EPT
[ASL14] Ro8 Day 2
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
masoka82
Spain594 Posts
| ||
|
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
 | ||
|
TornadoSteve
1088 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 14 2022 16:33 RowdierBob wrote: Will be interesting to see which map Bisu vetoes. I think the rule is each player picks a map and the last one is random. Looks like Bisu picked Butter and Nemesis while Soulkey picked Vermeer and Sylphid, and the 5th game is on Odyssey. No idea why Soulkey didn't pick Allegro and Arkanoid - the two maps that all Protoss players would ban. | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
| ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
heart: bisu | ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
 Young Bisu vs young Soulkey  | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
| ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
don't know why bisu stuck with one cannon | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4226 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 14 2022 19:23 RowdierBob wrote: That was awful from Bisu. Why awful? He didn't do anything wrong given the intel he had. And there was no way to get more intel. There was one heated discussion a while ago about the hydra build in PvZ. The op essentially summarized it perfectly: when Zerg goes for hydra bust, the Protoss can only be as good as the Zerg allows him to be. | ||
|
Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
Edit: or not :D | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
On September 14 2022 19:29 TMNT wrote: Why awful? He didn't do anything wrong given the intel he had. And there was no way to get more intel. There was one heated discussion a while ago about the hydra build in PvZ. The op essentially summarized it perfectly: when Zerg goes for hydra bust, the Protoss can only be as good as the Zerg allows him to be. The reaction to the bust. SK nuked the goon and got on top of the cannon before Bisu reacted with his zeals and probes. He had no chance after that. Could’ve held with better probe and zeal reaction. | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
| ||
|
Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
On September 14 2022 19:48 RowdierBob wrote: The reaction to the bust. SK nuked the goon and got on top of the cannon before Bisu reacted with his zeals and probes. He had no chance after that. Could’ve held with better probe and zeal reaction. You need to react in one second, literally. And he still loses, 1 cannon is 95% a loss. | ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 14 2022 19:48 RowdierBob wrote: The reaction to the bust. SK nuked the goon and got on top of the cannon before Bisu reacted with his zeals and probes. He had no chance after that. Could’ve held with better probe and zeal reaction. Could have reacted faster but he would have lost anyway. One cannon vs 3 hatch hydra = instant loss no matter what. Two cannons = you get to hang there for a bit but will still lose. Three cannons and we have a game. | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
yhat's why he ll lose i think....  | ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
| ||
|
Glioburd
France1911 Posts
On September 14 2022 20:26 prosatan wrote: ppp ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/BCmWjNt/ppp.jpg) | ||
|
prosatan
Romania8495 Posts
2-2 and i got to go please a bit of LR and Bisu please play a bit safe and win ! | ||
|
Motivate
2860 Posts
| ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
head: soulkey hydra busts heart: long macro slugfest | ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
| ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
On September 14 2022 20:38 TMNT wrote: This is somehow panning out exactly like the quarterfinals Rain vs Soulkey last season. Soulkey won on the maps picked by Rain, and vice versa. Wonder if Soulkey can change his fate on the decider game this time compared to last. History has a funny way of repeating itself. But also has a funny way of not repeating itself. | ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
On September 14 2022 20:38 TMNT wrote: This is somehow panning out exactly like the quarterfinals Rain vs Soulkey last season. Soulkey won on the maps picked by Rain, and vice versa. Wonder if Soulkey can change his fate on the decider game this time compared to last. he went for 12 hatch so it's already different, right? | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
whylessness
United States376 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
Well, maybe I'm not such a Soulkey fan anymore Didn't see all the games, but it seemed like SK could win only by cheeses. | ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
that lost him the game.. and the attack at soulkeys natural also.. was weird aaaaand the dark archon was bad because of no mutas sad 8/ but nice series | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
| ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
| ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 14 2022 20:59 RowdierBob wrote: Death, taxes and Bisu finding a way to bottle it. You seem to keep reading the game wrong. At what point during that last game was he ahead to be able to bottle it? Yeah he had 3 bases and 4 gases but if the supply is equal Protoss is never ahead. I might be a little Bisu biased but this series really highlights how ZvP is a Zerg favored match up. Hydra bust and 9 Pool speed all day long. | ||
|
staatbauhaus
99 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
No doubt Soulkey deserves it, but this is not the result I was hoping for. But it's ok, I still got one of my favorites in the tournament. | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
On September 14 2022 21:08 TMNT wrote: You seem to keep reading the game wrong. At what point during that last game was he ahead to be able to bottle it? Yeah he had 3 bases and 4 gases but if the supply is equal Protoss is never ahead. I might be a little Bisu biased but this series really highlights how ZvP is a Zerg favored match up. Hydra bust and 9 Pool speed all day long. It’s in reference to the series overall and Bisu’s history going way back. Chill out mate. Stop always trying to pick fights with ppl in these threads. | ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 14 2022 22:35 RowdierBob wrote: It’s in reference to the series overall and Bisu’s history going way back. Chill out mate. Stop always trying to pick fights with ppl in these threads. Then it's a bad reference isn't it? He was at no point leading the series. Also I'm not sure how correcting something wrong can be considered picking fight? | ||
|
JoinTheRain
Bulgaria409 Posts
| ||
|
J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
On September 14 2022 22:41 TMNT wrote: Then it's a bad reference isn't it? He was at no point leading the series. Also I'm not sure how correcting something wrong can be considered picking fight? You aren't correcting anyone. The fact that you think the comment author needs 'correcting' is indicative of the generally condescending nature of your input here. If you don't get the reference that doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect. Your default tone is cynical, abrasive, and confrontational - and it simply isn't warranted here, in my opinion. | ||
|
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
Sorry for the offtopic. Still rooting for SK to beat Royal! | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
At least Soulkey showed an excellent game 2 and 5. Even though game 2 was a loss, those two games showed why he was deserving of the round of 4. | ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
| ||
|
moktira
Ireland1545 Posts
| ||
|
bochs
114 Posts
On September 15 2022 03:57 outscar wrote: Dark day for Bisu. SK was solid but wasn't impressive, especially on late game. He snatched 2 easy victories with ling rushes. And Bisu like how hard is to cover 1 cannon? Well that's because Bisu was too stingy to spend resources on defense, he could have built cannons and easily defended ling rushes, but then it would have delayed his own timings. In the end it's his own choice. To be fair, SK had to punish Bisu's aggressive opening, otherwise Bisu would have gotten away with an advantage early on. | ||
|
Optimate
249 Posts
On September 15 2022 05:11 moktira wrote: You'd think I'd be used to being disappointed by Bisu now, but each tournament I still hope he can pull it off and get disappointed all over again. Basically like Mini. | ||
|
orth0dox
28 Posts
On September 14 2022 22:42 JoinTheRain wrote: Ah, good job, SK, I wish him luck vs Royal who's rather beastly now. And I feel it's somehow always fitting when a scammer gets eliminated. I know he didn't lose because of his dirty scamming nature but because he player worse this Bo5 yet I'm still content with the result. I wouldn't suffer if Bisu never gets into ASL and slips into irrelevance. What is this about? It's something new to me, where do i look? | ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey745 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 14 2022 23:37 J. Corsair wrote: You aren't correcting anyone. The fact that you think the comment author needs 'correcting' is indicative of the generally condescending nature of your input here. If you don't get the reference that doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect. Your default tone is cynical, abrasive, and confrontational - and it simply isn't warranted here, in my opinion. Look. What he said is factually incorrect. Bisu didn't have a lead at any point in the series therefore could not "bottle it". That much is beyond debatable, whether I "get" his "reference" or not. You don't have to like my tone but saying he read the game wrong is no more cynical than saying something negative about a player. Neither is a personal attack or offensive. Why is the latter commonly accepted but the former not? | ||
|
Spider-Mine
United States86 Posts
On September 15 2022 14:36 TMNT wrote: Look. What he said is factually incorrect. Bisu didn't have a lead at any point in the series therefore could not "bottle it". That much is beyond debatable, whether I "get" his "reference" or not. You don't have to like my tone but saying he read the game wrong is no more cynical than saying something negative about a player. Neither is a personal attack or offensive. Why is the latter commonly accepted but the former not? Man get out of your feelings over the results. You totally missed what J Corsair was saying. You don’t have to defend Bisu, the game is over, well played to SoulKey. Quit trying to change peoples minds about how they feel over the game. If he thinks Bisu “ bottled” it, so what if he’s right or wrong. It’s how he feels. Relax, Bisu will be back again for the next ASL. To probably “ bottle” it next series.  | ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 15 2022 15:57 Spider-Mine wrote: Man get out of your feelings over the results. You totally missed what J Corsair was saying. You don’t have to defend Bisu, the game is over, well played to SoulKey. Quit trying to change peoples minds about how they feel over the game. If he thinks Bisu “ bottled” it, so what if he’s right or wrong. It’s how he feels. Relax, Bisu will be back again for the next ASL. To probably “ bottle” it next series. It's a public forum and if someone doesn't share your opinion there could be a debate. My words are respectful enough. There wouldn't be second post if he wasn't being so sensitive about it and accusing me of picking fight. I once made a comment about a Bonyth's game and there were a bunch of people bashing me with much harsher words than what I used in this thread. Where was "it's how he feels" on that occasion? By your logic this forum would just be a bunch of comments unrelated to each other then. | ||
|
moktira
Ireland1545 Posts
Similar but at least Mini won an ASL recently! | ||
|
reincremate
China2216 Posts
On September 15 2022 17:03 moktira wrote: Similar but at least Mini won an ASL recently! Mini vacillates between greatness and floundering, while Bisu reaches the cusp of greatness before floundering. | ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
On September 15 2022 17:03 moktira wrote: Similar but at least Mini won an ASL recently! Yeah Mini made 2 finals in a row | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On September 15 2022 14:36 TMNT wrote: Look. What he said is factually incorrect. Bisu didn't have a lead at any point in the series therefore could not "bottle it". That much is beyond debatable, whether I "get" his "reference" or not. You don't have to like my tone but saying he read the game wrong is no more cynical than saying something negative about a player. Neither is a personal attack or offensive. Why is the latter commonly accepted but the former not? I don't think you're right man. I agree with you that he was never ahead in this series and even in that last game he was always on the back foot (altho he could've done better with the 3 gas templar advantage), but I think bottle it could also refer to just him being a better player and bottling it against a player who is by many probably considered the worse player and someone he should be able to beat in this setting. | ||
|
JoinTheRain
Bulgaria409 Posts
On September 15 2022 10:34 orth0dox wrote: What is this about? It's something new to me, where do i look? Flash and Bisu, among other people, tried to scam their afreeca followers by inciting the people to invest into some shady crypto. Ofc, Flash and Bisu played the fools, saying bunch of nonsense that they didn't know it's a scam while it became clear that not only they knew, but they were quite pro-active in the scheme because it would've been lucrative for them. Just search the forum, I'm sure it's there. | ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 15 2022 18:45 Kaolla wrote: I don't think you're right man. I agree with you that he was never ahead in this series and even in that last game he was always on the back foot (altho he could've done better with the 3 gas templar advantage), but I think bottle it could also refer to just him being a better player and bottling it against a player who is by many probably considered the worse player and someone he should be able to beat in this setting. Soulkey is the better player. He's literally no. 1 on spon games and more importantly has 66% record vs Bisu and above 60% vs any other Protoss. Anyone thinking Bisu should beat Soulkey in an obvious way is probably disconnected to the modern Korean BW scene. | ||
|
evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
On September 15 2022 18:50 JoinTheRain wrote: Flash and Bisu, among other people, tried to scam their afreeca followers by inciting the people to invest into some shady crypto. Ofc, Flash and Bisu played the fools, saying bunch of nonsense that they didn't know it's a scam while it became clear that not only they knew, but they were quite pro-active in the scheme because it would've been lucrative for them. Just search the forum, I'm sure it's there. if you searched the forum then you would know that theres zero evidence for your claim | ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
Among them only Flash mentioned the coin once in his stream, but he never encouraged anyone to invest. Bisu and others didn't even speak about it once. Among the Korean community, some have already moved on but some would still try to criminalize them. And foreigners, most didn't even look up the incident properly and just believed whatever they were told. | ||
|
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On September 15 2022 20:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: if you searched the forum then you would know that theres zero evidence for your claim Correct. The final verdict was that they were just quite ignorant. But I actually thought the original post was referring to the Soulkey incident. He was scammed out of a ton of money and a luxury car buying scheme. Because of this, he skipped playing ASL so he could practice hard and earn money from the more lucrative spon matches. I'm glad Soulkey was able overcome his debt problems enough to show us how good he is in ASL. If he wins this ASL, he will be the second player to win both a GSL and ASL. | ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
| ||
|
Lazyer
United States365 Posts
On the plus side, we got to see a Dark Archon from not-Best! | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Bisu is really cool, and I also want to see him win an ASL, but it just isn’t the case that he’s miles ahead of the competition and has a high likelihood to win once he’s in the Ro16. If you’re being generous, his likelihood of converting a Ro16 appearance into a gold medal is maybe 10%. (That is, a percentage bigger than 1/16, but not by that much.) | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
Seems like every possible result is an 'upset' these days. Which actually shows how competitive ASL is. | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4226 Posts
On September 14 2022 21:08 TMNT wrote: You seem to keep reading the game wrong. At what point during that last game was he ahead to be able to bottle it? Yeah he had 3 bases and 4 gases but if the supply is equal Protoss is never ahead. I might be a little Bisu biased but this series really highlights how ZvP is a Zerg favored match up. Hydra bust and 9 Pool speed all day long. couldn't agree more with your last statement.. it's kind of ridiculous how much harder the matchup is for one side.. and it was like this as far as I can remember, too. it sucks | ||
|
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On September 16 2022 22:55 M3t4PhYzX wrote: couldn't agree more with your last statement.. it's kind of ridiculous how much harder the matchup is for one side.. and it was like this as far as I can remember, too. it sucks I would personally sponsor a map where both main and natural are on the high ground and the natural has a ramp. :D | ||
|
fgt4w
23 Posts
 Crossing FieldWas used in ASL4 | ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 16 2022 22:55 M3t4PhYzX wrote: couldn't agree more with your last statement.. it's kind of ridiculous how much harder the matchup is for one side.. and it was like this as far as I can remember, too. it sucks I don't think it's harder for Protoss in the sense that it's required more skills like apm, micro or multitasking ability. It's just the matchup has more than one way for the Zerg to get a "cheap" win. And that refers specifically to the hydra bust, and to a lesser extent, the ling all-in. In those situations the Protoss can do no wrong given the information they are allowed to gather, but still lose. Like when the Zerg pulls what Soulkey pulled in game 1 vs Bisu, there is literally no chance for Protoss to react in time unless he does a blind counter. Now if it was Bisu vs some low level Zerg, Bisu wouldn't lose because he would just build 3 cannons just for safety, take a delay to his timing, and still win the game later because he's much better than the Zerg. But when the two players are on the same level and every bit of resources and every second matters, Protoss can't throw away resources like that. Obviously the best possible solution is to have the natural on a high ground or in the backyard like Revolver, Ringing Bloom, but it seems to mess with other matchups as well and those maps are never considered standard. | ||
|
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On September 17 2022 01:08 TMNT wrote: I don't think it's harder for Protoss in the sense that it's required more skills like apm, micro or multitasking ability. It's just the matchup has more than one way for the Zerg to get a "cheap" win. And that refers specifically to the hydra bust, and to a lesser extent, the ling all-in. In those situations the Protoss can do no wrong given the information they are allowed to gather, but still lose. Like when the Zerg pulls what Soulkey pulled in game 1 vs Bisu, there is literally no chance for Protoss to react in time unless he does a blind counter. Now if it was Bisu vs some low level Zerg, Bisu wouldn't lose because he would just build 3 cannons just for safety, take a delay to his timing, and still win the game later because he's much better than the Zerg. But when the two players are on the same level and every bit of resources and every second matters, Protoss can't throw away resources like that. Obviously the best possible solution is to have the natural on a high ground or in the backyard like Revolver, Ringing Bloom, but it seems to mess with other matchups as well and those maps are never considered standard. Imagine a standard map, but the natural had neutral buildings are blocking all but one hole. Would be nice if the gateway and forge didn't have to be sacrificed to protect the entrance. The buildings can be destroyed to open the entrance up as needed. | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
There's still hope for Aiur! I'll be rooting for Snow next. Thanks to him, two pesky Zergs have already been eliminated. I still do feel PvZ is tougher for Protoss. But except for Arkanoid, this season hasn't really been spoiled by imba-ness. Both mini and Rain has shown how Protoss can really keep up with Zergs at the highest level. I have no issue with a top Zerg taking out another top Protoss even if Zerg has an edge. It's only when a middle-tier Zergs keep hydra-busting top Protosses that spoils my viewing experience. | ||
|
angry_maia
327 Posts
On September 17 2022 02:28 RKC wrote: Generally, I'm pro-Toss and anti-Zerg, but I thought SK played better by a slight margin. His ling control and multitasking was superb. Bisu also played well to give a close nail-biting series. Sad that one has to lose, but SK deserved the win. There's still hope for Aiur! I'll be rooting for Snow next. Thanks to him, two pesky Zergs have already been eliminated. I still do feel PvZ is tougher for Protoss. But except for Arkanoid, this season hasn't really been spoiled by imba-ness. Both mini and Rain has shown how Protoss can really keep up with Zergs at the highest level. I have no issue with a top Zerg taking out another top Protoss even if Zerg has an edge. It's only when a middle-tier Zergs keep hydra-busting top Protosses that spoils my viewing experience. I too am pro-toss (heh) but I think there are some cases where the top tier tosses just chern out really bad performances. For example, last season, when Snow just botched up getting lurker contained against ggaemo twice. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1711 Posts
| ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
On September 17 2022 06:20 angry_maia wrote: I too am pro-toss (heh) but I think there are some cases where the top tier tosses just chern out really bad performances. For example, last season, when Snow just botched up getting lurker contained against ggaemo twice. Guess the margin of error is less forgiving for top Toss. Snow, mini, Bisu, and even Rain all have their own fair share of 'blunders' (not cannoning enough, mismicroing zealot to allow ling flood). Lurker contain is another semi-abusive strat that's frustrating to watch. I remember few seasons ago Snow got lurker contained badly by Soma on some wonky map that had a high ground terrain outside main cutting off access to rest of map. Ridiculous how placement of 3-4 lurkers can choke an entire Toss army to death. | ||
|
Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 17 2022 13:34 RKC wrote: Guess the margin of error is less forgiving for top Toss. Snow, mini, Bisu, and even Rain all have their own fair share of 'blunders' (not cannoning enough, mismicroing zealot to allow ling flood). It's really the nature of the race and the matchup. No matter how good you are as a Protoss, there will be a certain number of times where you die to a ling runby or a hydra bust. Case in point: Flash random Protoss vs Soma in ASL10. Couple of lings got into the main and the game became unrecoverable for Flash. | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
On September 17 2022 07:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Can anyone explain why on game 5, on the first zergling attack, bisu moved his two zealots out to engage instead of staying in the sim city choke? Bisu’s opener was a choke job but some ppl don’t want to admit to it. He inexplicably moved out with those two zeals for reasons only he would know. I’m guessing he underestimated how many lings were there. And then he botched his wall against the next group of lings, letting them through to kill his cannon and again disrupt his mining in the main. His early game was bad and it gave SK too much of an advantage going into the mid game. The drone snipes gave him some hope but SK was too far ahead by then. Once Bisu moved out the hydra drop counter meant SK only had to defend a big push from Bisu and he was home. That last game was about Bisu’s mistakes in the early game. The balance whine can’t gloss over that. I’ll give you arkanoid though. That map is trash for protosses. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On September 15 2022 19:47 TMNT wrote: Soulkey is the better player. He's literally no. 1 on spon games and more importantly has 66% record vs Bisu and above 60% vs any other Protoss. Anyone thinking Bisu should beat Soulkey in an obvious way is probably disconnected to the modern Korean BW scene. Which is exactly why I included "in this setting". Soulkey never achieved anything in an official tournament. Bisu did many times. Nice that he's doing well in spon matches, but it doesn't really mean all that much. Edit: and his winrate of 60%+ also kinda shows that, he was lucky those zergling rushes worked out and Bisu's micro was not on point, otherwise he'd be dead meat... | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1711 Posts
On September 17 2022 22:18 RowdierBob wrote: Bisu’s opener was a choke job but some ppl don’t want to admit to it. He inexplicably moved out with those two zeals for reasons only he would know. I’m guessing he underestimated how many lings were there. And then he botched his wall against the next group of lings, letting them through to kill his cannon and again disrupt his mining in the main. His early game was bad and it gave SK too much of an advantage going into the mid game. The drone snipes gave him some hope but SK was too far ahead by then. Once Bisu moved out the hydra drop counter meant SK only had to defend a big push from Bisu and he was home. That last game was about Bisu’s mistakes in the early game. The balance whine can’t gloss over that. I’ll give you arkanoid though. That map is trash for protosses. If we’re being honest, its only really the game1 hydra bust that was cheap. Game4 showed that the 9pool could be properly defended. Still, u gotta admit, one cheap win is plenty in a bo5. | ||
|
TMNT
3064 Posts
On September 17 2022 23:28 Kaolla wrote: Which is exactly why I included "in this setting". Soulkey never achieved anything in an official tournament. Bisu did many times. Nice that he's doing well in spon matches, but it doesn't really mean all that much. Edit: and his winrate of 60%+ also kinda shows that, he was lucky those zergling rushes worked out and Bisu's micro was not on point, otherwise he'd be dead meat... But you're talking about achievements in the past, way back to kespa. By that logic Stork and Jaedong should also be considered the better players and should beat Soulkey. Also he won KSL2 while Bisu never won anything in the modern era. And spongames mean A LOT actually. It literally is the most accurate thing to evaluate a player's level at the current moment. Like, the top 16 on eloboard are almost exactly the same R16 players we have. | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13293 Posts
On September 18 2022 00:56 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: If we’re being honest, its only really the game1 hydra bust that was cheap. Game4 showed that the 9pool could be properly defended. Still, u gotta admit, one cheap win is plenty in a bo5. Absolutely. Bisu lost the gamble on that game but it's how high level BW goes. | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements? | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1711 Posts
On September 19 2022 13:53 RKC wrote: My understanding is that SK was a late bloomer or new gen top tier Zerg that could've won a Starleague had BW continued to flourish under KeSPA. In the same league as Jangbi or even Fantasy (or just one slight level below). And he's the only rising BW star that made a smooth transition to SC2 and won stuff (Inno doesn't really count because his BW career was somewhat middle-tier). Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements? I really cant remember. He definitely had a name for himself. But that “new gen top tier zerg” sounds more like zero. Very strong zerg. Lost to Flash in his first finals, which no one can really fault him for. But as I said, was such a long time ago that its hard to say for sure. | ||
|
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On September 19 2022 13:53 RKC wrote: My understanding is that SK was a late bloomer or new gen top tier Zerg that could've won a Starleague had BW continued to flourish under KeSPA. In the same league as Jangbi or even Fantasy (or just one slight level below). And he's the only rising BW star that made a smooth transition to SC2 and won stuff (Inno doesn't really count because his BW career was somewhat middle-tier). Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements? Rain has the same exact history as Soulkey. Both were up and coming players before the SC2 transition. I'd say Soulkey was closer to being a well established BW pro then Rain was. Soulkey had a really cool alternative approach to ZvT that put him in the spotlight. Ultimately, he lived in Zero's shadow at that time. Soulkey was closer to ranks 5-10 then he was to top 5 before the transition, which is still a really good place to be. | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
On September 20 2022 01:17 BisuDagger wrote: Rain has the same exact history as Soulkey. Both were up and coming players before the SC2 transition. I'd say Soulkey was closer to being a well established BW pro then Rain was. Soulkey had a really cool alternative approach to ZvT that put him in the spotlight. Ultimately, he lived in Zero's shadow at that time. Soulkey was closer to ranks 5-10 then he was to top 5 before the transition, which is still a really good place to be. Yes, that comparison is super on point! And Rain also transition seamlessly into SC2. Speaking of Zero, where was he during the hybrid period? Did he even try SC2 or just stuck with BW? Anyway, all three are roughly in the same league. SK hasn't achieved as much during the modern BW era. But his Achilles heel has been ZvZ, which is a big clutch due to Zerg dominance in recent years (Zero, soma, hero, larva). Both SK and Larva have a unique style of playing Zerg especially ZvT. That's why I'm drawn to them. Hope that SK can secure the ASL crown this season! Snow is another long-suffering top tier player that I'll be rooting for. | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Zero gave an interview (during ASL timespan but talking about events in Kespa timespan) where he said that the KT coach used to call his coach and ask if Flash could practice TvZ with him. Then the coach start asking for either him or Soulkey, and then eventually just Soulkey. Sorry I don’t have a link to that interview, maybe someone in the hive mind will remember where it can be found. Also, Soulkey just never gets picked early in group selection. Nobody wants him in their group. | ||
|
ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1702 Posts
He always cheeses in ZvP and shows how abusive zerg is in this matchup Im so sick of Soulkey ruining tournaments Zero chance of winning this tournament anyways. He will choke in the finals. Wish Rain were still playing to slap this fool back in his place as a ZvP cheeser | ||
|
oxKnu
1240 Posts
| ||
|
ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1702 Posts
On September 20 2022 01:17 BisuDagger wrote: Rain has the same exact history as Soulkey. Both were up and coming players before the SC2 transition. I'd say Soulkey was closer to being a well established BW pro then Rain was. Soulkey had a really cool alternative approach to ZvT that put him in the spotlight. Ultimately, he lived in Zero's shadow at that time. Soulkey was closer to ranks 5-10 then he was to top 5 before the transition, which is still a really good place to be. Wrong. By.Sun aka Bison aka Rain won a fucking Proleague Finals match vs Action, one the biggest stages EVER in SC1 history. How much more established can you get (sure a little more but still, playing in a proleague finals is huge) | ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/125.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/647.jpg)
