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Yay my first post
[IEST] Hwasin and Calm: Attempt@Psuedo-Journalism. - Page 5
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FISHHEAD
Korea (South)1 Post
. . . Yay my first post | ||
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Trainninja
Australia105 Posts
On October 23 2007 12:24 oneofthem wrote: the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous. feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter. QED. Nevertheless i agree with Nintu that there is a possibility. But what you fail to understand is that that possibility is quite low. In my mind, there is the off chance Calm mashed his keyboard and a massive typo came out. Twice. It is a shame this incident happened. I find myself nodding to whatever incontrol had to say and I understand where the outrage is coming from. But in the end, not much can be done. The only thing this changes for me is that i will cheer for whoever plays against Hwasin or Calm (even Midas) and hate STX soul. I believe this is going to be the extent it will affect Hwasin or Calm - lose alot of foreign fans. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches" It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this. I don't see how it would matter too much, since they're on the same team, and both Koreans. It's not like China had a chance for 1st place and they got cheated or anything. While if this is true, then it would be very bad sportmanship, and a little bad mannered on the behalf of the Koreans, I don't think KeSPa or anyone should have a very powerful reaction to this. Stopped reading at "Too competitive". I think years of obviously thrown games in WCG is enough to show that politics often comes first. EDIT: Wtf there were 5 pages. I didn't see that. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i am not interested in debating this hypothetical offered up for fun, nor am i interested in dissecting inadequately prepared rationalizations. if i feel the defense has offered up a substantial argument, i'll be happy to examine it, but until then, off to watch lolianimu | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
But like it or not it won't impact foreign tournaments but it will be remembered just as Testie's past is on this forum. And those two players now have tarnished what little is left of outside fanbase. | ||
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Waves
Australia185 Posts
We have this illusion that the players are doing it "for the fans". That what they love most of all is giving people something exciting to watch. I think for most StarCraft players, what they enjoy is the end result of the pleased fans (money, fame, etc) rather than the pure altruism some people like to ascribe to them. There's nothing wrong with that, they're just people like us after all, but we (or rather, sports administrators) should take that into account when designing tournaments and events. One issue that doesn't seem to be in dispute is that professional Korean players don't take foreign tournaments seriously, or at least not the competition they find there. Related to this is the fact that the Korean fans don't take them seriously either. Hwasin and Calm had little prestige to win back home in Korea by coming away with the victory at the tournament. In a situation like that, where the money was secured and probably going to be shared, the only thing they had to fight for was prestige. With no prestige to actually be won, the game turns into a practice match. Which is what we saw. I think they rigged the games, and I don't like that they did it, but I don't know why anyone should be surprised that it happened. People talk about players showing respect for the fans and the organizers, but what about the organizers and the fans showing respect for the players? Lets put them in situations where they will be genuinely rewarded for trying hard. And yes, I think this means that there's no point inviting Korean progamers to a tournament like IEST. I don't even think they should bother with StarCraft at WCG. I know many of you love to see the Koreans play outside of Korea, especially if it means you get replays as well as VODs, but there just simply is not a credibly competitive international StarCraft player base. I also think it's far too late to create one. The chance for StarCraft has passed. It will live on in Korea, and we should be happy with that. I believe we should put our hopes in StarCraft 2 instead. Many of you are anxious during this (still early!) phase of its development, but personally I believe Blizzard will end up making a fun and challenging RTS game that makes for high level competition and fun spectating. It won't be the beautiful StarCraft we love, but it might very well be the beautiful StarCraft 2 we grow to love, with a charm of its own. I think StarCraft 2 actually has quite a good chance of developing a strong and competitive international community. Criticize WarCraft 3 all you like (and I certainly have many criticisms), but one thing you can say for it is that there is a genuine international community, with gamers from many places outside Korea who are the equal of Korean pros. I think StarCraft 2 will be even better in this regard. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Waves
Australia185 Posts
On October 23 2007 14:05 oneofthem wrote: we are not surprised, but we are certainly justified in taking it seriously, since taking it seriously is equivalent to loving the game in a certain way. Oh, certainly. But I think criticism should be levelled at the situation the players were put in, as well as the players themselves. WCG, for instance, is poorly designed and poorly run. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12799 Posts
Without them progaming does not exist. They should remember this before deciding to tank games like they did. | ||
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Waves
Australia185 Posts
On October 23 2007 14:07 RowdierBob wrote: The progamers have a very large obligation to fans, organisers and sponsors. Without them progaming does not exist. They should remember this before deciding to tank games like they did. Evidence suggests that the Korean fans don't care about this tournament much at all, or what happened in the final. If they really had their reputation, credibility or livelihood at stake they wouldn't have done it. You wouldn't see this at an OSL final. Or at least if you did, there would be massive bribery or something else involved, instead of just basic lack of motivation. And once it was discovered, there would be a huge scandal over it. The lack of scandal over this in Korea comes from the same source as the incident itself. This tournament didn't matter, from the perspective of professional Korean StarCraft gaming. Edit: And that's the whole problem. If you expect players to play like a tournament matters, then make it matter. Some players will try their hardest regardless (and that's an ideal we should applaud and encourage players to strive for), but most won't. That's just the way people work. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 23 2007 14:06 Waves wrote: that too, but if you are going to take a hard look at the tournament, take a harder look at the players. Oh, certainly. But I think criticism should be levelled at the situation the players were put in, as well as the players themselves. WCG, for instance, is poorly designed and poorly run. why look into how the tournament was run if we are not committed to a certain concept of 'how the game should be played,' the same ideal with which we judge the players. examining the tournament organization then could only increase scrutiny over the players, not excuse them. | ||
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Waves
Australia185 Posts
On October 23 2007 14:21 oneofthem wrote: why look into how the tournament was run if we are not committed to a certain concept of 'how the game should be played,' I think we should definitely be committed to a concept of "how the game should be played". I just think all the tournaments (and leagues and other professional events) should be designed in order to encourage that kind of play as much as possible. To expect the players to manage it by themselves is being too optimistic about human nature, I think. We see time and time again in every sport that most players (and I do stress most, there are always a few exceptions) only exhibit "good sportsmanship" when the conditions encourage it. Fans wanting sportsmanship is a good start, but it's not nearly enough. Just look at all the drug-taking in physical sports as an example of that. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Waves
Australia185 Posts
I don't like that they did it, but I'm not going to say they're horrible people for having done it. I think we have a responsibility, just as they do, and that our responsibility is to make sure that they're put in situations which help them act with good sportsmanship, rather than hindering them. + Show Spoiler + Is this the tournament that Hwasin returned from just prior to losing to Bisu in the MSL Ro16? Hwasin looked devastated after losing that deciding third game. If he was contemplating that tough task ahead, I can certainly understand why he wouldn't have wanted to play a gruelling best of 5 match the day before (is that when it was?). | ||
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Maenander
Germany4923 Posts
The told us in the interviews they are like 50:50 in practice games. So one wins some and one loses some. They are friends and team-mates, so money didn´t play a role, winning IEST doesn´t even bring much fame compared to korean leagues. They never played each other in an important game before. So it felt like practice, and maybe Calm felt Hwasin as the more successful and experienced player deserved to win this. Hwasin did much more for their team, while the 50:50 ratio brought a randomness into the games that didn´t really show this. So in the last 2 games the worthier player had to win without the other one losing his face. So maybe it was just a spontaneous decision by 2 young players, who haven´t been in this situation before, and who didn´t really think about the consequences of such behavior for their credibility nor what it meant to the chinese organizers and spectators. Honestly, I wouldn´t blame them too much. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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A.G)Andy
China127 Posts
Match. Im watching the IEST Final Live becoz im a scer like all the other scer im just want to watch the korean top players show us some incredible match and micro. for this matter,we can do nothing about it ,but hopefully it will never ever happen again in the International Tourney | ||
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The Storyteller
Singapore2486 Posts
On October 23 2007 15:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: A tournament is a tournament if you refuse to take it as competition or serious, then they should have never participated. Um... no... That's like saying you shouldn't take up a job unless you'll be serious about it, but lots of people take on jobs they are not serious about for the money. It's up to the employer to make sure every member of his staff is a member he wants to hire. So if the IEST organisers can't make this a major tournament that everyone cares about, or if they can't even find progamers who will be serious about the tournament, too bad. What's the problem with throwing games for the sake of your team/country, anyway? Happens in F1 all the time. It's sports, not a circus. | ||
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Midori
195 Posts
they have to right to play however they want since they both made it to the finals. it just shows that foreigners just cant compete. as rekrul has said tons of times. forieigners just suck. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On October 23 2007 16:51 The Storyteller wrote: Um... no... That's like saying you shouldn't take up a job unless you'll be serious about it, but lots of people take on jobs they are not serious about for the money. It's up to the employer to make sure every member of his staff is a member he wants to hire. So if the IEST organisers can't make this a major tournament that everyone cares about, or if they can't even find progamers who will be serious about the tournament, too bad. What's the problem with throwing games for the sake of your team/country, anyway? Happens in F1 all the time. It's sports, not a circus. I would think if your room/board/plane ticket is being paid for plus given a huge cash prize on top of that, then I would expect that person to take whatever he's supposed to do pretty fucking seriously. The IEST did everything they could to make this a major tournament everyone cares about and even if it didn't get as many viewers it's not THEIR fault the progamers were dirty scumbags. Were they supposed to have done personality checks with every Korean before they invite them? Just because NBA players sexually assault women all the time, does that make it okay for progamers to do so? | ||
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