Hwasin and Calm: E-Sports' Henry Poppe and Jack Byrnes?
By Tadzio00.
On Jan. 17, 1951, Henry Poppe and Jack Byrnes were the first players arrested on bribery and conspiracy charges for their involvement in collegiate basketball's greatest game-fixing scandal. Poppe and Byrnes were indicted for violations of section 382 of the penal code, the bill passed by the New York State legislature in 1945, which made illegal any attempt to bribe a participant in any sporting event, amateur or professional. But they weren't the last players touched by the scandal. Between 1951 and 1952, District Attorney Frank Hogan arrested 32 players from seven colleges who fixed 86 games between 1947 and 1950. Only 8 of these 32 players were not convicted.
What Has All This To Do With Hwasin and Calm?
On Oct. 21 2007, Hwasin and Calm, teammates from the S.Korean Broodwar e-Sports team, STX SouL, played in China's International Electronic Sports Tournament (IEST) Grand Finals, a best of 5 games series, and are confirmed to have sent whispers to one another before games 4 and 5. According to TL.net member, A.G)Andy, Hwasin and Calm were colluding to engineer how these games would play out.
A.G)Andy explained that he was watching Hwasin's FPView live before the beginning of game 4 and he noticed that Hwasin had gotten a tell from Calm, revealing that Calm would 12 pool and suggesting Hwasin put a barracks in the center of the map. A.G)Andy said he thought they were chatting about game 3-- the previous game-- but as game 4 unfolded, Hwasin built a barracks in the center of Tau Cross and he realized that the players had been planning for game 4. Then again, before the beginning of game 5 A.G)Andy reports that Calm wrote, in part: "all drone 1 sunken." Hwasin replied, in part: "2sunken no ring."
Screen capture of Hwasin and Calm's whispers before game 5.
Two days and 450 posts after the creation of A.G)Andy's thread alarming the TL.net community to this controversy, the thread was closed because of the abundance of racist flames and other belligerent posts. The thread can still be read here.
STX SouL's Explication
STX SouL's public reaction to the developing controversy was nearly immediate. Speaking to Fomos.kr, STX Coach, Cho Gyu-baek explains, "It is true that the players were chatting during the finals. But match fixing is ridiculous. [...] There was a lot of chatting going on and most of it was simply routine mind games between the players. There were some people at the scene that made accusations, but the organizers who are familiar with Korea understood that there was nothing wrong going on."
STX SouL also issued flat denials to FighterForum.com, explaining:
Calm: "It was a mind trick, I was saying that even if I play like that I could still win, it was a taunt. I didn't expect it to cause this kind of misunderstanding."
Hwasin: "I played along with his messages but chat like that happens every game [during practice]. The one thing I didn't want was for the games to go long. So I attacked early with the thought that, if it works great, if not, then Calm wins so great."
Coach of STX: "Why would we fix a match when it doesn't matter who wins? I don't know where this controversy came from. What happened was two teammates with little experience playing in overseas tournaments were playing light-heartedly." Translations courtesy of TL.net member, HonestTea.
Whether the whispers were made in an effort to fix the outcome of the match, and for what reason, has yet to be officially determined. Still, strong suspicions remain, and will likely continue to linger until an official investigation is launched and some decision is made on how to handle it.
Community Reaction
Broodwar fans around the world have shown mixed reactions to this opprobrium. MYM.Testie downplayed it, suggesting that nothing should be done. "They are friends and teammates who probably agreed to split the prize money. [...] they did win fair and square."
NonY[rC] countered, "Fans want to know who the champion is, not who are the co-champions."
And {88}iNcontroL advanced this sentiment, "They can agree to split the money and still have a solid fucking series that the fans can view with excitement."
According to TL.net posters, OneOther and FConnectionUK, the S.Korean BW community is also divided. Many Koreans refuse to believe any of the charges, claiming that "jealous Chinese" photoshopped the evidence to frame Hwasin and Calm. But others wonder why they whispered one another if the chat was simply "mind games," as claimed.
Speculation of Repercussions
In 1951, just the accusation of point shaving and game fixing could ruin the basketball careers of NBA hopefuls. Bill Spivey, Kentucky's All-American center, was never officially implicated in points shaving, but he was accused of it by teammates, and on March 2, 1952 he was barred from athletic play at his university and subsequently blackballed from the NBA. It's hard to predict how S.Korea's e-Sports officials will react to this scandal, but however they decide to rule on it, I for one hope they take it very seriously. Their reaction to this instance of apparent cheating will influence the future of e-Sports.
Youtube vids of the incriminating FPViews:
Game4
Game5
Edit: There's a poll on page 3. Please make your feelings about this event known by voting on it.
It's not my hope to incite another flame war, but teamliquid.net is a Broodwar news website, and I think it's only proper for it to report news like this on its front page. I wrote this in the hopes it could be placed on the front page and inform visitors of the controversy. If the TL.net mods don’t think this is news-worthy, or that my writing sucks, and close this thread… okay. Just trying to help.
I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches" It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this. I don't see how it would matter too much, since they're on the same team, and both Koreans. It's not like China had a chance for 1st place and they got cheated or anything. While if this is true, then it would be very bad sportmanship, and a little bad mannered on the behalf of the Koreans, I don't think KeSPa or anyone should have a very powerful reaction to this.
Well, the thread that was closed had some really good responses to this. It came down to: Koreans didn't want to play their hardest, Chinese fans got an exhibition.
It basically undermined the sportsmanship and the competitive spirit of the medium itself, which StarCraft hasn't really got a whole lot of in the first place (or eSport in general). It's hard to take something serious when this kind of stuff happens. All of a sudden this opens up a whole bag of questions concerning tournaments we all know and trust. I'd say that if it really doesn't mean that much to you, don't go to it. If what the coach said was true, then don't go next time, let someone else go.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this.
no, the strongest argument is the fact that they told each other what builds they were gonna use before the games.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches"
You gotta understand something:
It's not what you believe that makes it true.
It's what's TRUE that makes it true.
All that's left is to decide how you'd react to it. The professional gaming scene is a korean phenon. Now China's trying to do the samething, they invited the pros with the promise of big purses knowing that Koreans have a great shot at winning it all, for what? Good Games. Now the coach admits to not caring. Fine, don't go next time. But don't anyone turn this into an ethnic thing to take the attention off of what happened.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this.
no, the strongest argument is the fact that they told each other what builds they were gonna use before the games.
But that doesnt really prove it wasnt indeed a mind game. For me it makes more sense that it was a mind game rather than some kind of fix.
On October 23 2007 06:42 kamehameha wrote: thx for the recap once again.. one time was enough imo
Well, for me an announcement made in broken english and a thread with 450 posts, most of which aren't informative, makes for a poor front-page news story. Thats why I tried to write 1 post clearly describing the whole incident with evidence included. If its not appreciated, oh well, I just wasted a couple hours.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this.
no, the strongest argument is the fact that they told each other what builds they were gonna use before the games.
But that doesnt really prove it wasnt indeed a mind game. For me it makes more sense that it was a mind game rather than some kind of fix.
You don't say "ok" to a mind game like Hwasin did.
And you don't tell your opponent what you're building twice in a row, when you're up 2-1, and if you're trying to win.
It's already been established that they did it, denial doesn't change the fact.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this.
no, the strongest argument is the fact that they told each other what builds they were gonna use before the games.
But that doesnt really prove it wasnt indeed a mind game. For me it makes more sense that it was a mind game rather than some kind of fix.
well if it is a mind game calm is pretty fucking retarded, telling his build twice even after hwasin direct countered it the first time.
On October 23 2007 07:12 il0seonpurpose wrote: If it was mind trick, why did their strategies for real happen? And what is 2 sunken no ring
2 sunkens (technically Calm had 4, but I think 3 had just been placed as creep colonies, so there was really only 1 sunken to defend) and no zerglings OR no bunkering. No zerglings seems more likely but some Koreans brought up at it could be #2.
seriously the people who think the "mind game" bs is even remotely true need to reconsider their lives asap. I am sure that is something they do all the time in practice games... but NOT on stage with thousands of people watching and $30k on the line (yes I know they were splitting it, fact remains thats a large chunk of cash = suggesting seriousness of the event). EVEN IF they were so dumb to not recognize the magnitude of the event (very unlikely, and if it is true than that is just as incriminating as the fixing itself imo) the fact they both did EXACTLY what they "joked" about in their mind games TWICE is either vastly unfortunate for them (fuck you, you are guilty) or it is a cover for what was actually happening.
Look, for me, this is a bad situation anyways. No answer they can give will dig them out of this hole short of "We are really sorry, we do honor and respect the event and all its participants. If our actions suggested anything short of this we would like to ask for forgiveness and give thanks to those that invited us to this wonderous occassion..." and the time for which they could have answered in that fashion, is long gone. They pointed fingers, gave excuses and made denials.
SC is starting to lose a lot of its luster for me. I feel like we live in a day and age where hackers and disrespectful people/actions are not held in the same light as what they used to be. SC didnt used to have a penguin plug or anything like that, so when "we" found a hacker they were socially punished by being banned/shunned/marked and forgotten. Same could be said for characters that pulled stunts on the level of Hwasin/Calm. But it doesnt seem like thats the case anymore. The endless rivers of excuses, scapegoats and finger pointing seems to taint this game and its community for a cluster fuck of reasons I dont care to get into too deeply. Fucking sad times.
If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
On October 23 2007 07:12 il0seonpurpose wrote: If it was mind trick, why did their strategies for real happen? And what is 2 sunken no ring
A: im going to kick your leg. so block your leg.
B: ok, ill block my leg.
B blocks face, A kicks leg.
B: thought you were tricking me and kicking my head.
Exactly my thought as well. Tell the same thing a second time and your opponent will be even more suspicious. That's exactly what mind games are, not just plain lying as some people here seem to think... I wouldn't even care if they rigged it, it was an unimportant tournament anyway and both got to the final easily. Offer better competition and the players might actually care.
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
except for the fact that they chatted like that in front of thousands of people is the one thing that isnt questionable, theres proof of that.
can people who actually dont even read the OP / topic area please stop posting? Shit like the quoted segment above gets under my skin. It is VERY clear where the fucking chat logs are from.. and if you dont know details like that its best you hold off on the post until you do know shit like that.
On October 23 2007 07:12 il0seonpurpose wrote: If it was mind trick, why did their strategies for real happen? And what is 2 sunken no ring
A: im going to kick your leg. so block your leg.
B: ok, ill block my leg.
B blocks face, A kicks leg.
B: thought you were tricking me and kicking my head.
Exactly my thought as well. Tell the same thing a second time and your opponent will be even more suspicious. That's exactly what mind games are, not just plain lying as some people here seem to think... I wouldn't even care if they rigged it, it was an unimportant tournament anyway and both got to the final easily. Offer better competition and the players might actually care.
That's completely illogical. If the competition was terrible and the two players had an easy run to the finals, then that final bo5 should be the only time they find themselves with worthy competition, thus should be the only time they actually need to try hard.
Instead as we saw, #1 they treated it like an exhibition and didn't try hard (the players admitted this) and #2 the likely rigging.
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
except for the fact that they chatted like that in front of thousands of people is the one thing that isnt questionable, theres proof of that.
Yea I saw the video
What I meant was it was just an mind trick. Most progamers do this often right before the game.
So many noobs just dont understand the mind games of progamers.
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
except for the fact that they chatted like that in front of thousands of people is the one thing that isnt questionable, theres proof of that.
Yea I saw the video
What I meant was it was just an mind trick. Most progamers do this often right before the game.
So many noobs just dont understand the mind games of progamers.
... yes before every game one opponent lays out his build order, the other says "ok" and proceeds to do a counter build twice in a row.
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
except for the fact that they chatted like that in front of thousands of people is the one thing that isnt questionable, theres proof of that.
Yea I saw the video
What I meant was it was just an mind trick. Most progamers do this often right before the game.
So many noobs just dont understand the mind games of progamers.
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
except for the fact that they chatted like that in front of thousands of people is the one thing that isnt questionable, theres proof of that.
Yea I saw the video
What I meant was it was just an mind trick. Most progamers do this often right before the game.
So many noobs just dont understand the mind games of progamers.
Can we argue with each other without calling people that disagree noobs or idiots or whatever? If it can be helped, I'd rather not see this thread in the closed forum before the issue is resolved by korean officials.
Edit: on that front, do our korean members have any developing news from Korean websites?
splitting the prize is fine or whatever, IMO it should free them up so they play better.
Calm is a pussy if he really rigged the matches, he has no heart for not wanting to win that when hes in the finals.
Dont invite them anymore, if they really rigged it they wont be good players for long anyway, their desire will fade away and theyll start to suck when they face some adversity.
I mean it's like Stork tanking his games vs Ra, or Midas tanking vs A2.
Yes it happened and it shows a lack of respect to the tournament, but as everything in life there's a difference between knowing the truth and proving the truth.
Just unofficially exclude Hwasin and Calm from future foreigner tournies like these and hope to avoid a similar situation.
You can find the truth actually. You compile evidence / lean on them with community support and eventually the truth is squeezed out.
Even if they deny it forever that is fine, the disrespect they have shown is enough to AT LEAST do as RowdierBob suggested, ban them from future events and plan for a better tomorrow.
mind trick LOL, at least have the decency to apologize after you took all that money from the organizers. Everyone involved in this are complete trash. Hwasin should've gotten disqualified for using the scv bug. He didn't, advanced to the finals and took it as a joke. The prize money for IEST is close to that of OSL, this money doesn't just appear, the people who pay it expect the event to be taken seriously. Now the STX coach not only does not reprimand his players but tries to cover it up with them in the most idiotic way possible giving a reason only complete starcraft idiots would buy. IEST treated the progamers well and they turn around and shit in everyone's faces, and now a bunch of retarded fanboys are ruining TL by agreeing with the official statement. Shut the fuck up. Hwasin and Calm did not take the final seriously. The Chinese players went through months of qualification before the final tourney. Many had to travel across the country for the Chinese lan final. STX came for the money, they got it, at least don't be such completely fucking scumbags. Someone translate this to korean please and post it on Fifo.
On October 23 2007 08:51 {88}iNcontroL wrote: You can find the truth actually. You compile evidence / lean on them with community support and eventually the truth is squeezed out.
Even if they deny it forever that is fine, the disrespect they have shown is enough to AT LEAST do as RowdierBob suggested, ban them from future events and plan for a better tomorrow.
Your version of the truth is different to theirs though. What you call rigging they call mind games and you cannot prove this otherwise.
I'm not saying the games weren't rigged becasue I believe they were, but it something the community cannot prove short of Hwasin and Calm admitting it themselves.
Take Davydenko in the tennis for example. Everyone knows he was tanking games as part of that betting scandal, but they can't prove it.
if someone says before hand what he's going to to before a game, the other person replies okay, and the game happens exactly as that I think a non-retarded person would agree that that description fits what is called, a "rigged game".
Good article which is well summarized. but I don't think this discussion can affect toward Korean anymore. majority of korean just take one of followed views 1. It is understandable foreign suspect a rigged game. but I believe our players and what they said 2. What is IEST? I don't care about foreign league. 3. I don't know which one is true, so I won't care.
and minor opinions 4. Why chinese are always afflicting us? (kind of racist thing) 5. Do you have eyes? It must be a rigged game!
Those Koreans already lost interest in this issue as just a few people believe 5 Currently they are talking why AirForce team are losing again and again, and whether Bisu can be listed on bonjwa line(Boxer-Nada-oov-Savior)
I don't think Kespa do something either. It can't be completely proven and they are not in charge of foreign league. expecially there's no opposite pro team to claim (You know Kespa is proteam' association)
It seems unlikely that the Koreans will do anything at this point, but have any of the Chinese officials said anything? What if STX were banned from competing in IEST from now on. Yes, Koreans look down on foreign tournaments, but do they look down on foreign $30,000 paychecks?
On October 23 2007 09:30 Jibba wrote: It seems unlikely that the Koreans will do anything at this point, but have any of the Chinese officials said anything? What if STX were banned from competing in IEST from now on. Yes, Koreans look down on foreign tournaments, but do they look down on foreign $30,000 paychecks?
I'm curious too. What are Chinese official/IEST saying about this issue?
On October 23 2007 07:12 il0seonpurpose wrote: If it was mind trick, why did their strategies for real happen? And what is 2 sunken no ring
A: im going to kick your leg. so block your leg.
B: ok, ill block my leg.
B blocks face, A kicks leg.
B: thought you were tricking me and kicking my head.
LOL but the worst part is, Hwasin followed up with his builds instead of countering.
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
It's probably real hard to read what they were typing in audience view and they had little spelling errors (or codes) to probably make it seem weird. And from my thoughts, Chinese ( or any other type of people) wouldnt really understand what they were saying anyway.
On October 23 2007 09:25 Manatea wrote: Good article which is well summarized.
2. What is IEST? I don't care about foreign league.
and minor opinions 4. Why chinese are always afflicting us? (kind of racist thing) 5. Do you have eyes? It must be a rigged game!
If you have read, IEST is a chinese league, so why did you ask that question, since you dont care about foriegn leagues? Chinese are not afflicting us (Koreans), I think game was rigged, even if its not as big as Proleague or god forbid a individual league, people watching basically a play or a skit. And if we have eyes, thats sorta retarded question because obviously, Koreans and Chinese have real small eyes , and are you saying the game was rigged or not? Confusing
The main reason I'm pissed is because of the money involved. Progamers in China make no money at all and their families have no money either which is the main reason they became progamers in the first place. Players like F91 who are good enough to be pro but well off financially don't become progamers, because it sucks having to practice 12 hours a day in terrible conditions and getting paid almost no salary and having to win tournaments to afford basic necessities. $16,000 is enough to last most an entire year in China. Every progamer in China could use it more and have worked harder for it than Hwasin and Calm, the least they could do is apologize, either way they're getting banned next year.
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
I think Hwasin and Calm didnt know IEST had first person view live,if they konw,why they had to use whisper to talk about games?
On October 23 2007 09:30 Jibba wrote: It seems unlikely that the Koreans will do anything at this point, but have any of the Chinese officials said anything? What if STX were banned from competing in IEST from now on. Yes, Koreans look down on foreign tournaments, but do they look down on foreign $30,000 paychecks?
I'm curious too. What are Chinese official/IEST saying about this issue?
On October 23 2007 07:35 ambit!ous1 wrote: If the games were fixed it was probably done before the match. What idiot would chat like that when thousands of people are watching. Its just plain and simple.
It's probably real hard to read what they were typing in audience view and they had little spelling errors (or codes) to probably make it seem weird. And from my thoughts, Chinese ( or any other type of people) wouldnt really understand what they were saying anyway.
On October 23 2007 09:25 Manatea wrote: Good article which is well summarized.
2. What is IEST? I don't care about foreign league.
and minor opinions 4. Why chinese are always afflicting us? (kind of racist thing) 5. Do you have eyes? It must be a rigged game!
If you have read, IEST is a chinese league, so why did you ask that question, since you dont care about foriegn leagues? Chinese are not afflicting us (Koreans), I think game was rigged, even if its not as big as Proleague or god forbid a individual league, people watching basically a play or a skit. And if we have eyes, thats sorta retarded question because obviously, Koreans and Chinese have real small eyes , and are you saying the game was rigged or not? Confusing
Hes saying those are the main views in the korean community, not his views. Its in response to a question in the first thread.
I've read every message on the other thread and also those posted here. (Btw, nice writeup Tadzio00). Some people keep asking for the reasons, like they just can't think for themselves. Ok, let's try like this: * we can all agree that when we talk about a SC game between 2 korean pro-gamers (that each wants to win), it is implied full concentration from each player; * we can all agree Hwasin was tired and really wanted to get things over with as fast as possible; * we can all agree on the fact that korean pro-gamers and/or korean people involved in the SC gaming scene have little respect for foreign SC players when it comes to playing the game (and they have the right! they spend so much time training and give up so much stuff that they could do at that age; all they know is SC and they dedicate almost every waking our to getting better or staying in shape; also, they know foreign players are far, far from that); so, they probably have little respect for IEST (since it is a foreign competition), agree?;
So (he was tired and wanted to finish fast, he didn't care about the competition, he would've won money either way - i've read they split the money), why can't we agree that's a good enough reason to do what some people say they did?
And i can think of another reason: some people (in the other thread) were saying the players are not to blame because probably, if the games were fixed, it was done by their coach/team leaders. Maybe, just maybe, it was done like that, and the players didn't like it, but since they really can't go against the coach/team leader, they tried to send a message out in this way. (I think this scenario is far-fetched... but who knows; sometimes the most crazy conspiracy theories turn out to be true). Now you could ask: "If this fixing really happened, why Hwasin and not Calm for no.1?" (i shouldn't give a reason for this; for me it's obvious; but i've seen arround here there's a few that just don't want to think on this matter too much). Hwasin is the icon of STX (not Tossgirl ), their best player (i think), but it's tired and he can't compete with a more rested Calm. So, since it's only IEST .... Also, comebacks are always nice to watch and give spectators more entertainment, so ... Hwasin no.1.
On to the mind trick thing. Well, i think i can understand that type of mind game (so i tell my opponent i'll do the X build to get him to think that i'll never do that build, right? and when the game starts, i'll do exactly that build and surprise him). But why try to hide it? Why whispered? Do it without whispering so everyone can see it. Or maybe their type of mind games are not to be shared with the foreigners? (inC - we know sarcasm). Well ... maybe they feared that the foreigners will not understand that type of mind games and will react with a 23pages closed thread and more. Or maybe they had something to hide. What do you think it's more logic? My logic tells me they had something to hide.
I have a lot of respect for the pro-gamers (already stated at the begining of the post why) even if some of them have little respect for foreign players and competitions (like i said, they've earned their right to look down on these things - i'm not saying it's an ok thing, i'm just saying i don't think this kind of behaviour should be a reason for foreigners to be angry at them). BUT, fixing the games in a competition with (a lot) of money at stake, with (a lot) of fans watching and in the Final, it's just on a level of low that i simply can't ignore - comparable with maphacking and cheating. This will haunt them for sometime, fortunately for them it seems the "storm" will stay outside Korea and since they don't care that much about foreign stuff, they'll just go on with their usual schedule. Concerning fans outside Korea, they'll probably make a mind note about this and every time Hwasin or Calm plays, they'll watch the game wishing for SC karma to leave it's mark. I know it doesn't sounds right, but i think threads on tl.net with people expressing their discontempt towards this issue is all that's going to happen - no bans, no dq's, no korean fans angry at the two or any penalties by the team or someone else.
PS: While some think the primary reason they shouldn't have done this is because of the money involved, i think the primary reason is the respect for the people watching (fans or simple audience interested in SC - because of these people watching they have sponsors and a team and a monthly paycheck and they should treat them with more respect). I'm mostly basing this on the fact that it didn't matter if they fixed it or not, the prize would still go to them and not some other player. IF we were talking about a fixed game that prevented some other player to earn prize money, then yes, i'd focus on that too and i think even the officials would've looked more into it.
Disclaimer: This post is built upon a founding assumption: that Hwasin and Calm rigged the results of IEST's Grand Final. If you disagree with this assumption, the entirety of this post will be beneath considering. Like deniers of US torture in the war on terror, you needn't bother thinking about what should be done, since as far as you're concerned it didn't happen. So, ignore this post if you can't entertain the idea that they fixed the finals.
From my perspective, S.Korean e-Sports has 2 ways they can deal with this. 1) They can ignore the scandal and move on with business as usual, which is what they seem to be doing if Manatea's assessment is accurate. Or 2) Deal with the problem head-on, issue reprimands based on the strength of current evidence, and take steps to prevent such behavior in the future.
It almost goes without saying that I think they should pursue the second option. Although this was a foreign tournament and hardly in the purview of Korean officials, how Korean pros conduct themselves abroad is of great importance to the business' foreign expansion aims. Koreans that have an interest in expanding e-Sports into other countries (I.E. proteam sponsor corporations) should weigh their options carefully.
In my opinion, the foreign e-Sports scene, such as it is, and particularly the foreign BW tournament organizers, rely upon and are in a symbiotic relationship with Korea's progamers. The public and corporate success of Korea's leagues as a spectators sport grants legitimacy to and establishes an example for foreign BW in particular and e-Sports in general as a competitive activity worthy of watching, earning sponsors, and advertising through. Without this borrowed legitimacy, foreign e-Sports might not exist... and I'm certain it wouldn't exist with regards to BW.
Although I wouldn't say this single event will destroy the business of e-Sports outside S.Korea, it does nothing to help the cause, and imo, the effect is corrosive. As a result of this event, {88}inControL, a long time and accomplished BW player, wrote: "SC is starting to lose a lot of its luster for me." Now, he may've been exaggerating and will calm down once the novelty of this event wears off, I can't say for sure, but it certainly speaks to what I'm talking about here. He had something personal invested in the untainted sportsmanship of foreign tournaments. What happened at the IEST grand finals between Hwasin and Calm spoiled that for him. And I don't think he's alone in this feeling.
I'm adding a poll to gauge people's feelings about this:
Poll: Has this caused you to lose interest in Foreign BW tournaments? (Vote): Yes, I've lost some interest in foreign tournaments. (Vote): No, my interest in foreign tournaments is as strong as ever. (Vote): Korean progaming is all I care about. No opinion. (Vote): Cheating is part of foreign tourneys, get used to it.
Voted second option (No, my interest in foreign tournaments is as strong as ever.) but the count increased on the first one....
I don't see how this affects the quality of the games between foreign players, at a foreign tournament. Just that from now on i will have no interest in the games involving 2 korean players from the same team or one of the two players involved in this thing; also, i will ask myself "is this for real or are they fixing it again?" everytime 2 koreans (from different teams) will play a game in a foreign tournament.
On October 23 2007 11:08 OnCoke wrote: Voted second option (No, my interest in foreign tournaments is as strong as ever.) but the count increased on the first one....
I don't see how this affects the quality of the games between foreign players, at a foreign tournament. Just that from now on i will have no interest in the games involving 2 korean players from the same team or one of the two players involved in this thing; also, i will ask myself "is this for real or are they fixing it again?" everytime 2 koreans (from different teams) will play a game in a foreign tournament.
I voted option #2 also, but it'll certainly affect the way I look at Hwasin and Calm from now on, and I'll be rooting for both to lose any time (not like that means anything, but meh). At the same time, it gives me more respect for players like Boxer and sAviOr who do specific things to entertain fans and who always try to crush their opponent.
Obviously, I'm afraid of being flamed for saying what I'm about to say, but here it goes...
I'm really starting to see the whole "Not taking it seriously"/"Mindgames" concept. I mean, we've all seen what pro's look like when they don't take a game seriously. Remember the All-star games?
"everyone, if boxer 8 raxes please scream"
Boxer sends out an early SCV, everyone starts screaming, yellow 12 pools.
BoxeR: "No kill today (in konglish, english in korean font)"
Or:
Nal_Ra let Chalrenge's pylon live, on the condition that he stay quiet.
Chalrenge: "Nal_Ra is rebuilding at 1"
Nal_Ra's probe finishes Chalrenge off
Chalrenge: "A f***""
When the players don't take it seriously, they have fun. Calm: "I'll beat you with this crazy build" Hwasin: "ok! I'll beat you anyway, no ring" (No bunker?)
I'm not saying this is exactly what happened, but considering the fact that players message eachother all the time to fool around and play mind games, it is DEFINITELY a possibility that this is what it was. To see it this way, you have to understand that players message eachother all the time, and that they really weren't taking the event seriously. Perhaps that is all they're guilty of? Not taking the event seriously?
Anyway, don't flame me. Just merely trying to understand the situation from both perspectives.
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
Honestly, I think the /w argument is the weakest of the bunch, and if it were just game 5 I'd be closer to the mind tricks thing, since Calm only said what he'd be doing.
On October 23 2007 09:30 Jibba wrote: It seems unlikely that the Koreans will do anything at this point, but have any of the Chinese officials said anything? What if STX were banned from competing in IEST from now on. Yes, Koreans look down on foreign tournaments, but do they look down on foreign $30,000 paychecks?
I'm curious too. What are Chinese official/IEST saying about this issue?
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
I uhh... I completely disagree with you.
There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional?
Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers.
Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would.
Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it."
The whisper argument is perfectly fine. The All-Star games are purely for fun, no money or championships involved. It's made to have a casual atmosphere where players are allowed to speak out and tease each other. What happened between Hwasin and Calm was during a tournament finals. Out of all the MSL FPVods I've seen, this has never happened before. The Koreans who went to Blizzcon didn't fuck around and whisper each other before the matches started.
In the Korean leagues, the players are perfectly fine with conducting conversations without /w in the chat lobby. Silly or psychological or both.
BoxeR vs YellOw after game 2, BoxeR's sarcastic "sugo". [after winning game 1 and game 2 off bunker rush, he went in lobby and said "hihih sugo" = good job. yeah ok ]
BoxeR vs NaDa in that hour+ TvT just saying random crap about nukes and turtling and mining. There was both teasing and strategical pokes.
Reach vs YellOw "shut up, noob" [this one is just a bit silly. Reach was doing the usual s/t/a/r/t that many gamers do. yellOw jokingly told him to shut up]
Reach vs someone [might've been Cloud? Not sure] bragging about his good looks
Chalrenge: I don't think I need examples for this one.
With so many examples of players perfectly able to talk in the lobby without /w, it seems suspicious that these two used it.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches" It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this. I don't see how it would matter too much, since they're on the same team, and both Koreans. It's not like China had a chance for 1st place and they got cheated or anything. While if this is true, then it would be very bad sportmanship, and a little bad mannered on the behalf of the Koreans, I don't think KeSPa or anyone should have a very powerful reaction to this.
a competitive mentality would show competitive behavior, and various other factors. that you believe they were in a competitive mentality does not make it so. look at what the coach said, as an effort to explain away the situation, 'the game was a meaningless game.' oh, who would think of that as an excuse in a hypercompetitive culture?
as for why it matters, first, it shows these players are not above fixing games. and then, it shows a disrespect for the tournament. we would be expecting too much for the gamers to treat The Game that seriously, (or maybe not) but this at least shatters some images and idols.
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
I uhh... I completely disagree with you.
There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional?
Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers.
Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would.
Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it."
It is possible, is it not?
Edit: typo.
the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous.
feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter.
For an American like me, the whispered taunt argument is hard to swallow. I'm sure their must be studies somewhere that show that public taunts cause more psychological damage, and therefore give more advantage than hidden ones. I'm not very aware of korean cultural taboos, so maybe its not cool to insult your opponent publicly there. But Muhammad Ali was pretty savvy at creating public appeal through his taunts. The guy held press conferences to taunt opponents like George Foreman ("If you dream of beating me, you'd better wake up and apologize", "Now you see me, now you don't. George thinks he will, but I know he won't"), he didn't pass Foreman notes under the table.
On October 23 2007 12:10 ArC_man wrote: The whisper argument is perfectly fine. The All-Star games are purely for fun, no money or championships involved. It's made to have a casual atmosphere where players are allowed to speak out and tease each other. What happened between Hwasin and Calm was during a tournament finals. Out of all the MSL FPVods I've seen, this has never happened before. The Koreans who went to Blizzcon didn't fuck around and whisper each other before the matches started.
Because as I, Hwasin, Calm and the coach said, they were taking it 'lightly' unlike the MSL. And yes, the Koreans do fuck around at other non-korean events, like WCG (Stork throwing games, obs/turret bug, etc..)
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
I uhh... I completely disagree with you.
There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional?
Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers.
Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would.
Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it."
It is possible, is it not?
Edit: typo.
the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous.
feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter.
You mis-understood. I never claimed it was the only logical explanation, just that it was possible, and if you examine the past behavior of pro-gamers at international events, that players whisper eachother all the time and play mind games(including talk about build orders and strategies), that this explanation is quite believable.
It is my personal opinion, that these players are probably only guilty of taking the event lightly, which they admitted to.
Basically, as cliche as it is, innocent until proven guilty. And until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which I don't believe it has been, I reserve my judgment.
On October 23 2007 12:10 ArC_man wrote: The whisper argument is perfectly fine. The All-Star games are purely for fun, no money or championships involved. It's made to have a casual atmosphere where players are allowed to speak out and tease each other. What happened between Hwasin and Calm was during a tournament finals. Out of all the MSL FPVods I've seen, this has never happened before. The Koreans who went to Blizzcon didn't fuck around and whisper each other before the matches started.
Because as I, Hwasin, Calm and the coach said, they were taking it 'lightly' unlike the MSL. And yes, the Koreans do fuck around at other non-korean events, like WCG (Stork throwing games, obs/turret bug, etc..)
hahahah. so they were taking it so lightly that they resorted to inventive mindgames to gain an edge, presumably, or simply to create some lulz by trolling the public and fucking over their image by playing exactly like how they told each other they would.
if they came out and said, LOL TROLLED, great lulz. i'd be more inclined to believe them and pass it off with a chuckle. but look, what you offered up as a rationalization does not make sense. if they took the tournament so lightly, why did they resort to hidden mindgames that the evil matler is reputed to engage in to gain an edge and prove his absolute badass competitiveness. did they also take their public image lightly when they did everything they could to appear suspicious.
here's the deal, if they do not come out in a few days and say, LOL EPIC TROLL!!! they colluded.
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
I uhh... I completely disagree with you.
There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional?
Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers.
Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would.
Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it."
It is possible, is it not?
Edit: typo.
the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous.
feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter.
You mis-understood. I never claimed it was the only logical explanation, just that it was possible, and if you examine the past behavior of pro-gamers at international events, that players whisper eachother all the time and play mind games(including talk about build orders and strategies), that this explanation is quite believable.
It is my personal opinion, that these players are probably only guilty of taking the event lightly, which they admitted to.
Basically, as cliche as it is, innocent until proven guilty. And until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which I don't believe it has been, I reserve my judgment.
i did not misunderstand. why offer a rationalization when there is no perceived benefit. rationalizatino and logic are tools that we would use if we wish to maybe convince people or establish a reasonable position. i am simply saying, you are not doing a good job at it.
On October 23 2007 12:28 Nintu wrote: Because as I, Hwasin, Calm and the coach said, they were taking it 'lightly' unlike the MSL. And yes, the Koreans do fuck around at other non-korean events, like WCG (Stork throwing games, obs/turret bug, etc..)
The fact that they weren't even taking the games seriously, even though it was the finals (with a lot of money involved from sponsors and fans) already warrants a full apology. They are professionals, they are expected to act professional. This entire event has shown how little class the whole STX team has.
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
I uhh... I completely disagree with you.
There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional?
Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers.
Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would.
Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it."
It is possible, is it not?
Edit: typo.
the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous.
feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter.
You mis-understood. I never claimed it was the only logical explanation, just that it was possible, and if you examine the past behavior of pro-gamers at international events, that players whisper eachother all the time and play mind games(including talk about build orders and strategies), that this explanation is quite believable.
It is my personal opinion, that these players are probably only guilty of taking the event lightly, which they admitted to.
Basically, as cliche as it is, innocent until proven guilty. And until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which I don't believe it has been, I reserve my judgment.
i did not misunderstand. why offer a rationalization when there is no perceived benefit. rationalizatino and logic are tools that we would use if we wish to maybe convince people or establish a reasonable position. i am simply saying, you are not doing a good job at it.
Well, your argument is "No", which isn't so much of an argument, as it is an opinion. And your opinion, noted.
Calm is just a pussy, Hwasin is just a dickface that played along. If hes tired of playing, get a fucking 3-0 and go home; instead he got 1-2 by his minor, and wins illegitimately.
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
I uhh... I completely disagree with you.
There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional?
Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers.
Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would.
Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it."
It is possible, is it not?
Edit: typo.
the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous.
feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter.
QED.
Nevertheless i agree with Nintu that there is a possibility. But what you fail to understand is that that possibility is quite low. In my mind, there is the off chance Calm mashed his keyboard and a massive typo came out. Twice.
It is a shame this incident happened. I find myself nodding to whatever incontrol had to say and I understand where the outrage is coming from. But in the end, not much can be done. The only thing this changes for me is that i will cheer for whoever plays against Hwasin or Calm (even Midas) and hate STX soul. I believe this is going to be the extent it will affect Hwasin or Calm - lose alot of foreign fans.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches" It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this. I don't see how it would matter too much, since they're on the same team, and both Koreans. It's not like China had a chance for 1st place and they got cheated or anything. While if this is true, then it would be very bad sportmanship, and a little bad mannered on the behalf of the Koreans, I don't think KeSPa or anyone should have a very powerful reaction to this.
Stopped reading at "Too competitive". I think years of obviously thrown games in WCG is enough to show that politics often comes first.
well of course it is possible. the most probable case, besides collusion is that they really staged an epic troll on the whole bw world. but from their reactions, either they are really godly actors with no business playing bw, or really bad actors and liars.
i am not interested in debating this hypothetical offered up for fun, nor am i interested in dissecting inadequately prepared rationalizations. if i feel the defense has offered up a substantial argument, i'll be happy to examine it, but until then, off to watch lolianimu
I agree the coach just added fuel to the fire with that. The chat and then followed up by the gameplay just put 2 and 2 together. Was it rigged, we most likely never know unless they admit it, which I highly doubt they will do unless the esport scene in Korea has the same reaction outside the country, like this. Which we all know will never happen.
But like it or not it won't impact foreign tournaments but it will be remembered just as Testie's past is on this forum. And those two players now have tarnished what little is left of outside fanbase.
Korean StarCraft players play StarCraft for a job. Most people don't try extra hard at their job in situations where it won't bring them any extra benefit. There are a few exceptions to this rule (people like Boxer, assuming the representations of his sportsmanship in this thread have been accurate), but we mustn't forget that this is how most people naturally behave.
We have this illusion that the players are doing it "for the fans". That what they love most of all is giving people something exciting to watch. I think for most StarCraft players, what they enjoy is the end result of the pleased fans (money, fame, etc) rather than the pure altruism some people like to ascribe to them. There's nothing wrong with that, they're just people like us after all, but we (or rather, sports administrators) should take that into account when designing tournaments and events.
One issue that doesn't seem to be in dispute is that professional Korean players don't take foreign tournaments seriously, or at least not the competition they find there. Related to this is the fact that the Korean fans don't take them seriously either. Hwasin and Calm had little prestige to win back home in Korea by coming away with the victory at the tournament. In a situation like that, where the money was secured and probably going to be shared, the only thing they had to fight for was prestige. With no prestige to actually be won, the game turns into a practice match. Which is what we saw.
I think they rigged the games, and I don't like that they did it, but I don't know why anyone should be surprised that it happened. People talk about players showing respect for the fans and the organizers, but what about the organizers and the fans showing respect for the players? Lets put them in situations where they will be genuinely rewarded for trying hard.
And yes, I think this means that there's no point inviting Korean progamers to a tournament like IEST. I don't even think they should bother with StarCraft at WCG. I know many of you love to see the Koreans play outside of Korea, especially if it means you get replays as well as VODs, but there just simply is not a credibly competitive international StarCraft player base. I also think it's far too late to create one. The chance for StarCraft has passed. It will live on in Korea, and we should be happy with that.
I believe we should put our hopes in StarCraft 2 instead. Many of you are anxious during this (still early!) phase of its development, but personally I believe Blizzard will end up making a fun and challenging RTS game that makes for high level competition and fun spectating. It won't be the beautiful StarCraft we love, but it might very well be the beautiful StarCraft 2 we grow to love, with a charm of its own.
I think StarCraft 2 actually has quite a good chance of developing a strong and competitive international community. Criticize WarCraft 3 all you like (and I certainly have many criticisms), but one thing you can say for it is that there is a genuine international community, with gamers from many places outside Korea who are the equal of Korean pros. I think StarCraft 2 will be even better in this regard.
we are not surprised, but we are certainly justified in taking it seriously, since taking it seriously is equivalent to loving the game in a certain way.
On October 23 2007 14:05 oneofthem wrote: we are not surprised, but we are certainly justified in taking it seriously, since taking it seriously is equivalent to loving the game in a certain way.
Oh, certainly. But I think criticism should be levelled at the situation the players were put in, as well as the players themselves.
WCG, for instance, is poorly designed and poorly run.
On October 23 2007 14:07 RowdierBob wrote: The progamers have a very large obligation to fans, organisers and sponsors.
Without them progaming does not exist. They should remember this before deciding to tank games like they did.
Evidence suggests that the Korean fans don't care about this tournament much at all, or what happened in the final. If they really had their reputation, credibility or livelihood at stake they wouldn't have done it. You wouldn't see this at an OSL final. Or at least if you did, there would be massive bribery or something else involved, instead of just basic lack of motivation. And once it was discovered, there would be a huge scandal over it.
The lack of scandal over this in Korea comes from the same source as the incident itself. This tournament didn't matter, from the perspective of professional Korean StarCraft gaming.
Edit: And that's the whole problem. If you expect players to play like a tournament matters, then make it matter. Some players will try their hardest regardless (and that's an ideal we should applaud and encourage players to strive for), but most won't. That's just the way people work.
On October 23 2007 14:05 oneofthem wrote: we are not surprised, but we are certainly justified in taking it seriously, since taking it seriously is equivalent to loving the game in a certain way.
Oh, certainly. But I think criticism should be levelled at the situation the players were put in, as well as the players themselves.
WCG, for instance, is poorly designed and poorly run.
that too, but if you are going to take a hard look at the tournament, take a harder look at the players.
why look into how the tournament was run if we are not committed to a certain concept of 'how the game should be played,' the same ideal with which we judge the players. examining the tournament organization then could only increase scrutiny over the players, not excuse them.
On October 23 2007 14:21 oneofthem wrote: why look into how the tournament was run if we are not committed to a certain concept of 'how the game should be played,'
I think we should definitely be committed to a concept of "how the game should be played". I just think all the tournaments (and leagues and other professional events) should be designed in order to encourage that kind of play as much as possible.
To expect the players to manage it by themselves is being too optimistic about human nature, I think. We see time and time again in every sport that most players (and I do stress most, there are always a few exceptions) only exhibit "good sportsmanship" when the conditions encourage it. Fans wanting sportsmanship is a good start, but it's not nearly enough. Just look at all the drug-taking in physical sports as an example of that.
guess how they justify taking drugs, some of them would say 'it is human nature.' they treat themselves as less than responsible human beings. we are not, by talking about this incident, making a comment about the structural problems involved, we are merely sanctioning teh players from a point of view that treat them as free and dignified people who have certain responsibilities entailed with that freedom, the responsibility to behave properly. this is not contradictory to a structural analysis, rather, it is an expression of a particular attitude one might wish to cultivate in the players. if anything, encouraging higher standards and expectations is a good component to an organization philosophy.
^I don't really disagree with you, but I do think it's too much of an unsympathetic point of view. Players like Calm and Hwasin do work incredibly hard. I think we underestimate how much of a strain professional StarCraft puts on them. They were tired and unmotivated. I can understand that.
I don't like that they did it, but I'm not going to say they're horrible people for having done it. I think we have a responsibility, just as they do, and that our responsibility is to make sure that they're put in situations which help them act with good sportsmanship, rather than hindering them.
Is this the tournament that Hwasin returned from just prior to losing to Bisu in the MSL Ro16? Hwasin looked devastated after losing that deciding third game. If he was contemplating that tough task ahead, I can certainly understand why he wouldn't have wanted to play a gruelling best of 5 match the day before (is that when it was?).
I don´t think they gave much thought to what they did.
The told us in the interviews they are like 50:50 in practice games. So one wins some and one loses some. They are friends and team-mates, so money didn´t play a role, winning IEST doesn´t even bring much fame compared to korean leagues. They never played each other in an important game before.
So it felt like practice, and maybe Calm felt Hwasin as the more successful and experienced player deserved to win this. Hwasin did much more for their team, while the 50:50 ratio brought a randomness into the games that didn´t really show this. So in the last 2 games the worthier player had to win without the other one losing his face.
So maybe it was just a spontaneous decision by 2 young players, who haven´t been in this situation before, and who didn´t really think about the consequences of such behavior for their credibility nor what it meant to the chinese organizers and spectators. Honestly, I wouldn´t blame them too much.
am i jealous for that ? i never think the foriengers can beat Korean Top Player in some BO Series Match. Im watching the IEST Final Live becoz im a scer like all the other scer im just want to watch the korean top players show us some incredible match and micro. for this matter,we can do nothing about it ,but hopefully it will never ever happen again in the International Tourney
On October 23 2007 15:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: A tournament is a tournament if you refuse to take it as competition or serious, then they should have never participated.
Um... no... That's like saying you shouldn't take up a job unless you'll be serious about it, but lots of people take on jobs they are not serious about for the money. It's up to the employer to make sure every member of his staff is a member he wants to hire. So if the IEST organisers can't make this a major tournament that everyone cares about, or if they can't even find progamers who will be serious about the tournament, too bad.
What's the problem with throwing games for the sake of your team/country, anyway? Happens in F1 all the time. It's sports, not a circus.
On October 23 2007 15:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: A tournament is a tournament if you refuse to take it as competition or serious, then they should have never participated.
Um... no... That's like saying you shouldn't take up a job unless you'll be serious about it, but lots of people take on jobs they are not serious about for the money. It's up to the employer to make sure every member of his staff is a member he wants to hire. So if the IEST organisers can't make this a major tournament that everyone cares about, or if they can't even find progamers who will be serious about the tournament, too bad.
What's the problem with throwing games for the sake of your team/country, anyway? Happens in F1 all the time. It's sports, not a circus.
I would think if your room/board/plane ticket is being paid for plus given a huge cash prize on top of that, then I would expect that person to take whatever he's supposed to do pretty fucking seriously. The IEST did everything they could to make this a major tournament everyone cares about and even if it didn't get as many viewers it's not THEIR fault the progamers were dirty scumbags. Were they supposed to have done personality checks with every Korean before they invite them?
Just because NBA players sexually assault women all the time, does that make it okay for progamers to do so?
it is impossible to determine whether rigging of the games really took place. its their word against anyone elses. there will be no proof unless someone finds a recording of them talking about the game beforehand saying things like "lets rig the game". and when there is no proof OR confession there will be no punishment. its as easy as that.
and, the fact taht they did chat in gameroom implies(even tho this does not matter since nothing can be proven) that the game was not rigged. had they planned on rigging the game, they wouldnt have done it in chat. mindgames work in chat, not pregame. think about it.
You'd have to be an absolute braindead retard to believe they didn't rig the game, jesus christ with evidence like that.....
Remember when stork lost twice to white_ra? Oh wait he SAID he didn't lose on purpose, I guess it must be true ! No matter the evidence replays. Seriously, it's obvious progamers don't take foreign tournaments seriously. Hwasin and calm should be heavily penalized as far as I'm concerned.
On October 23 2007 20:04 zulu_nation8 wrote: half of this forum is retarded seriously
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches"
You gotta understand something:
It's not what you believe that makes it true.
It's what's TRUE that makes it true.
YOU have to understand something: I did not state at any moment what the ABSOLUTE TRUTH is, I just expressed my personal conviction regarding a conflict where neither of the opposing sides have the final, death blowing argument.
My personal conviction may be or may be not true, only lesser intelligent people may take it as something absolute, when I specifically said it's a personal point of view.
After all, I don't really care that much. But I have the right to be a little idealistic perhaps, and believe in their honesty, even if it's not the case this specific time.
On October 23 2007 15:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: A tournament is a tournament if you refuse to take it as competition or serious, then they should have never participated.
Um... no... That's like saying you shouldn't take up a job unless you'll be serious about it, but lots of people take on jobs they are not serious about for the money. It's up to the employer to make sure every member of his staff is a member he wants to hire. So if the IEST organisers can't make this a major tournament that everyone cares about, or if they can't even find progamers who will be serious about the tournament, too bad.
What's the problem with throwing games for the sake of your team/country, anyway? Happens in F1 all the time. It's sports, not a circus.
When you go in to work at a factory, do you walk past 20,000 fans on the way in, change into a sponsored uniform and then put on makeup for the TV coverage of you packing boxes? Entertainer is not the same as a normal job.
What happens when athletes talk about taking plays off? Their coaches yell at them and we (fans) call them assholes.
I think its pretty well established that the STX duo rigged the grand final matches.
However, i feel it is necessary to point this out ..
1. they did not cheat to get to the finals --> can we all agree on this? they earned their right to play in the finals .. by trying/playing seriously
2. they don't owe anybody anything --> ppl say how unprofessional fixing the games was, TRUE .. it was unprofessional, however .. like i said.. they don't owe anybody anything.. meaning = they aren't obligated. to the fans maybe? but nothing written in stone.
3. STX coach making up bs story to cover players --> was it insulting for taking the fans as idiots? YES.. but step into his shoes for a moment.. he has a LOT of responsibility in managing STX's players and when controversies such as these arise, it is his duty to maintain IMAGE. that is the key point .. he doesn't expect ppl to buy the bs he made up.. he prolly just said it cuz he had to cover shit up quickly and fast.
4. whats done is done --> nothing can turn back time and it didn't happen in korean soil, so kespa has nothing to do with it. no solid evidence = all assumptions .. HIGHLY convincing assumptions.. is all
i wrote this because of another TL member's comments... it was loosely about "don't enter the tournament if you aren't gonna try" ... and frankly that couldn't be more wrong. They both had the skill to get to the finals.. and if they didn't wanna play seriously they don't have to. It is expected that they will play serious/for real games... but they are not obligated to anything by law..
if the tournament organizers find the rigging disturbing and want to prevent this kind of incident from occuring again, they can take the necessary precautions.. i won't propose any possible solutions because im pretty sure they are smarter than me.
bottom line: what they did was ethically wrong, and u can hate them all u want but nothing is gonna change shit. nobody gives a shit about this in korea because koreans know in korea there is no bullshit game fixing because of the fame/prestige of the tournaments. (i read the fighterforum link and read the comments... nobody really gives a fuck)
lets keep it flame free plz ~_~ i just wanted to express my opinions
Basher down on your knees article below written in Chinese: 关于IEST2007决赛说说我的看法 第1 局 monty hall HWASIN 先于12点钟裸2基后用1BB堵住中间的路口可以防止Z PLAYER DRONE于T路口采矿，在T初期MARINE少的情况下被一波RUSH。出到4个MRINE则可完全排除上述被破口的可能即便12点被偷袭则可以LIFT完工的COMMAND CENTER 飞至另一9点钟分矿处运营且主基地左侧有水晶届时有充裕的MARINE，防住后则Z PLAYER 基本无翻盘的可能。HWASIN的开局是无懈可击，这图倒是ZERG有被T于路口采矿（初期无远程兵种防止SCV这一行为）后VULTURE RUSH的可能。所以T是无需探路的但Z必需依靠OVERLORD 侦查以便防止T上述的这种行为。此盘OVERLORD 得知T 1BB放下的时间大胆地极限MACRO。回顾一下VOD吧 T 和 Z的MACRO都是顶尖水平的，是在这图上T V Z 的巅峰对决。这样精彩的比赛是你在韩国职业联赛MSL OSL上都未见到的。这盘T针对Z的策略也选择了极限MACRO并速机械化，注意传统打法遇Z 这种开局3 个矿区无法同时有效地抵制MUTA骚扰的。 于是你们中国星际职业解说应该用PC 为HWASIN AND CALM作一档 MONTY HALL T VS Z终极对决后发布在TEAMLIQUID.NET上。SAVE 下的REPLAY 也能在国际上卖个天价。
第4局 tau cross 野兵营被探到的可能性有多大呢？若未4D 5D就算是探到了的话别说是12 POOL 连9 POOL 都要GG的呀这和MONTY HALL上 Z 前期无远程兵种防止T SCV 采矿破Z的口一样的呀。只不过T 很BS地堵住了一窝小畜生的口，小狗崽子顶着MARINE 们正义的MACHIEN GUN咬BS 2 SCV不断给修理修理Z会有前途哇啦？真是想不明白这种TAU CROSS 上 T V Z绝杀开局咋地在韩国职业MSL OSL没见到过呢？REPLAY 能卖多少RMB呢?
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
Honestly, I think the /w argument is the weakest of the bunch, and if it were just game 5 I'd be closer to the mind tricks thing, since Calm only said what he'd be doing.
Dint u watch all the vod from 1st game to 5th? Folks suppose U were playing BO5 reviewing each previous game with your opponent while the conjunction between the next game starts in chat room. Well HwaSin did scroll up the dialog before 4Th game starts bewared that content shown in box for a very millisecond might be the reviews of 1st game and 2nd game!
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote: The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy? b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content. c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
Honestly, I think the /w argument is the weakest of the bunch, and if it were just game 5 I'd be closer to the mind tricks thing, since Calm only said what he'd be doing.
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches"
You gotta understand something:
It's not what you believe that makes it true.
It's what's TRUE that makes it true.
YOU have to understand something: I did not state at any moment what the ABSOLUTE TRUTH is, I just expressed my personal conviction regarding a conflict where neither of the opposing sides have the final, death blowing argument.
My personal conviction may be or may be not true, only lesser intelligent people may take it as something absolute, when I specifically said it's a personal point of view.
i think what everyone is saying is that if you "refuse to believe" something in light of overwhelming evidence on one side, it's ridiculous, regardless of whether you are entitled to your opinion or not
you saying "i personally refuse to believe they fixed their matches" implies that no matter what evidence is presented or how convincing, you just don't care and won't believe it. this is not the viewpoint of a reasonable, intelligent person.
i ask you what evidence would convince you that they rigged it? hwasin and calm and their coach coming out and saying they rigged it? this will never happen. after the fact people can always claim "mind games" or something of that nature.
On October 24 2007 00:22 Ansible wrote: everybody Calm down, it Hwasin't rigged!!
Sadly that got a laugh out of me. I must be really sick. :/
Anyways, starcraper, I watched the other matches here and game 4 was the only time he went center barracks. They do talk before all the games (too blurry to read) but game 3 was a 15+ minute game ending in mutas/lurkers vs. tanks/mnm so they definitely weren't discussing it in the g4 VOD.
I don't think Calm 12 pooled in game 4 though so I'm not sure what to say about that.
On October 23 2007 23:00 starscrapper wrote: Basher down on your knees article below written in Chinese: 关于IEST2007决赛说说我的看法 第1 局 monty hall HWASIN 先于12点钟裸2基后用1BB堵住中间的路口可以防止Z PLAYER DRONE于T路口采矿，在T初期MARINE少的情况下被一波RUSH。出到4个MRINE则可完全排除上述被破口的可能即便12点被偷袭则可以LIFT完工的COMMAND CENTER 飞至另一9点钟分矿处运营且主基地左侧有水晶届时有充裕的MARINE，防住后则Z PLAYER 基本无翻盘的可能。HWASIN的开局是无懈可击，这图倒是ZERG有被T于路口采矿（初期无远程兵种防止SCV这一行为）后VULTURE RUSH的可能。所以T是无需探路的但Z必需依靠OVERLORD 侦查以便防止T上述的这种行为。此盘OVERLORD 得知T 1BB放下的时间大胆地极限MACRO。回顾一下VOD吧 T 和 Z的MACRO都是顶尖水平的，是在这图上T V Z 的巅峰对决。这样精彩的比赛是你在韩国职业联赛MSL OSL上都未见到的。这盘T针对Z的策略也选择了极限MACRO并速机械化，注意传统打法遇Z 这种开局3 个矿区无法同时有效地抵制MUTA骚扰的。 于是你们中国星际职业解说应该用PC 为HWASIN AND CALM作一档 MONTY HALL T VS Z终极对决后发布在TEAMLIQUID.NET上。SAVE 下的REPLAY 也能在国际上卖个天价。
第4局 tau cross 野兵营被探到的可能性有多大呢？若未4D 5D就算是探到了的话别说是12 POOL 连9 POOL 都要GG的呀这和MONTY HALL上 Z 前期无远程兵种防止T SCV 采矿破Z的口一样的呀。只不过T 很BS地堵住了一窝小畜生的口，小狗崽子顶着MARINE 们正义的MACHIEN GUN咬BS 2 SCV不断给修理修理Z会有前途哇啦？真是想不明白这种TAU CROSS 上 T V Z绝杀开局咋地在韩国职业MSL OSL没见到过呢？REPLAY 能卖多少RMB呢?
There has been so much discussion and argument about this topic. But the one vital question hasn't been asked nor answered as far as I know: Why should Calm give this win to Hwasin?
On October 24 2007 00:22 Ansible wrote: everybody Calm down, it Hwasin't rigged!!
Sadly that got a laugh out of me. I must be really sick. :/
Anyways, starcraper, I watched the other matches here and game 4 was the only time he went center barracks. They do talk before all the games (too blurry to read) but game 3 was a 15+ minute game ending in mutas/lurkers vs. tanks/mnm so they definitely weren't discussing it in the g4 VOD.
I don't think Calm 12 pooled in game 4 though so I'm not sure what to say about that.
Did U Watch 1st game @Monty Hall though. Where did HwaSin place barracket at three entrances of his main? Judge not lest ye hv seen all. Flocks see how U believed the sportsmanship advocated by Sino racists(Do u know what the hell it really is)! Confess now before my name!
On October 24 2007 01:21 Desade wrote: There has been so much discussion and argument about this topic. But the one vital question hasn't been asked nor answered as far as I know: Why should Calm give this win to Hwasin?
Calm having a good reason to give away the win means it's more likely that it was rigged, but Calm not having a good reason doesn't mean it wasn't rigged.
So this question isn't really vital since already all the evidence is pointing toward an obvious rigging of the match.
On October 24 2007 01:21 Desade wrote: There has been so much discussion and argument about this topic. But the one vital question hasn't been asked nor answered as far as I know: Why should Calm give this win to Hwasin?
Calm having a good reason to give away the win means it's more likely that it was rigged, but Calm not having a good reason doesn't mean it wasn't rigged.
So this question isn't really vital since already all the evidence is pointing toward an obvious rigging of the match.
Well, to convict somebody you normally need evidence + a motive as far as I know. The latter is missing yet.
There are several reasons for Calm to give away the win if you use your imagination. Without an official investigation pointing us in one direction or another, its not in great taste to start speculating too much on it at this point (I couldn't help but hint at a potential reason in the OP of this thread, btw... ask yourself why the basketball players point shaved).
Considering that they split the winnings and that they didn't respect the venue, however, there's only one reason not to give away any games: vanity.
There's some chance that they weren't rigging the games-- not a reasonable chance, imo-- but whether we know what reason they had to do it should not play much on our minds when considering evidence. Motive helps a case, but it doesn't make a case.
If you think the evidence isn't convincing, or that its total bunk, or its just a bad coincidence, that's fine. At least you're approaching the problem the right way. But I don't think you should refuse to consider what the evidence has to say because you can't imagine why they'd do it.
Close this thread up. The more U lamb talks the sooner .............. Just keep silent.............................................................Countdown to Ex......
On October 24 2007 01:21 Desade wrote: There has been so much discussion and argument about this topic. But the one vital question hasn't been asked nor answered as far as I know: Why should Calm give this win to Hwasin?
Calm having a good reason to give away the win means it's more likely that it was rigged, but Calm not having a good reason doesn't mean it wasn't rigged.
So this question isn't really vital since already all the evidence is pointing toward an obvious rigging of the match.
Well, to convict somebody you normally need evidence + a motive as far as I know. The latter is missing yet.
These guys aren't on trial for murder. I could give reasons legally why motive really doesn't matter in cases like this one but I don't really think you want to hear it.
Assuming that motive matters, as far as we know the motives can only be mental, like Calm wanting his team captain to win, their Coach telling them to do this, etc. There's no way to prove this because they can just say differently. All we can look at is objectively what happened, and what happened overwhelmingly points toward them rigging it.
Yes there are some possibilities where they don't rig it, but you can always come up with what-ifs. What if Calm was possessed by aliens when he was typing? Is it a reasonable possibility that they were playing an elaborate mind game? I don't think so.
I think they rigged it, they got caught, and they are trying to deny afterwards.
On October 24 2007 00:22 Ansible wrote: everybody Calm down, it Hwasin't rigged!!
Sadly that got a laugh out of me. I must be really sick. :/
Anyways, starcraper, I watched the other matches here and game 4 was the only time he went center barracks. They do talk before all the games (too blurry to read) but game 3 was a 15+ minute game ending in mutas/lurkers vs. tanks/mnm so they definitely weren't discussing it in the g4 VOD.
I don't think Calm 12 pooled in game 4 though so I'm not sure what to say about that.
Did U Watch 1st game @Monty Hall though. Where did HwaSin place barracket at three entrances of his main? Judge not lest ye hv seen all. Flocks see how U believed the sportsmanship advocated by Sino racists(Do u know what the hell it really is)! Confess now before my name!
"center barracks" and a barracks outside your middle min wall on Monty Hall are not even close. Hwasin didn't even float his barracks over or anything - he went double fac.
On October 24 2007 00:22 Ansible wrote: everybody Calm down, it Hwasin't rigged!!
Sadly that got a laugh out of me. I must be really sick. :/
Anyways, starcraper, I watched the other matches here and game 4 was the only time he went center barracks. They do talk before all the games (too blurry to read) but game 3 was a 15+ minute game ending in mutas/lurkers vs. tanks/mnm so they definitely weren't discussing it in the g4 VOD.
I don't think Calm 12 pooled in game 4 though so I'm not sure what to say about that.
Did U Watch 1st game @Monty Hall though. Where did HwaSin place barracket at three entrances of his main? Judge not lest ye hv seen all. Flocks see how U believed the sportsmanship advocated by Sino racists(Do u know what the hell it really is)! Confess now before my name!
"center barracks" and a barracks outside your middle min wall on Monty Hall are not even close. Hwasin didn't even float his barracks over or anything - he went double fac.
Do u speak Korean? Quite different to Egnlish? One toughts and the way of perception is based on his or her mother language.When the barrier of Babble is collapsed every nation appears truely what they are....... "centre barracket" May U answer me at which 3 entraces of HwaSin's main baracket was placed?
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but didn't Hwasin have to fly back the day of this tournament (or after?) to play his MSL games? Maybe Calm's motivation was to make it easy on him so he had a better shot against Bisu (less fatigue, etc).
On October 24 2007 00:22 Ansible wrote: everybody Calm down, it Hwasin't rigged!!
Sadly that got a laugh out of me. I must be really sick. :/
Anyways, starcraper, I watched the other matches here and game 4 was the only time he went center barracks. They do talk before all the games (too blurry to read) but game 3 was a 15+ minute game ending in mutas/lurkers vs. tanks/mnm so they definitely weren't discussing it in the g4 VOD.
I don't think Calm 12 pooled in game 4 though so I'm not sure what to say about that.
Did U Watch 1st game @Monty Hall though. Where did HwaSin place barracket at three entrances of his main? Judge not lest ye hv seen all. Flocks see how U believed the sportsmanship advocated by Sino racists(Do u know what the hell it really is)! Confess now before my name!
"center barracks" and a barracks outside your middle min wall on Monty Hall are not even close. Hwasin didn't even float his barracks over or anything - he went double fac.
Do u speak Korean? Quite different to Egnlish? One toughts and the way of perception is based on his or her mother language.When the barrier of Babble is collapsed every nation appears truely what they are....... "centre barracket" May U answer me at which 3 entraces of HwaSin's main baracket was placed?
Ok, so your retarded theory is that they decided to talk about Hwasin's building placement in game 1, before game 4. Even though Calm obviously didn't 12 pool on Monty Hall and Hwasin's barracks had zero influence on the game because he just floated it back into his base and went 2 factories instead.
On October 24 2007 00:22 Ansible wrote: everybody Calm down, it Hwasin't rigged!!
Sadly that got a laugh out of me. I must be really sick. :/
Anyways, starcraper, I watched the other matches here and game 4 was the only time he went center barracks. They do talk before all the games (too blurry to read) but game 3 was a 15+ minute game ending in mutas/lurkers vs. tanks/mnm so they definitely weren't discussing it in the g4 VOD.
I don't think Calm 12 pooled in game 4 though so I'm not sure what to say about that.
Did U Watch 1st game @Monty Hall though. Where did HwaSin place barracket at three entrances of his main? Judge not lest ye hv seen all. Flocks see how U believed the sportsmanship advocated by Sino racists(Do u know what the hell it really is)! Confess now before my name!
"center barracks" and a barracks outside your middle min wall on Monty Hall are not even close. Hwasin didn't even float his barracks over or anything - he went double fac.
Do u speak Korean? Quite different to Egnlish? One toughts and the way of perception is based on his or her mother language.When the barrier of Babble is collapsed every nation appears truely what they are....... "centre barracket" May U answer me at which 3 entraces of HwaSin's main baracket was placed?
Ok, so your retarded theory is that they decided to talk about Hwasin's building placement in game 1, before game 4. Even though Calm obviously didn't 12 pool on Monty Hall and Hwasin's barracks had zero influence on the game because he just floated it back into his base and went 2 factories instead.
On October 23 2007 23:00 starscrapper wrote: Basher down on your knees article below written in Chinese: 关于IEST2007决赛说说我的看法 第1 局 monty hall HWASIN 先于12点钟裸2基后用1BB堵住中间的路口可以防止Z PLAYER DRONE于T路口采矿，在T初期MARINE少的情况下被一波RUSH。出到4个MRINE则可完全排除上述被破口的可能即便12点被偷袭则可以LIFT完工的COMMAND CENTER 飞至另一9点钟分矿处运营且主基地左侧有水晶届时有充裕的MARINE，防住后则Z PLAYER 基本无翻盘的可能。HWASIN的开局是无懈可击，这图倒是ZERG有被T于路口采矿（初期无远程兵种防止SCV这一行为）后VULTURE RUSH的可能。所以T是无需探路的但Z必需依靠OVERLORD 侦查以便防止T上述的这种行为。此盘OVERLORD 得知T 1BB放下的时间大胆地极限MACRO。回顾一下VOD吧 T 和 Z的MACRO都是顶尖水平的，是在这图上T V Z 的巅峰对决。这样精彩的比赛是你在韩国职业联赛MSL OSL上都未见到的。这盘T针对Z的策略也选择了极限MACRO并速机械化，注意传统打法遇Z 这种开局3 个矿区无法同时有效地抵制MUTA骚扰的。 于是你们中国星际职业解说应该用PC 为HWASIN AND CALM作一档 MONTY HALL T VS Z终极对决后发布在TEAMLIQUID.NET上。SAVE 下的REPLAY 也能在国际上卖个天价。
第4局 tau cross 野兵营被探到的可能性有多大呢？若未4D 5D就算是探到了的话别说是12 POOL 连9 POOL 都要GG的呀这和MONTY HALL上 Z 前期无远程兵种防止T SCV 采矿破Z的口一样的呀。只不过T 很BS地堵住了一窝小畜生的口，小狗崽子顶着MARINE 们正义的MACHIEN GUN咬BS 2 SCV不断给修理修理Z会有前途哇啦？真是想不明白这种TAU CROSS 上 T V Z绝杀开局咋地在韩国职业MSL OSL没见到过呢？REPLAY 能卖多少RMB呢?
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote: I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches"
You gotta understand something:
It's not what you believe that makes it true.
It's what's TRUE that makes it true.
YOU have to understand something: I did not state at any moment what the ABSOLUTE TRUTH is, I just expressed my personal conviction regarding a conflict where neither of the opposing sides have the final, death blowing argument.
My personal conviction may be or may be not true, only lesser intelligent people may take it as something absolute, when I specifically said it's a personal point of view.
You still don't get it?
Your faith-based conviction means NOTHING in the face of glaring evidence.
The summary in Chinese was written by Toodoming who was one of the commentators at the match. He basically said he saw the text and that it was clearly rigged, and how it was stupid Hwasin used the scv bug but didn't get punished. Anyways unforunately this thread again degrades into a believer vs non-believer thread. Mind as well close this
On October 24 2007 04:36 zulu_nation8 wrote: The summary in Chinese was written by Toodoming who was one of the commentators at the match. He basically said he saw the text and that it was clearly rigged, and how it was stupid Hwasin used the scv bug but didn't get punished. Anyways unforunately this thread again degrades into a believer vs non-believer thread. Mind as well close this
Which SCV bug, the cargo one that made forgg banned against nal_ra third game?
"at the end the replay tells hwasin vs jaystar jaystar was use all in dt rush and one goon block ramp jaystar was gonna 2-1 hwasin but hwasin use gasbug to scout so it is true"
On October 24 2007 04:36 zulu_nation8 wrote: The summary in Chinese was written by Toodoming who was one of the commentators at the match. He basically said he saw the text and that it was clearly rigged, and how it was stupid Hwasin used the scv bug but didn't get punished. Anyways unforunately this thread again degrades into a believer vs non-believer thread. Mind as well close this
Which SCV bug, the cargo one that made forgg banned against nal_ra third game?
What exactly does the bug do? scv passing units blocking ramp without having scouted the base?
yea, shift click on geyser multiple times then right click inside base and you can pass by anything blocking ramp like as if you had vision of minerals inside the base
On October 24 2007 04:36 zulu_nation8 wrote: The summary in Chinese was written by Toodoming who was one of the commentators at the match. He basically said he saw the text and that it was clearly rigged, and how it was stupid Hwasin used the scv bug but didn't get punished. Anyways unforunately this thread again degrades into a believer vs non-believer thread. Mind as well close this
Which SCV bug, the cargo one that made forgg banned against nal_ra third game?
What exactly does the bug do? scv passing units blocking ramp without having scouted the base?
if there was a goon blocking the ramp and the scv passed it anyway he did some kind of illegal(by most standards) trick to get in, whether it was the return cargo+move thing or the gas trick.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5613/hwasinfaketw4.jpg)
, and are you saying the game was rigged or not? Confusing
), their best player (i think), but it's tired and he can't compete with a more rested Calm. So, since it's only IEST ....
