[SSL Autumn] Ro4 Day 1

On October 21 2024 19:46 Kaal wrote:
mythic rare 3 gate build

On October 21 2024 20:09 Rainalcar wrote:
PvZ imbalance, and P being so visibly the weakest race historically, is making me consider tempering the time I spend following BW scene. It's becoming too repetitive, too tiresome, and worst of all, too predictable.

On October 21 2024 20:09 Rainalcar wrote:
PvZ imbalance, and P being so visibly the weakest race historically, is making me consider tempering the time I spend following BW scene. It's becoming too repetitive, too tiresome, and worst of all, too predictable.

On October 21 2024 20:11 Peeano wrote:
Protoss needs to keep 3-4 sairs alive, a dark archon with maelstrom or at least a body guard archon for the HTs. Mutas simply don't care about goon shots when sniping HTs. Storm can also easily be dodged or hit your own units.

On October 21 2024 20:10 TMNT wrote:
I didn't watch the opening to game 3. How did we end up with Zerg on 4 bases while Protoss having a bunch of Zealots and unused Cannons? A ling run by that killed probes at the beginning or something?

On October 21 2024 20:10 TMNT wrote:
I didn't watch the opening to game 3. How did we end up with Zerg on 4 bases while Protoss having a bunch of Zealots and unused Cannons? A ling run by that killed probes at the beginning or something?

On October 21 2024 20:12 Simplistik wrote:

At this stage of the game, the only way the balance changes is via the maps.

On October 21 2024 20:14 Simplistik wrote:

No, 8 lings preventing scouting, fast hydras to contain, lots of cannons, forge sniped before upgrade, then Snow tries a speed zealot attack, but they mostly die to hydras. And then SK can comfortably power.

On October 21 2024 20:13 TMNT wrote:

The HT snipe was just icing on the cake. At that point they were on equal supply and 2 to 4 bases. Game was already lost. The question is how did it go to that state.

On October 21 2024 20:32 Gorsameth wrote:
did Snow play bad, or was it just SK playing so good it looked like Snow was bad.

On October 21 2024 20:43 Simplistik wrote:
Well, this ASL hasn't really delivered so far, has it?
A few good games, but mostly meh.

On October 21 2024 20:42 Souden wrote:
Poor Snow he just can't do well in offline tournaments.. Must have been really nervous, his control was way off.

On October 21 2024 20:51 G5 wrote:
When I watch PvZ at the highest level, like SSL. It looks so fucking impossible to have any consistency in winning. I just see the top Protoss' take these maaaaaaassive risks over and over because it seems like they have just accepted that is their best chance against top-tier Zergs. Trying to just play straight up is just a fools errand. Mini seems to be the guy whom has found the most success in ASL's vs Z in the last 5+ years and if you really watch his builds, he takes more gambles than anyone. It's wild what this matchup has devolved into at the top of the scene over the past few years.

On October 21 2024 20:54 Rainalcar wrote:


Exactly this. It's impossible to dominate PvZ no matter who you are.

On October 21 2024 20:42 Souden wrote:
Poor Snow he just can't do well in offline tournaments.. Must have been really nervous, his control was way off.

On October 21 2024 20:57 Peeano wrote:
First match this season I could make time for to watch live. I'll still be a Snow fan, but next time I'll skip a Snow PvZ series.

Does Sharp even have any good buddies to practice TvZ with? Same for Rain PvZ?
Seems like another gold for Soulkey.

On October 21 2024 20:54 Rainalcar wrote:


Exactly this. It's impossible to dominate PvZ no matter who you are. I will just add that P gambles are actually DEFENSIVE - it's just to stay alive and gain some advantage. P virtually has no offensive gambles v Z - how often do you see 2 gate or proxy cannons giving easy wins? 2 gate is almost an auto loss these days, proxy cannon is super situational. On the other hand, Z can move super easily from pressure that easily wins games to a normal mid game sooo often.

On October 21 2024 19:54 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I want snow to apologize to simplistik and me for the hours of work we put in for him.

On October 22 2024 01:30 FlaShFTW wrote:

Snow is 1-5 lifetime against Zergs in the bracket stage, typically only managing to beat lower tier Zergs. His PvZ is indeed just not very good, but you can't tell me looking at this performance that the matchup is remotely balanced at the pro level lol.

Snow is fine offline. He's made back to back semifinals. I didn't know making semifinals in the top tournament in the world 2 years in a row, losing in your worst matchup both times against the best player in the world made you a choker. Who's the delusional one right now?

On October 21 2024 21:19 cheesehuehue wrote:
People complaining about ZvP imbalance are delusional.

1. First of all, it's only Soulkey "dominating" the matchup. If the matchup were truly imbalance, the other Zergs would be "dominating", too.
2. I lied. Actually, Soulkey is not dominating the matchup. Before today's match, Snow had a 67% win rate (8W/4L) against Soulkey since August 1st. And btw, Snow's win rate against Hero is 69% (9W/4L), 83% (5W/1L) against action, 48% against Jaedong (15W/16L), and 62.5% against Queen (5W/3L).
3. Snow just doesn't perform well offline. This has been known for a long time, why are people ignoring it?

On October 22 2024 03:09 Jaeyun wrote:
1. ZvP is and has always been slightly favored towards Zerg. Soulkey is pushing the precise buttons on the specific imbalances in the matchup harder than anyone else (lack of P scouting, early lings & hydras)
2. Soulkey is playing out of his mind. Championship's confidence matters a lot. He is dominating not only in his play but also strategically in his prep and BO selection
3. Snow was expected to lose but not this badly. He played poorly (reaction times on zealots vs. hydra busts were slow in nearly all games). He also made mechanical blunders in RO16 despite still winning. Perhaps being a new father or something else in his personal life has something to do with it.

All three are simultaneously true.

On October 22 2024 02:54 TMNT wrote:

The problem with this post is you called people delusional about ZvP imbalance but your 3 points below didn't support that argument.

The notion that ZvP favors Zerg comes from (a) watching the gameplay, and is backed up by (b) the historical stats of the matchup. For 20 years! Your counter argument is based on the results of a handful of games of Snow from... August. He could be 100% against Zerg from August and your logic is still wrong.

Also, for a guy who once falsely lectured me about cherry picking, look what you just did here: cherry picking. Why from August? Because if you go back just 1 month the stats no longer fit your agenda (lol).

Also, for a guy who once falsely lectured me about cherry picking, look what you just did here: cherry picking. Why from August? Because if you go back just 1 month the stats no longer fit your agenda (lol).

On October 21 2024 19:38 Rainalcar wrote:
Even if Snow didn't cancel cannons I give him 10% of winning, Z was already par in supply. It's a typical pvz loss due to protoss impossibility to scout. I repeat again, it is an imbalanced matchup.

On October 22 2024 03:23 King Fog wrote:
PvZ needs to revolutionized, unlearn all that we know and go back to the drawing board. Maybe aggressive 1base play to force them out of their comfort zone and drag them into the mid-game under your own conditions. I don't know, I don't even play toss, but sitting and making 10 cannons just to maybe not autolose to hydra bust again and again doesnt seem right.

On October 22 2024 03:48 cheesehuehue wrote:


And apparently, you still don't understand what cherry picking is.

First of all, the player's performance fluctuate over time. The "meta" and the map pool also change over time. Everyone knows that, including you. Snow's performance right now is not the same as in January, for instance, for whatever reason. Soulkey had a period where he destroyed every Terran between May and July, but since August, Light mopped the floor with him online, and he has been pretty much even with Royal. Pretending you don't know that setting a time frame is important only makes you a disservice, because it proves you don't really care about facts , you simply want to argue.You talk about historical data as if that supported your point. "Historical" data of KSL1-4 and ASL1-16 shows that the Z winrate in PvZ is close to 50% (51.5%, source: https://jackyvso.github.io/Starcraft/#Matchups). And yes, my previous post focused on Snow because it was his loss what prompted so many people to complain about the supposed matchup imbalance, and the same happened when he lost in ASL17.


I'm disappointed to see that one lecture was not enough. So here is another one: Setting a time frame is part of defining a population about which you want to make generalizations.


And to add, what we are seeing is simply the same that happened with Flash. When one player performs much better than the rest, everyone complains about race imbalance. *Right now*, without Soulkey, zerg would look like the weakest race by far.

On October 22 2024 22:20 WGT-Baal wrote:

Now for kick back and dominator I agree those are lazy remakes of old maps. I d rather have more new stuff like Minstrel, for all its faults.

On October 22 2024 21:56 Nirli wrote:
I'll say this - saying that SK won purely due to hydra busts is an extreme oversimplification of his play. In fact, his play is so nuanced that I think P needs Bisu-vs-Savior levels of imagination and execution to turn things around.

On October 22 2024 11:08 RowdierBob wrote:
Crazy that SK is now 8-1 against Light and Snow in the bracket phase. Made two S class guys look like practice partners.

On October 22 2024 12:23 ruhtraeel wrote:
Ever since that season where ggaemo knocked him out...

Death, taxes, and Snow dying to hydra busts

Snow is just not good at PvZ, he had one season where his PvZ looked way better, now he's back to being his usual self

Give me Best's PvZ any day

On October 23 2024 21:46 RowdierBob wrote:

Are there and good PvZ players atm though? Like the sort that could actually win one of these bo7s vs the elite zergs like Hero, Soma or Soulkey?

I wouldn’t back any P based on current form.

On October 22 2024 00:12 RogerChillingworth wrote:


xD A for effort.

I have personally never rlly felt the hype for SnOw. Regardless of his obvious strengths with reavers, he always seemed like a fairly predictable player with huge holes in his play.

I don't think any P could have really shown much tonight, other than Mini on a good day.

On October 24 2024 23:43 Dante08 wrote:
Think only Mini and Bisu (if he's on form) can stand a chance against Soulkey. Mini actually did very against him 2 seasons ago, the score was 4-1 but most of the games were really close.