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On May 02 2018 09:06 RealityIsKing wrote:
Stop crying about imbalance.
Flash was literally two turrets away from winning on Gladiator.
Those shuttle plays forced Flash to move his army back and fourth.
Third World was purely Flash being outplayed by Snow's probe/zealot micro in the early game and then the advs just kept on growing from that point on.
Flash was ahead in game 5 until the recall btw
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My opinion:
Game 1: Flash played a cool build that got punished super badly.. on that game you can't blame the map because Flash played the way he played. If he played a normal 11 or 12 gas he could have smashed that FE totally. And I still think that Flash could have had a very good game considering he got away for quite a while with this 14 CC, if not that 2 tank 8 marine drop.
Game 2: This looked very nice and balanced, both sides had a good winning chance. Hats off to both players.
Game 3: Gladiator def. looked like Snow outplayed Flash. I mean the map is quite difficult for terran again (a lot of ramps, small mains, a lot of space to run around etc.) but Flash got a nice lead and lost it due to harassment and good army movement by snow. A lot of mistakes on both sides but at the end Snow took it nicely.
Game 4: Tranzistor, I think is great for this reaver shuttle play, and Flash knew he has to pull something out quickly. I think that if Snow seen the army Flash would have lost, it's impossible to kill mass dragon reaver with this push, especially pushing high ground. :/ Nevertheless, in that scenario we can't really blame a map as players played to it's adventages.
Game 5: This was the game where we really can say "Third World" imba.. The start of the game was regular, could have happened on any map, and Flash somehow equilized. But the longer game went, the more of "3rd world" snow took, the less chance Flash had. Of course it's still great game by snow but.. it felt like Flash is falling apart because of the map layout.
So all in all.. I would say 2-2 was fair.. final game wasn't fair in a sense that "map" sealed the deal.
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What I found kinda funny about game 1 was, that Flash's tank drop was so fast, that Snow's shuttle with the reaver wasn't even on the way to Flash's base and that saved him.
The fact that snow went reaver before obs in every game except on Sparkle also helped him out alot on that first game and as well as on Gladiator.
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On May 02 2018 17:52 FlaShFTW wrote:
Seriously, all these people talking about map imbalances, as the biggest god damn FlaSh fan out there, I expected FlaSh to lose because of difficult maps, but watching the games, that wasn't the case. He lost because he was outplayed. There were crucial decisions that FlaSh did not execute correctly, most likely because Snow really battered at his mentality with those gosu reavers. Snow played well, stop deflecting and give credit where credit is due. I for one am honestly happy that FlaSh lost so that we can finally have a new champion. And I am excited to see him climb his way back out of qualifiers to the bracket stage in ASL6. Let's enjoy the rest of this ASL knowing that we will have fresh people moving on (except hero and Rain).
I think you have to distinguish between different criticisms of the maps. I fully acknowledge that Larva and Flash lost fair and square, despite having wanted both of them to win. My open criticism was exclusively directed at Sparkle when it was horridly and undeniably imbalanced, rendering zerg unplayable. I also complained about the fact that the entire map pool was introduced far too late, which turned into a fixing race against time with the anti-zerg Sparkle and certainly impacted the meta game on this map.
Of course some people only complain about imbalances that disadvantage specific players or races, which is hypocritical if they don't also complain in other cases. I agree that this behavior is ridiculous. But the distinction needs to be made because it is undeniable that what happened with the map pool this season was highly unprofessional and should be deemed unacceptable in future tournaments.
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Snow won Flash because of Snow stronger than Flash.
Game 1, 2, 3, 4: Flash prepared his super secret units. Game 1: 8 marines + 2 tanks, Game 2: Wraiths, Game 3: I don't know but I think it's special too I can't recognize, Game 4: more 10 marines + 3 tanks.
Game 5: both players prepared their strategy. Snow wanted to press early game with 2 gates and Flash wanted to play normally with 1 factory then take CC second. They couldn't finish game 5 quickly so that's game was really equal. Almost time in the game, both they only use 2 bases, the resources same who win is stronger person.
Thank ASL5 organizers and Snow, Flash very much. Starcraft is really wonderful.
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On May 02 2018 23:25 Cryoc wrote:
What I found kinda funny about game 1 was, that Flash's tank drop was so fast, that Snow's shuttle with the reaver wasn't even on the way to Flash's base and that saved him.
The fact that snow went reaver before obs in every game except on Sparkle also helped him out alot on that first game and as well as on Gladiator.
Flash didn't know that his strategy was too good, enough to beat himself. My heart almost was broken when reaver destroyed Flash's units by the time.
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On May 02 2018 23:25 Cryoc wrote:
What I found kinda funny about game 1 was, that Flash's tank drop was so fast, that Snow's shuttle with the reaver wasn't even on the way to Flash's base and that saved him.
The fact that snow went reaver before obs in every game except on Sparkle also helped him out alot on that first game and as well as on Gladiator.
Tbh feels like 90% of 2500MMR P players go reaver before obs. This is specifically timed to defend 3 tank pushes and also puts early pressure on terran. This 1st obs doesnt really help that much considering that if you scout a timing you can die to it anyway.
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On May 03 2018 00:28 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 23:25 Cryoc wrote:
What I found kinda funny about game 1 was, that Flash's tank drop was so fast, that Snow's shuttle with the reaver wasn't even on the way to Flash's base and that saved him.
The fact that snow went reaver before obs in every game except on Sparkle also helped him out alot on that first game and as well as on Gladiator. Tbh feels like 90% of 2500MMR P players go reaver before obs. This is specifically timed to defend 3 tank pushes and also puts early pressure on terran. This 1st obs doesnt really help that much considering that if you scout a timing you can die to it anyway.
Interesting to know. At my scrub level, I mostly see obs first.
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I'm curious to see if Hero is gonna be a victim to the maps. Anyone know how ZvP balance is on Transistor and Third World. I am so hyped.
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What the fuck happened. Larva got smashed and Flash didn't make finals? Guess maps finally worked. Snow vs. Hero should be good ending to this madness.
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Norway28784 Posts
third world balance is bad for zvp. elo adjusted sponbbang rates of 34%. And Sparkle even worse, elo adjusted zvp rate of 30.8%. A lot of the outcome depends on which map ends up being played twice. (assuming hero vetoes sparkle, there's a 50/50 chance of it being third world).
That said, while third world is pretty strongly p > z favored, it's not a map that plays to Rain's strengths. Rain is a macro god with great big engagements. He's not a sair reaver kind of guy. And I have the impression that Hero plays way better on third world than say, Larva did. (Larva being more of a rain type of zerg. ) So this one is pretty open.
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Why are we whining about maps? Artosis said this perfectly
"If Flash loses, doesn't say much about him. If Flash wins, says a lot about him"
Flash is still the greatest pro-gamer in the entire world. If ASL returns to a liiiitle more basic maps next season, I bet he would win again. Lets just be happy we got some incredible games.
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What does elo adjusted stats mean? (Sorry)
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This thread has turned into a circle jerk where everyone is commenting about how it's ridiculous to say that the result was because of imbalance. Still it's very difficult to find anyone after page 10 who even says this.
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People often say that terran isn't slightly favored on the highest level but that troughout the history of the game the greatest players happened to be terran (iloveoov, nada, Boxer, flash).
TO THOSE PEOPLE LET ME REPLY:
isn't it VERY LIKELY that there is no balance problem with current asl maps and protoss players like snow and mini are just better then flash and larva? We can SAFELY ASSUME that they always were better, right? Protoss players were just held back in the past by unbalanced maps that favor weaker terran like flash.
I'll go as far to say: if maps wouldn't have been horrible unbalanced in the past, we'd call 4 protoss players bonjwa instead if terrans!!
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Anyone have the list of protosses Flash faced in his 11 year TvP reign? Really interested to see it.
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On May 03 2018 11:57 Dante08 wrote:
Anyone have the list of protosses Flash faced in his 11 year TvP reign? Really interested to see it.
The record is restricted to an offline, best-of-five setting only, and any online tournaments such as DanJJING StarLeague are going to be excluded from the list:
1. 3rd/4th place decider of Daum OGN StarLeague versus Stork
-> 0:3 defeat for Flash
2. Semi-finals of GomTV Invitational versus Anytime
-> 3:1 victory for Flash
3. Semi-finals of Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague versus Bisu
-> 3:1 victory for Flash
4. Finals of GomTV Invitational versus Stork
-> 3:2 victory for Flash
5. Finals of Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague versus Stork
-> 3:0 victory for Flash
6. Semi-finals of GomTV Classic S1 versus BackHo
-> 3:0 victory for Flash
7. Quarter-finals of NATE MSL versus BeSt
-> 3:0 victory for Flash
8. Finals of EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague versus Movie
-> 3:1 victory for Flash
9. Semi-finals of Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1 versus Pure
-> 3:0 victory for Flash
10. Semi-finals of Hana Daetoo MSL versus free
-> 3:0 victory for Flash
11. Semi-finals of Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2 versus free
-> 3:1 victory for Flash
-------------------------------------------------------------------- Streaming career begins after a hiatus from professional Brood War
12. Finals Sino-Korean Carnival versus Bisu
-> 3:2 victory for Flash
13. Quarter-finals of ASL S1 versus GuemChi
-> 3:1 victory for Flash
14. Semi-finals of ASL S4 versus Bisu
-> 3:1 victory for Flash
15. Quarter-finals of ASL S5 versus SnOw
-> 2:3 defeat for Flash
Excluding best-of-three series, and best-of-five series played in online tournaments, Flash retained an undefeated series streak versus the protoss race for 13 consecutive best-of-five matches, spanning across nearly eleven years.
Unless I am mistaken, this is the longest best-of-five winning streak within a particular match-up (restricted to LAN tournaments only) in the history of the game. NaDa managed 12 consecutive best-of-five series victories versus the zerg race during his peak (the longest streak if you limit the sample to professional Brood War games only), but I don't think anybody even comes close to what Flash did towards the protoss race.
Even Jaedong, who played more best-of-five series versus the protoss race than any other zerg in history, only managed a best-of-five win streak of 11 versus the protoss race (if you include the ASL quarter-finals series versus Stork).
A truly colossal achievement for SnOw, especially since Stork only managed his best-of-five victory in Flash's first ever professional tournament, and BeSt only managed his victory within an online setting.
The only notable protoss player who remained unscathed by Flash's massacre versus the protoss race was JangBi, who remains undefeated versus the terran race within a best-of-five setting (but his win streak versus the terran race is only four series long, then again, I can't think of any protoss players who won five consecutive best-of-fives in a row versus the terran race off the top of my head). A best-of-five series when both players were on form would have been interesting to see.
It is rather interesting that the only best-of-five defeats Flash suffered within a LAN setting over these eleven years were against relatively slower protoss players known for their immaculate reaver and carrier micro-management. Considering the exact opposite of that style is Bisu, known for his faster paced arbiter-centric style, perhaps these players had a stylistic mismatch on top of Bisu not being exactly godlike at the protoss-versus-terran match-up.
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On May 03 2018 05:38 DexLy wrote:
This thread has turned into a circle jerk where everyone is commenting about how it's ridiculous to say that the result was because of imbalance. Still it's very difficult to find anyone after page 10 who even says this.
Let's take a look at a single page, 24 (admittedly probably one of the higher-density ones).
On May 01 2018 21:31 gravity wrote:
Great series, sad Flash lost though. Maps were unfavourable but he probably could have won if he played a little better.
On May 01 2018 21:31 Mnijykmirl wrote:
doesn't it just seem like a great terran player just lost due to maps more than anything else? snow played very well but it felt like I just watched the true grandmaster get taken down because of an unfair fight
On May 01 2018 21:33 Gorsameth wrote:
Stacking the maps to the max to defeat Flash is 'a taste of their own medicine"?
On May 01 2018 21:32 Essbee wrote:
Feels bad that they had to rely on unfair maps to completely annihilate terran (flash)
On May 01 2018 21:31 KobraKay wrote:No its not. Next season BS maps wont help toss 
On May 01 2018 21:32 ilikeredheads wrote:
afreeca: mission accomplished!! muhahahahahaha
Kindly stop spreading your false narratives.
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snow could win flash in Gladiator.So it's a prove that snow is a great competitor
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EPT
