HerO beat Barracks and Snow beat Ample. Motive lost to Action in group H semi so will be either BTS or Stork vs Action in Final.
Best > Ruin - A SSak > Rain - B Shine > JyJ - C Mind > Zhanhun - D Hero > Barracks - E Snow > Ample - F (Free lost to ddasik in first round. Bad seeding because DDasik honestly should have been seeded differently because he's way better than his seeding gave him credit for.)
Update: Calm is in G finals but waiting for Cave(formerly nOOB) vs Jaedong to finish their Semi. Update: Group L has a difficult bottom half. Paralzye, Scan, Beast and Sacsri. Comparatively the top half is the biggest walk in the park for light in the history of ASL with not a single note worthy name in it beside Alen and Moolso. Likewise Group J is criminally favored for Royal. It has Royal and Zelot on top side and Leta, Hm, Yabsab and GGaemo on bottom side. Update: Group K has Queen in top half and Shuttle in bottom half with Taenggu.
On February 03 2024 15:04 TMNT wrote: If anyone interested: G5 lost to 815 in first round Dewalt lost to SRich in first round Mihu lost to ggaemo in second round
On February 03 2024 15:04 TMNT wrote: If anyone interested: G5 lost to 815 in first round Dewalt lost to SRich in first round Mihu lost to ggaemo in second round
Lost is an understatement. I got curb stomped lol.
Dewalt took a game off his guy at least.
I've hit SSak on ladder and he's fking crazy good. Definitely deserves to be in ASL but I'm sad Rain didn't qualify. I hope he gets in tomorrow.
To me, Shine over JyJ and beast over Light is the wildest
So who are we missing? Jyj, Light, maybe Ample, Barracks and Leta for terran Queen and guys like ggaemo, Killer and Calm for zerg Bisu, Rain and then perhaps Ruin, Free and Stork for protoss
sSak in his current form is absolutely capable of beating Rain who isn't practicing that much - not even an upset, imo. Very happy for him, one of the most entertaining terrans to watch.
I'd rather not see players, that used to be good, but don't care enough anymore qualify for ASL. All they do is potentially deny a new face some stage experience.
On February 03 2024 18:41 Peeano wrote: I'd rather not see players, that used to be good, but don't care enough anymore qualify for ASL. All they do is potentially deny a new face some stage experience.
Any word on Scan?
Apparently lost to Paralyze in quarter-finals of group L
From what I've seen so far: Group 1 = Hyuk, YSC, Tyson and Cave(nOOB), iffy and MC. (taenggu in finals from ACS win) Group 2 = Light top side, Ruin and Scan bottom side. Light is favored but both Scan and Ruin stand a chance here. It is possible Light might not qualify which will be maybe the biggest qualifiers upset ever?
One thing I always find annoying with ASL qualifiers is the seeding/bracket system is absolute dogshit. Think it's just one guy (910) single-handedly deciding who plays whom?
Look at group 1: 1st seed YSC, 2nd seed Hyuk, 3rd seed MC, 4th seed Noob - none of them are ASL regulars.
And then in group 5 you have both Stork and Barracks. Are you telling me that these two can't be ahead of the above 4 players in a seeding system, whatever the way you calculate their coefficient (if there exists one).
Edit: my bad, seems like they are in different groups, Hero's stream got it wrong at the beginning. And group 1 seems like it was designed so that the ACS winnner Taenggu has a chance (and he took it!)
On February 04 2024 09:16 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: day two begins!
From what I've seen so far: Group 1 = Hyuk, YSC, Tyson and Cave(nOOB), iffy and MC. (taenggu in finals from ACS win) Group 2 = Light top side, Ruin and Scan bottom side. Light is favored but both Scan and Ruin stand a chance here. It is possible Light might not qualify which will be maybe the biggest qualifiers upset ever?
Never mind Ruin lol. Got beaten by xuanxuan. Light will walk this group.
On February 04 2024 09:16 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: day two begins!
From what I've seen so far: Group 1 = Hyuk, YSC, Tyson and Cave(nOOB), iffy and MC. (taenggu in finals from ACS win) Group 2 = Light top side, Ruin and Scan bottom side. Light is favored but both Scan and Ruin stand a chance here. It is possible Light might not qualify which will be maybe the biggest qualifiers upset ever?
Never mind Ruin lol. Got beaten by xuanxuan. Light will walk this group.
Oh my god, Queen was eliminated by an unknown Terran player (who was eliminated later anyway). The guy is only going downhill since his ASL titles. Has never made top 4 since, was out of Ro24 last season and now out of ASL totally.
Apparently he was cheesed by a BBS in the 3rd game and a one-base 2 Rax all in in the 2nd game. Dirty Terran.
On February 04 2024 16:41 Giovanni8 wrote: Apparently Bisu playing his final match now. Its pvp.
He actually played it at some hours ago, is now streaming (and enjoying, he succesfully DT rushed Paralyze twice in a row - one of the few wins that you don't have to break a sweat lol).
Other notable ones who qualified: Taenggu (amateur, ladder legend, ACS winner), beating YSC 2-0 in the playoff match. Light, beating Scan 2-0. TY, beating Calm 2-1 (poor Calm, he got to almost every final match in every qualifier only to lose them all 1-2) Killer, beating Spire 2-0 Stork, beating Motive 2-0 ( Free is in this group too and lost to Motive in the semi) Barracks, beating Miso 2-0 JYJ, beating Force 2-0 Speed (aka Sexy), beating an unknown player who won the bracket side in which Queen was eliminated
The rest are in play: Leta vs Zelot Rain vs Hyun Sea vs either Horang2 and Ddasik (once again, the 12th group in day 2 includes Sea, Horang2 and Guemchi so they can have one of the big variety streamers in ASL, but Ddasik has the potential to kill all of them lol)
On February 04 2024 16:09 TMNT wrote: Oh my god, Queen was eliminated by an unknown Terran player (who was eliminated later anyway). The guy is only going downhill since his ASL titles. Has never made top 4 since, was out of Ro24 last season and now out of ASL totally.
Apparently he was cheesed by a BBS in the 3rd game and a one-base 2 Rax all in in the 2nd game. Dirty Terran.
Queen actually playing really well online. just got unlucky lol. Minimaxii is rain yes. Ruin lost vs xuanxuan. BCM hard carried Speed by eliminating Queen lol. I love how foreigners know speed as sexy when he used sexy for like 3 months once but used Hero and speed for a decade lol. also Jyj did not beat force. that was Cola. Force is someone else entirely. Force is the clan tag in this case.
Yeah once again Sea beat Horang2 in literally the last game of day 2 qualifier. You'd think there's some arrangement to it lol.
But it kinda shows you how big the gap between actual progamer vs amateurs. Ddasik was touted the next big thing for Zerg since his break out season, yet 2 (or 3) seasons later he still lost to LOL player and variety streamer Horang2 who kinda half ass practiced for ASL qualifier.
btw tmnt. Jyj beat cola. Force is the clan tag. also your takes are wrong. Horang2 literally spammed spon matches daily from october to mid january. He Ddasik has had mostly ladder and lower tier pros and top amateurs as his practice partners. Horang2 practiced reallllllllly hard. Same for Sea. Horang2 played like 400 ladder matches on top of that too. You are really misrepresenting how much players prepared or practiced a lot in your posts.
On February 04 2024 18:13 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: btw tmnt. Jyj beat cola. Force is the clan tag.
Oh really. Think I saw Force in his ID and vaguely remember there was a player with that name and just associated with it. Is Cola just back or has he been playing under the rada for a while? Think I saw Kwanro in one of the bracket as well.
On February 04 2024 18:13 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: btw tmnt. Jyj beat cola. Force is the clan tag.
Oh really. Think I saw Force in his ID and vaguely remember there was a player with that name and just associated with it. Is Cola just back or has he been playing under the rada for a while? Think I saw Kwanro in one of the bracket as well.
Cola has been back since around september. Levi_force and kerrigan_force are the names he largely used.
It's puzzling to me that the bottom line of players that qualify for asl for zerg and especially terran is quite deep and we get fresh (or somewhat) names somewhat regularly (dDasik, iVory, hani, scan, speed), but for protoss it's always the same six-seven names and some old pros coming and going. I don't know a lot about the amateur scene but by the look at the qualifier brackets, there were almost no low-tier fresh protosses that made it really deep.
On February 04 2024 18:47 angryground wrote: It's puzzling to me that the bottom line of players that qualify for asl for zerg and especially terran is quite deep and we get fresh (or somewhat) names somewhat regularly (dDasik, iVory, hani, scan, speed), but for protoss it's always the same six-seven names and some old pros coming and going. I don't know a lot about the amateur scene but by the look at the qualifier brackets, there were almost no low-tier fresh protosses that made it really deep.
It's harder to reach this final level as Protoss. The 6 7 pros you talk about all have something special about them talent wise: the GOAT Protoss SC1, the GOAT Protoss SC1+SC2 combined, best macro Toss, best Carrier user, best Reaver user, best early game and knockout phase player, and Shuttle. For Protoss, hard work alone is not enough.
Bit tongue in cheek but maybe there's some truth to it.
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
Toss definitely has a few talents that are on the edge of getting into their next level, but it "just isn't happening" for some reason. They have their moments but they just can't get there. Ruin and Free specifically have the potential but they fall short of progressing to the next level repeatedly. Only Brain has so far shown to have what it takes to legitimately be capable of becoming a top level protoss rivaling Snow, Mini, Bisu and Best.
On February 04 2024 19:26 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Ruin and Free specifically have the potential but they fall short of progressing to the next level repeatedly.
You can't talk about Free as if he's a next gen Protoss who is on the verge of break out though. He was literally one of the six dragons. He was at that level as a pro player. He's just semi retired now.
On February 04 2024 19:26 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Ruin and Free specifically have the potential but they fall short of progressing to the next level repeatedly.
You can't talk about Free as if he's a next gen Protoss who is on the verge of break out though. He was literally one of the six dragons. He was at that level as a pro player. He's just semi retired now.
Free is not semi retired at all, he spends a lot of time coaching because that's where he gets more money from than from spons. Does not mean he's semi-retired. Starcraft's become much more optimized and more cerebral than it was during his 6 dragons period. His peaks sometimes give the impression he might be able to keep up with the present day "6 dragons" but then he makes a string of bad choices in the next four games. Watching him you get the idea "if only he could fix that decision making of his". Watching Mini, Best, Bisu and Snow, even stork and sometimes shuttle, you see much more advanced decision making.
The way i see it the players getting the most from mechanic play are the terran players. Zerg and protoss need to do both mechanical and mindgames. But the zerg players performing the best are the one that mix the most with mindgames. For example Jaedong heavily focus on mechanic play and brute force. With the maps the scene been using for years that playstyle really dont fit him at all. For protoss Mini is capable of doing both. Bisu is super mechanic and when it all click for him you can get a master piece. But like in dominoes if some pieces start to fall his game also drop supèr hard and sometimes do you wonder what is happening that he looks so bad.
On February 04 2024 23:42 RKC wrote: Happy for TY!
What happen to Fantasy? Is he no longer active on ladder or Proleague?
fantasy was never active in proleague. he laddered from january to july, won Saudi event and moved to another project. During this time he did one stream announcement.
Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
On February 04 2024 23:42 RKC wrote: Happy for TY!
What happen to Fantasy? Is he no longer active on ladder or Proleague?
Yeah no longer active. But he was never active in Proleague. Just practiced offstream on the ladder for that Gamers8 event. After that he stopped playing, then got a job as a LOL coach (again). Then oh well...
In case anyone wonders about Flash. He's just gone off the planet for the moment.
On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
On February 04 2024 23:42 RKC wrote: Happy for TY!
What happen to Fantasy? Is he no longer active on ladder or Proleague?
Yeah no longer active. But he was never active in Proleague. Just practiced offstream on the ladder for that Gamers8 event. After that he stopped playing, then got a job as a LOL coach (again). Then oh well...
In case anyone wonders about Flash. He's just gone off the planet for the moment.
I wonder how much FlaSh being absent decided by his scandal or injury as he stated last time. And FanTa throwing away his natural talent yet again for some coaching smh...
On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
On February 04 2024 23:42 RKC wrote: Happy for TY!
What happen to Fantasy? Is he no longer active on ladder or Proleague?
Yeah no longer active. But he was never active in Proleague. Just practiced offstream on the ladder for that Gamers8 event. After that he stopped playing, then got a job as a LOL coach (again). Then oh well...
In case anyone wonders about Flash. He's just gone off the planet for the moment.
I wonder how much FlaSh being absent decided by his scandal or injury as he stated last time. And FanTa throwing away his natural talent yet again for some coaching smh...
Coaching an LCK league of Legends Pro team probably nets him more job security and money than streaming and BW competing ever will.
Lot of Terrans in this ASL, hopefully Protoss gets a boost from that (Snow reavers incoming).
Not a lot of quality Zergs that I would consider favorites to win this tournament compared to the number of quality Terran and Protoss players. Will be interesting to see what they can do.
Lack of Queen/soma/effort leaving zerg lineup looking weak, but then when I look at performance of top terrans in KCM and Proleague lately they all seem to be performing pretty poorly lately besides light and sharp (even light doing worse than usual). The top protoss players looking fire lately and the map pool seems pretty good for them.
But if the last 3 years of ASL taught me anything it's that it's totally pointless to try to make predictions haha. Very likely lots of upsets will happen in the Ro24 and Ro16. Should be fun to watch
On February 06 2024 01:36 Ideas wrote: Lack of Queen/soma/effort leaving zerg lineup looking weak, but then when I look at performance of top terrans in KCM and Proleague lately they all seem to be performing pretty poorly lately besides light and sharp (even light doing worse than usual). The top protoss players looking fire lately and the map pool seems pretty good for them.
But if the last 3 years of ASL taught me anything it's that it's totally pointless to try to make predictions haha. Very likely lots of upsets will happen in the Ro24 and Ro16. Should be fun to watch
Speaking of predictions, is the old LB season over right? Who won and do we get another one ?
On February 03 2024 15:04 TMNT wrote: If anyone interested: G5 lost to 815 in first round Dewalt lost to SRich in first round Mihu lost to ggaemo in second round
Lost is an understatement. I got curb stomped lol.
Dewalt took a game off his guy at least.
I've hit SSak on ladder and he's fking crazy good. Definitely deserves to be in ASL but I'm sad Rain didn't qualify. I hope he gets in tomorrow.
Just being able to compete there makes you a winner man, GJ.
On February 04 2024 18:47 angryground wrote: It's puzzling to me that the bottom line of players that qualify for asl for zerg and especially terran is quite deep and we get fresh (or somewhat) names somewhat regularly (dDasik, iVory, hani, scan, speed), but for protoss it's always the same six-seven names and some old pros coming and going. I don't know a lot about the amateur scene but by the look at the qualifier brackets, there were almost no low-tier fresh protosses that made it really deep.
It's harder to reach this final level as Protoss. The 6 7 pros you talk about all have something special about them talent wise: the GOAT Protoss SC1, the GOAT Protoss SC1+SC2 combined, best macro Toss, best Carrier user, best Reaver user, best early game and knockout phase player, and Shuttle. For Protoss, hard work alone is not enough.
Bit tongue in cheek but maybe there's some truth to it.
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
I've seen really good play in KCM from Ruin, YSC, Motive, and Mighty but they hardly ever qualify for the Ro24. I thought they were at least on or near on par with players like Zelot/Speed/Beast/Shuttle/Sea but I guess not (or just always get unlucky brackets) :\
Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
"even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
If rain actually practiced he'd be on par with mini in PvT but as far as I can tell he basically just plays a few games a week for K-league and that's it? Spends most if his time streaming other games. Pretty impressive that he still qualified for ASL without practicing much assuming that's the case (I could be wrong though). In comparison most of the proleauge players are streaming/playing BW for ~8 hours a day 6 days a week.
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
Not sure about JD placement there, he has step up his game a lot lately, will be interesting watching him more.
On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
It isnt random? Wow that sounds i n s a n e to me if true.
On February 06 2024 13:35 Ideas wrote: "even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
Bisu's PvT is one of the most disappointing things a Protoss fan has to deal with. And when players like Best and Stork exist, that's saying something.
He has probably the best macro out of all P players, the rate at which he eats the map and produces units is insane. He also has really good (used to be best, now has competition in Mini/Snow) early game micro. Those 2 things together let him crush mediocre terrans, and pull off an occasional win against a good Terran.
His late game planning and large scale engagements, however, have always been terrible. There's only one thing that Bisu is good at, in the matchup, long term: getting to max with arbiter really quick and 1a2a3aing into a fortified position. When executed off of very scary macro, and often from a significant early game lead, it can crush.
However, that isn't a style that works on every map, and it doesn't really work when T prepares for it well. E.g. doing it into 150 supply Terran that has a giant minefield, buildings, etc, it just doesn't work. It is how Bisu threw very large leads over and over against truly solid Terrans over the year, and is the top reason why cheering for him for starleagues has always been hard.
Every other season, Bisu tries to do something new in this matchup. But rather than making incremental changes over time, he tries to completely change to a different style within the scope of one season. When that predictably doesn't work, he goes back to good 11-12 min gateway man arbiter bust the next time around.
This time was no different. He tried to bust a very well fortified position, failed, lost the first arbiter to turrets, and despite having entire map (literally taking every base except the 4 bases open for terran), could not keep up in follow-up engagements.
Bisu's PvT may be #4 in the world in terms of ELO, but his style has always been something extra effective against weak terrans, and not reliable at all against strong terrans. And if you're trying to win a league, it is hard to dodge every single strong Terran.
I think a lot of this comes down to his Reaver control, which is not on a level of other S protosess. It is also apparent in PvP sometimes. A lot of Snow's wins are just Reavers doing the job.
On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
It isnt random? Wow that sounds i n s a n e to me if true.
What the hell!?
Its normal. you dont want more than 2 top tier contenders in a group. you want the best players to qualify by ensuring they dont eliminate each other. so gou split them up over all the groups. so most groups end up having 1 top tier. 1-2 second tier. 2-3 third tier. rest are randomly added in.
On February 07 2024 19:13 johanes wrote: I think a lot of this comes down to his Reaver control, which is not on a level of other S protosess. It is also apparent in PvP sometimes. A lot of Snow's wins are just Reavers doing the job.
Not really. Someone like Snow will almost never engage a terran's defense directly. He is completely fine with taking 15+ minutes to slowly kill tanks with pure reavers or storm, and only going for delay tactics and counter attacks with goon forces, never taking a straight up engagement.
On the other end of the spectrum, someone like Best is doing the opposite and is completely fine maxing out on 12 goons and pure zealot and busting everywhere all the time.
Bisu's gameplay, in that sense, is like Best's. Except Best knows where to attack, how to stretch the Terran thin to expose weaknesses and how to capitalize. Best also knows when he's beat and needs to transition from bust attempts to counter-attack plays or careers & so on.
Bisu has similar style, same or even better macro but his attacks are just blind and uninspired. He's not planning three engagements ahead to make that style work against people who don't crumble to pure numbers.
Bisu's PvT is equivalent of a terran who's running hot and having great TvZ on pure mechanics and 0 strategic play. But the matchup and modern maps are less suited for that kind of approach.
The playbook being 10 years or more outdated doesn't help much either. He's best at this style, but it is a very old style, everyone else moved on. Bisu innovated a ton in PvZ over the last 10 years, but his PvT has been stagnant. Brief forays into trying new things with limited success into reverting to same old stuff.
The reason it works at all is because his mechanics are crazy strong. Ssak was able to capitalize and push fast enough to secure the win, which isn't what every terran pro could do in that situation, so he still wins a lot. But it is also what makes Bisu's PvT so disappointing. If the man had good ideas on engagements and how and when to use his army, he would be unstoppable in the matchup. And this problem remained like this for a damn decade.
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
"even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
If rain actually practiced he'd be on par with mini in PvT but as far as I can tell he basically just plays a few games a week for K-league and that's it? Spends most if his time streaming other games. Pretty impressive that he still qualified for ASL without practicing much assuming that's the case (I could be wrong though). In comparison most of the proleauge players are streaming/playing BW for ~8 hours a day 6 days a week.
I'd say even Stork's PvT is better than Bisu's
Yes, Rain relies on pure talent. However, it's pretty clear that his talent only extends to 1.5 matchups (PvP and a bit of PvZ), which makes it seem like he's not going to win another ASL anytime soon (I'd still think he would lose to Effort, Soulkey, Hero and Soma as well). Bisu got average at PvT by just relying on mechanics, but Rain doesn't have the mechanics to do this, so he just ends up even worse.
They're pretty similar players in the sense that neither are that good at PvT, with Bisu being slightly better Bisu is above average in PvP and PvZ, while Rain is decent at PvZ (worse than Bisu) and better at PvP
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
Not sure about JD placement there, he has step up his game a lot lately, will be interesting watching him more.
I think like eonzerg said, unless JD really changes his playstyle, I don't think he's going to go very far
He succeeded in the KESPA era because he is decisive and aggressive, but nowadays, the game changes on a dime if you lose an additional 1-2 units, and he's just not good at adapting and playing the macro game.
On February 06 2024 10:29 ruhtraeel wrote: Zero's really gone downhill ever since getting married and having a kid (understandably so). He's probably tied for 6th best Zerg now, behind Soulkey, Hero, Effort, Soma and Action, probably being tied with JD. He hasn't done well in the daily proleagues in ages, and not qualifying is probably the lowest point he's been
I'm not surprised by Rain getting 0-2'ed by sSak. I feel like he's constantly overrated overall, because of the fact that his PvT is pretty bad, probably even worse than Bisu's. His ASL run will probably end if he encounters any top 5 Terran, but if he goes only against Ps and Zs, he has a shot to make it far
"even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
If rain actually practiced he'd be on par with mini in PvT but as far as I can tell he basically just plays a few games a week for K-league and that's it? Spends most if his time streaming other games. Pretty impressive that he still qualified for ASL without practicing much assuming that's the case (I could be wrong though). In comparison most of the proleauge players are streaming/playing BW for ~8 hours a day 6 days a week.
Dude's been back playing League for 4 straight days after he qualified lol.
On February 06 2024 13:35 Ideas wrote: "even worse than bisu" dude Bisu has #4 Best PvT in the world lol
Bisu's PvT is one of the most disappointing things a Protoss fan has to deal with. And when players like Best and Stork exist, that's saying something.
He has probably the best macro out of all P players, the rate at which he eats the map and produces units is insane. He also has really good (used to be best, now has competition in Mini/Snow) early game micro. Those 2 things together let him crush mediocre terrans, and pull off an occasional win against a good Terran.
His late game planning and large scale engagements, however, have always been terrible. There's only one thing that Bisu is good at, in the matchup, long term: getting to max with arbiter really quick and 1a2a3aing into a fortified position. When executed off of very scary macro, and often from a significant early game lead, it can crush.
However, that isn't a style that works on every map, and it doesn't really work when T prepares for it well. E.g. doing it into 150 supply Terran that has a giant minefield, buildings, etc, it just doesn't work. It is how Bisu threw very large leads over and over against truly solid Terrans over the year, and is the top reason why cheering for him for starleagues has always been hard.
Every other season, Bisu tries to do something new in this matchup. But rather than making incremental changes over time, he tries to completely change to a different style within the scope of one season. When that predictably doesn't work, he goes back to good 11-12 min gateway man arbiter bust the next time around.
This time was no different. He tried to bust a very well fortified position, failed, lost the first arbiter to turrets, and despite having entire map (literally taking every base except the 4 bases open for terran), could not keep up in follow-up engagements.
Bisu's PvT may be #4 in the world in terms of ELO, but his style has always been something extra effective against weak terrans, and not reliable at all against strong terrans. And if you're trying to win a league, it is hard to dodge every single strong Terran.
I agree with all of your points but I think you might just have a bad attitude/perspective about watching/enjoying the game. If Bisu is bad at PvT then basically what, there's only 3 players in the world that are good at the matchup at all? wtf lol
Reminds me of the very toxic most annoying "fans" that just say everyone sucks except flash whenever they see a player make a mistake or not play super exceptionally every game. No one can play the game perfect, everyone has their own style etc. That's what make the game fun to watch and enjoy.
edit - having said that though. Now more than ever I really do wish stork and bisu could archon-morpth together and form a perfect PvZ/PvT player lol (bisu's mechanics and stork's strategic mind) .
Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
What do you mean by blame his multitask? I find it funny because I think sometimes the unnecessary multitasking kind of does him more harm than good. Like in PvT oftentimes what you need is patience and precision instead of doing 3 things at the same time. Snow often lets his minerals build up a bit (sometimes A LOT) when he's microing valuable units like Reavers and Templars. But watching Bisu's FPVOD I have the impression that he can't slow himself down, to his own detriments.
I think like eonzerg said, unless JD really changes his playstyle, I don't think he's going to go very far
He succeeded in the KESPA era because he is decisive and aggressive, but nowadays, the game changes on a dime if you lose an additional 1-2 units, and he's just not good at adapting and playing the macro game.
I have been paying close attention to jaedong lately, and like the other guy said. He has definitely stepped up his game. I'm not sure if it's solid enough to win an ASL, but he looks strong enough to beat anyone right now.
On February 09 2024 09:22 TMNT wrote: What do you mean by blame his multitask? I find it funny because I think sometimes the unnecessary multitasking kind of does him more harm than good. Like in PvT oftentimes what you need is patience and precision instead of doing 3 things at the same time. Snow often lets his minerals build up a bit (sometimes A LOT) when he's microing valuable units like Reavers and Templars. But watching Bisu's FPVOD I have the impression that he can't slow himself down, to his own detriments.
This is 100% a true thing. A good example is Hyuk. Hyuk is so hell bent on being insanely fast with his arguably the best keyboard+mouse mechanical skill in all of starcraft, that he loses out on using brain power for proper optimizations, information gathering + processing, often overspends on too many low tier units and doesn't properly progress his gas unit compositions on time.
Not playing at maximum APM and Maximum multitasking seems to be the superior option because it opens up mental processing power and more attention to detail. Snow will quite often just take a "somewhat calm" look at what he's dealing with.
On February 09 2024 22:27 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: This is 100% a true thing. A good example is Hyuk. Hyuk is so hell bent on being insanely fast with his arguably the best keyboard+mouse mechanical skill in all of starcraft, that he loses out on using brain power for proper optimizations, information gathering + processing, often overspends on too many low tier units and doesn't properly progress his gas unit compositions on time.
Not playing at maximum APM and Maximum multitasking seems to be the superior option because it opens up mental processing power and more attention to detail. Snow will quite often just take a "somewhat calm" look at what he's dealing with.
FlaSh was also exemplary in this style of play. He is fast, but "calm" and doesn't seem too overwraught if he misses an SCV or something. I think a lot of it comes down to being extremely comfortable and confident with screen switching using the keyboard. He just doesn't use the mouse all that much. He isn't constantly clicking or spamming with the mouse. Most of the APM comes from his keyboard hand, and it is so automatic that it allows him to "step back" or "stay above" and view things objectively, and use the mouse "when needed".
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
Not sure if it's a typo, but I would hard disagree with Snow being tied for having the best PvZ. He's the only top 5 Protoss that routinely gets knocked out early by Zergs worse than him and I'd say his PvZ is the worst out of all top 5 Protoss players.
I would argue that Mini's PvZ is the best right now; Bisu and Mini both beat Zergs routinely, but Bisu falters against top Zerg players whereas Mini has won against them (Mini's had the somewhat unfair advantage of having like 40 more vZ games than vP and vT games combined until the last 2-3 seasons)
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
Not sure if it's a typo, but I would hard disagree with Snow being tied for having the best PvZ. He's the only top 5 Protoss that routinely gets knocked out early by Zergs worse than him and I'd say his PvZ is the worst out of all top 5 Protoss players.
I would argue that Mini's PvZ is the best right now; Bisu and Mini both beat Zergs routinely, but Bisu falters against top Zerg players whereas Mini has won against them (Mini's had the somewhat unfair advantage of having like 40 more vZ games than vP and vT games combined until the last 2-3 seasons)
I haven't had time for the latter half of 2023, but generally it's the same.
Mini having the best PvZ is the biggest myth in the modern era of BW. The 8-2 he did to Queen five seasons ago gave audiences that impression forever when in fact it was more like 2 consecutive freak results.
Mods, please delete this post. I somehow logged in through steam and messed up my credentials. I will log in properly next time through Battle.net. Sorry for the inconvenience.
On February 09 2024 05:44 Soulforged wrote: Calling Bisu's PvT bad, that was someone else. I'm calling it disappointing, relative to his potential and mechanical competence ;/
Always excited to see him try new things to break and try something new in that matchup, even if it fails. Always sad when it doesn't stick for more than a few months and he goes back to the decade-old approach. Currently in the sad phase.
Bisu has a strong PvT in online performances. But he is wildly stubborn with his build orders and isn't the kind of player to play "slow peel" tactics like Snow. Snow is the kind of player to build up to a large leveraging situation with preceding smaller engages, like peeling an onion. BUT Bisu's PvZ is actually currently the best(maybe on par with snow's but different methodology) whereas his PvT clearly isn't. Mini, Best, and Snow all do have a better PvT. Stork I would disagree on.
Not sure if it's a typo, but I would hard disagree with Snow being tied for having the best PvZ. He's the only top 5 Protoss that routinely gets knocked out early by Zergs worse than him and I'd say his PvZ is the worst out of all top 5 Protoss players.
I would argue that Mini's PvZ is the best right now; Bisu and Mini both beat Zergs routinely, but Bisu falters against top Zerg players whereas Mini has won against them (Mini's had the somewhat unfair advantage of having like 40 more vZ games than vP and vT games combined until the last 2-3 seasons)
I haven't had time for the latter half of 2023, but generally it's the same.
Mini having the best PvZ is the biggest myth in the modern era of BW. The 8-2 he did to Queen five seasons ago gave audiences that impression forever when in fact it was more like 2 consecutive freak results.
I'd still say that daily proleague games are very different compared to tournament games Mini might not be good at casual vZ games recently, but his tournament preparation is really, really good
I should have quantified "best right now" with "best right now in a tournament setting"
The thing that stood out the most to me in comparison between offline and online Snow PvZ is his HTs. Online, he sometimes uses pure goon/HT to deal with muta snipes attempts. If he has corsairs, he's routinely storming scourge, etc. Basically his reaction from mutas appearing on minimap to selecting a HT and storming them is near instant. Others don't really have that.
Some interesting discussion these last few pages. My knowledge pales in comparison to some of you fine folks so it’s nice to soak some up, although I’m not entirely clueless I hope!
For me part of what makes BW such an incredible eSport is precisely that basically nobody has mastered it, even now. Folks still have deficiencies and quirks and different skill sets, hell some play completely differently from their peers in a matchup as a result.
Eloboard right before ASL begins(monday) to get a grasp on who is currently doing quite well. Will this reflect in their ASL performance? somewhat... but upsets are all too common these days:
On February 05 2024 04:24 outscar wrote: Is Sea's group rigged, like how the hell it's same opponent as last ASL qualifiers? He better play like he used to do this time , it was really painful to watch his previous games when he played like degen. And ofc gogo BaBy, really excited to see what he can show.
On February 04 2024 19:09 TMNT wrote:
The most fresh Protoss that can break to this level is probably Brain but he no longer plays standard maps. But he's also a special talent: the GOAT of fastest.
For me he's GOAT of psi storms, no one can storm like he does since JangBi left.
ASL staff makes groups by hand. They try to make them so that the top players can qualify. They definitely put Horang2, Sea and Guemchi together for fun because they play together a whole lot.
It isnt random? Wow that sounds i n s a n e to me if true.
What the hell!?
They have a clear incentive to get stream/crowd favourites to qualify. The previous group mentioned (Sea, Horang2, Guemchi) are all big audience variety streamers.
Oh cool just noticed TY/Baby was qualified, he was pretty damn close to qualifying for GSL too.
Would have been neat as to my knowledge it would have been the only time someone had qualified for a Starleague/equivalent in both games that were actively running at around the same time.
Wonder how he’s splitting his time these days between the two, or perhaps even more games, is he still mostly an SC guy or has he dipped his toes into variety streaming?
On February 25 2024 20:06 ruhtraeel wrote: Man I just want Effort to win one more ASL to solidify himself as the second best player of the post Kespa era
I think he could totally do it
Hmmm. I think that title is probably in Light, Rain, Mini ,soulkey or Queen's hands currently. Light Rain Soulkey have won KSL and ASL and have consistently performed at the top, minus queen not qualifying this time. Mini has been in the most finals beside Flash. Queen has won the most ASL finals beside flash.
But Snow, Lighr, Soma and Mini have by far the best Online achievements, in that order.
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YSC, 2nd seed 
Hyuk, 3rd seed 
Barracks. Are you telling me that these two can't be ahead of the above 4 players in a seeding system, whatever the way you calculate their coefficient (if there exists one). 
I feel for him..
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