EPT
[ASL5] Ro8 Flash vs Snow - Page 32
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TT1
Canada10095 Posts
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Sigrun
United States1655 Posts
Besides, when was the last time there was even a map pool that heavily disfavored Terran? Protoss and Zerg have almost always had the short end of the stick when it comes to map balance. | ||
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LRM)VinCi
5 Posts
herO > Rain Snow > Mini Both series will be close call. I mostly hope herO advances becaue I'd rather see PvZ than mirror PvP. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28911 Posts
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
Flash was literally two turrets away from winning on Gladiator. Those shuttle plays forced Flash to move his army back and fourth. Third World was purely Flash being outplayed by Snow's probe/zealot micro in the early game and then the advs just kept on growing from that point on. | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4456 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Trozz
Canada3456 Posts
If the map pool was boring, there'd be less pages. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/226236-god-of-the-battlefield-part-1 | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On May 02 2018 08:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: While I'm generally a big fan of these maps (they produce very interesting games, particularly third world and sparkle), there are some significant balance issues. But it's not about pvt. Pvz is a different story - sparkle has elo adjusted zvp of 30.8% and third world has elo adjusted zvp of 34%. When you get those numbers, especially when 3/5 maps are played on maps with those statistics, it ends up being a big deal. But anything in the 45-55 region, that's really not a problem. (although 4 /4 maps having the same 45-55 distribution would also be somewhat of an issue. ) Maps used for the round of 16 and above for ASL Seasons 3 and 4 were never bad for the terran race according the the data from online sponsored matches, regardless of the match-ups. Things change, and it is not as if the other races didn't get screwed over in the past. Prior to this season (based on the data available from May 2017), the worst was terran-versus-protoss on Camelot (sample size of 311 online sponsored matches), with an ELO adjusted win rate of 47.8%, while the other two races had maps with significant ELO adjusted win rate problems, such as zergs on Fighting Spirit (sample size of 6,002 online sponsored matches) having an ELO adjusted win rate of 40.6% versus the terran race. Statistical likelihood of Flash winning the series based on ELO adjusted win rates against the protoss race for each of the maps: A) WWW -> For example, Flash chances of winning three games in a row based on the ELO adjusted win rate would be 0.462 x 0.551 x 0.503 = 0.128045 B) WWLW C) WWLLW D) WLWW E) WLWLW F) WLLWW G) LWWW H) LWWLW I) LWLWW J) LLWWW A+B+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J = 0.445061 Flash had, roughly speaking, a 44.51% chance of winning the series if he met a player of an equal ELO rating if these happened to be a random online sponsored series. It was a tough set of circumstances, but there's a lot of outrage based on the popularity of the victims of the less than optimal set of circumstances, rather than the actual level of map imbalance according to the data gathered from online sponsored matches. For example when Larva played Bisu in ASL Season 4, you can crunch the numbers in the exact same manner from hundreds of online sponsored matches, and get the following expected likelihood of Larva winning a best-of-five series versus Bisu given the order of the maps (Fighting Spirit, Crossing Field, Gold Rush, Gladiator, and Fighting Spirit): A+B+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J = 0.448426 Larva had a 44.84% chance of winning the 3rd/4th place decider for ASL Season 4 if he met a protoss player of an equal ELO rating based on the data from online sponsored matches. Despite seemingly similar set of circumstances statistically speaking, there was literally zero outage because it is Bisu winning over Larva, which is what should happen in people's minds. Fighting Spirit has one of the best ELO adjusted expected win rates in the protoss-versus-zerg match-up, but the discussion over the map pool issue never took life, and yet here we are several months later, having pages upon pages of discussion over problematic map pools. Maps are always going to be an issue, because there is no perfect middle ground as of yet. However, map balance discussion tends to only pop-up when the map imbalance negatively impacts the players people care about. It is not justice if people only want to enforce it only to those who they root for. Bullshit map pools exist, and they always have, and players have won championships before despite only there being only two representatives of their race in the final 16 (players such as Reach or JangBi come to mind). Flash lost partly due to map pool issues, and partly due to his own short comings (Flash lost a long standard game testing both player's skills on Gladiator, a map that currently has an ELO adjusted win rate that is positive for the terran race in the terran-versus-protoss match-up). The level of outage here is not exactly proportional to the level of map imbalance if the data from online sponsored matches are to be believed. | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina247 Posts
God is dead and it was awesome, ASL hwaiting. On May 02 2018 07:08 L_Master wrote: Hah I got like 90% spoiled when I saw Snow had 5k viewers today logging in. ahaha... maan how dared to enter TL before watching the potential death of God!?, the earth crumbled... | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On May 02 2018 08:18 LRM)VinCi wrote: GREAT GAMES herO > Rain Snow > Mini Both series will be close call. I mostly hope herO advances becaue I'd rather see PvZ than mirror PvP. Amen. PvP is seldom awesome, dunno exactly why.  | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10569 Posts
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LocoBolon
Argentina247 Posts
On May 02 2018 17:52 FlaShFTW wrote: Seriously, all these people talking about map imbalances, as the biggest god damn FlaSh fan out there, I expected FlaSh to lose because of difficult maps, but watching the games, that wasn't the case. He lost because he was outplayed. There were crucial decisions that FlaSh did not execute correctly, most likely because Snow really battered at his mentality with those gosu reavers. Snow played well, stop deflecting and give credit where credit is due. I for one am honestly happy that FlaSh lost so that we can finally have a new champion. And I am excited to see him climb his way back out of qualifiers to the bracket stage in ASL6. Let's enjoy the rest of this ASL knowing that we will have fresh people moving on (except hero and Rain). Couldn't agree more. Flash loosing a series and getting eliminated from ASL is such a big deal, and he fell in such a spectacular manner. Maps are kind of crazy and games were formidable, full of tiny mistakes and awesome things, they didn't felt one sided or rigged at any point. There may be a debate about map balance and it could be fun but not like this, this is the oposite of fun. The second the guy who always win loses people talk about map imbalance? yaaawn -__- , on top of that games where super amazing come on! | ||
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TwiggyWan
France342 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
this ASL Snow bets Flash and all the comments are that maps are imba lol | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10970 Posts
If Flash would have had 2-3 Turrets to shut down these last frew crippling reaver drops... :D. | ||
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