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United States20667 Posts
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy?
b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content.
c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
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Ok my final decision is that games where not rigged.
GG no RE!
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United States22883 Posts
On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote:
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy?
b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content.
c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w. Honestly, I think the /w argument is the weakest of the bunch, and if it were just game 5 I'd be closer to the mind tricks thing, since Calm only said what he'd be doing.
Game 4 is the most fishy to me (Here's the pic since no one has posted the g4 one yet.) I'm not sure what the last line says but the first 3 tell exactly what happened during the game.
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On October 23 2007 10:05 []Dlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 09:38 []Dlayer wrote:On October 23 2007 09:30 Jibba wrote:
It seems unlikely that the Koreans will do anything at this point, but have any of the Chinese officials said anything? What if STX were banned from competing in IEST from now on. Yes, Koreans look down on foreign tournaments, but do they look down on foreign $30,000 paychecks? I'm curious too. What are Chinese official/IEST saying about this issue? bump
BUMP BUMP
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On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote:
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy?
b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content.
c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w.
I uhh... I completely disagree with you.
There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional?
Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers.
Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would.
Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it."
It is possible, is it not?
Edit: typo.
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Seriously, i'm more pissed off about STX's coach's comment than the rigging game. It implied a complete lack of respect for non-korean e-sport.
This year's IEST sucked hard and now this? I have a suspicion that we won't see another IEST next year.
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The whisper argument is perfectly fine. The All-Star games are purely for fun, no money or championships involved. It's made to have a casual atmosphere where players are allowed to speak out and tease each other. What happened between Hwasin and Calm was during a tournament finals. Out of all the MSL FPVods I've seen, this has never happened before. The Koreans who went to Blizzcon didn't fuck around and whisper each other before the matches started.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 23 2007 06:20 minus_human wrote:
I personally refuse to believe they "fixed their matches"
It sounds absurde and it makes little sense, however the strongest argument is the Korean mentality, they're too competitive for this.
I don't see how it would matter too much, since they're on the same team, and both Koreans. It's not like China had a chance for 1st place and they got cheated or anything.
While if this is true, then it would be very bad sportmanship, and a little bad mannered on the behalf of the Koreans, I don't think KeSPa or anyone should have a very powerful reaction to this.
a competitive mentality would show competitive behavior, and various other factors. that you believe they were in a competitive mentality does not make it so. look at what the coach said, as an effort to explain away the situation, 'the game was a meaningless game.' oh, who would think of that as an excuse in a hypercompetitive culture?
as for why it matters, first, it shows these players are not above fixing games. and then, it shows a disrespect for the tournament. we would be expecting too much for the gamers to treat The Game that seriously, (or maybe not) but this at least shatters some images and idols.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 23 2007 12:03 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote:
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy?
b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content.
c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w. I uhh... I completely disagree with you. There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional? Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers. Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would. Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it." It is possible, is it not? Edit: typo. the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous.
feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter.
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For an American like me, the whispered taunt argument is hard to swallow. I'm sure their must be studies somewhere that show that public taunts cause more psychological damage, and therefore give more advantage than hidden ones. I'm not very aware of korean cultural taboos, so maybe its not cool to insult your opponent publicly there. But Muhammad Ali was pretty savvy at creating public appeal through his taunts. The guy held press conferences to taunt opponents like George Foreman ("If you dream of beating me, you'd better wake up and apologize", "Now you see me, now you don't. George thinks he will, but I know he won't"), he didn't pass Foreman notes under the table.
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What ever it was, it was a dumb thing to do at the least. I hope the coach now teaches them proper manners and conduct.
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On October 23 2007 12:10 ArC_man wrote:
The whisper argument is perfectly fine. The All-Star games are purely for fun, no money or championships involved. It's made to have a casual atmosphere where players are allowed to speak out and tease each other. What happened between Hwasin and Calm was during a tournament finals. Out of all the MSL FPVods I've seen, this has never happened before. The Koreans who went to Blizzcon didn't fuck around and whisper each other before the matches started.
Because as I, Hwasin, Calm and the coach said, they were taking it 'lightly' unlike the MSL. And yes, the Koreans do fuck around at other non-korean events, like WCG (Stork throwing games, obs/turret bug, etc..)
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On October 23 2007 12:24 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 12:03 Nintu wrote:On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote:
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy?
b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content.
c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w. I uhh... I completely disagree with you. There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional? Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers. Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would. Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it." It is possible, is it not? Edit: typo. the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous. feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter.
You mis-understood. I never claimed it was the only logical explanation, just that it was possible, and if you examine the past behavior of pro-gamers at international events, that players whisper eachother all the time and play mind games(including talk about build orders and strategies), that this explanation is quite believable.
It is my personal opinion, that these players are probably only guilty of taking the event lightly, which they admitted to.
Basically, as cliche as it is, innocent until proven guilty. And until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which I don't believe it has been, I reserve my judgment.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 23 2007 12:28 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 12:10 ArC_man wrote:
The whisper argument is perfectly fine. The All-Star games are purely for fun, no money or championships involved. It's made to have a casual atmosphere where players are allowed to speak out and tease each other. What happened between Hwasin and Calm was during a tournament finals. Out of all the MSL FPVods I've seen, this has never happened before. The Koreans who went to Blizzcon didn't fuck around and whisper each other before the matches started. Because as I, Hwasin, Calm and the coach said, they were taking it 'lightly' unlike the MSL. And yes, the Koreans do fuck around at other non-korean events, like WCG (Stork throwing games, obs/turret bug, etc..) hahahah. so they were taking it so lightly that they resorted to inventive mindgames to gain an edge, presumably, or simply to create some lulz by trolling the public and fucking over their image by playing exactly like how they told each other they would.
if they came out and said, LOL TROLLED, great lulz. i'd be more inclined to believe them and pass it off with a chuckle. but look, what you offered up as a rationalization does not make sense. if they took the tournament so lightly, why did they resort to hidden mindgames that the evil matler is reputed to engage in to gain an edge and prove his absolute badass competitiveness. did they also take their public image lightly when they did everything they could to appear suspicious.
here's the deal, if they do not come out in a few days and say, LOL EPIC TROLL!!! they colluded.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 23 2007 12:37 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 12:24 oneofthem wrote:On October 23 2007 12:03 Nintu wrote:On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote:
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy?
b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content.
c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w. I uhh... I completely disagree with you. There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional? Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers. Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would. Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it." It is possible, is it not? Edit: typo. the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous. feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter. You mis-understood. I never claimed it was the only logical explanation, just that it was possible, and if you examine the past behavior of pro-gamers at international events, that players whisper eachother all the time and play mind games(including talk about build orders and strategies), that this explanation is quite believable. It is my personal opinion, that these players are probably only guilty of taking the event lightly, which they admitted to. Basically, as cliche as it is, innocent until proven guilty. And until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which I don't believe it has been, I reserve my judgment. i did not misunderstand. why offer a rationalization when there is no perceived benefit. rationalizatino and logic are tools that we would use if we wish to maybe convince people or establish a reasonable position. i am simply saying, you are not doing a good job at it.
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On October 23 2007 12:28 Nintu wrote:
Because as I, Hwasin, Calm and the coach said, they were taking it 'lightly' unlike the MSL. And yes, the Koreans do fuck around at other non-korean events, like WCG (Stork throwing games, obs/turret bug, etc..)
The fact that they weren't even taking the games seriously, even though it was the finals (with a lot of money involved from sponsors and fans) already warrants a full apology. They are professionals, they are expected to act professional. This entire event has shown how little class the whole STX team has.
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On October 23 2007 12:39 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 12:37 Nintu wrote:On October 23 2007 12:24 oneofthem wrote:On October 23 2007 12:03 Nintu wrote:On October 23 2007 11:33 Last Romantic wrote:
The main difference is that other trash-talking was public. Chat to all.
The fact that they whispered shows they were trying to hide something. That leads to the conclusion that they were doing something they thought was wrong - or why bother hiding?
In other lobby trash talking, it was always out in the open. Reach, YellOw, Chalrenge, BoxeR have all said random crap in the lobby [I'm sure many other players have as well] for both mind game//entertainment.
The differences are key.
a) /w instead of just to all. why need of secrecy?
b) detail of discussion. most cases are just silly. 1sunk all drone// 2sunk no ling is pretty specific. the usual trashtalk is less serious content.
c) not any threat tone. there wasn't any "I'll beat you". Just straight up saying what they're doing the next game.
I think simply the fact that they were using /w is enough evidence to say they were rigging it. There is no other reason to use /w. I uhh... I completely disagree with you. There's no other reason to use whispers? It's this giant tournament, TONS of people watching. They can't just spam chat with "lolz, I beat u wit 1 hnad bhind my bak." or else the tournament organizers will get pissed? Or else they appear unprofessional? Players messaging eachother happens "all the time", in the all-star event, they were allowed and encouraged to do this using regular chat to make it more enjoyable and interesting, but normally, they do it through whispers. Imagine yourself in a tournament with a friend. Would you spam the chat with stuff like that, or would you PM him? Personally, I'd PM him, as I think most people would. Also, have you ever been really cocky and told your friend "I'll go X-build and still kick your ass =P"? Be honest. I know I have. It messes him up because now he's going to wonder "Wait, is he actually going to try that? Last time he said that, he actually did it." It is possible, is it not? Edit: typo. the whisper argument should be understood along with the corroborating observed behavior that established the theory that they cheated. this includes the matching chat message and actual gameplay. you are not convinced by the argument because you are still operating within your peculiar rationalization. if you were to examine your theory as a whole, it would be ridiculous. feel free to challenge this by completely outlining your theory on this matter. You mis-understood. I never claimed it was the only logical explanation, just that it was possible, and if you examine the past behavior of pro-gamers at international events, that players whisper eachother all the time and play mind games(including talk about build orders and strategies), that this explanation is quite believable. It is my personal opinion, that these players are probably only guilty of taking the event lightly, which they admitted to. Basically, as cliche as it is, innocent until proven guilty. And until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which I don't believe it has been, I reserve my judgment. i did not misunderstand. why offer a rationalization when there is no perceived benefit. rationalizatino and logic are tools that we would use if we wish to maybe convince people or establish a reasonable position. i am simply saying, you are not doing a good job at it.
Well, your argument is "No", which isn't so much of an argument, as it is an opinion. And your opinion, noted.
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Calm is just a pussy, Hwasin is just a dickface that played along.
If hes tired of playing, get a fucking 3-0 and go home; instead he got 1-2 by his minor, and wins illegitimately.
Mind trick my ass, very nice cover up, Calm.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 23 2007 12:45 Nintu wrote:
no seems like you left something off there.
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EPT
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