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[ASL19] Grand Finals - Page 31

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
Post a Reply
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Recommended Games
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1?

No (24)
 
96%

Yes (1)
 
4%

If you have time (0)
 
0%

25 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time


+ Show Spoiler [Game 2] +
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 2?

If you have time (9)
 
50%

Yes (6)
 
33%

No (3)
 
17%

18 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 2?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time


+ Show Spoiler [Game 3] +
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 3?

Yes (15)
 
79%

No (4)
 
21%

If you have time (0)
 
0%

19 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 3?

(Vote): Yes
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(Vote): If you have time


+ Show Spoiler [Game 4] +
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 4?

Yes (25)
 
96%

If you have time (1)
 
4%

No (0)
 
0%

26 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 4?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time


+ Show Spoiler [Game 5] +
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 5?

Yes (32)
 
97%

If you have time (1)
 
3%

No (0)
 
0%

33 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 5?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time


+ Show Spoiler [Game 6] +
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 6?

Yes (27)
 
93%

No (1)
 
3%

If you have time (1)
 
3%

29 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 6?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time


+ Show Spoiler [Game 7] +
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 7?

No (17)
 
52%

Yes (9)
 
27%

If you have time (7)
 
21%

33 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 7?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time


Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States905 Posts
May 25 2025 15:02 GMT
#601
On May 25 2025 22:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players.


Yeah man that 3rd will be easy. Forget the fact that most games end to an attack into a narrow choke despite the maximum cannons allowed being thrown down.
I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2585 Posts
May 25 2025 15:32 GMT
#602
As an SK fan, I was torn up about who to support. Now that the dust has settled, I wish best had lost the tournament, but won my heart.

My impression of Best's PvZ has did a 180. Esp after game 5.
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2235 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-05-25 18:12:02
May 25 2025 18:05 GMT
#603
no surprises... not even fun to watch starcraft pvz finals... is like barcelona vs leicester or some shit, u just know the fucking result before hand.

SK is #1 but pvz is bullshit since 2003...
every PvZ finals that happens just makes bigger the figure of KIM TAEK GOD
StarCraft & Audax Italiano
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10106 Posts
May 25 2025 18:32 GMT
#604
I thought the Deja Vu game was masterfully played by Best even after he threw a bit and Soulkey got back into the game with wonderful hydra splitting. That was an intense chess match from both players.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States892 Posts
May 25 2025 18:53 GMT
#605
On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:


Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play by both sides.



Second to last game BeSt was behind in supply after muta harassment, took a third when SK got his fourth and started hive. He was already far behind and he was very much still in it.

If the game was equal SK should have been behind in supply because zealots cost 2 supply and hydra only 1, and lurkers being much more expensive than dragoons
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7222 Posts
May 25 2025 20:16 GMT
#606
Soulkey had to win 4 games with his tournament on the line being down 2-3 against both Snow and Best. If any of those 4 games go the other way it's a protoss champion. Awesome run beating Light, Rush, Snow, Best.
日本語が分かりますか
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19219 Posts
May 25 2025 20:25 GMT
#607
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4114 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-05-25 20:55:06
May 25 2025 20:49 GMT
#608
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.


Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually?

Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know.

Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
bochs
Profile Joined February 2022
United States103 Posts
May 25 2025 21:23 GMT
#609
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.

As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season?
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2598 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-05-25 21:28:09
May 25 2025 21:26 GMT
#610
On May 26 2025 05:49 M2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.


Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually?

Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know.

Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport

This is the right answer.

Only foreigners care about goat and bonjwa. Korean don't.

Best we can give him is best player of Afreeca era, with an asterisk (because Flash is missing). Any attempt to draw comparison with Kespa is silly.

On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote:
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.

As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season?

How about Soulkey picking Protoss then?

He's been playing A LOT of ladder games as offraces.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1522 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-05-25 22:34:01
May 25 2025 22:33 GMT
#611
On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote:
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.

As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season?


Something different? Bro, Flash is just gonna go mech build and it will be GG. No thanks, better he stays away and let us believe that SK is the best.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
LpTraxamillion
Profile Joined October 2020
258 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-05-25 22:54:03
May 25 2025 22:50 GMT
#612
On May 26 2025 05:49 M2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.


Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually?

Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know.

Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport


The top players still play the game for 4-8 hours per day nearly every day and have for 20 years. The ones who didn't blow out their wrists or burn out for the most part have just gotten better over time (there are exceptions like arguably jd and bisu). Just watch the replays from kespa versus now. The game is at the highest level it has ever been.

Even stats like apm and eapm are higher than they have ever been.

Soulkey wipes the floor with anyone from their kespa prime, including flash
bochs
Profile Joined February 2022
United States103 Posts
May 25 2025 23:06 GMT
#613
On May 26 2025 07:33 iFU.pauline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote:
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.

As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season?


Something different? Bro, Flash is just gonna go mech build and it will be GG. No thanks, better he stays away and let us believe that SK is the best.


Yeah I'm so curious how SK is going to counter Flash's 14cc mech build. I have seen no success from any Zerg so far, including SK.

Of course 9d is instant gg for Terran, but you can't 9d every game, so still need a more sustainable strategy.
LpTraxamillion
Profile Joined October 2020
258 Posts
May 26 2025 00:17 GMT
#614
Compare ever OSL finals 2008 julyzerg vs best

I can forgive the the suboptimal strategy and lack of timings because the game was less evolved back then, but even the control was substantially worse. Best was even worse with corsairs back then by a considerable margin, units were hanging everywhere on both sides, storms were instantly stacking on top of each other every engagement.

Ultras lategame vs P rather than defiler was a choice, but I guess julyzerg was so ahead it didn't even matter.

Best's play in this 2025 final was infinitely cleaner than his play in 2008 and in general he plays so much better these days, especially his storm control
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
May 26 2025 01:06 GMT
#615
Best definitely played his heart out and I'm sure has his regrets, but overall it was still really impressive and he brought us some awesome games. All the love for him, and even though he ultimately lost, he won over a huge portion of the crowd with his story.
boomer hands
Simplistik
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
1998 Posts
May 26 2025 01:41 GMT
#616
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.

I guess for team leagues we can look at KCM and Major Proleague and he's very good in both...
Dear BW Gods, I know it's not autumn (in the Northern hemisphere), but please have mercy on Protoss.
Simplistik
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
1998 Posts
May 26 2025 01:55 GMT
#617
Out of curiosity, I had a little look at PvZ finals across the top tournaments

Protoss wins:
OSL: GARIMTO vs Skelton
MSL: Bisu vs Savior
SSL: Bisu vs herO
KSL/ASL: -

Zerg wins:
OSL: July vs Reach, Jaedong vs Stork, July vs Best
MSL: Savior vs Reach, Savior vs nal_ra, Jaedong vs Kal, Luxury vs Jangbi
SSL: (Terror vs Eagle, Force vs Eagle), herO vs Bisu
ASL: Effort vs Bisu, Larva vs Mini, SK vs Mini, SK vs Best

Honestly, whatever the reason, Protoss seems to be up against it, and Bisu really is special.
Dear BW Gods, I know it's not autumn (in the Northern hemisphere), but please have mercy on Protoss.
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
China5093 Posts
May 26 2025 02:41 GMT
#618
Best played well, better than I dared to hope, but Soulkey has just found the answer to everything, especially Games 6 and 7, he just sat back and played a macro style then cranked it up when Best tried to take a third. Game 7 even with that maelstrom, even with all those storms in that narrow pathway, Soulkey still punched through and denied the third. Nothing to be said, just out played.

Better luck next time Best.
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
Moopower
Profile Joined May 2017
128 Posts
May 26 2025 03:03 GMT
#619
They need to make hydra upgrades take longer so hydras don't dominate so much in early game. Protoss has to sacrifice probes and eco just to stay alive while zerg even if they committed to army earlier, can just sit back and drone up while cannons become less useful since they are static. Every toolbox zerg has is just infinitely more flexible than protoss's arsenal. Corsairs only good against air while mutalisk can force protoss to waste gas on corsairs, is still good sniping hts and stray zealots. Goons only good in the context of overwhelming numbers or with ground support. Hydra and lings are good ALL the time. At least make maelstrom 75 energy and hydra upgrade timing a bit slower so protoss can grow their econ without being bullied by hydras kiting their cannons and zealots easily forcing a lose lose scenario where protoss either loses outright or stays economically even with zerg if they survive. There's no downside to 3 hatch hydra openings. The only reason why SK lost that one game is because SK was overly aggressive and didn't plan on continuing with the long game.
Highways
Profile Joined July 2005
Australia6103 Posts
May 26 2025 03:03 GMT
#620
Game 6 and 7 shows that Protoss cannot match Zerg in macro game.

Best was powering for so long on 2 base and mass gateway, and couldn't even hold his third base against a Zerg who was massing drones with 4 base and going quick hive.
#1 Terran hater
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