EPT[ASL12] Grand Finals - Page 10
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Recommended Games + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler [Set 1] + Good timing from the winner + Show Spoiler [Set 2] + Yes, some close calls and throws but fun nonetheless + Show Spoiler [Set 3] + yes, you'll know when you see it. + Show Spoiler [Set 4] + useful skill toi have + Show Spoiler [Set 5] + when scouting goes good, it shows + Show Spoiler [Set 6] + Slow moving car crash + Show Spoiler [Set 7] + Useful skill toi have[2] | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
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Moopower
128 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Starecat
938 Posts
Carriers were a instawin. | ||
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VGhost
United States3613 Posts
Definitely showed Mini had prepared better, so I thought he earned the victory. I'm most disappointed Rush didn't really alter his mid-game strategy at all vs. the carriers. | ||
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NeVeR
1352 Posts
On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote: Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans? This 12 nexus into fast carrier play seems like a new meta. Not sure how well this question can be answered considering that Flash has been doing military service. | ||
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hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote: Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans? I thought the standard counter is the 2-1 upgraded, 160 supply push. Maybe the maps weren’t suitable for it… | ||
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Ideas
United States8101 Posts
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
Game 2: 1 gate nex. 4 base mass units. - Counter: Fact CC, early Port harass 3rd - T win Game 3: nex first 2 base carriers+6gw. - Counter: Rax CC, early bust try - P win Game 4: nex first 2 base carriers+4gw 3rd base. - Counter: Fact CC, early Port harass, bust try - P win Game 5: 1 gate nex. dt drop, 2 base carriers+5gw 3rd base. - Counter: Fact CC - T win Game 6: 2 proxy gate - held - T win At this point the players had to consider: the only thing that worked for P was very very quick nexus straight into 2 base carriers, everything else failed. So on Mini's side it's logical that he sticked to the winning strategy. Rush failed to adopt. I think he could've tried 8 rax at his nat, which he can still change to rax CC if it's not nex first. He is not much more economically behind than by going fact cc vs next first, especially if the chosen dropship harass fails after. You cannot let nex first go unpunished every game, have to pose some rush threat. Or if you don't want to risk this, at least scout earlier, so you can rush with marines and vult. And later, definately faster academy against such a cheesy player. Game 7: nex first 2 base carriers+6gw - Counter: Fact CC, early Port harass, bust try - P win Overall, to me it seemed that technically Rush was stronger, but strategically Mini was better. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote: Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans? Often Flash uses the same or a similar counter as everyone else but his timings are just that much sharper. He is usually also more decisive with his unit movement. And lastly he is very good at prioritising the correct micro elements. During the fight at Mini's third in the last match I'm sure Flash would have done some manual targeting with the tanks in exchange for a little bit less goliath micro. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Scan and Nyoken mentioned a few times how Rush could've scouted better or at least read the situation better (Toss passivity with goons early game smelt of 2-base carrier or some fast tech). Could Rush had pulled off some timing attack before the carriers hit? Or did he scout reasonably well but react poorly (army composition)? | ||
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Byo
Canada207 Posts
The question is if it can be realistically scouted and countered in time with a comp with more vult. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/37819664 Game 1: 12 nexus into 2 gates on Neo Sylphid, gets scouted, bunker rushed = gg Game 2: Mini loses his reavers (1 base robo) despite doing some good damage early on and that allowed Flash to push+he scouted carriers before the first one was even out = gg Game 3: 12 nexus vs 13 cc, Flash is on par or better position, starts making goliath early, 4 at a time culminating in a dead third (why Mini made it close to Flash's base is beyond me, probably thinking he can defend it with offense) then a big push towards the main and a siege at the bottom. Goliaths were enough to deal with 5-6 carriers and shredded interceptor. Flash had a 3rd+4th mining by this point, while Mini had lost his 3rd and was only just retaking it at another position = gg I would say part of it was the maps. Trying to 12 nexus on Neo Sylphid is a lot different from trying to 12 nexus on something like good night where the rush difference is bigger plus scouting plays a role. Flash also scouted the carrier switch in at least one game (likely did game 3 too, didn't watch whole game) so he started preparing goliaths in advance. In general, I believe scouting them early and pushing with a goliath/tank army before they have 4 carriers with 8 interceptor and a small army to help the carrier is great. Microing is a part of it too. Flash plays another role since he knows what he can and can't do, and the timing is all mapped out so he can go greedy when he's able etc.. In this finals, in the last game, Rush had a chance when he pushed, but if memory serves, he attacked up the high ground (first volley at least) and don't believe that he played out the micro game optimally. Granted, the last game was not a 12 nexus. It was what, 1 gate core into exp? | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
But I feel like people tend to forget the Dragoon elevator in game 2. That was such a 200 IQ move that I dont think I've ever seen before. If only Mini decided to play more sensibly after that instead of that mass zealot attack which pretty much an ape move. Now come to think of it, Mini is such a player full of brilliant moments like that. The 2 Gate opening vs Queen where he mapped out everything perfectly. Then last season, the game vs Queen where he sent like 4-6 DTs as fighting unit to end the game right out. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On November 11 2021 23:48 BigFan wrote: Here are the Flash vs Mini series, with some 2 base carrier games, in question: https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/37819664 Game 1: 12 nexus into 2 gates on Neo Sylphid, gets scouted, bunker rushed = gg Game 2: Mini loses his reavers (1 base robo) despite doing some good damage early on and that allowed Flash to push+he scouted carriers before the first one was even out = gg Game 3: 12 nexus vs 13 cc, Flash is on par or better position, starts making goliath early, 4 at a time culminating in a dead third (why Mini made it close to Flash's base is beyond me, probably thinking he can defend it with offense) then a big push towards the main and a siege at the bottom. Goliaths were enough to deal with 5-6 carriers and shredded interceptor. Flash had a 3rd+4th mining by this point, while Mini had lost his 3rd and was only just retaking it at another position = gg I would say part of it was the maps. Trying to 12 nexus on Neo Sylphid is a lot different from trying to 12 nexus on something like good night where the rush difference is bigger plus scouting plays a role. Flash also scouted the carrier switch in at least one game (likely did game 3 too, didn't watch whole game) so he started preparing goliaths in advance. In general, I believe scouting them early and pushing with a goliath/tank army before they have 4 carriers with 8 interceptor and a small army to help the carrier is great. Microing is a part of it too. Flash plays another role since he knows what he can and can't do, and the timing is all mapped out so he can go greedy when he's able etc.. In this finals, in the last game, Rush had a chance when he pushed, but if memory serves, he attacked up the high ground (first volley at least) and don't believe that he played out the micro game optimally. Granted, the last game was not a 12 nexus. It was what, 1 gate core into exp? Yes, I roughly remember those games looking ezpz for Flash. Maps are different, Mini has improved since then. Hence why I'm curious whether Flash (in prime Tesagi mode) would've struggled against Mini this year. Mini went for a close third base to Rush in one of the games as well (if I recall correctly). A 6 clock base next to Rush at 8 o clock. Mini could've taken the 3 o clock base instead. Maybe part of the plan is to have gates at the third to pump gateway reinforcements? | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote: Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans? I think people in this thread isn't giving enough credit to Minis early game here. How he cuts corners very well, like skipping goon range, and puts on soft pressure and scouts very well with excellent probe micro to stay alive as long as possible. It seemed to me that Mini was doing better overall in the small micro-engagements, Rush had a few moments of great success but overall Mini did better. In game 1 he does a very awkward zealot heavy ground army that Rush didn't expect after having a really good opener and being in control. The perfect counter to the dropship play in game 2 was amazing, he knows Rush likes to go for it so he countered it. He lost the game by underestimating the defense and doing a poor attack. In game 3 the way he scouted with an empty shuttle and went for scouts when he saw the 5 fact won him the game, Rush would've busted him if he hadn't done that. Overall I felt like Rush was a bit to passive on several occasions and Mini usually won the mind game, like with the very late gas steal. But Rush playing so safe is what won him game 2, 5 and 6. He punished Mini hard when Mini was cheesy or overaggressive. But to passive when Mini played greedy and got his machine rolling. And I mean, there is so much more to these games, I thought they were amazing and both played very well. But Mini was definitely the more deserving winner, there was a lot of special flair and preparation to his play here while Rush played a bit to standard. It really could've been a 4-0 if Mini didn't throw that 2nd game with that poor attack. Also, someone that knows this better, to me it seemed a bit like Rush microd his Goliaths wrong in some engagements, when the carriers where on top of the goliaths they were still shooting down interceptors, isn't it better to target down the carriers then? There were so many goliaths it wouldn't take many volleys to bring a carrier down? But I felt like the carriers stayed alive forever, so after the fight Mini is out of interceptors and Rush is out of Goliaths. Sure, if often times the carriers are not in range to be attacked effectively, but even when they were it seemed like Rush didn't target them as much as he should've. Or is it something I don't know about Carrier vs. Goliath fights to explain it? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I too felt like Rush's micro could've been better. My understanding is the same as yours. If the goliaths are under the carriers, it's typically better to target the carrier itself compared to the goliaths being out of range where you target interceptors. General rule, but exceptions do apply. | ||
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psyCrowe
Scotland195 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 12 2021 07:02 BigFan wrote: Yes, the games are more complex, and it's true that Mini skipping goon range or delaying it helped him get up faster tech on top of all the preparation and other brilliant moves he did (shuttle play in game 2 was great, and could've honestly even won him the game with slightly better micro/if shuttle was hidden till drop). I too felt like Rush's micro could've been better. My understanding is the same as yours. If the goliaths are under the carriers, it's typically better to target the carrier itself compared to the goliaths being out of range where you target interceptors. General rule, but exceptions do apply. Well said, I agree with everything. | ||
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