|
Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1?No (25) 93% Yes (1) 4% If you have time (1) 4% 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 2?If you have time (12) 57% Yes (6) 29% No (3) 14% 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 3?Yes (18) 78% No (4) 17% If you have time (1) 4% 23 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 4?Yes (28) 93% If you have time (2) 7% No (0) 0% 30 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 5?Yes (35) 97% If you have time (1) 3% No (0) 0% 36 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 6?Yes (30) 94% No (1) 3% If you have time (1) 3% 32 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 7?No (17) 46% Yes (10) 27% If you have time (10) 27% 37 total votes Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs BeSt Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
|
On May 25 2025 22:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
Well the best player won, but protoss meta must change really, they have to get that third earlier coze this 2 bases 2 forges all in ape shit is really boring to watch and has shown its limit, time to evolv to homo-sapien protoss players.
Yeah man that 3rd will be easy. Forget the fact that most games end to an attack into a narrow choke despite the maximum cannons allowed being thrown down. 
|
As an SK fan, I was torn up about who to support. Now that the dust has settled, I wish best had lost the tournament, but won my heart.
My impression of Best's PvZ has did a 180. Esp after game 5.
|
no surprises... not even fun to watch starcraft pvz finals... is like barcelona vs leicester or some shit, u just know the fucking result before hand.
SK is #1 but pvz is bullshit since 2003...
every PvZ finals that happens just makes bigger the figure of KIM TAEK GOD
|
United States10480 Posts
I thought the Deja Vu game was masterfully played by Best even after he threw a bit and Soulkey got back into the game with wonderful hydra splitting. That was an intense chess match from both players.
|
On May 25 2025 17:49 TMNT wrote:
Best is less skilled than Soulkey, so he pulled off some wins today doing wacky builds plus Soulkey giving it to him by being overly aggressive himself. But we see how hopeless Best was on the last two games with conservative play by both sides.
Second to last game BeSt was behind in supply after muta harassment, took a third when SK got his fourth and started hive. He was already far behind and he was very much still in it.
If the game was equal SK should have been behind in supply because zealots cost 2 supply and hydra only 1, and lurkers being much more expensive than dragoons
|
Soulkey had to win 4 games with his tournament on the line being down 2-3 against both Snow and Best. If any of those 4 games go the other way it's a protoss champion. Awesome run beating Light, Rush, Snow, Best.
|
Bisutopia19366 Posts
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.
|
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.
Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually?
Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know.
Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport
|
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.
As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season?
|
On May 26 2025 05:49 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records. Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually? Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know. Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport
This is the right answer.
Only foreigners care about goat and bonjwa. Korean don't.
Best we can give him is best player of Afreeca era, with an asterisk (because Flash is missing). Any attempt to draw comparison with Kespa is silly.
On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote:
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.
As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season?
How about Soulkey picking Protoss then?
He's been playing A LOT of ladder games as offraces.
|
On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote:
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.
As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season?
Something different? Bro, Flash is just gonna go mech build and it will be GG. No thanks, better he stays away and let us believe that SK is the best.
|
On May 26 2025 05:49 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records. Can anyone be part of the general GOAT discussion by winning in the post KESPA era? How can we compare someone who became a GOAT in an era with professional teams, coaches, teammates, preparation camps, salaries, full time job schedules, constant new players incoming with several big and mid tournaments per year, with proleagues etc vs someone who is beating several full or half time streamers, who practice on their own time as they see fit, half of them with wrists surgeries and no incentives for new blood to come and challenge? By just playing 2 tournaments annually? Soulkey might be the best player ever, but he doesnt have the environment to really prove it, so will never know. Broodwar was a professional e-sport back then, now its an amateur e-sport
The top players still play the game for 4-8 hours per day nearly every day and have for 20 years. The ones who didn't blow out their wrists or burn out for the most part have just gotten better over time (there are exceptions like arguably jd and bisu). Just watch the replays from kespa versus now. The game is at the highest level it has ever been.
Even stats like apm and eapm are higher than they have ever been.
Soulkey wipes the floor with anyone from their kespa prime, including flash
|
On May 26 2025 07:33 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2025 06:23 bochs wrote:
Is Flash going to show up in ASL 20? Even as a fan of SK, I'd like to see something different the next season.
As someone mentioned, how about picking a Protoss-favored map the next season? Something different? Bro, Flash is just gonna go mech build and it will be GG. No thanks, better he stays away and let us believe that SK is the best.
Yeah I'm so curious how SK is going to counter Flash's 14cc mech build. I have seen no success from any Zerg so far, including SK.
Of course 9d is instant gg for Terran, but you can't 9d every game, so still need a more sustainable strategy.
|
Compare ever OSL finals 2008 julyzerg vs best
I can forgive the the suboptimal strategy and lack of timings because the game was less evolved back then, but even the control was substantially worse. Best was even worse with corsairs back then by a considerable margin, units were hanging everywhere on both sides, storms were instantly stacking on top of each other every engagement.
Ultras lategame vs P rather than defiler was a choice, but I guess julyzerg was so ahead it didn't even matter.
Best's play in this 2025 final was infinitely cleaner than his play in 2008 and in general he plays so much better these days, especially his storm control
|
Best definitely played his heart out and I'm sure has his regrets, but overall it was still really impressive and he brought us some awesome games. All the love for him, and even though he ultimately lost, he won over a huge portion of the crowd with his story.
|
On May 26 2025 05:25 BisuDagger wrote:
How many more wins does SK need to become part of the general GOAT discussion? Does he touch top 5/10 all time yet? SK lacks a team league presence that helps many other’s records.
I guess for team leagues we can look at KCM and Major Proleague and he's very good in both...
|
Out of curiosity, I had a little look at PvZ finals across the top tournaments
Protoss wins:
OSL: GARIMTO vs Skelton
MSL: Bisu vs Savior
SSL: Bisu vs herO
KSL/ASL: -
Zerg wins:
OSL: July vs Reach, Jaedong vs Stork, July vs Best
MSL: Savior vs Reach, Savior vs nal_ra, Jaedong vs Kal, Luxury vs Jangbi
SSL: (Terror vs Eagle, Force vs Eagle), herO vs Bisu
ASL: Effort vs Bisu, Larva vs Mini, SK vs Mini, SK vs Best
Honestly, whatever the reason, Protoss seems to be up against it, and Bisu really is special.
|
Best played well, better than I dared to hope, but Soulkey has just found the answer to everything, especially Games 6 and 7, he just sat back and played a macro style then cranked it up when Best tried to take a third. Game 7 even with that maelstrom, even with all those storms in that narrow pathway, Soulkey still punched through and denied the third. Nothing to be said, just out played.
Better luck next time Best.
|
They need to make hydra upgrades take longer so hydras don't dominate so much in early game. Protoss has to sacrifice probes and eco just to stay alive while zerg even if they committed to army earlier, can just sit back and drone up while cannons become less useful since they are static. Every toolbox zerg has is just infinitely more flexible than protoss's arsenal. Corsairs only good against air while mutalisk can force protoss to waste gas on corsairs, is still good sniping hts and stray zealots. Goons only good in the context of overwhelming numbers or with ground support. Hydra and lings are good ALL the time. At least make maelstrom 75 energy and hydra upgrade timing a bit slower so protoss can grow their econ without being bullied by hydras kiting their cannons and zealots easily forcing a lose lose scenario where protoss either loses outright or stays economically even with zerg if they survive. There's no downside to 3 hatch hydra openings. The only reason why SK lost that one game is because SK was overly aggressive and didn't plan on continuing with the long game.
|
Game 6 and 7 shows that Protoss cannot match Zerg in macro game.
Best was powering for so long on 2 base and mass gateway, and couldn't even hold his third base against a Zerg who was massing drones with 4 base and going quick hive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
