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Results
Recommended Games
+ Show Spoiler [ZerO vs Bisu] +
+ Show Spoiler [Winners Game] +
+ Show Spoiler [Losers Game] +
+ Show Spoiler [Final Game] +
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[ASL9] Ro16 Group D
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [ZerO vs Bisu] + + Show Spoiler [Winners Game] + + Show Spoiler [Losers Game] + + Show Spoiler [Final Game] + CSS: FO-nTTaX Banner: v1 | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Katkishka
United States648 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3094 Posts
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
Best worthy more than other to go to rO8. So Best + someone else | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
Best, Bisu, Sharp and Zero's best matchup, quite arguably. We should see some of the best games of the tournament. So excited! Best has been playing some of the best Starcraft of his career online. He's probably the favorite to make it out first. Could be anyone after that. I'd guess Zero. Rooting for Bisu. | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On March 24 2020 15:34 GorillaPimp wrote: This is the sickest group in a long time. My God. Best, Bisu, Sharp and Zero's best matchup, quite arguably. We should see some of the best games of the tournament. So excited! Best has been playing some of the best Starcraft of his career online. He's probably the favorite to make it out first. Could be anyone after that. I'd guess Zero. Rooting for Bisu. ??? On contrary Best has been looking anything but good lately. He has 0-7 record against Light, if he can pull it together against Sharp the maybe. Hopefully Zero can advance, but he and Best probably just choke like they always do... | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
who chokes harder today. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4175 Posts
hope for some awesome games today! go go protoss! | ||
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TornadoSteve
1013 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On March 24 2020 18:32 TornadoSteve wrote: Heart or brain: anyone but sharp Clearly you have no heart. | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 24 2020 18:32 TornadoSteve wrote: Heart or brain: anyone but sharp You have a solid heart and brain sir! | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
Bisu > Zero Bisu > Best Zero > Sharp Best > Zero | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
LB Sharp Bisu, Heart is Bisu and some game threes | ||
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momotaro
Japan19 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:13 momotaro wrote: is this now? Yes! | ||
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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slahserdota
1 Post
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
e: oh Korean stream, not sure, sorry | ||
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momotaro
Japan19 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:21 momotaro wrote: this is broodwar right? havent watched a lot of games for years, but i thought it was phased out? is it back? yes it is, it was "gone" for about a couple of years, been back since 2015 | ||
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:21 momotaro wrote: this is broodwar right? havent watched a lot of games for years, but i thought it was phased out? is it back? it never went away | ||
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:24 BLinD-RawR wrote: yes it is, it was "gone" for about a couple of years, been back since 2015 uhh, ever heard of the SonicTV BJ StarLeague?? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:25 Ziggy wrote: uhh, ever heard of the SonicTV BJ StarLeague?? have you? because I lived it, where the fuck were you? | ||
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
On March 24 2020 16:47 BLinD-RawR wrote: BeSt or ZerO who chokes harder today. well this bo1 early game.. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:26 BLinD-RawR wrote: have you? because I lived it, where the fuck were you? same ?? | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria484 Posts
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
Next: Zero vs Bisu !!! omg ! what a group ! So glad i am home because of the quarantine ! I miss that song "it was ninty nine "  | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:41 tanngard wrote: Why can't we have link to the youtube stream on the sidebar? because youtube's API is ass and every youtube stream is a unique link, so its not like just linking the channel and it takes you directly to the live stream | ||
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
My LB is on Best and Bisu , but if Zero wins i don't mind ! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: hey I remember this theme bisu is using, isn't this the park wan gyu song? the one they used for tving OSL? That guy who looked like a older rock dude? And always cheered for Bisu? I member. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 19:51 prosatan wrote: Tastless ! cut this exclamations man! it is nowhere near funny! You guys find it funny? Maybe I lack some basic sense of humour idk.... Idk not my style of humour but I've accepted that it just is what is gonna be happening now... | ||
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Wonk
546 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
Zero has an edge now | ||
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
This favors Zero | ||
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Wonk
546 Posts
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Katkishka
United States648 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
Zero should take down Best ,no problem! | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4175 Posts
Weird. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:02 Garrl wrote: boy, this is an unexpected result. Why? Queen is one of the strongest Zerg out there (especially in ZvP I feel) and Bisu is still not up to his old form | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:02 Garrl wrote: boy, this is an unexpected result. Bisu play was strange to say the least ... | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
I think Best will beat Zero in a straight up macro game but if he gets all ined or takes damage early on Zero will take it. I think it would've better for Bisu to hang back and take a third for sure. But I also understand his mind set. He wanted to hit Zerg before their hydra count got too high. But his micro failed him as he didnt protect his shuttle and was unable to reduce the hydra count enough to gain an advantage. If you keep zergs hydra count low goon reaver becomes much stronger. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:02 Arvendilin wrote: Why? Queen is one of the strongest Zerg out there (especially in ZvP I feel) and Bisu is still not up to his old form Bad form can make you play in a not clever way? Because i though this would hurt your mechanichs not your b***n | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:05 Sirris wrote: I don't understand all the surprise about Bisu losing to Zero. I voted Best/ Zero myself. There's nothing about any of Bisus recent games to indicate that hes even close to the level he was in the past. It's not a surprising result at all. I think Best will do much better against Zero. At least in a macro game. I think Best will beat Zero in a straight up macro game but if he gets all ined or takes damage early on Zero will take it. I think it would've better for Bisu to hang back and take a third for sure. But I also understand his mind set. He wanted to hit Zerg before their hydra count got too high. But his micro failed him as he didnt protect his shuttle and was unable to reduce the hydra count enough to gain an advantage. If you keep zergs hydra count low goon reaver becomes much stronger. Losing is ok. Playing the way he did is unapceptable after the initial hold. Make totally no sense. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:07 Xeln4g4 wrote: Bad form can make you play in a not clever way? Because i though this would hurt your mechanichs not your b***n Obviously? But if you first push isn't working it is very difficult to come back, your storm is just so late at that point, losing that shuttle was a mechanical misplay, he also had his Zealots out of position, I think he anticipated more Hydras on highground... | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:10 mishimaBeef wrote: now that i think of it, did he have his corsairs with the attack on the 3rd? They were hanging out at the main/natural looking for overlords. Maybe the idea was to draw Zero's scourge/attention to the corsairs while he made a beeline for the 3rd and bought enough time to get up on the ramp. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:10 Arvendilin wrote: Obviously? But if you first push isn't working it is very difficult to come back, your storm is just so late at that point, losing that shuttle was a mechanical misplay, he also had his Zealots out of position, I think he anticipated more Hydras on highground... He could just expand safely and play a macro game. He was ahead, he forced a quick win when it was CLEARLY not possible after losing first 2 reavers. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:14 Xeln4g4 wrote: He could just expand safely and play a macro game. He was ahead, he forced a quick win when it was CLEARLY not possible after losing first 2 reavers. He was pretty boned after getting rekt on the first attack. He was kinda all-in after it failed, taking a 3rd just would have been a slower death with an even narrower margin of victory. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:14 Xeln4g4 wrote: He could just expand safely and play a macro game. He was ahead, he forced a quick win when it was CLEARLY not possible after losing first 2 reavers. I mean yea he tried to go for a quick win, but once you are locked into that strategy, after losing your first push just going for storm is basically impossible, and if you go for storm earlier then you can't do your push. Once he went for that strategy I don't think he could easily transition out of it again, you'd give the Zerg so much space | ||
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:24 Akio wrote: Zero really smashed this group, grats! at least 1 more game to go | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 22 2020 17:44 whaski wrote: Good predictions but there is something to consider: Soma better play safe against Soulkey who seems to have insanely micro with zerglings and mutalisks. Best was streaming yesterday and got absoluty destroyed in every spongame he played. But considering Zero advancing is just silly. He is THE chocker and unless Bisu really plays subpar is going to get eliminated without single win | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
Even Bisu is doing better in other match ups from what I've seen, Stork looked okay but not great (and I haven't seen too much of him recently), feels like ages since Protoss had a player really confident to go up against Zerg | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4175 Posts
BeSt played horribly. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:24 prosatan wrote: Beast Zero ! Amazing ZvP, probably the best right now ! Queen has been an absolute god in ZvP for a while now, sadly they don't always play their best in offline matches but it seems like today they've showed up | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
Oh right they switched the format around a bit! My bad, haven't been following this season as closely | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:26 Akio wrote: Oh right they switched the format around a bit! My bad, haven't been following this season as closely We had some good couple of groups, just skip the round of 24 tho, those games were mostly shit | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:26 Arvendilin wrote: Queen has been an absolute god in ZvP for a while now, sadly they don't always play their best in offline matches but it seems like today they've showed up Yes , great ZvP and even ZvT. His zvz is standard i think. I hope he qualifies even if i don't placed my LB on him (I'm so stupid sometimes!!). And I also hope he doesn't match against a zerg next round | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:30 prosatan wrote: Yes , great ZvP and even ZvT. His zvz is standard i think. I hope he qualifies even if i don't placed my LB on him (I'm so stupid sometimes!!). And I also hope he doesn't match against a zerg next round Their stream is also pretty fun to watch, the only Zerg I will consistently watch play tbh | ||
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
He also snipes an overlord with a dragoon! But he doesn't make a stargate | ||
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
Best with 2 forges / 8 gates timing attack | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:27 Arvendilin wrote: We had some good couple of groups, just skip the round of 24 tho, those games were mostly shit Yep, saw some highlights on the pros' youtube channels, Larva vs Stork was apparently really good? | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
Best has a supply lead but the supply lead is Corsairs | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
 My bad. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
templar on 1, templar on 2, brothers | ||
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:43 EsportsJohn wrote: Best was dead the moment he let Zero get a 4th base uncontested while failing to secure his own 3rd. Straight up. Best's strategy was just subpar, and Zero read it really well. Yea but its extremely difficult against the strategy that Zero did... | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4175 Posts
yuck | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:44 Arvendilin wrote: Yea but its extremely difficult against the strategy that Zero did... That's literally my point? Best chose the wrong strategy, had no chance to win by like 8:00. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:45 M3t4PhYzX wrote: ZvP is an absolutely fucking disgusting matchup.. + ZerO just played it perfectly. Make a lot of bases, make a lot of hydras, switch into mutas whenever you want and win. That was very hard to watch. yuck I like protoss being smashed by what you described. But I root for Bisu now. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
I think more chances have ZerO and Best. so ZerO and Best gogo | ||
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Philinho
1 Post
It shows that Sharp beat BeSt which was clearly not the case. Edit: Seems fixed. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:45 EsportsJohn wrote: That's literally my point? Best chose the wrong strategy, had no chance to win by like 8:00. No I didn't mean it is extremely difficult with Bests strategy, which is true, but what I said is the strategy that Zero used it is extremely difficult to react properly it is very easy to overdefend/go into a strategy that can't punish Zerg, but at the same time it is extremely easy to underdefend and just die if Zero choses to kill you this time around. The early game looks identical whether he wants to outmacro you or kill you it is very hard to read | ||
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4175 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:58 konadora wrote: ok sharp lost xD quick trigger my friend. Don't shoot yet! | ||
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:57 Philinho wrote: Is there an Admin here that can fix the detailed result Sharp vs Best? It shows that Sharp beat BeSt which was clearly not the case. it's been fixed(not by me), but one of the nice things about liquipedia is that anyone can edit it, so if you see someone make a mistake you can take care of it | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:58 Arvendilin wrote: No I didn't mean it is extremely difficult with Bests strategy, which is true, but what I said is the strategy that Zero used it is extremely difficult to react properly it is very easy to overdefend/go into a strategy that can't punish Zerg, but at the same time it is extremely easy to underdefend and just die if Zero choses to kill you this time around. The early game looks identical whether he wants to outmacro you or kill you it is very hard to read Oh of course. I love that build. But going defensive reaver into double forge into late corsair that doesn't scout until after the 4th is finished is quite possibly the worst response ever to it. It's not even a case of "Oh, Best had to make a difficult decision and he chose wrong"; it was 100% wrong. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
On March 24 2020 21:01 M3t4PhYzX wrote: xD quick trigger my friend. Don't shoot yet! :p | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
"This really shows how good Flash is" | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
E: welp maybe not | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
archons huh | ||
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
Best game of group by the way. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
And his 3rd and 4th were literally the worst places to expand to allowing Sharp to counter easily. | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
On March 24 2020 21:19 BLinD-RawR wrote: bisu threw so hard the it went around the world and hit him on the back of the head LOL nice one. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
Step 2 : build an observatory Step 3 : walk a zealot near his probes buddy | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
What year is this ddammmnnnn hype it up | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
Game 3 let's go ! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
On March 24 2020 22:45 Garrl wrote: are the ro8 groups getting chosen today? i think they mentioned yes? I thought they were talking about it right as i tuned in | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On March 24 2020 22:47 Xeln4g4 wrote: The girl is in love with Bisu! Who isn't? | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
By the way, I love watching player's stream VODs after ro8 seeds are over - I wonder what reaction player who gets FlaSh gonna have. | ||
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momotaro
Japan19 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
 Zero facing a zerg pfffff | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7970 Posts
Zero vs Larva Stork vs Light Soma vs Bisu | ||
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momotaro
Japan19 Posts
On March 24 2020 22:49 Akio wrote: A Flash Bisu finals would be disappointing honestly... why, flash is not playing well now? bisu looks rusty | ||
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
![[image loading]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/306265950007590914/692008832662110249/unknown.png?width=794&height=447) | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On March 24 2020 22:49 Akio wrote: A Flash Bisu finals would be disappointing honestly... Yeah Bisu is in no shape to beat Flash, he barely made it vs Sharp who is considerably weaker vs Protoss. Stork has a much better chance or Soma. | ||
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rotta
5585 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On March 24 2020 22:56 momotaro wrote: why, flash is not playing well now? bisu looks rusty Nah, Flash would smash Bisu so hard it would be over in 25 minutes | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
Flash vs Action won't disappoint. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1013 Posts
My predictions: Flash 3:0 (and i really love Action) Larva 3:1 Light 3:2 Soma 3:1 | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
ZerO 3 - 2 Larva. Stork 3 - 2 Light. Bisu 3 - 2 SoMa. FlaSh 3 - 1 ZerO Bisu 3 - 1 Stork FlaSh 4 - 1 Bisu. | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
Larva 3-2 Light 3-0 Bisu 3-2 Flash 3-0 Light 3-1 Flash 4-0 | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
For Ro4 I think: Flash, Queen, Stork, Soma. Flash v Stork finals gogo~~ | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 24 2020 23:18 BisuDagger wrote: One of the greatest Flash TvZs: https://youtu.be/YT5YgKlhoC0 Flash vs Action won't disappoint. oh damn I forgot Action was on eSTRO before he joined KT | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 25 2020 02:10 Qikz wrote: oh damn I forgot Action was on eSTRO before he joined KT Yup! He was part of the eSTRO Gen before he became a KT FingerBoomer. | ||
Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On March 24 2020 23:45 outscar wrote: This is my prediction but with Stork vs Flash final.FlaSh 3 - 1 Action. ZerO 3 - 2 Larva. Stork 3 - 2 Light. Bisu 3 - 2 SoMa. FlaSh 3 - 1 ZerO Bisu 3 - 1 Stork FlaSh 4 - 1 Bisu. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4175 Posts
some good games coming right up I hope! FlaSh 3 - 1 Action. ZerO 3 - 1 Larva. Stork 3 - 2 Light. Bisu 3 - 2 SoMa. FlaSh 3 - 1 ZerO Bisu 1 - 3 Stork ZerO 3 - 1 Bisu FlaSh 4 - 1 Stork imo | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 25 2020 02:37 Xxio wrote: This is my prediction but with Stork vs Flash final. Not a bad bet. The last time Bisu lost a BoX series against protoss was in 2011. However, Stork is a thorn. Bisu KESPA Total Record in BoX: 18 series wins: 6 series losses with a 75% winrate Bisu BoX loses list: 11-01-13 2010-2011 PDPop MSL Stork 10-11-04 MBC Survivor 21st Jila (Kal) 10-08-19 WCG2010 Korea Jila (Kal) 08-10-10 2008 Incruit OSL Stork 07-12-14 2007 EVER OSL Stork 06-05-11 2006 Newcomer Eval.. Tankboy Head to Head with Stork Bisu has 7 wins - 9 losses (43.75%) in individual leagues Bisu has 10 wins - 15 losses (40.00%) in overall games versus Stork Maps: Bisu is 7 wins - 10 losses (41.18%) on Match Point in the Kespa era. 3-2 versus Terran (60.00%) 2-1 versus Zerg (66.67%) 2-7 versus Protoss (22.22%) Post-Kespa Bisu has 6 wins - 3 losses (66.67%) , but no matches against Protoss. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 25 2020 03:55 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Bisu did fine today! He lost 1 BO1 and won 2 BO3s. His loss to Zero was strange, but i sense we are missing some history/mind games there. Zero(Queen) was amazing today, his zvp is so strong, its really really impressive. But Bisu played nice games with some mistakes here and there, but was he ever mistake-free? He was quite magical today and he is improving. Zero took a page out of by.Hero's book, which is one of the two Zergs to beat Bisu in a post-kespa finals. by.Hero popularized overpool openings for fast lings and the hydra fake attacks into 6 hatch play. This was Bisu's kryptonite back then and still is. The deceiving aggression forced both Bisu and BeSt into reaver defenses. Bisu's goon/shuttle reaver response was a rather poor one as it not only gambled on not catching scourge hits, but eliminated any possibility of a third or templar tech if the first attack failed. Goons are also historically bad pre-lurker and it was reinforced in that game. | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
I do understand that of course its a very safe way and minimizes the dmg on the shuttle/reaver, but what if Bisu would have just dropped it next to the minerals at the natural, between the natural and the main. I mean we see these scarabs from behind the minerals pretty much always dud due to the fact that the workers get pulled and the scarab cant reach its target. But in this case he knew Best didn't have much, why not just drop it next to the mins, yea the shuttle and reaver might take some damage, but there's virtually no way to stop the scarab from hitting. At least you're guaranteed to do some dmg... In this case he still lost everything without getting much done at all, so I mean it couldn't have been much worse? | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Then we got that game vs Best on hitchhiker. Strat was nice enough and at one point, he actually had the zealot+shieldbattery advantage but instead he completely floundered and Best won the game. I'm not sure how anyone can see that and not facepalm lol. Offtopic: Would be nice if tastosis chilled a bit with the hype. More specifically phrases like "He's so good" even when what took place was nothing close to that (imo). It's like a catch phrase now and gets used all the time haha. They were much more on point today compared to group C so that's a plus in my book. | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/tGjydLP.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EGR9bGX.jpg) | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On March 24 2020 20:13 EsportsJohn wrote: They were hanging out at the main/natural looking for overlords. Maybe the idea was to draw Zero's scourge/attention to the corsairs while he made a beeline for the 3rd and bought enough time to get up on the ramp. watched it again you know what? haha, his corsairs went to the main to kill that one scouting overlord, you can see them leave the main to fly across the map soon after the shuttle is dying (re: bisu vs queen match 2/5 today, bo1 -- where bisu attempted a timing attack on the zerg 3rd with reaver goon) pretty unfortunate, he might have gotten up the ramp with a decent army + reavers had the shuttle survived the initial scourge | ||
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Miragee
8499 Posts
On March 25 2020 06:16 BigFan wrote: Some nice games, but my god can Bisu's engagements be just as bad as I remember lol. In PvT yes. There is always 1-2 control groups of zealots somewhere bunched up and stuck behind goons or on a ledge... Would be nice if tastosis chilled a bit with the hype. More specifically phrases like "He's so good" even when what took place was nothing close to that (imo). I agree but a lot of casters across all games do that. Also phrases like "the best...I've ever seen". So overused it completely kills the meaning of the sentence. //Edit: I have literally no idea how the Ro8 matches will go aside from Flash vs Action. All the other ones are really 50:50 in my mind atm. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
i think reavers are good to get for the crackling timing in the mid-late game to protect your dragoons better | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3094 Posts
Larva 3-2 ZerO Stork 3-0 Light Bisu 3-1 Soma | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 25 2020 07:01 Miragee wrote: In PvT yes. There is always 1-2 control groups of zealots somewhere bunched up and stuck behind goons or on a ledge... Exactly. Like, how hard is it with your 300 apm to just do an extra several clicks to space out then go from there? Lots of time, his goons are in the front and his zealots are dancing in the back. I applaud him trying to drop zealots on tank clusters and such, but if you don't have that frontal+drop timed well, the drop units will get cleaned with most of your army dancing at the front. It's somewhat what happened in game 1 vs Sharp and happened on MP in game 2. In game 3, it was a bit less of an issue since he split his army (or did it split due to AI?) and as a result, he crushed Sharp one-sidedly. He could've crushed him in both games 1 and 2 had he just engaged better. Then maybe he could've given us a longer hitchhiker game and slept before 10! rofl. On March 25 2020 07:01 Miragee wrote: I agree but a lot of casters across all games do that. Also phrases like "the best...I've ever seen". So overused it completely kills the meaning of the sentence. //Edit: I have literally no idea how the Ro8 matches will go aside from Flash vs Action. All the other ones are really 50:50 in my mind atm. ya, I realize that. This was more of a "I know it'll keep happening, but if they could go easy on X, it would be great". Afaik, they don't read TL so it'll fall on deaf ears ~ | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 25 2020 08:41 BigFan wrote: Exactly. Like, how hard is it with your 300 apm to just do an extra several clicks to space out then go from there? Lots of time, his goons are in the front and his zealots are dancing in the back. I applaud him trying to drop zealots on tank clusters and such, but if you don't have that frontal+drop timed well, the drop units will get cleaned with most of your army dancing at the front. It's somewhat what happened in game 1 vs Sharp and happened on MP in game 2. In game 3, it was a bit less of an issue since he split his army (or did it split due to AI?) and as a result, he crushed Sharp one-sidedly. He could've crushed him in both games 1 and 2 had he just engaged better. Then maybe he could've given us a longer hitchhiker game and slept before 10! rofl. ya, I realize that. This was more of a "I know it'll keep happening, but if they could go easy on X, it would be great". Afaik, they don't read TL so it'll fall on deaf ears ~ I found nothing wrong with Group D's cast. If anything, there wasn't enough fawning or hyping Bisu. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1013 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
Larva 3-1 ZerO Stork 3-0 Light Soma 3-2 Bisu Flash 3-2 Larva Soma 3-1 Stork Soma 3-2 Flash Queen your way through Soma!!! | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On March 25 2020 06:16 BigFan wrote: Then we got that game vs Best on hitchhiker. Strat was nice enough and at one point, he actually had the zealot+shieldbattery advantage but instead he completely floundered and Best won the game. I'm not sure how anyone can see that and not facepalm lol. Was it actually a legit strat? Building the two gates right in Best's expo with a high chance of being scouted, and the shield bat coming later than Best? Whilst his initial micro scored some early advantages, does the strat only work for a player with superior micro than the opponent? Quite ballsy of Bisu. Is his 3-gate build in G3 a semi-allin strat? If so, even more ballsy! | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 25 2020 13:28 RKC wrote: Was it actually a legit strat? Building the two gates right in Best's expo with a high chance of being scouted, and the shield bat coming later than Best? Whilst his initial micro scored some early advantages, does the strat only work for a player with superior micro than the opponent? Quite ballsy of Bisu. Is his 3-gate build in G3 a semi-allin strat? If so, even more ballsy! I don't agree with how he placed the gates, but it's a legit strat as far as I know. Granted, he cut his eco to get the gates up so Best had better eco. I was mostly commenting when he had the 2 batteries up, up 2 zealots and he decided to run 2 around to the minerals or he pulled back or something. Maybe I missed something, but I would've at least pounced on Best's sb or tried to kill another zealot before 2 more popped for Best if I was in his position. Then he could just snowballed it slowly with micro, but Best if I recall properly outmicroed him with Best having something like 5 zealots to 1/2 of Bisu at the end. He was in a hurry to finish the series and go home to sleep lol. As for G3, well, Best went for the same build but with his last 2 gates being a bit delayed so Bisu got the advantage. I dunno if you can call it a semi-allin since you can still expand behind it, but obviously going for less gates and an earlier exp is better. Hopefully someone more knowledgable can provide an answer | ||
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Katkishka
United States648 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 25 2020 14:03 BigFan wrote: I don't agree with how he placed the gates, but it's a legit strat as far as I know. Granted, he cut his eco to get the gates up so Best had better eco. I was mostly commenting when he had the 2 batteries up, up 2 zealots and he decided to run 2 around to the minerals or he pulled back or something. Maybe I missed something, but I would've at least pounced on Best's sb or tried to kill another zealot before 2 more popped for Best if I was in his position. Then he could just snowballed it slowly with micro, but Best if I recall properly outmicroed him with Best having something like 5 zealots to 1/2 of Bisu at the end. He was in a hurry to finish the series and go home to sleep lol. As for G3, well, Best went for the same build but with his last 2 gates being a bit delayed so Bisu got the advantage. I dunno if you can call it a semi-allin since you can still expand behind it, but obviously going for less gates and an earlier exp is better. Hopefully someone more knowledgable can provide an answer I can't see that strat really working in a situation like that, his advantage was minimal at all stages (maybe 1 low health zealot more?), I assume Best had the better eco and could just pull some probes to help defend, while Bisu would eventually have to sacrifice the 2 gates and pylon as well if he couldn't finish the game quick. I mean even if he had not walked his zealots down, I doubt it would've made much of a difference. Although the fight would have been a lot closer and Bisu might even have come out on top pure zealot-zealot, I don't think there was ever a realistic chance he could beat zealots reinforced with probes. Also I don't think pouncing on the sb would've done much either, an empty shield battery doesn't provide all that much value and that would've just been a waste of his time. He needed to do critical dmg, which I think was just impossible there. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
Stork vs. Light is going to be really interesting. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
another trick that might be worth using is just landing the shuttled zealots in front of your army as it approaches to soak up the first few tank volleys without splashing onto your army, thus covering critical space to start attacking together | ||
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TiQ.SinGi
Norway385 Posts
But happy Bisu did. Was hoping for both of them thorugh to the ro8.. ah well. ZerO has an interesting approach with the delayed spire and faster overlord speed. He really is a top zerg these days.Crushing it. I see many favour Larva in the upcoming zvz.. but even though im a larvafanboy I think Zero will take that series 3-2. The rest of ro8 I think will play out like this: Flash 3-1 Action Stork 3-2 Light Soma 3-2 Bisu (My hart wants Bisu to win.. but he looks a bit shaky these days.. he will come back stronger) Dream final: Flash vs either Bisu/Stork | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On March 25 2020 12:27 weiliem wrote: I'll be cheering for Bisu, but this would be a very exciting result! Flash 3-0 Action Larva 3-1 ZerO Stork 3-0 Light Soma 3-2 Bisu Flash 3-2 Larva Soma 3-1 Stork Soma 3-2 Flash Queen your way through Soma!!! | ||
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TornadoSteve
1013 Posts
On March 25 2020 21:27 Kaolla wrote: Man you guys all give Stork a lot of credit with these predictions. He was lucky he had 2 relatively easy groups and made it this far, there is really no way he will beat Light, although I wouldn't mind seeing him win Pretty much this. I dont consider him death meat against Light though, but he clearly isnt the favorite here. Stork winning would be amazing, but it also would be an upset. Same goes with beesoo. If he wins Soma, it will definately be an upset, regardless of his legend status. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On March 25 2020 23:00 TornadoSteve wrote: Pretty much this. I dont consider him death meat against Light though, but he clearly isnt the favorite here. Stork winning would be amazing, but it also would be an upset. Same goes with beesoo. If he wins Soma, it will definately be an upset, regardless of his legend status. Even as a bisu fan, I would have to agree he is facing an uphill battle and would have to get his skills up to par quickly. And while Stork should technically be the dog vs Light, saying he doesn't stand a chance ignores Stork's experience and inherent volatility of the matchup (which is a nice way of saying that P has a lot of ways to make T's life miserable). | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 25 2020 16:40 Kaolla wrote: I can't see that strat really working in a situation like that, his advantage was minimal at all stages (maybe 1 low health zealot more?), I assume Best had the better eco and could just pull some probes to help defend, while Bisu would eventually have to sacrifice the 2 gates and pylon as well if he couldn't finish the game quick. I mean even if he had not walked his zealots down, I doubt it would've made much of a difference. Although the fight would have been a lot closer and Bisu might even have come out on top pure zealot-zealot, I don't think there was ever a realistic chance he could beat zealots reinforced with probes. Also I don't think pouncing on the sb would've done much either, an empty shield battery doesn't provide all that much value and that would've just been a waste of his time. He needed to do critical dmg, which I think was just impossible there. from what I recall, he had 4 zealots to the 2 of BeSt though granted, I don't know what their hp was like. Sure, killing the sb isn't important, but in that situation, it's best that he slowly carves himself out a bigger zealot advantage. He also had 2 sbs though granted, I don't know how much energy they had. Instead, he ran some around and gave BeSt time for his 2 zealots+more to pop out. I'm not saying it was a guaranteed win, but his chances of winning would've been higher. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 26 2020 00:36 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Even as a bisu fan, I would have to agree he is facing an uphill battle and would have to get his skills up to par quickly. And while Stork should technically be the dog vs Light, saying he doesn't stand a chance ignores Stork's experience and inherent volatility of the matchup (which is a nice way of saying that P has a lot of ways to make T's life miserable). Considering Stork's storm-heavy style and Light's fairly weak TvP, I'd say Stork actually has the edge. I think you guys are giving Light way too much credit. He won the KSL4 against a Protoss player who didn't even practice seriously for the finals. And while he's been playing pretty well overall in ASL9, he did drop a series to Brain. TvP is his weakness, and if anyone is well-equipped to take him on in the matchup, it's Stork. | ||
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Miragee
8499 Posts
On March 25 2020 20:46 Brainojack wrote: After bisu held the zerglings i thought he was was ahead. Was he? I counted 20 probes to 15 drones after the engagement, he had his nexus down before the forge, their gas were nearly done at the same time...how much of an advantage was it at that point? (and was losing the shuttle how he lost it or his tech choices?) He was indeed ahead. Zero played an insane catch-up game and recovered well but was still slightly behind when Bisu pushed. Losing the Shuttle immediately made the comeback possible imho. On March 26 2020 01:07 EsportsJohn wrote: Considering Stork's storm-heavy style and Light's fairly weak TvP, I'd say Stork actually has the edge. I think you guys are giving Light way too much credit. He won the KSL4 against a Protoss player who didn't even practice seriously for the finals. And while he's been playing pretty well overall in ASL9, he did drop a series to Brain. TvP is his weakness, and if anyone is well-equipped to take him on in the matchup, it's Stork. TvP may still be his weakness but he has worked on it quite a bit. Saying he lost against Rain who didn't really practice doesn't count for much I think because Rain hasn't been really practicing for quite a while and was still kicking asses left and right. At least the discrepancy between Light's TvP and his TvZ has shrunk. It's not like he is likely to lose against a B-Tier protoss while S-Tier Zergs struggle vs him. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
On March 26 2020 01:07 EsportsJohn wrote: Considering Stork's storm-heavy style and Light's fairly weak TvP, I'd say Stork actually has the edge. I think you guys are giving Light way too much credit. He won the KSL4 against a Protoss player who didn't even practice seriously for the finals. And while he's been playing pretty well overall in ASL9, he did drop a series to Brain. TvP is his weakness, and if anyone is well-equipped to take him on in the matchup, it's Stork. Light doesn't have a weak TvP. It's the second strongest in the world atm. Stork is definitely an underdog. Watch Light in the past year. He's firmly a t5 player right now. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1013 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 26 2020 00:43 BigFan wrote: from what I recall, he had 4 zealots to the 2 of BeSt though granted, I don't know what their hp was like. Sure, killing the sb isn't important, but in that situation, it's best that he slowly carves himself out a bigger zealot advantage. He also had 2 sbs though granted, I don't know how much energy they had. Instead, he ran some around and gave BeSt time for his 2 zealots+more to pop out. I'm not saying it was a guaranteed win, but his chances of winning would've been higher. I didn't rly watch it back either, but 4 vs 2 makes it sound like a big difference while in reality bests zealots were a bit later, so they were probably just about to pop out and I felt maybe bisu had 1 zealot more but it was just low hp. I mean still useful for sure, but I just feel in a game like that the longer the game goes on the bigger the odds bisu loses. Best can just pull 5 additional probes and his eco would probably still be on par, while bisu pretty much loses the game the second his numbers advantage is gone. So yea, I feel he just needed to do some huge dmg, but wasn't able to because he just didn't have the numbers. Maybe i'm totally wrong though, but I feel there was pretty much nothing Bisu could have done to win that game (as a non-AI human player). | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Best v Shuttle: wow, a lot went wrong for Best early on (early probe doing the manner pylon got trapped, another early probe trapped soon after, DTs did nothing), but once the arbiter was out, Sharp’s third went down easily. Sharp must have been trying to stay covered against recall and skimped on covering his third. Bisu v Sharp: G1 and G2 Bisu had trouble wielding a nearly maxed army. G1 especially painful. Best is better at it. But he is so strong in every other way that he scraped by. Sharp showed a lot of resilience, wits, and heart. Zero v Best: yeesh, Zero’s a monster. All these players are terrific so this really was a group of death. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
i am happy | ||
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mel_ee
2448 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
On March 25 2020 04:21 BisuDagger wrote: Zero took a page out of by.Hero's book, which is one of the two Zergs to beat Bisu in a post-kespa finals. by.Hero popularized overpool openings for fast lings and the hydra fake attacks into 6 hatch play. This was Bisu's kryptonite back then and still is. The deceiving aggression forced both Bisu and BeSt into reaver defenses. Bisu's goon/shuttle reaver response was a rather poor one as it not only gambled on not catching scourge hits, but eliminated any possibility of a third or templar tech if the first attack failed. Goons are also historically bad pre-lurker and it was reinforced in that game. There you go, i was thinking the same! The reaver tech did seem to be a defensive knee-jerk reaction to what seemed to be an aggression, which Zero sold so perfectly! Thanks for this extra bit! | ||
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MisterBoba
Russian Federation121 Posts
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TornadoSteve
1013 Posts
On March 26 2020 20:30 MisterBoba wrote: Seem like Bisu vs Flash finals... I do not see Bisu lose to Soma or stork/light. HYPE I do not see him winning any of those guys in a BO5 interesting! | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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TornadoSteve
1013 Posts
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HypnoShroom
United States16 Posts
On March 26 2020 12:36 Bisu-Fan wrote: hi friends i am happy My feelings also. Such a relief that he made it out. He hasn't looked as crisp in ASL so far. But hope he can go god mode vs Soma. | ||
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warandpeaches
14 Posts
Also, anyone else feel a bit uneasy when Artosis kept referring to Bisu as "the greatest Protoss ever"? This is certainly not a closed deal; there are fair arguments to be wielded for Stork, JangBi, and Rain (and possibly Nal_rA and Reach as well). I can understand that Bisu's highly refined, interactive, and proactive style tends to appeal to people more than Stork or Rain's reactive flow charting or JangBi's brute mechanical force, but it's difficult to get around the fact that Bisu's results simply do not make him the clear-cut best Protoss ever in the way that Flash and NaDa tower over the other Terrans, or Jaedong over the other Zergs. There were long stretches in the middle of what should have been his prime where he simply vanished without a trace. The creativity/meta influence argument that might be in Bisu's favor merits some attention. However, a) Bisu's accomplishments in advancing the Protoss meta are largely limited to one matchup (Artosis' assertion that Bisu is the greatest PvP player ever is so silly even without context that it is not even worth picking apart, and given that Best may be the greatest or second greatest PvP player ever (along with Rain) makes it even more absurd of a statement) and b) they are dwarfed by, say, iloveoov's influence on Terran standard play in all matchups, or Savior's on Zerg standard play in ZvT and ZvP. I can understand the Bisu love. His play at its best drips with artistry and flair. His FPVODs are works of art on a higher level than anyone else's except possibly Savoir's, and his screen switching is almost certainly the best the game has ever seen. However, it is simply unfounded that he is clearly the most accomplished Protoss ever. Is his skill level the highest in a vacuum? In some respects yes, in some respects JangBi (eAPM and micro) and Best (macro and timings) have him beat. If you value peak performance well above consistency, then yes, he or JangBi might be the greatest. If you value peak and consistency relatively equally, then it's probably Stork. If you weight consistency the highest, then Stork is the only option. | ||
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MisterBoba
Russian Federation121 Posts
On March 26 2020 23:13 TornadoSteve wrote: I do not see him winning any of those guys in a BO5 interesting! Against Soma/Light or Flash? I think Bisu beat soma easy and maybe Light give trouble but yes if Flash vs Bisu, Flash win all. I think. Nothing to do with balance just predict ) | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
On March 27 2020 05:23 warandpeaches wrote: Quite sad that we lost Soulkey to the ZvZ menace this tournament, and have a good chance of losing Zero to it as well. Most of the creative and intellectually stimulating Zergs are weakest at that matchup. Also, anyone else feel a bit uneasy when Artosis kept referring to Bisu as "the greatest Protoss ever"? This is certainly not a closed deal; there are fair arguments to be wielded for Stork, JangBi, and Rain (and possibly Nal_rA and Reach as well). I can understand that Bisu's highly refined, interactive, and proactive style tends to appeal to people more than Stork or Rain's reactive flow charting or JangBi's brute mechanical force, but it's difficult to get around the fact that Bisu's results simply do not make him the clear-cut best Protoss ever in the way that Flash and NaDa tower over the other Terrans, or Jaedong over the other Zergs. There were long stretches in the middle of what should have been his prime where he simply vanished without a trace. The creativity/meta influence argument that might be in Bisu's favor merits some attention. However, a) Bisu's accomplishments in advancing the Protoss meta are largely limited to one matchup (Artosis' assertion that Bisu is the greatest PvP player ever is so silly even without context that it is not even worth picking apart, and given that Best may be the greatest or second greatest PvP player ever (along with Rain) makes it even more absurd of a statement) and b) they are dwarfed by, say, iloveoov's influence on Terran standard play in all matchups, or Savior's on Zerg standard play in ZvT and ZvP. I can understand the Bisu love. His play at its best drips with artistry and flair. His FPVODs are works of art on a higher level than anyone else's except possibly Savoir's, and his screen switching is almost certainly the best the game has ever seen. However, it is simply unfounded that he is clearly the most accomplished Protoss ever. Is his skill level the highest in a vacuum? In some respects yes, in some respects JangBi (eAPM and micro) and Best (macro and timings) have him beat. If you value peak performance well above consistency, then yes, he or JangBi might be the greatest. If you value peak and consistency relatively equally, then it's probably Stork. If you weight consistency the highest, then Stork is the only option. I think if Stork was a legit top 5-8 player in the post-KeSPA era he would have a stronger case. He's more like t15-20. Bisu is a weaker "best P ever" than Jaedong or Flash. I didn't get to see Nal_Ra or Reach, but he's definitely better than Jangbi (don't forget Jangbi was a ~50% win rate player for a two year stretch, a flat-out mediocre player; take away his win over Flash and you can't say he's better than Kal imo), Best (who as we all know is an inveterate choker), and Rain (waaay too short a "reign"). Bisu v Stork has merit. Off my head, doesn't Bisu have more championships, though? And Stork hasn't had post-Kespa Finals runs like Bisu has, right? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 27 2020 05:23 warandpeaches wrote: Quite sad that we lost Soulkey to the ZvZ menace this tournament, and have a good chance of losing Zero to it as well. Most of the creative and intellectually stimulating Zergs are weakest at that matchup. Also, anyone else feel a bit uneasy when Artosis kept referring to Bisu as "the greatest Protoss ever"? This is certainly not a closed deal; there are fair arguments to be wielded for Stork, JangBi, and Rain (and possibly Nal_rA and Reach as well). I can understand that Bisu's highly refined, interactive, and proactive style tends to appeal to people more than Stork or Rain's reactive flow charting or JangBi's brute mechanical force, but it's difficult to get around the fact that Bisu's results simply do not make him the clear-cut best Protoss ever in the way that Flash and NaDa tower over the other Terrans, or Jaedong over the other Zergs. There were long stretches in the middle of what should have been his prime where he simply vanished without a trace. The creativity/meta influence argument that might be in Bisu's favor merits some attention. However, a) Bisu's accomplishments in advancing the Protoss meta are largely limited to one matchup (Artosis' assertion that Bisu is the greatest PvP player ever is so silly even without context that it is not even worth picking apart, and given that Best may be the greatest or second greatest PvP player ever (along with Rain) makes it even more absurd of a statement) and b) they are dwarfed by, say, iloveoov's influence on Terran standard play in all matchups, or Savior's on Zerg standard play in ZvT and ZvP. I can understand the Bisu love. His play at its best drips with artistry and flair. His FPVODs are works of art on a higher level than anyone else's except possibly Savoir's, and his screen switching is almost certainly the best the game has ever seen. However, it is simply unfounded that he is clearly the most accomplished Protoss ever. Is his skill level the highest in a vacuum? In some respects yes, in some respects JangBi (eAPM and micro) and Best (macro and timings) have him beat. If you value peak performance well above consistency, then yes, he or JangBi might be the greatest. If you value peak and consistency relatively equally, then it's probably Stork. If you weight consistency the highest, then Stork is the only option. I was actually thinking a lot about Bisu and his style the other night after watching Brain play an eerily similar style. I think what sets Bisu apart from every other Protoss I've ever seen is his extreme focus on harassment and army movement to just secure tons of free bases. And he does it at a higher APM than any other Protoss (with the exception of JangBi). It's fascinating because Bisu is incredibly unique among Protosses, and certainly one of the most valuable gems in terms of innovation and games to study. Is he the "greatest Protoss ever"? I dunno, despite some of his flashes of brilliance, his slumps were really really really low. As a whole, Protoss is a difficult race to gauge the GOAT. There were so many of incredible Protoss players, but only a few were able to keep up their consistency, and like you said, no one stood and shoulders above the rest. But I would argue that Bisu is the most valuable player. I do want to make an argument on Bisu's contribution to PvT in 2016-2017 though. At the time, he was the only person consistently opening reaver in PvT as a purely macro opening. Snow did some reaver shenanigans, but Bisu would literally just fly a reaver around his opponent's base while taking a free 3rd, and he did it almost every game I watched. It eventually caused a weird meta shift where Terrans would go fast port for wraiths, and then Protosses began doing gas steals, etc. But he definitely deserves credit for that. Let's be real, though. You hit the nail on the head: Stork is the best Protoss of all time .On March 27 2020 07:56 GorillaPimp wrote: I think if Stork was a legit top 5-8 player in the post-KeSPA era he would have a stronger case. He's more like t15-20. Bisu is a weaker "best P ever" than Jaedong or Flash. I didn't get to see Nal_Ra or Reach, but he's definitely better than Jangbi (don't forget Jangbi was a ~50% win rate player for a two year stretch, a flat-out mediocre player; take away his win over Flash and you can't say he's better than Kal imo), Best (who as we all know is an inveterate choker), and Rain (waaay too short a "reign"). Bisu v Stork has merit. Off my head, doesn't Bisu have more championships, though? And Stork hasn't had post-Kespa Finals runs like Bisu has, right? Stork only has the one gold. He has sunk below the Ro8 in pretty much every post-Kespa tournament. | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On March 26 2020 20:30 MisterBoba wrote: Seem like Bisu vs Flash finals... I do not see Bisu lose to Soma or stork/light. HYPE Hehe, his recent stats tell a different story. But the way that he made it out of that group, maybe its fate Only time will tell. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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warandpeaches
14 Posts
I think if Stork was a legit top 5-8 player in the post-KeSPA era he would have a stronger case. He's more like t15-20. Bisu is a weaker "best P ever" than Jaedong or Flash. I didn't get to see Nal_Ra or Reach, but he's definitely better than Jangbi (don't forget Jangbi was a ~50% win rate player for a two year stretch, a flat-out mediocre player; take away his win over Flash and you can't say he's better than Kal imo), Best (who as we all know is an inveterate choker), and Rain (waaay too short a "reign"). Bisu v Stork has merit. Off my head, doesn't Bisu have more championships, though? And Stork hasn't had post-Kespa Finals runs like Bisu has, right? Certainly true that it is difficult to gauge the best Protoss. That is the most relevant point to glean from this discussion and the one that I was trying to highlight. Best without doubt slots below Bisu overall, but I would not hesitate to place Best's PvP specifically (especially in a team setting) above Bisu's. Bisu is probably above JangBi overall, but JangBi's peak is probably even higher than Bisu's, given the former's two OSLs and the 2008 Proleague for which he was Khan's undisputed ace (he probably deserved MVP over Flash, in all honesty). His trough was without doubt more severe, but it was also a discrete event in his timeline, rather than Bisu's inconsistency issues which continuously resurfaced. I'll also go out on a limb and say that it's likely we have not seen the best from Stork post-KeSPA yet. He has already netted a Ro4 finish at KSL 3 (granted, Protoss was exceptionally strong that tournament) and is a legitimate threat to reach the finals of this ASL. But, then again, there is little use speculating unduly until the results have settled. Bisu's post-KeSPA results are definitely superior to Stork's. But it's difficult to compare within this data set, because of the two years that Bisu spent in the army and the time that Stork spent starting a family and not taking Brood War as seriously as he did before or now. KeSPA-era Stork gets knocked for losing finals...but he made the finals in the first place. Bisu gets knocked less for missing the later stages of tournaments altogether. This does not make sense to me. Of all the Brood War greats, Bisu's Proleague situation was also among the least stressful. SKT always had rosters that were both deep in talent (Fantasy and Best; earlier, Midas and oov; later, Snow and soO) and racially balanced. Khan's roster management lacked considerable refinement in comparison seeing as it basically consisted of getting turtly Protosses together and trying to homogenize them. I'm firmly of the belief that you cannot cherrypick results; you have to take them all into consideration and situate them all into context if you're seriously trying to evaluate performance. This holds true universally, not merely for Brood War. I was actually thinking a lot about Bisu and his style the other night after watching Brain play an eerily similar style. I think what sets Bisu apart from every other Protoss I've ever seen is his extreme focus on harassment and army movement to just secure tons of free bases. And he does it at a higher APM than any other Protoss (with the exception of JangBi). It's fascinating because Bisu is incredibly unique among Protosses, and certainly one of the most valuable gems in terms of innovation and games to study. Is he the "greatest Protoss ever"? I dunno, despite some of his flashes of brilliance, his slumps were really really really low. As a whole, Protoss is a difficult race to gauge the GOAT. There were so many of incredible Protoss players, but only a few were able to keep up their consistency, and like you said, no one stood and shoulders above the rest. But I would argue that Bisu is the most valuable player. I do want to make an argument on Bisu's contribution to PvT in 2016-2017 though. At the time, he was the only person consistently opening reaver in PvT as a purely macro opening. Snow did some reaver shenanigans, but Bisu would literally just fly a reaver around his opponent's base while taking a free 3rd, and he did it almost every game I watched. It eventually caused a weird meta shift where Terrans would go fast port for wraiths, and then Protosses began doing gas steals, etc. But he definitely deserves credit for that. Agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Bisu's playstyle. He almost plays Protoss like a (normal, non-Larva/Zero style turtly) Zerg, where he is extremely dependent on accumulating a series of early game advantages structured around disrupting his opponent's game flow, and parlaying them into a truncated midgame. I can't think of any other Protoss who uses this style to Bisu's extent, save perhaps Mini, but Mini prioritizes individual unit/control group micro and playmaking more (a la JangBi), rather than Bisu's stress on multitasking, misdirection, and disruption. This explains why Bisu has always struggled with midgame pushes, especially against a Terran or Protoss who was able to stabilize early game and get a third base at a reasonable time. It also explains why he is perhaps the best player ever on three-player maps, which are inherently asymmetrical compared to two-or-four-player maps and thus reward someone with this sort of disruptive mentality, rather than someone with, say, Rain's mentality, where you almost feel like he is playing against the game rather than the other person at times. Doesn't stop Rain from inting his armies into his opponent's natural at times at the 110-140 supply mark, just like Bisu... Ah yes, that's a pretty fair point w/r/t Bisu's reavers in PvT. I hadn't given it adequate credit. Although 1-1-1, the appropriate Terran response, kind of proved to be a dead end ultimately (despite the fact that it was extremely interesting to contemplate on paper and highly technical to witness in practice), so I would need to think about this in more depth/rewatch VODs from this era to situate this point fully. As far as Bisu's PvZ goes, Artosis (among others, I'm sure; not trying to single you out, Arty, we love you <3) credits Bisu for single-handedly saving the matchup and, by proxy, competitive Brood War in general. This seems hyperbolic to me, even absurdly silly. Brood War was able to gain traction in the first place (pre-2001) when people thought Terran was unplayable at a competitive level, before Boxer started the myth of Tesagi; Brood War was also able to attain its competitive peak (2003-05) at a time when people though ZvT was unwinnable for Zerg, before Savior proved definitively otherwise. I would need to study data and results and compile relevant statistics in depth for these periods to arrive at definitive conclusions, for which I unfortunately do not have the time at the present. But I am fairly confident in asserting that, no, Bisu did not save Brood War by himself. And if he did, Boxer and Savior did so already, at much more critical points in the game's competitive history than Bisu's. All the same, you're probably still correct to dub Bisu the most valuable Protoss ever regardless of whether his results merit the title of greatest. There are two kinds of genius: one that unfolds something so hidden or unusual as to have required singular insight (e.g. Einstein, Hegel, Bach, Senna, Federer), and one that reveals something that seems universally obvious in hindsight (e.g. Newton, Marx, Mozart, Schumacher, Djokovic). Bisu's solution to PvZ without doubt falls into the latter category (as do oov's build order revolutions). Savior's innovations, perhaps alone among Brood War geniuses, fall into the former category. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On March 27 2020 14:56 warandpeaches wrote: Certainly true that it is difficult to gauge the best Protoss. That is the most relevant point to glean from this discussion and the one that I was trying to highlight. Best without doubt slots below Bisu overall, but I would not hesitate to place Best's PvP specifically (especially in a team setting) above Bisu's. Bisu is probably above JangBi overall, but JangBi's peak is probably even higher than Bisu's, given the former's two OSLs and the 2008 Proleague for which he was Khan's undisputed ace (he probably deserved MVP over Flash, in all honesty). His trough was without doubt more severe, but it was also a discrete event in his timeline, rather than Bisu's inconsistency issues which continuously resurfaced. I'll also go out on a limb and say that it's likely we have not seen the best from Stork post-KeSPA yet. He has already netted a Ro4 finish at KSL 3 (granted, Protoss was exceptionally strong that tournament) and is a legitimate threat to reach the finals of this ASL. But, then again, there is little use speculating unduly until the results have settled. Bisu's post-KeSPA results are definitely superior to Stork's. But it's difficult to compare within this data set, because of the two years that Bisu spent in the army and the time that Stork spent starting a family and not taking Brood War as seriously as he did before or now. KeSPA-era Stork gets knocked for losing finals...but he made the finals in the first place. Bisu gets knocked less for missing the later stages of tournaments altogether. This does not make sense to me. Of all the Brood War greats, Bisu's Proleague situation was also among the least stressful. SKT always had rosters that were both deep in talent (Fantasy and Best; earlier, Midas and oov; later, Snow and soO) and racially balanced. Khan's roster management lacked considerable refinement in comparison seeing as it basically consisted of getting turtly Protosses together and trying to homogenize them. I'm firmly of the belief that you cannot cherrypick results; you have to take them all into consideration and situate them all into context if you're seriously trying to evaluate performance. This holds true universally, not merely for Brood War. Agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Bisu's playstyle. He almost plays Protoss like a (normal, non-Larva/Zero style turtly) Zerg, where he is extremely dependent on accumulating a series of early game advantages structured around disrupting his opponent's game flow, and parlaying them into a truncated midgame. I can't think of any other Protoss who uses this style to Bisu's extent, save perhaps Mini, but Mini prioritizes individual unit/control group micro and playmaking more (a la JangBi), rather than Bisu's stress on multitasking, misdirection, and disruption. This explains why Bisu has always struggled with midgame pushes, especially against a Terran or Protoss who was able to stabilize early game and get a third base at a reasonable time. It also explains why he is perhaps the best player ever on three-player maps, which are inherently asymmetrical compared to two-or-four-player maps and thus reward someone with this sort of disruptive mentality, rather than someone with, say, Rain's mentality, where you almost feel like he is playing against the game rather than the other person at times. Doesn't stop Rain from inting his armies into his opponent's natural at times at the 110-140 supply mark, just like Bisu... Ah yes, that's a pretty fair point w/r/t Bisu's reavers in PvT. I hadn't given it adequate credit. Although 1-1-1, the appropriate Terran response, kind of proved to be a dead end ultimately (despite the fact that it was extremely interesting to contemplate on paper and highly technical to witness in practice), so I would need to think about this in more depth/rewatch VODs from this era to situate this point fully. As far as Bisu's PvZ goes, Artosis (among others, I'm sure; not trying to single you out, Arty, we love you <3) credits Bisu for single-handedly saving the matchup and, by proxy, competitive Brood War in general. This seems hyperbolic to me, even absurdly silly. Brood War was able to gain traction in the first place (pre-2001) when people thought Terran was unplayable at a competitive level, before Boxer started the myth of Tesagi; Brood War was also able to attain its competitive peak (2003-05) at a time when people though ZvT was unwinnable for Zerg, before Savior proved definitively otherwise. I would need to study data and results and compile relevant statistics in depth for these periods to arrive at definitive conclusions, for which I unfortunately do not have the time at the present. But I am fairly confident in asserting that, no, Bisu did not save Brood War by himself. And if he did, Boxer and Savior did so already, at much more critical points in the game's competitive history than Bisu's. All the same, you're probably still correct to dub Bisu the most valuable Protoss ever regardless of whether his results merit the title of greatest. There are two kinds of genius: one that unfolds something so hidden or unusual as to have required singular insight (e.g. Einstein, Hegel, Bach, Senna, Federer), and one that reveals something that seems universally obvious in hindsight (e.g. Newton, Marx, Mozart, Schumacher, Djokovic). Bisu's solution to PvZ without doubt falls into the latter category (as do oov's build order revolutions). Savior's innovations, perhaps alone among Brood War geniuses, fall into the former category. You, sir, are a pleasure to read. Regarding Best and his PvP, his ASL-era mirrors have been his undoing quite often. He's consistently losing offline to other top Protoss, Snow and Rain prominent among them - granted, these two definitely are among the best PvPers in the era, but still, off the top of my head, more than half of his ro16 exits are because of mirrors. Will have to check to confirm. Add in two losses to Stork and Rain in the KSL, too. | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
On March 27 2020 06:25 MisterBoba wrote: Against Soma/Light or Flash? I think Bisu beat soma easy and maybe Light give trouble but yes if Flash vs Bisu, Flash win all. I think. Nothing to do with balance just predict ) Are you talking about pre-military Bisu? Because that doesnt exist yet. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 27 2020 14:56 warandpeaches wrote: Certainly true that it is difficult to gauge the best Protoss. That is the most relevant point to glean from this discussion and the one that I was trying to highlight. Best without doubt slots below Bisu overall, but I would not hesitate to place Best's PvP specifically (especially in a team setting) above Bisu's. Bisu is probably above JangBi overall, but JangBi's peak is probably even higher than Bisu's, given the former's two OSLs and the 2008 Proleague for which he was Khan's undisputed ace (he probably deserved MVP over Flash, in all honesty). His trough was without doubt more severe, but it was also a discrete event in his timeline, rather than Bisu's inconsistency issues which continuously resurfaced. I'll also go out on a limb and say that it's likely we have not seen the best from Stork post-KeSPA yet. He has already netted a Ro4 finish at KSL 3 (granted, Protoss was exceptionally strong that tournament) and is a legitimate threat to reach the finals of this ASL. But, then again, there is little use speculating unduly until the results have settled. Bisu's post-KeSPA results are definitely superior to Stork's. But it's difficult to compare within this data set, because of the two years that Bisu spent in the army and the time that Stork spent starting a family and not taking Brood War as seriously as he did before or now. KeSPA-era Stork gets knocked for losing finals...but he made the finals in the first place. Bisu gets knocked less for missing the later stages of tournaments altogether. This does not make sense to me. Of all the Brood War greats, Bisu's Proleague situation was also among the least stressful. SKT always had rosters that were both deep in talent (Fantasy and Best; earlier, Midas and oov; later, Snow and soO) and racially balanced. Khan's roster management lacked considerable refinement in comparison seeing as it basically consisted of getting turtly Protosses together and trying to homogenize them. I'm firmly of the belief that you cannot cherrypick results; you have to take them all into consideration and situate them all into context if you're seriously trying to evaluate performance. This holds true universally, not merely for Brood War. Agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Bisu's playstyle. He almost plays Protoss like a (normal, non-Larva/Zero style turtly) Zerg, where he is extremely dependent on accumulating a series of early game advantages structured around disrupting his opponent's game flow, and parlaying them into a truncated midgame. I can't think of any other Protoss who uses this style to Bisu's extent, save perhaps Mini, but Mini prioritizes individual unit/control group micro and playmaking more (a la JangBi), rather than Bisu's stress on multitasking, misdirection, and disruption. This explains why Bisu has always struggled with midgame pushes, especially against a Terran or Protoss who was able to stabilize early game and get a third base at a reasonable time. It also explains why he is perhaps the best player ever on three-player maps, which are inherently asymmetrical compared to two-or-four-player maps and thus reward someone with this sort of disruptive mentality, rather than someone with, say, Rain's mentality, where you almost feel like he is playing against the game rather than the other person at times. Doesn't stop Rain from inting his armies into his opponent's natural at times at the 110-140 supply mark, just like Bisu... Ah yes, that's a pretty fair point w/r/t Bisu's reavers in PvT. I hadn't given it adequate credit. Although 1-1-1, the appropriate Terran response, kind of proved to be a dead end ultimately (despite the fact that it was extremely interesting to contemplate on paper and highly technical to witness in practice), so I would need to think about this in more depth/rewatch VODs from this era to situate this point fully. As far as Bisu's PvZ goes, Artosis (among others, I'm sure; not trying to single you out, Arty, we love you <3) credits Bisu for single-handedly saving the matchup and, by proxy, competitive Brood War in general. This seems hyperbolic to me, even absurdly silly. Brood War was able to gain traction in the first place (pre-2001) when people thought Terran was unplayable at a competitive level, before Boxer started the myth of Tesagi; Brood War was also able to attain its competitive peak (2003-05) at a time when people though ZvT was unwinnable for Zerg, before Savior proved definitively otherwise. I would need to study data and results and compile relevant statistics in depth for these periods to arrive at definitive conclusions, for which I unfortunately do not have the time at the present. But I am fairly confident in asserting that, no, Bisu did not save Brood War by himself. And if he did, Boxer and Savior did so already, at much more critical points in the game's competitive history than Bisu's. All the same, you're probably still correct to dub Bisu the most valuable Protoss ever regardless of whether his results merit the title of greatest. There are two kinds of genius: one that unfolds something so hidden or unusual as to have required singular insight (e.g. Einstein, Hegel, Bach, Senna, Federer), and one that reveals something that seems universally obvious in hindsight (e.g. Newton, Marx, Mozart, Schumacher, Djokovic). Bisu's solution to PvZ without doubt falls into the latter category (as do oov's build order revolutions). Savior's innovations, perhaps alone among Brood War geniuses, fall into the former category. Good post. Only thing I wanted to mention was that Snow was in the CJ roster afaik, not SKT but the rest looks fine. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 27 2020 16:01 TaardadAiel wrote: You, sir, are a pleasure to read. Regarding Best and his PvP, his ASL-era mirrors have been his undoing quite often. He's consistently losing offline to other top Protoss, Snow and Rain prominent among them - granted, these two definitely are among the best PvPers in the era, but still, off the top of my head, more than half of his ro16 exits are because of mirrors. Will have to check to confirm. Add in two losses to Stork and Rain in the KSL, too. On March 27 2020 16:01 TaardadAiel wrote: You, sir, are a pleasure to read. Regarding Best and his PvP, his ASL-era mirrors have been his undoing quite often. He's consistently losing offline to other top Protoss, Snow and Rain prominent among them - granted, these two definitely are among the best PvPers in the era, but still, off the top of my head, more than half of his ro16 exits are because of mirrors. Will have to check to confirm. Add in two losses to Stork and Rain in the KSL, too. It's a pleasure if you read someone who contradicts themselves. "I'm firmly of the belief that you cannot cherrypick results; you have to take them all into consideration and situate them all into context if you're seriously trying to evaluate performance. This holds true universally, not merely for Brood War." This overall performance is the reason why Bisu is considered the Best Protoss of all. All three have their merits and are simply awesome players, but Bisu is the statistical overall winner. Points: (1) = Best stat - 3pts (2) = 2nd best stat - 2pts (3) = 3rd best stat - 1pt Total Individual League Championships: Bisu: 5 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze, post-kespa: 3 golds, 3 silvers, 2 bronze (1) Stork: 2 golds, 8 silvers, 1 bronze (2) Jangbi: 2 golds, 4 silvers, 1 bronze (3) Overall Performance across all leagues: Bisu: 436 wins - 230 losses (65.47%) (1) Stork: 478 wins - 306 losses (60.97%) (2) Jangbi: 315 wins - 224 losses (58.44%) (3) Across Individual Leagues: Bisu: 225 wins - 126 losses (64.10%) (1) Stork: 269 wins - 169 losses (61.42%) (3) Jangbi: 198 wins - 111 losses (64.08%) (2) Across Team Leagues: Bisu: 211 wins - 104 losses (66.98%) (1) Stork: 209 wins - 137 losses (60.40%) (2) Jangbi: 117 wins - 113 losses (50.87%) (3) Team League Wins by year: Bisu: 06'-07': 5 wins - 7 losses (41.67%) - exluded 07'-08': 17 wins - 15 losses (53.13%) (2) 08'-09': 19 wins - 13 losses (59.38%) (2) 09'-10': 57 wins - 18 losses (76.00%) (1)(SKT training kicked in) 10'-11': 32 wins - 20 losses (61.54%) (1) 11'-12': 40 wins - 16 losses (71.43%) (1) Stork: 06'-07': 9 wins - 11 losses (45.00%) -excluded 07'-08': 33 wins - 11 losses (75.00%) (1) 08'-09': 25 wins - 19 losses (56.82%) (3) 09'-10': 38 wins - 27 losses (58.46%) (2) 10'-11': 36 wins - 24 losses (60.00%) (2) 11'-12': 36 wins - 25 losses (59.02%) (2) Jangbi: 06'-07': 0 win - 0 loss (0.00%) - excluded 07'-08': 7 wins - 15 losses (31.82%) (3) 08'-09': 26 wins - 10 losses (72.22%) (1) 09'-10': 33 wins - 29 losses (53.23%) (3) 10'-11': 23 wins - 27 losses (46.00%) (3) 11'-12': 18 wins - 21 losses (46.15%) (3) Individual League Wins by year: Bisu: 06'-07': 39 wins - 21 losses (65.00%) (1) 07'-08': 51 wins - 26 losses (66.23%) (3) 08'-09': 43 wins - 27 losses (61.43%) (3) 09'-10': 35 wins - 19 losses (64.81%) (1) 10'-11': 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) (1) 11'-12': 8 wins - 4 losses (66.67%) (2) Stork: 06'-07': 29 wins - 22 losses (56.86%) (2) 07'-08': 65 wins - 32 losses (67.01%) (2) 08'-09': 66 wins - 38 losses (63.46%) (2) 09'-10': 30 wins - 22 losses (57.69%) (3) 10'-11': 27 wins - 14 losses (65.85%) (2) 11'-12': 11 wins - 14 losses (44.00%) (3) Jangbi: 06'-07': 12 wins - 12 losses (50.00%) (3) 07'-08': 39 wins - 18 losses (68.42%) (1) 08'-09': 53 wins - 25 losses (67.95%) (1) 09'-10': 33 wins - 24 losses (57.89%) (2) 10'-11': 16 wins - 18 losses (47.06%) (3) 11'-12': 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%) (1) Peak Elo: Bisu: 2375 (1) Stork: 2321 (2) 54 less Jangbi: 2305 (3) 70 less Peak PvP: Bisu: 2267 (1) Stork: 2193 (2) 74 less Jangbi: 2160 (3) 107 less Peak PvZ: Bisu: 2327 (1) Stork: 2209 (2) 118 less Jangbi: 2145 (3) 182 less Peak PvT: Bisu: 2255 (3) 5 less Stork: 2259 (2) 1 less Jangbi: 2260 (1) Total: Bisu: 13(1) : 3(2) : 3(3) = 13*3+3*2+3*1 = 48pts Stork: 1(1) : 14(2) : 4(3) = 1*3+14*2+4*1 = 35pts Jangbi: 5(1) : 2(2) : 12(3) = 5*3+2*2+12*1 = 31pts What do we learn from this? If you look line by line comparing these players, the margins are close and their stats are unbelievable. But if you take the history of it all, Bisu's consistency throughout his career is simply the best. Bottom line, all these players were simply outstanding during the Kespa period and I honestly had a blast going back and looking at everything they did. What an awesome game! | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
https://tl.net/blogs/536313-professional-non-major-tournament-career-ranking 5. Bisu Champion of GomTV Classic S2: 176 professionals participating Champion of WCG 2009 Korea: 24 professionals participating Sum total of participating professionals from all the triumphs: 200 Comments: Bisu was not only the most decorated protoss player in the major individual leagues, he also happened to have great success outside of it, his greatest non-major triumph being GomTV Classic S2, which was the largest in scale out of all the GomTV Classics (in terms of player participation, because teams like SK Telecom T1 didn't allow their players to compete in the other GomTV Classics). https://tl.net/blogs/535759-five-traits-of-competitive-brood-war 2. Gaming athleticism Definition: Aptitude for playing Brood War at a physical level. The hardware prototype of the perfect Brood War gamer, just like how there is a desirable physical prototype for any competitive athletic fields. Some of the more hardware oriented attributes would include the ability to maximize inputs within a short span of time (a metric that can be somewhat measured by eAPM), having a shorter reaction time, having more accurate mouse clicking abilities, and being in possession of larger than average hand-span to make full usage of all control-groups. How high levels of gaming athleticism tends to manifest within competitive Brood War: Players with innate levels of high dexterity involving the mouse and keyboard are able to hit great levels of micro-management and macro-management even without having the best build orders, or the most dedicated practice schedule towards mastering all the intricacies of the units being handled. I would guess that players who are naturally built for accurate and rapid manipulation of the mouse and keyboard would excel in other genres of video-gaming, especially first-person shooter games. Which is perhaps why NaDa (one of the most gifted gamers from a physical perspective) had such keen interest in playing Sudden Attack (a first-person shooter game) during his time as a professional. Terror[fOu] was prodigious talent known for his somewhat rigid, but mechanically solid mutalisk micro-managament based play during his amateur days, and now is known for his decent aiming abilities when he plays PUBG. Downside of high levels of conscientiousness: Not much I can think of. Although there is a much lower return for being more physically suited for competitive Brood War than some of the other traits, having better physical attributes does not have any negative attributes that tend to tag alongside it, such as extremely high levels of creativity often being associated with low levels of conscientiousness. Epitome of this trait: JangBi. JangBi was a phenomenonally gifted protoss player who was blessed with a quick reaction times, accurate and rapid point and clicking ability indicative of an high end hand-eye coordination, and ability to sustain high eAPM levels even without much dedication or practice. When people discussed professional players with the fastest reaction times, JangBi was always the one of the first names to spring up in the conversation. Stork always said that he never saw a player who clicked units from his gateways faster than JangBi. His natural talents allowed JangBi to quickly possess a delicate handling of all of the available protoss arsenal, ability to pump units from his numerous gateways with only a fraction of the time required for the average protoss user, which in turn allowed JangBi to focus more heavily on his playmaking with his units. While I personally felt like JangBi never allocated his concentration to multiple screens effectively, or had necessary speed of thought combined with his fantastic gaming athleticism, JangBi in my eyes had the perfect hardware prototype for a great Brood War player. Jaedong, another mechanical monster, had hands that were way too small (his hand-span was merely 18cm, which is why his mechanical prowess spiked earlier than most players, whereas JangBi's mechanical prowess remained top notch whether it involved handling a handful of units, or orchestrating a fully maxed out army), while Bisu, another player who stood out in terms of his hardware, had trouble differentiating himself when he focused his play within a single screen. Bisu's unmatched multi-tasking prowess had an element of great screen management and knowing exactly where and when to look next (mostly within the protoss-versus-zerg match-up), which is slightly different from being the sheer physical act of being able to click fast and accurately while hammering away ceaselessly on the keyboard pumping out units. https://tl.net/blogs/534635-adjusting-for-proleague-schedule-inflation 2. Stork 1) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 1: 6-5 10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 13-11 2) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 2: 7-6 18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 9-7 3) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 1: 3-5 10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 7-11 4) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 2: 3-4 10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 7-9 5) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 1: 15-4 6) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 2: 15-6 7) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 1: 11-8 8) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 2: 13-8 9) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 1: 12-6 10) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 2: 5-3 11) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 1: 10-6 12) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 2: 12-7 18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 15-9 13) Shinhan 2011 ProLeague Round 1: 9-12 18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 11-15 Schedule adjusted regular season ProLeague record: 143-103 (58.13%) Comments: Stork's best ProLeague years were from 2007, but his 2005 rookie performance is vastly underrated due to the lack of schedule there was back then. Once we re-adjust the numbers to equalize the scheduling constraints, Stork was already hitting double digits per season in his rookie season. 5. Bisu 1) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 1: 0-0 2) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 2: 2-1 18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 2-1 3) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 1: 0-0 4) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 2: 4-2 10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 9-4 5) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 1: 6-5 6) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 2: 3-3 7) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 1: 6-7 8) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 2: 15-3 9) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 1: 18-5 10) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 2: 7-2 11) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 1: 5-9 12) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 2: 17-2 18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 21-2 13) Shinhan 2011 ProLeague Round 1: 18-3 18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 22-4 Schedule adjusted regular season ProLeague record: 114-45 (71.70%) Comments: Bisu doesn't have many double digit seasons, but what we lacks in number, he makes up with sheer quality in the seasons he was in form. In particular, his performance during Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague was astounding, with Bisu hitting great numbers despite the number of teams participating being reduced (leading to less number of regular ProLeague matches), and once we adjust for the scheduling restraints, we can see that he actually got over twenty ProLeague victories for two consecutive seasons. https://tl.net/blogs/533176-greatest-high-profile-best-of-series-players 3. Stork ![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R720x0.q80/?scode=mtistory&fname=http%3A%2F%2Fcfile22.uf.tistory.com%2Fimage%2F222CC9495846B42328D703) Overall record: 91-71 (56.17%) Record versus terran players: 41-21 (66.13%) Record versus zerg players: 23-29 (44.23%) Record versus protoss players: 29-25 (53.70%) Stork has been the player who participated in more best-of-series, the most out of any protoss players in history unless I am mistaken. This is something that hold true regardless of whether the records are confined to the major individual leagues, or expanded to include major side tournaments such as GomTV Classics or WCG Korea. However, Stork also is the player that lost more within a high profile best-of-series setting, than any other modern day player (71 defeats suffered within a high profile best-of-series setting), most famously for his tendencies to come second place at any large scale domestic tournaments. Due to his large collection of failures, as well as poor performance versus the top zerg players of his era, Stork is often remembered more as a successful loser, rather than a memorable winner. 4. Bisu ![[image loading]](http://pds.joins.com/news/component/gamemeca/201105/11/110511-risell-ts1.jpg) Overall record: 76-50 (60.32%) Record versus terran players: 37-33 (52.86%) Record versus zerg players: 15-2 (88.24%) Record versus protoss players: 24-15 (61.54%) The most famous protoss player, probably in all of history, managed less overall victories within a best-of-series setting than Stork (even if the parameters are changed to just include the two major individual leagues), mainly due to his erratic form, but also managed great success in a couple of key tournaments to make up for the kind of longetivity Stork boasted. Since the MBC Game StarLeague was Bisu's homeground, and Ongamenet StarLeague was Stork's, it may be interesting to compare the performances of these two players in a more neutral tournament that lasted for many years, WCG Korea. Bisu may have only represented Korea once, but he won WCG 2009. Stork on the other hand had longetivity on his side, and represented Korea a record three times (a record he shares with Jaedong), but never won a single WCG Korea title (he came second place three years in a row from 2007 to 2009). 5. JangBi ![[image loading]](http://sccdn.chosun.com/news/html/2011/09/07/2011090701000560500045452.jpg) Overall record: 61-40 (60.40%) Record versus terran players: 25-11 (69.44%) Record versus zerg players: 15-12 (55.56%) Record versus protoss players: 21-17 (55.26%) I was personally expecting FanTaSy, widely regarded as the fifth greatest player of the modern generation of Brood War professionals, to place fifth on this list. However, while FanTaSy was generall way more consistent in terms of qualifying for the lower bracket-stages, JangBi was the best best-of-series player outside of the Taek-Beng-LeeSsang quartet, as evidenced by his two OGN StarLeague championships, as well as numerous second place finishes in the MBC Game StarLeague, GomTV Classic, and 2007 Seoul e-Sports Festival. While JangBi isn't even the top ten ProLeague players of his era (in fact, JangBi has the worst ProLeague records out of the Six Dragons), JangBi was able to mark his name in history with a few short bursts of magic, that mostly had him run circles round his terran foes, with a success rate that even oveshadowed Stork's, generally considered the greatest protoss-versus-terran player of all-time. https://tl.net/blogs/533041-players-with-the-widest-effective-map-pools 3. Stork ![[image loading]](http://contents.dt.co.kr/images/200911/2009110102019971601060.jpg) Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,100 ELO points: 10 Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,150 ELO points: 1 Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,200 ELO points: 0 Due to his extensive career, Stork has by far the most flexibility from a time-line perspective, having success on maps such as Neo Guillotine, as well as the more recent maps such as Aztec. Stork seemed to have a preference for two player maps, which were used less frequently in the professional scene than four player maps, but consisted half of maps where Stork scored over 2,100 ELO points. One could theorize that two player maps lessened the burden on Stork's mediocre multi-tasking, and accentuated Stork's stellar micro-management abilities. 4. Bisu ![[image loading]](http://img.insight.co.kr/static/2017/12/04/700/2na4hhy370596nd070x6.jpg) Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,100 ELO points: 9 Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,150 ELO points: 2 Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,200 ELO points: 2 Bisu is the only player on this list to score over 2,200 ELO points on this list, an accomplishment something even Jaedong or Flash cannot boast. However, his effective map pool was not as large as one might expect for a player of such talents. Bisu seemed to have a soft spot for three player maps, despite it being the rarest form out of the usual competitive maps, excelling on maps such as Medusa, Aztec, and Longinus II. Three player maps, due to its rotational nature and difficulty in splitting the map in half, often lended way to fast paced multi-tasking warfares, which was Bisu's strong point. https://tl.net/blogs/532756-great-players-with-lopsided-careers 5. Stork First ever round of 16 appearance: 2005 Reached the finals in: 2007, 2008, 2011 Final round of 16 appearance: 2012 Overall career points: 78 points Ongamenet StarLeague points: 59 points (75.64%) Possible reasons for the lopsidedness: Stork holds the record for the most round of 16 appearances within the Ongamenet StarLeague, and has appeared in four finals spanning across nearly four years. Even though he has only won a single championship, few would question his claim as the greatest protoss performer within the Ongamenet StarLeague. While he was insanely close to winning the MBC Game StarLeague in 2007, he never quite found his mojo when playing from the MBC Game studios. While he was the epitome of consistency within the Ongamenet StarLeague, his MBC Game StarLeague legacy had much to be desired. While his protoss-versus-terran win rate within the MBC Game StarLeague games is a very respectable 72.4%, his protoss-verus-zerg win rate pales in comparison with a completely lackluster 27.8% win rate, and may have been the root cause of his relatively mediocre showings in the MBC Game StarLeague. Just as a side note, Bisu's career is basically Stork's career turned in the other direction (60 points earned within the MBC Game StarLeague out of a career total of 80 points, which makes him have a slightly more balanced career). | ||
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warandpeaches
14 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 28 2020 03:40 warandpeaches wrote: Wow, this is amazing material. Thanks mucho for compiling/sharing @BisuDagger, and thanks for the kind words @TaardadAiel. If you or another mod would be willing to split this portion of the thread into a new thread, that might be wise, and I'll reply in due course when I have the time over the weekend. It definitely is worth another thread. I'll add one later, purely cause I really want to understand a much more confusing argument. Why people consider Effort > Jaedong despites stats being on Jaedong's side. Maybe it's the same way you put Rain, in the list with Bisu/Stork/Jangbi. | ||
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Miragee
8499 Posts
On March 28 2020 03:49 BisuDagger wrote: It definitely is worth another thread. I'll add one later, purely cause I really want to understand a much more confusing argument. Why people consider Effort > Jaedong despites stats being on Jaedong's side. Maybe it's the same way you put Rain, in the list with Bisu/Stork/Jangbi. People consider Effort>Jaedong generally? I have only seen that for the last 1-2 years of Kespa, which I think is probably fair (without looking at any stats). If you are talking about greatest zerg of all time, I think the discussion has always been Jaedong vs Savior, has it not? | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
Stork is probably the most consistently good protoss ever, and was my favorite player in the Kespa era. But Bisu simply has more premier tournament wins and better win rates. Jangbi had an insane slump and his peaks are nowhere near as long as Storks or Bisus, while he was on an insane streak when he won the 2 last OSLs that is a really short period of time to be on top like that. Similar can be said about Rain, his time at the top hasn't been anywhere near long enough to be in the discussion. Gonna be interesting how Rain, Bisu, Stork and Best performs, or even plays, over the next few years. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
"Since the MBC Game StarLeague was Bisu's homeground, and Ongamenet StarLeague was Stork's, it may be interesting to compare the performances of these two players in a more neutral tournament that lasted for many years, WCG Korea. Bisu may have only represented Korea once, but he won WCG 2009. Stork on the other hand had longetivity on his side, and represented Korea a record three times (a record he shares with Jaedong), but never won a single WCG Korea title (he came second place three years in a row from 2007 to 2009)." This doesn't seem to add up, didn't Stork win WCG in 2007? It's the first sentence about representing South Korea that makes me confused as to whether will still talking about the more important WCG Korea events where Bisu participated more than once or the actual WCG's which he didn't win. He won WCG Korea 1 time as far as I know and Stork came 2nd (3 times in total -- correct number in post). But at the actual WCG event Stork has 1 gold, 2 silvers and Bisu 3rd place or something like that. Not sure if that changes anything all in all, probably not. I'm personally entertained and fascinated more with Stork and I could still agree that Anytime or Kingdom is the best of all or Bisu too for that matter but this sentence I think has to be corrected, either part is true the other doesn't hold. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
It's all very likeable to me that discussions and different narratives (and then added counterpunct data which takes the fantasy away but it is narrative itself just as much) like these are at least possible with Protoss. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Bisu -- Griffith Stork -- Guts | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 28 2020 08:56 PVJ wrote: Oh and just one more small personal note, it is always forgotten but I think might be just as important (at least w/r/t our human condition) that Federer or Stork can be arguably the best of all time not in spite of but exactly for losing that many games too. When someone doesn't just win the most but also loses the most to me that makes someone the most complete representation or manifestation of the greatest exerciser of any endeavour. It goes without saying that if someone wins more out of those final battles the better but of course being 100% in finals either by a) being utterly dominant then tightly wrapped and tossed in sandstorm can also lead you down Savior's path or b) finding niche, an opening, exploiting that to arrive in finals once then win it and once you've been read you're out doesn't necessarily mean you'll be catapulted to #1 either. It's all very likeable to me that discussions and different narratives (and then added counterpunct data which takes the fantasy away but it is narrative itself just as much) like these are at least possible with Protoss. But wins or losses, Bisu has nearly as many played games as Stork and Stork has 2 extra years on Bisu. So they are both Federer | ||
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FakeFin
Germany392 Posts
On March 28 2020 07:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: As a thought experiment, who is currently the best Terran, Zerg and Protoss who have never played in Kespa? My guess would be  Scan or BishOp,  Soma and  Brain | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On March 28 2020 08:57 PVJ wrote: Okay third and last, this is the most subjective differentiation between the two but Bisu -- Griffith Stork -- Guts much like berserk, this story won't end anytime soon | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
On March 28 2020 08:56 PVJ wrote: Oh and just one more small personal note, it is always forgotten but I think might be just as important (at least w/r/t our human condition) that Federer or Stork can be arguably the best of all time not in spite of but exactly for losing that many games too. When someone doesn't just win the most but also loses the most to me that makes someone the most complete representation or manifestation of the greatest exerciser of any endeavour. It goes without saying that if someone wins more out of those final battles the better but of course being 100% in finals either by a) being utterly dominant then tightly wrapped and tossed in sandstorm can also lead you down Savior's path or b) finding niche, an opening, exploiting that to arrive in finals once then win it and once you've been read you're out doesn't necessarily mean you'll be catapulted to #1 either. It's all very likeable to me that discussions and different narratives (and then added counterpunct data which takes the fantasy away but it is narrative itself just as much) like these are at least possible with Protoss. Very similar to Cy Young who holds the record for most losses in baseball, but he also has the most wins and has the yearly award for best pitcher named after himself | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
I think it’s perfectly fine to default to saying Bisu is the greatest Protoss of all time. It’s not as clear cut as the other races, but the burden of proof to argue any other P is the greatest is much higher than it is for Bisu (and we can break this down objectively, subjectively, both, as others have done in this thread). There is no formula for a subjective concept such as “who is the greatest”. Having many ways to look at it is what makes it fun. I’ll add a few more ways to look at it: 1) The biggest knocks against Bisu are lack of OSL success, and being slightly lacking at PvT. Only the OSL stuff is a valid critique in my opinion. Bisu’s PvT is frustrating because it doesn’t make sense that someone that talented should have trouble with the easiest Protoss matchup. And his peak PvT ELO was still only 5 points below Jangbi, even though they played in the same era (meaning they had the same ELO inflation effects). Even without the OSL success, Bisu still has the most individual league titles for Protoss, the best overall Proleague track record, and so on. 1a) Bisu’s far and away the greatest PvZ player ever, and probably the best PvP ever. Yeah, we have Rain from this new era, but given that Jangbi doesn’t even play in the new era, I don’t think Bisu’s should lose too many “best PvP” points for this. That’s 2 out of 3 matchups, or 1.5 out of 3 if you only want to give him half credit for PvP. Still, that’s a helluva starting point considering his PvT wasn’t bad, just relatively disappointing due to the high expectations for his talent. 2) One way to look at greatest is, “how big of a deal is it when someone loses?”. For instance, Flash’s legacy may be best summarized by how big of a story it was whenever he lost. Since October 2009, every single time Flash lost (in BW) was a huge story. Like literally all of them. Even Proleague losses were generally a big deal — notice his opponent was never like “yep, I won”. It was always “phew, wow, I did it, I really did it”. And the teammates of his opponent would always be like “whooooa yeah amazing work man! I knew you prepared well but I didn’t really think you’d win, congrats man!”. The same applied to Jaedong for a long time (much of 2009 and 2010, and arguably as early as 2007 to 2008). 2a) It was usually still a big deal when Bisu lost (even if you started to grow to expect it in the individual leagues). As great as Stork is, I never thought it was a big deal when Stork lost, not even in PvT, his best matchup. It was especially never a big deal when Stork lost a PvZ. You’d never bet your life on Stork winning a PvZ against anyone (even though he was quite solid at the matchup). 2b) As for Jangbi, talk about evidence that how you finish matters more than your body of work. Jangbi may have been the most talented Protoss ever, but he was terrible for stretches of time. There were whole years when you would be more surprised he won than he lost. He didn’t even play that much because he was struggling so much. I don’t think that should be wiped away for two OSL hot streaks, one of which came when non-seeded players were probably preparing for SC2 as much as a BW individual league. 2c) Shouldn’t it count for something that Bisu beat Jangbi in a finals, when both were in their primes? Jangbi’s OSL runs were a second prime for him, I suppose, but it was a different era with far less BW games being played and players’ attention being split toward worrying about switching to SC2. It was a bit of a bastardized time, sadly. 3) Impressiveness is subjective, but it’s hard to argue that any Protoss has done anything nearly as impressive as what Bisu did in PvZ. And his win over Savior, while “just one series”, is probably the most shocking and impressive win in BW history. Subjectively, if Jangbi gets his last second OSLs to rewrite his story (before those OSLs he may have been in the running for “biggest talent to results gap in BW history”), the beginning of Bisu’s story should also get similar weight. In spite of the things I said about him here, I do think Stork is a bit underrated overall. I still think Stork is below Bisu overall, but the strongest argument for someone other than Bisu comes from Stork (and if Stork researches Dragoon Range in Game 5 of that MSL final against Bisu’s, maybe that alone would have been enough to tip the scales). But Jangbi ... gets way too many bonus points for having lots of talent and the OSLs that wiped away literally years of being a below average player in peoples’ memories. | ||
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Ideas
United States8087 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
But remember that the eclipse of BW by SC2 damaged Jangbi’s chances of having that title more than it damaged Bisu’s. Jangbi was getting unbelievable results right then and Bisu wasn’t. Obviously you can’t guess with any confidence what exactly Jangbi would have done with another several individual leagues, but as a matter of probabilities, I expect he’d have narrowed his distance behind Bisu. We’ll never know that his best years weren’t ahead of him. This point is not invalidated by the fact that he failed to make a big impact in the post-KeSPA scene, as at that point, reaching peak skill again is a huge mountain to climb and there are many reasons why someone might want to do something else with their life. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 29 2020 12:07 Djabanete wrote: I don’t have a problem with calling Bisu the greatest Protoss ever. But remember that the eclipse of BW by SC2 damaged Jangbi’s chances of having that title more than it damaged Bisu’s. Jangbi was getting unbelievable results right then and Bisu wasn’t. Obviously you can’t guess with any confidence what exactly Jangbi would have done with another several individual leagues, but as a matter of probabilities, I expect he’d have narrowed his distance behind Bisu. We’ll never know that his best years weren’t ahead of him. This point is not invalidated by the fact that he failed to make a big impact in the post-KeSPA scene, as at that point, reaching peak skill again is a huge mountain to climb and there are many reasons why someone might want to do something else with their life. Jangbi's final two years: * Was allowed to focus on preparing for individual league matches * Played against opponents who were told to practice SC2 so they were in a weaker state then normal * Avoided Flash who never lost a boX TvP for a decade until Snow in the ASL * Went 23-9 (71% winrate) in his two year run Bisu's final two years: * Was made to focus on team leagues with immense presssue " Was made to practice and play SC2 matches * Defeated Flash in the last true proleague Finals * Held the most proleague wins record for 3 years (or was close) including the 2010-2011 season where he won 87.80% of his games going 36-5 and 10-0 in PvT Obviously individual league championships are rated higher then proleague wins+championships, but while Jangbi was doing something special in the OSL, it completely overshadowed the ridiculus success Bisu was having. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
Meanwhile, their best Zerg was Soo. el oh el. This made SKT a team that continually underperformed its raw talent. It's just an unbalanced, poorly constructed team in a Proleague setting. Proleague is all about sniping, via race and maps. If you don't have balanced racial distribution, you can't snipe maps properly. Bisu carried the team for sure and played in a lot of adverse conditions. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Miragee
8499 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On March 29 2020 15:27 BisuDagger wrote: Jangbi's final two years: * Was allowed to focus on preparing for individual league matches * Played against opponents who were told to practice SC2 so they were in a weaker state then normal * Avoided Flash who never lost a boX TvP for a decade until Snow in the ASL * Went 23-9 (71% winrate) in his two year run Bisu's final two years: * Was made to focus on team leagues with immense presssue " Was made to practice and play SC2 matches * Defeated Flash in the last true proleague Finals * Held the most proleague wins record for 3 years (or was close) including the 2010-2011 season where he won 87.80% of his games going 36-5 and 10-0 in PvT Obviously individual league championships are rated higher then proleague wins+championships, but while Jangbi was doing something special in the OSL, it completely overshadowed the ridiculus success Bisu was having. In fairness, Jangbi did beat Flash in the RO8 (2-1, not a BO5) on his way to his first OSL title. That was the first moment in years that it seemed like he had rediscovered some of his old magic. He was probably the only Protoss in the world capable of winning game 2 on Pathfinder the way he did -- beating Flash's 200/200 push in a straight up fight. That's what made Jangbi so exciting and disappointing. He could win fights no one else could, and had all the other skills needed to be the best. He just didn't put it together that often. Your overall point stands. Obviously I agree with it given my prior comments. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Ultimately individual leagues are the main criterion by which “greatest player” is measured. The rest is tiebreakers. I appreciate your showcasing some of Bisu’s achievements during the time when Jangbi’s star was high in the sky — and I sure remember Bisu’s last ace match against Flash — but nobody can say that Jangbi wasn’t gaining ground on Bisu by winning back-to-back OSLs while Bisu was doing other stuff. Jangbi was behind Bisu but gaining (in this artificial contest of “greatest player”) when BW was disrupted, and nobody has a crystal ball to know whether, and by how much, that gap would have closed. Each OSL is a huge deal on a player’s resume. Think of how much greater Bisu’s reputation would be if he had happened to just pick up those two OSL wins with a 2-0 against Flash along the way. It’s not a small deal. (Edit: it was 2-1? Off the top of my head I recall 2-0, but I’m happy to be corrected.) To reiterate, BisuDagger, I’ve got no problem calling Bisu the greatest Protoss ever. Cheers ;-) | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 30 2020 05:23 Djabanete wrote: Yeah, I was gonna say, he beat Flash in one of those OSLs. Flash had some arm stuff going on (although he was gracious enough to say it had no impact on the match), but you can’t say Jangbi didn’t beat him. Ultimately individual leagues are the main criterion by which “greatest player” is measured. The rest is tiebreakers. I appreciate your showcasing some of Bisu’s achievements during the time when Jangbi’s star was high in the sky — and I sure remember Bisu’s last ace match against Flash — but nobody can say that Jangbi wasn’t gaining ground on Bisu by winning back-to-back OSLs while Bisu was doing other stuff. Jangbi was behind Bisu but gaining (in this artificial contest of “greatest player”) when BW was disrupted, and nobody has a crystal ball to know whether, and by how much, that gap would have closed. Each OSL is a huge deal on a player’s resume. Think of how much greater Bisu’s reputation would be if he had happened to just pick up those two OSL wins with a 2-0 against Flash along the way. It’s not a small deal. (Edit: it was 2-1? Off the top of my head I recall 2-0, but I’m happy to be corrected.) To reiterate, BisuDagger, I’ve got no problem calling Bisu the greatest Protoss ever. Cheers ;-) Totally forgot he played Flash. Thanks for catching that! | ||
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