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[ASL6] Grand Finals - Flash vs EffOrt - Page 49

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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fLyiNgDroNe
Profile Joined September 2005
Belgium4147 Posts
October 30 2018 15:23 GMT
#961
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.
Drone is a way of living
Sikcle
Profile Joined October 2018
8 Posts
October 30 2018 15:23 GMT
#962
On October 31 2018 00:19 Jukado wrote:
100 gas is spent at 3.37 in the video.

Damn, I was just typing this at the same time too.
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 15:25:43
October 30 2018 15:24 GMT
#963
On October 31 2018 00:19 Jukado wrote:
100 gas is spent at 3.37 in the video.
edit: i concede
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 15:31:45
October 30 2018 15:28 GMT
#964
On October 31 2018 00:00 Dazed. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2018 12:56 Letmelose wrote:
On October 30 2018 12:50 Dazed. wrote:
watch game 1 more carefully, effort didnt spend any gas on burrow.




EffOrt has 200 gas built up, and spends it all after his spawning pool finishes. There are no other ways of spending all that gas without researching burrow.

Further more, EffOrt explained his build order on his stream, which was already mentioned in the post above.

EffOrt didn't use burrow because he already knew the game was finished without having to use it. His initial plan was to attack with his initial eight speedlings to push the terran units back into the main base, and burrow his lings besides the entrance choke for the main base, and attack the natural with his back-up zerglings, and unburrow his initial zerglings if the terran tried to protect his natural expansion. That meant that Flash was going to be in an economically disadvantageous situation if he gave up his natural expansion. However, Flash botched up his micro-management way too much, and EffOrt just ended the game from there.

Flash knew in advance that EffOrt researched burrow, and asked him that if he didn't use his burrowed zerglings on purpose, to mess with EffOrt's mind. I don't know what Flash had prepared, but his execution was way too subpar that game for it to matter.

...he spent that gas on lair and speed, theres no further spending of gas outside of his spire. i watched the entire game through, i also played his build through-- you cant get lair speed and burrow all at once.


Jukado points out the correct moment in the VOD.
TL+ Member
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 16:40:27
October 30 2018 16:07 GMT
#965
On October 31 2018 00:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.


Yes that was nuts, I was so worried for Effort when I saw the drone count, once he loses some momentum, there's no coming back.

One could even go so far as to pontificate that coming back was from a short loss in momentum would have been...

+ Show Spoiler +
out of the question™

Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5617 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 16:16:20
October 30 2018 16:15 GMT
#966
On October 31 2018 01:07 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 00:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.


Yes that was nuts, I was so worried for Effort when I saw the drone count, once he loses some momentum, there's no coming back.

That is always the case in zvt if you play aggro. But somehow Effort managed to balance seamlessly aggression, droning and teching. We really need some high level player analyse this in detail because I felt like it was one of the most impressive series by a Broodwar player I have ever seen.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 16:40:15
October 30 2018 16:38 GMT
#967
On October 31 2018 01:15 Elroi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 01:07 JieXian wrote:
On October 31 2018 00:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.


Yes that was nuts, I was so worried for Effort when I saw the drone count, once he loses some momentum, there's no coming back.

One could even go so far as to pontificate that coming back was from a short loss in momentum would have been...

+ Show Spoiler +
out of the question™



That is always the case in zvt if you play aggro. But somehow Effort managed to balance seamlessly aggression, droning and teching. We really need some high level player analyse this in detail because I felt like it was one of the most impressive series by a Broodwar player I have ever seen.


Yes we zergs know how difficult it is (it's impossible for me) to sustain that econ and get to defiler, while never losing momentum on his pressure on Flash.

I wish someone would provide some analysis too... Ty2 please? (or anyone else capable)
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Sikcle
Profile Joined October 2018
8 Posts
October 30 2018 17:00 GMT
#968
On October 31 2018 01:38 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 01:15 Elroi wrote:
On October 31 2018 01:07 JieXian wrote:
On October 31 2018 00:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.


Yes that was nuts, I was so worried for Effort when I saw the drone count, once he loses some momentum, there's no coming back.

One could even go so far as to pontificate that coming back was from a short loss in momentum would have been...

+ Show Spoiler +
out of the question™



That is always the case in zvt if you play aggro. But somehow Effort managed to balance seamlessly aggression, droning and teching. We really need some high level player analyse this in detail because I felt like it was one of the most impressive series by a Broodwar player I have ever seen.


Yes we zergs know how difficult it is (it's impossible for me) to sustain that econ and get to defiler, while never losing momentum on his pressure on Flash.

I wish someone would provide some analysis too... Ty2 please? (or anyone else capable)


Yeah, how did he build up to 8+ lurkers for a complete contain and game-ending army while seamlessly teching up to defilers? Even the lost ovie which supplied blocked him right before morphing defilers didn't make the difference.
Sikcle
Profile Joined October 2018
8 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 17:10:05
October 30 2018 17:05 GMT
#969
On October 31 2018 01:07 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 00:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.


Yes that was nuts, I was so worried for Effort when I saw the drone count, once he loses some momentum, there's no coming back.

One could even go so far as to pontificate that coming back was from a short loss in momentum would have been...

+ Show Spoiler +
out of the question™




Yeah, how did he build up to 8+ lurkers for a complete contain and game-ending army while seamlessly teching up to defilers? Even the lost ovie which supplied blocked him right before morphing defilers didn't make the difference.


On October 30 2018 09:49 Elroi wrote:
If you want some more in-depth commentary on this amazing series I recommend Nyokens video. Its only a casting of the games and not an analysis, but it still pretty nice I think:


The pet peeve I had with this casting is that Nyoken clearly knows the outcome of the series while pretending not to so the spectulatory comments are the hindsight in mind: e.g. "even if one or two ultra pops here that would be a problem for flash". . No caster in their right mind would be implying that flash is the one in trouble at the point where effort's initial army melted in the face of defense matrix if they were watching in real time without spoilers. Unconvincing and disingenuous cast by Nyoken imo.
Sikcle
Profile Joined October 2018
8 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 17:09:48
October 30 2018 17:09 GMT
#970
(sorry, accidental double post)
Zaibakk
Profile Joined May 2017
101 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 20:00:17
October 30 2018 18:01 GMT
#971
After a rewatch of this amazing series, I want just to point out some of the incredible mind games between those two legends that I missed on live, focusing on game 5:

@1:53: Effort's drone scout the gas at Flash's base. He now knows that Flash is going for his 111 build.

@2:20: Flash put off 2 scv from gas as usual, as he always done in his 111 version for making a fast CC after putting down the factory. So right now on Effort's eyes Flash is making his standard 111 with fast CC. After that Effort retreat the drone, because the first Flash's marine it's about to coming out.

@3:07: Flash scouts the 2 hatch lair from Effort. Then he decided for an incredible change of strategy. After faking out the standard 111 with fast CC, and MOST PROBABLY seeing the super fast lair of Effort (it's impossible to say if it saw it with the SCV or not, but I think he saw because after that he did not scout the main again), Flash decided to entirely SKIP the CC and go for a very fast starport. This has many reasons:
- Flash knows from game 1 and 3 that Effort will put a massive speedling aggression to him, cutting his economy badly (he even lost game 1 and take much damage in game 3). So in any case he would not gain much economy from the second base with this kind of aggression from Effort. Closing his entrance, he is completely safe from speedling aggression, and he is making those lings really a waste of money from Effort.
- Knowing that, he is also pretty sure that Effort should not gain a big economic edge on him, because he should spend many of his money in zerglings, leaving the drone count lower.
- With a pretty low eco on both side, Flash he is confident that with a surprise attack with super fast wraiths, mass speedvults, and even a dropvults+cloakedwraiths+mines should destroy the already low economy of Effort, while defending from any muta harrass with cloakedwraiths+rines+turrets. He then plan to expand and winning the game easily.
Flash plan his amazing and shows his incredible capacity of fast adapting to Effort's new way of aggroing the 111+fast CC in early game.

@3:30: Effort move his bottom right overlord in the direction of Flash's natural. He then saw the there were not CC, while it should be already started at that time. He figured out instantly that Flash is going to make a fast harrass playstyle with 1 base only. He also decided for an incredible change of strategy. Effort immediately cancel his lair and put down his hydralisk den. The speed at which he changed his mind is incredible. With a lot of hydras he can:
- Put early aggression on Flash, harrassing him and forcing more defences, while delaying his second CC;
- Defend himself from any vults+wraits harrass (his following defence was amazingly well executed), while macroing a lot.
- Outmacroing Flash with a third base, and overcome him in midgame with a fast ultraling style. This is cool also because bio upgrades should come very late.

So, again, an amazing series to watch and rewatch! I hope many other details will be discovered. Those games should be matter of studies for the future generations :D
O.P.
Profile Joined October 2007
Sweden109 Posts
October 30 2018 18:05 GMT
#972
On October 30 2018 09:49 Elroi wrote:
If you want some more in-depth commentary on this amazing series I recommend Nyokens video. Its only a casting of the games and not an analysis, but it still pretty nice I think:


Best commentary so far and by far. Worth watching again.
xccam
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Great Britain1154 Posts
October 30 2018 19:32 GMT
#973
On October 31 2018 02:05 Sikcle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 01:07 JieXian wrote:
On October 31 2018 00:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.


Yes that was nuts, I was so worried for Effort when I saw the drone count, once he loses some momentum, there's no coming back.

One could even go so far as to pontificate that coming back was from a short loss in momentum would have been...

+ Show Spoiler +
out of the question™




Yeah, how did he build up to 8+ lurkers for a complete contain and game-ending army while seamlessly teching up to defilers? Even the lost ovie which supplied blocked him right before morphing defilers didn't make the difference.


Show nested quote +
On October 30 2018 09:49 Elroi wrote:
If you want some more in-depth commentary on this amazing series I recommend Nyokens video. Its only a casting of the games and not an analysis, but it still pretty nice I think:


The pet peeve I had with this casting is that Nyoken clearly knows the outcome of the series while pretending not to so the spectulatory comments are the hindsight in mind: e.g. "even if one or two ultra pops here that would be a problem for flash". . No caster in their right mind would be implying that flash is the one in trouble at the point where effort's initial army melted in the face of defense matrix if they were watching in real time without spoilers. Unconvincing and disingenuous cast by Nyoken imo.

Effort was up in supply and Flash had 2 tanks and 6 marines there, given that nyoken is pretty good and had seen the ultra cavern earlier that's not a strange call at all...
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1779 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-30 21:04:54
October 30 2018 21:03 GMT
#974
On October 31 2018 02:05 Sikcle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 01:07 JieXian wrote:
On October 31 2018 00:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I've never seen anything like game 4. That was defiler rush on 10 mining drones with Effort constantly reassigning them from minerals to gas and back. Ridiculous.


Yes that was nuts, I was so worried for Effort when I saw the drone count, once he loses some momentum, there's no coming back.

One could even go so far as to pontificate that coming back was from a short loss in momentum would have been...

+ Show Spoiler +
out of the question™




Yeah, how did he build up to 8+ lurkers for a complete contain and game-ending army while seamlessly teching up to defilers? Even the lost ovie which supplied blocked him right before morphing defilers didn't make the difference.


Show nested quote +
On October 30 2018 09:49 Elroi wrote:
If you want some more in-depth commentary on this amazing series I recommend Nyokens video. Its only a casting of the games and not an analysis, but it still pretty nice I think:


The pet peeve I had with this casting is that Nyoken clearly knows the outcome of the series while pretending not to so the spectulatory comments are the hindsight in mind: e.g. "even if one or two ultra pops here that would be a problem for flash". . No caster in their right mind would be implying that flash is the one in trouble at the point where effort's initial army melted in the face of defense matrix if they were watching in real time without spoilers. Unconvincing and disingenuous cast by Nyoken imo.


I can confirm you that while watching this game the first thing i told myself is that if effort managed to save his third until ultralisks pop out it would be 100% GG. And Flash was fully aware of that taking in account his eco and that is why he went out as soon as he could. Effort's army did not melt as you say far from it, actually without double matrix, it would have been all cleared up. Flash's army was reduce to a small amount of marines and a couple of tanks which would be of no use against ultralisk, and we know what happened next.

So saying "even if one or two ultra pops here that would be a problem for flash", is more like an understatement than being "crazy" or something.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
October 30 2018 21:45 GMT
#975
On October 31 2018 03:01 Zaibakk wrote:
After a rewatch of this amazing series, I want just to point out some of the incredible mind games between those two legends that I missed on live, focusing on game 5:

@1:53: Effort's drone scout the gas at Flash's base. He now knows that Flash is going for his 111 build.

@2:20: Flash put off 2 scv from gas as usual, as he always done in his 111 version for making a fast CC after putting down the factory. So right now on Effort's eyes Flash is making his standard 111 with fast CC. After that Effort retreat the drone, because the first Flash's marine it's about to coming out.

@3:07: Flash scouts the 2 hatch lair from Effort. Then he decided for an incredible change of strategy. After faking out the standard 111 with fast CC, and MOST PROBABLY seeing the super fast lair of Effort (it's impossible to say if it saw it with the SCV or not, but I think he saw because after that he did not scout the main again), Flash decided to entirely SKIP the CC and go for a very fast starport. This has many reasons:
- Flash knows from game 1 and 3 that Effort will put a massive speedling aggression to him, cutting his economy badly (he even lost game 1 and take much damage in game 3). So in any case he would not gain much economy from the second base with this kind of aggression from Effort. Closing his entrance, he is completely safe from speedling aggression, and he is making those lings really a waste of money from Effort.
- Knowing that, he is also pretty sure that Effort should not gain a big economic edge on him, because he should spend many of his money in zerglings, leaving the drone count lower.
- With a pretty low eco on both side, Flash he is confident that with a surprise attack with super fast wraiths, mass speedvults, and even a dropvults+cloakedwraiths+mines should destroy the already low economy of Effort, while defending from any muta harrass with cloakedwraiths+rines+turrets. He then plan to expand and winning the game easily.
Flash plan his amazing and shows his incredible capacity of fast adapting to Effort's new way of aggroing the 111+fast CC in early game.

@3:30: Effort move his bottom right overlord in the direction of Flash's natural. He then saw the there were not CC, while it should be already started at that time. He figured out instantly that Flash is going to make a fast harrass playstyle with 1 base only. He also decided for an incredible change of strategy. Effort immediately cancel his lair and put down his hydralisk den. The speed at which he changed his mind is incredible. With a lot of hydras he can:
- Put early aggression on Flash, harrassing him and forcing more defences, while delaying his second CC;
- Defend himself from any vults+wraits harrass (his following defence was amazingly well executed), while macroing a lot.
- Outmacroing Flash with a third base, and overcome him in midgame with a fast ultraling style. This is cool also because bio upgrades should come very late.

So, again, an amazing series to watch and rewatch! I hope many other details will be discovered. Those games should be matter of studies for the future generations :D


Thanks for the analysis man, I'm looking forward to seeing more
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
October 31 2018 00:11 GMT
#976
I rewatched this today...one thing I have to say is, even though I don't like BW Terrans Flash is cool as hell. When caster Park asked about his health conditions, he congratulated Effort and talked about how hardships make people into who they are. I'm in camp JD till I die but that was amazing and I have to tip my hat to that model progamer.
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
Starlightsun
Profile Blog Joined June 2016
United States1405 Posts
October 31 2018 01:16 GMT
#977
Yeah I've always admired flash's attitude. It's easy to take for granted how great he is now but he's had many crushing losses too and harsh criticism over the years. Yet he's one of the few that just seems to keep improving his game. Gonna be sad when he goes to the military.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-31 01:38:53
October 31 2018 01:38 GMT
#978
On October 31 2018 10:16 Starlightsun wrote:
Yeah I've always admired flash's attitude. It's easy to take for granted how great he is now but he's had many crushing losses too and harsh criticism over the years. Yet he's one of the few that just seems to keep improving his game. Gonna be sad when he goes to the military.


Flash may have had his fair share of problematic statements or attitudes, but his attitude towards self-improvement has not been one of them. This is what he had to say about his entire situation as being perceived as an obstacle to be overcome:

"I think it is only natural that people want to side for the underdog. I don't even care that much about the Taesagi claims anymore. There will come a time when even I will become weak, and people will miss what I used to represent. So I am always trying to delay that moment."
TL+ Member
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
October 31 2018 03:18 GMT
#979
On October 31 2018 10:16 Starlightsun wrote:
Yeah I've always admired flash's attitude. It's easy to take for granted how great he is now but he's had many crushing losses too and harsh criticism over the years. Yet he's one of the few that just seems to keep improving his game. Gonna be sad when he goes to the military.


It's very confusing for me...on the one hand, I want to hate him, but on the other hand he is a stellar human being
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-31 05:37:01
October 31 2018 05:34 GMT
#980
On October 31 2018 10:38 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 10:16 Starlightsun wrote:
Yeah I've always admired flash's attitude. It's easy to take for granted how great he is now but he's had many crushing losses too and harsh criticism over the years. Yet he's one of the few that just seems to keep improving his game. Gonna be sad when he goes to the military.


Flash may have had his fair share of problematic statements or attitudes, but his attitude towards self-improvement has not been one of them. This is what he had to say about his entire situation as being perceived as an obstacle to be overcome:

"I think it is only natural that people want to side for the underdog. I don't even care that much about the Taesagi claims anymore. There will come a time when even I will become weak, and people will miss what I used to represent. So I am always trying to delay that moment."


Wow I for one have always admired him for the level of skill he has achieved but I now have a new level of respect for him. Very well said.

On October 31 2018 12:18 mierin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2018 10:16 Starlightsun wrote:
Yeah I've always admired flash's attitude. It's easy to take for granted how great he is now but he's had many crushing losses too and harsh criticism over the years. Yet he's one of the few that just seems to keep improving his game. Gonna be sad when he goes to the military.


It's very confusing for me...on the one hand, I want to hate him, but on the other hand he is a stellar human being


I understand why certain progamers are hated but Why would you want to hate Flash? If it's for his domination in BW I don't think that's fair, I believe someone who has achieved a high level of skill in the game we love should not be hated but admired. I mean, he got to be the best and most feared by sheer talent and hardwork, not by showing off ass and boobs.

Or is there something else that I'm missing?
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
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