons. Soulkey already got like $15k (not all for him tho, probably).
I don't think Best is too upset. He already overachieved this season and got rid of the choker tag (sort of), and no one should be expected to beat Soulkey anyway. In fact both him and Snow and their fans seem to be content that they took Soulkey to game 7.
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He got tushined a second time
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*sigh*
What a shame.. what a damn shame.
GGs, anyway.
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Sad ending, but still - one of the best ASL tournaments ever. Somewhere in the Top 3 I think. Very entertaining stuff.
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Bisutopia19366 Posts
Fantastic finals and tournament. Thank you players and organizers! Soulkey is just incredible. Great games Best!
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On May 25 2025 20:54 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Sad ending, but still - one of the best ASL tournaments ever. Somewhere in the Top 3 I think. Very entertaining stuff.
(1) flash v effort
(2) mini v rush
(3) this
is my choice. tho i only pick this asl finals since its probably the best final of SK 4 peat series
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this was the best ASL season for me. Very high amount of quality games, and an actual top 4 consisting of the 4 best performing players at this monent in time. all 3 sets going to game 7. I will say Light vs Best and Soulkey vs SnOw were better than the finals. SnOw vs Soulkey specifically being the best set of all time.
Soulkey vs SnOw had a quality of play that was legitimately the peak of remastered era starcraft.
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Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players.
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SK's mental is unfuckingreal dude. This man just doesn't falter. Incredible stuff to see.
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a lot closer than expected tbh
glad SK got punished for doing dumb shit a few times, but also glad that he stopped doing dumb shit in the last two games when it mattered
imo the death valley game is worth an in-depth discussion because there were a lot of game changing decisions in just a few minutes. in the end Best made mistakes which lost him the game... really no pylon at second ramp? those 7 zealots in the zerg main just sitting and doing nothing? not even checking whether SK took his other front expo? whyyyyyyyy
the game on radeon was a great showcase of mid-game protoss strength. things seemed to go very well for SK - the no-stargate 3-gate cheese did nothing; and a few moments later Best was turtling up on 8 (!!) cannons at 8 minutes just to be safe vs muta, on only 3 gateways ?? while SK was just shitting out drones from 5 hatch...
BUT all of protoss' gas went into a one big goon/temp army and because SK got cocky and took an early 4th, goon/temp can just crush hydra/lurk if Zerg is forced to attack into Protoss. very educational game
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EPT
