EPT
[ASL4] Ro16 Group B
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 16:53 BLinD-RawR wrote: also good to read up on these http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/193354-trans-learn-to-watch-zvz-by-shark-part1 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/193591-trans-learn-to-watch-zvz-by-shark-part2 | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 11:47 reminisce12 wrote: craving for a hive tech zvz same but if we don't get one, at least take this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrdaQneToLc&feature=youtu.be&t=637 | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On September 26 2017 12:25 Alpha-NP- wrote: I hope Effort advances because I think he has a small chance against Flash. The grudge match between Shine and Larva is gonna be entertaining as fack. Effort and larva | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Poll: Rock–paper–scissors, who will win? Shine & EffOrt (8) Larva & EffOrt (6) EffOrt & hero (6) hero & Shine (3) Larva & hero (3) Shine & Larva (2) 28 total votes Your vote: Rock–paper–scissors, who will win? (Vote): Shine & Larva | ||
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defuzas
248 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/lOfQK0q.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/n9AfxkW.jpg) Effort will advance first, Shine will advance second CONFIRMED. | ||
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THE Sliggy
Australia65 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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RJGooner
United States2070 Posts
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oEkY
Germany649 Posts
Shine > Larva Effort > Hero Effort > Shine Hero > Larva Hero > Shine But my mind tells me Shine/ Larva will advance... Guess both will be wrong (as usual) | ||
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Ubersturmfuhrer
Finland206 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
Alphabetic order: 1) Effort 2) Hero 3) Larva 4) Shine length of names: 6) Effort 4) Hero 5) Larva 6) Shine Sum: 7) Effort 6) Hero 8) Larva 10) Shine So I predict #1 Shine, #2 Larva | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 26 2017 11:50 BLinD-RawR wrote: same but if we don't get one, at least take this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrdaQneToLc&feature=youtu.be&t=637 Thank you for this, what a crazy game! Here's to hope most ZvZs on Gold Rush end up this way :p | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 16:48 Ej_ wrote: Thank you for this, what a crazy game! Here's to hope most ZvZs on Gold Rush end up this way :p also good to read up on these http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/193354-trans-learn-to-watch-zvz-by-shark-part1 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/193591-trans-learn-to-watch-zvz-by-shark-part2 | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On September 26 2017 11:50 BLinD-RawR wrote: same but if we don't get one, at least take this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrdaQneToLc&feature=youtu.be&t=637 Shine got rekted. I don't think I have ever seen hydras get plagued and mutas get ensnared before. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 17:01 usopsama wrote: Shine got rekted. I don't think I have ever seen hydras get plagued and mutas get ensnared before. from a scale of common to never before, mutas getting ensnared would rank on uncommon, its a natural progression to get a queen to ensnare if a game actually went that long, essential even. but I can't recall seeing a muta getting tricolor'd(ensare,plague and acid spore) enjoy this game too | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
On September 26 2017 17:06 BLinD-RawR wrote: but I can't recall seeing a muta getting tricolor'd(ensare,plague and acid spore) enjoy this game too There was a game that Jaedong lost against an Airforce Ace zerg in Proleague which featured triple-goo'ed mutas. Edit: I think it was this one. Can't check now (at work): | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 17:45 O.P. wrote: There was a game that Jaedong lost against an Airforce Ace zerg in Proleague which featured triple-goo'ed mutas. Edit: I think it was this one. Can't check now (at work): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1rP4f-YE_I "an airforce ace zerg" funny name for YellOw | ||
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
On September 26 2017 11:46 FlaShFTW wrote: remember to post yourselves flipping coins to predict the winners! let me know what you get! I got larva and shine. Shine > Larva Effort < Hero Shine > Hero Larva > Effort Hero < Effort | ||
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Ubersturmfuhrer
Finland206 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 26 2017 18:10 BLinD-RawR wrote: "an airforce ace zerg" funny name for YellOw Haha. I wondered who this airforce ace zerg was for a second then saw the video's title lol. Now if this was only a round robin for the possibility of zvzvzvzvzvzvzvzvzvzvz | ||
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radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
 Otherrwise Effort EZ. Second spot hmmm.... | ||
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Wonk
546 Posts
hype! ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/M37WhMs.jpg) | ||
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
On September 26 2017 18:10 BLinD-RawR wrote: funny name for YellOw Doing my best to remember. If you don't like it you can bite me. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 18:26 O.P. wrote: Doing my best to remember. If you don't like it you can bite me. sorry not into that kind of stuff + Show Spoiler + j/k no hate | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 26 2017 18:23 Wonk wrote: somebody once said zvz was a knife fight in a phonebooth, so tonight's games should be the all-zerg phonebooth knifefighting championships. hype! This art is incredible! :O:O:O | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
Whose arm is the one pointing out of the booth on the bottom tho? | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 26 2017 18:56 Ej_ wrote: Whose arm is the one pointing out of the booth on the bottom tho? There's a reason why these guys have high apms | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
Short, but fun. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
On September 26 2017 18:56 Ej_ wrote: Whose arm is the one pointing out of the booth on the bottom tho? i have never claimed that zvz makes sense on any level | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:07 Wonk wrote: i have never claimed that zvz makes sense on any level zvz makes more sense than pvp | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
DAT FUCKING POSING actually really impressive. Seems like he's settled in and not nervous anymore. He looked great! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Drensa
23 Posts
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
 nooo | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:23 Drensa wrote: Wow i'm away for 5 minutes and it's over? What happened? lol hi mr new to bw :^) | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:23 Drensa wrote: Wow i'm away for 5 minutes and it's over? What happened? lol 9pool vs 9pool, Larva sneaked lings around Shine's OLs and rekt drones | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
But I like him, please win next one as well! | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:25 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: does the runner-up of this group play Flash in Ro8? or the drawing is not known yet? i think B will go to the other side of the bracket. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:26 FlaShFTW wrote: i think B will go to the other side of the bracket. aight thanks! | ||
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Akara12345
164 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:33 Akara12345 wrote: This is a lot of people watching a 4-Zerg group. Because it is awesome. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On September 26 2017 14:03 usopsama wrote: + Show Spoiler + Effort will advance first, Shine will advance second CONFIRMED. I doubt Effort can come back. The random result is wrong. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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odeSSa
Sweden198 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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juuust
Finland43 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:39 usopsama wrote: WTF. Effort is slightly winning That extra hatch made all the difference. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
Surprised this game is still going. Not a bad come back to keep up. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
now hero is mining his 3rd gas with 1 drone while effort's been fully mining his 3rd gas for like 3-4 mins -_-. | ||
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juuust
Finland43 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
I'm glad Effort won. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:44 Alpha-NP- wrote: It looked like Hero had 4 drones on gas in his main and first expo... I'm glad Effort won. You get slightly more efficient mining with 4 drones over 3. There are very few geysers that provide 100% efficiency with only 3 (if any? I'm not sure, I don't know the exact science behind it). | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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EatingBomber
1017 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:49 BigFan wrote: Let's go Larva! not gonna happen. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I believe! | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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StimD
Norway738 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
I don't know what it is. | ||
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juuust
Finland43 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:52 StimD wrote: Tastosis is so much blabbering, wish they focused more on the actual game Never watched them for the exact reason | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
LARVA >>>>>>>>>>>>> FLASH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ALLL | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
What were you saying? ;> | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
GG FLASH, GIVE UP NOW | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
haha x2 | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
Taking out that Pool, Ouch! | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
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Drensa
23 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:55 FlaShFTW wrote: LARVA YOU GENUIS SNIPES THE POOL but the game was over when effort couldnt get to larva's main before his sunk finished  . larva already planned that entire scenario in his head beforehand, he knew exactly what to do. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
Either way, pretty impressive play from larva. | ||
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DarkSaieden
South Africa254 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:44 FlaShFTW wrote: BO win even with messing up really shows why BOs matter so much in this matchup. I don't think effort messed up, nor that this was a BO win. Hero did what he needed to do to try and equalize by hovering over the eggs with scourge with his timing advantage. Effort defended really well, despite there being almost nothing he could do to prevent those mutas being hit once the scourge were in position, and he could've lost a lot more. In the end, effort just had much better muta/scourge control overall. | ||
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pinkbowtie1
23 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
The one player I wanted to see get out of this group. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On September 26 2017 19:58 TT1 wrote: but the game was over when effort couldnt get to larva's main before his sunk finished . larva already planned that entire scenario in his head beforehand, he knew exactly what to do.true but its still incredibly smart to then just flood lings after that. he was going to win 99.9% of the time, might as well make it 100% for 0 risk. still though, great planning from larva. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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CosmicAC
United States238 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
he streams for stretches of like 17 hours and when he does he is either playing high-skilled players or obsing or just watching other player's games the fact how well calculated his decisions shows ton of experience already now really excited for him to step up on big stage | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:01 Greg_J wrote: He built the first sunken and I thought it was a mistake. Waste of minerlas/drone. But the second one was made after the attack was on the way and won him the game. Good scouting? Just knew Efforst play style? Effort had a lot of lings. yea i also thought that was a bad decision (without knowing what his plan was), luckily effort played exactly into the scenario he practiced for once he saw effort's lings heading for his base he basically went on auto pilot mode | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:05 Greg_J wrote: He acts the fool but does his homework. There's more to the eye than you first think. I read that in my wise old monk voice. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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GTR
51453 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:15 Greg_J wrote: My streamm died. All I know is hero won. At least Shine has a job to go back to. lmao, at least we get to have good obsing now everyone wins!! | ||
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:15 GTR wrote: the fairy tale is over Cannot happen every season, otherwise it would not be a fairy tale. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:12 VioleTAK wrote: Wow they're really not even casting the game this time... I switched to Korean. Good decision. The English casting is godawful. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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RedW4rr10r
Switzerland746 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:16 usopsama wrote: Good decision. The English casting is godawful. you can always watchin esportsjohn and me :D play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish2 c: come watch us! we're actually analyzing the games. | ||
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:12 VioleTAK wrote: Wow they're really not even casting the game this time... I switched to Korean. Good idea, will do too for next games. I had just turned the stream off in frustration. Every fucking game some very mediocre joke into 5 minutes of hysterical laughing and repeating and overplaying that one joke ad nauseam. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:16 usopsama wrote: Good decision. The English casting is godawful. You can always tune into the ENG2 stream where FlashFTW and I attempt to analyze how ZvZ works . | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:17 RedW4rr10r wrote: OMG TASTOSIS!!! Please take your job seriously and stop laughing for over a minute, instead focus on the game and cast it as best as you can!!! I couldn't bear it anymore and had to change to the korean stream. Although I don't understand anything, they hype the matches from its beginning to the end! Korean streams are fantastic. Their energy is unreal and better than any other casting imo. They were the reason I got hooked into watching BW in the first place. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:17 TT1 wrote: ill be really really sad if effort loses, imo larva and effort are both players that have the POTENTIAL to beat flash in a bo5 (especially with the current asl map pool) I would also like EffOrt to advance. Agree, an EffOrt vs Flash matchup is a possibility based on how they draw for the Ro8. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:17 TT1 wrote: ill be really really sad if effort loses, imo larva and effort are both players that have the POTENTIAL to beat flash in a bo5 (especially with the current asl map pool) Flash vs Larva would be a freaking awesome final | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:19 BigFan wrote: Korean streams are fantastic. Their energy is unreal and better than any other casting imo. They were the reason I got hooked into watching BW in the first place. ya same for me. dunno why i even gave tastosis a shot this season... literally 0 hype in all the games i have watched. i want the gomtv tasteless back | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:21 Dante08 wrote: Flash vs Larva would be a freaking awesome final yea, last time i watched flash vs effort play customs effort ended up beating him 4-3. games were on the current asl map pool too. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
Seriously guys. Joking around and having fun is nice to have in a cast, but it shouldn't be the main focus until the point where it is unbearable to listen to the cast. We get it, you are best buddies and hence laugh a lot together. but your actual job is to cast the game. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
win this and then I am satisfied with the night. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:21 TRAP[yoo] wrote: ya same for me. dunno why i even gave tastosis a shot this season... literally 0 hype in all the games i have watched. i want the gomtv tasteless back You can always try the other english stream if you want to listen to english casters. For me though, I've always liked Korean and tastosis kinda ran their course during the SCII days. At this point, I tune in to see interview translations and because afreeca videos lag so I'm forced to use youtube otherwise KR all the way! (Sayle is the only exception). | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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RedW4rr10r
Switzerland746 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:19 BigFan wrote: Korean streams are fantastic. Their energy is unreal and better than any other casting imo. They were the reason I got hooked into watching BW in the first place. Yes, same here. When I first discovered the korean scene and therefore the korean casts, I was totally stunned. They're doing such an amazing job! And yea, of course we shouldn't forget FlashFTW's and EsportsJohn's efforts in casting the games as well In fact, I mostly watched their stream for most of this season's games  (but right now I need the korean's energy to recover from that awful Tastosis cast). | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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GTR
51453 Posts
he didn't even attack with them, just moved them through and got lings to put in free pot shots. | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
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aya888888
29 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:26 Ares[Effort] wrote: ZvZ is such bullshit biggest effort fan right here | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
so sad, i think hes the best zerg in zvp/zvt | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Patch the game blizzard. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
this is why you don't pick a 4th zerg into your group I guess | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:29 usopsama wrote: You don't need effort to shine like a hero in zvz. wp | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:29 usopsama wrote: You don't need effort to shine like a hero in zvz. We can get Larva in this sentence | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
Tricky, after all they come first in ZvZ. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
You just need better larva management. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Larva didn't need effort to shine like a hero. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:32 chrisolo wrote: I don't understand why EffOrt hasn't sacced his natural in order to try to survive? I mean yea losing the nat is a huge disadvantage, but with the poor effort (haha pun) rescuing the natural and drilling without doing anything with the drones, he would have had more of a chance winning the game, when he'd sacced the nat.. especially after he scouted no expo for hero and saw his creep with his ovi, he knew what hero was doing | ||
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
However, I can see why some people get annoyed by them. They can carry on sometimes, like when there's attacks and such going on in the game. Either way, happy Larva got through, and once again 1-1 in picks. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:34 orvinreyes wrote: Dang missed the series... what exactly happened to effort? I was hoping for him to challenge Flash for the title effort went 12 hatch, hero went 9 pool speed on close spawns. Result was EffOrt trying to keep his exp alive with bad drone drills into eventual gg. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:35 NoS-Craig wrote: Each to their own Alpha. I'm loving the Tastosis casting. Always enjoyed those two. However, I can see why some people get annoyed by them. They do carry on sometimes when there's attacks going on and such in the game. Either way, happy Larva got through, and once again 1-1 in picks. ZvZ is over in a heartbeat, and they were talking about nonsense as the core action of the games were going on. I also like them, but this cast felt completely unprofessional. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Sucks for EffOrt tho. | ||
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bigmetazltank
34 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:33 TT1 wrote: especially after he scouted no expo for hero and saw his creep with his ovi, he knew what hero was doing Effort seems to walk into rakes pretty often. I distinctly remember Stats cheesing Effort with a 4 gate goon rush that Effort had enough intel to sniff out and prepare for. Instead he did just about nothing and got his ass busted from the first wave. | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:37 Letmelose wrote: The players (EffOrt, and BeSt) who enjoyed the greatest success against Flash in sponsored games ever since his return to the Brood War scene are now all out. I wonder if anyone will rise up to the challenge, now that arguably the greatest threats for Flash are all gone. The greatest threats for Flash are Larva and Rain :-) | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:27 Foxxan wrote: zvz is so bullshit. Patch the game blizzard. no | ||
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Mrwl
Sweden339 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:40 Mrwl wrote: Great casting FlashFTW and EsportsJohn, informative and educational thank you <3 | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:37 Letmelose wrote: The players (EffOrt, and BeSt) who enjoyed the greatest success against Flash in sponsored games ever since his return to the Brood War scene are now all out. I wonder if anyone will rise up to the challenge, now that arguably the greatest threats for Flash are all gone. Everyone can beat terrans so easily now, except flash, and when threats like effort and best get eliminated before even having a chance to face him, you'll get another easy title for flash. Hero could reach the finals now if he avoids flash, and just face him there with absolutely NO chance of beating him. Ugh. At least we still have larva, and I also believe in stork to be honest. If he cares, I think he could win, but he needs to care and practice. Other than that, MAYBE shuttle because of how good he is at the moment? But that's a stretch. And as much as I like killer now, I don't think he stands a chance whatsoever vs flash in a bo5. This is really looking like an easy title for flash. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:39 VioleTAK wrote: The greatest threats for Flash are Larva and Rain :-) All-time sponsored match statistics: EffOrt versus Flash: 114-159 (41.76%) BeSt versus Flash: 76-108 (41.30%) Rain versus Flash: 26-37 (41.27%) Larva versus Flash: 131-295 (30.75%) | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:43 Letmelose wrote: All-time sponsored match statistics: EffOrt versus Flash: 114-159 (41.76%) BeSt versus Flash: 76-108 (41.30%) Rain versus Flash: 26-37 (41.27%) Larva versus Flash: 131-295 (30.75%) who have the highest win percentage against flash? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:43 Letmelose wrote: All-time sponsored match statistics: EffOrt versus Flash: 114-159 (41.76%) BeSt versus Flash: 76-108 (41.30%) Rain versus Flash: 26-37 (41.27%) Larva versus Flash: 131-295 (30.75%) Do you have the most recent ones? All-time is probably not a good idea seeing as the players' motivation and skills and such change so drastically. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
We have had awesome casters quit before because of abuse and complaints when a lot of people really enjoyed their work and many people really missed them when they were gone. We should learn from our mistakes as a community and also the casters themselves should analyze their own performance and consider if they can improve. I thank everyone that is casting and hope we continue to have good choices in the future. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:39 VioleTAK wrote: The greatest threats for Flash are Larva and Rain :-) I would say Bisu JD SK.. Larva maybe Rain loves Flash too much to beat him | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:44 FlaShFTW wrote: who have the highest win percentage against flash? EffOrt. Even if it is not all-time, this month's statistics is not all that good for Larva. Larva versus Flash this month: 9-26 (25.71%) EffOrt versus Flash this month: 17-18 (48.57%) | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:46 Greg_J wrote: We need to be careful complaining too much about casters. Because they do nothing but add content that you don't have to listen to anyway if you don’t like it. There are other options out there and if you really don’t like the official English stream watch the Korean or FlashFTW streams. I understand the criticism of Artosis and Tasteless because they don't always sound very professional. Entertainment is completely subjective so you should just watch what you enjoy in my opinion. We have had awesome casters quit before because of abuse and complaints when a lot of people really enjoyed their work and many people really missed them when they were gone. We should learn from our mistakes as a community and also the casters themselves should analyze their own performance and consider if they can improve. I thank everyone that is casting and hope we continue to have good choices in the future. I believe the criticism so far may be warranted if they are indeed ignoring the games as is implied, however I also agree that entertainment is subjective so if someone doesn't like a casting style, best to just move to another stream then. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:46 Greg_J wrote: We need to be careful complaining too much about casters. Because they do nothing but add content that you don't have to listen to anyway if you don’t like it. There are other options out there and if you really don’t like the official English stream watch the Korean or FlashFTW streams. I understand the criticism of Artosis and Tasteless because they don't always sound very professional. Entertainment is completely subjective so you should just watch what you enjoy in my opinion. We have had awesome casters quit before because of abuse and complaints when a lot of people really enjoyed their work and many people really missed them when they were gone. We should learn from our mistakes as a community and also the casters themselves should analyze their own performance and consider if they can improve. I thank everyone that is casting and hope we continue to have good choices in the future. Well said.. I like tastosis too so it is subjective It is fine though to share one's opinion in a forum, just dont harass the casters | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
rip hes out. flash vs rain/larva right now for the best shot of taking him out. | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:46 Greg_J wrote: We need to be careful complaining too much about casters. Because they do nothing but add content that you don't have to listen to anyway if you don’t like it. There are other options out there and if you really don’t like the official English stream watch the Korean or FlashFTW streams. I understand the criticism of Artosis and Tasteless because they don't always sound very professional. Entertainment is completely subjective so you should just watch what you enjoy in my opinion. We have had awesome casters quit before because of abuse and complaints when a lot of people really enjoyed their work and many people really missed them when they were gone. We should learn from our mistakes as a community and also the casters themselves should analyze their own performance and consider if they can improve. I thank everyone that is casting and hope we continue to have good choices in the future. Word, man. I usually enjoy Tastosis (actually, ASL S2 and their casting is what brought me back to watching Broodwar - I had stopped for like 8 years), but I see where people have grounds for complaint. They sometimes don't really pay attention to the games and miss important stuff, like scouts spotting backstabbing squads and such. But that is no reason to be abusively criticizing, so I guess criticism should be just informative - "these guys do this and that, so if that's your style, give them a go, otherwise watch FlaShFTW or korean casting like I do". There is an off chance that Tastosis might even need the feedback, though they've been around for so long I don't really think they would change their style now. On this note, the dissociation between obsing and casting is sometimes freaking me out. There's dozens of times I was shouting "COME ON TASTELESS SHOW ME WHAT YOU MEAN DON'T JUST SHOW ME PLAYER A's MINERAL LINE" and then I realize the obs is someone else and has something different in mind. :D | ||
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:46 Greg_J wrote: We need to be careful complaining too much about casters. Because they do nothing but add content that you don't have to listen to anyway if you don’t like it. There are other options out there and if you really don’t like the official English stream watch the Korean or FlashFTW streams. I understand the criticism of Artosis and Tasteless because they don't always sound very professional. Entertainment is completely subjective so you should just watch what you enjoy in my opinion. We have had awesome casters quit before because of abuse and complaints when a lot of people really enjoyed their work and many people really missed them when they were gone. We should learn from our mistakes as a community and also the casters themselves should analyze their own performance and consider if they can improve. I thank everyone that is casting and hope we continue to have good choices in the future. I normally like tastetosis. I was watching the korean stream but then my wife started watching so I wanted her to know what was going on and learn something. Tuned into the english cast today and they were ignoring the game for so long. I stopped watching after that game though not because of them but just because i went to do something else. Hope it got better. I do think people should have the right to critique people if it helps them grow. And if it doesn't then you're right just watch someone else xD | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
Great game btw. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 26 2017 23:14 TT1 wrote: It's funny how Soulkey is like the exact opposite of EffOrt. His mechanics won't wow you but he's insanely smart. Absolutely agree and IMO he's one of the most dangerous players out there. Reminds me of SAviOr in his prime. As a die-hard FlaSh fan, I find him to be the scariest opponent. He also has pretty good offline composure. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
I also was sad to see Last, Best, and Effort eliminated. Now I'm a fan of Best. His PvT is amazing. I didn't follow the scene enough to know who he was before this tournament. I think Flash will have an easy time if it is a TvZ against Killer Hero or Larva. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
G2 - 12 pool < 12 hatch, mutas win G3 - 12 hatch mirror, better ling micro sim city wins G4 - 11 pool gas > 11 hatch, hidden base + mutas win G5 - 9 pool > 12 hatch, lings kill drones Conclusion: everything known about zvz meta seems to still be true | ||
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Skybrod
Russian Federation19 Posts
On September 27 2017 00:01 Alpha-NP- wrote: Does Soulkey have a strong matchup like ZvT or ZvP? I saw in ASL he lost 2-3 against Flash. Even Shine couldn't take a game against Flash. I think the players that have a chance against Flash are Rain Stork Bisu Soulkey, and Jaedong. I also was sad to see Last, Best, and Effort eliminated. Now I'm a fan of Best. His PvT is amazing. I didn't follow the scene enough to know who he was before this tournament. I think Flash will have an easy time if it is a TvZ against Killer Hero or Larva. Soulkey is 57% in ZvT and 62,2% in ZvP since the beginning of this year in sponmatches. See here | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 27 2017 00:01 Alpha-NP- wrote: Does Soulkey have a strong matchup like ZvT or ZvP? I saw in ASL he lost 2-3 against Flash. Even Shine couldn't take a game against Flash. I think the players that have a chance against Flash are Rain Stork Bisu Soulkey, and Jaedong. I also was sad to see Last, Best, and Effort eliminated. Now I'm a fan of Best. His PvT is amazing. I didn't follow the scene enough to know who he was before this tournament. I think Flash will have an easy time if it is a TvZ against Killer Hero or Larva. SK successfully 4pooled Flash on Camelot in a semifinal match. Not a twitch on his face. He's scary as hell. | ||
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:39 VioleTAK wrote: The greatest threats for Flash are Larva and Rain :-) Agree with that. But Flash will play versus hero on Ro8, right? And Larva vs Killer? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
I liked how Hero outbuild the bag of builds and after shine and effort out i feel alot more safe for the protoss contingent, i think shine and effort are way dangerous non zvz players than larva and hero. Have to say esportsjohn and flashftw did top professional cast here. Its actually the first time i watch them instead of tastosis. I had too much of Tastosis lack of understanding, talking about other things and making guesses. If you hadnt watched the games esportsjohn/flashftw combo is the choice to understand and keep track of all the events happening. | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
On September 26 2017 22:16 [GiTM]-Ace wrote: I normally like tastetosis. I was watching the korean stream but then my wife started watching so I wanted her to know what was going on and learn something. Tuned into the english cast today and they were ignoring the game for so long. Same here. Was my favourite casters, but now... Two main problems: 1. They too out of touch with BW. 2. Thay ignore the game, talking too much about different stuff. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1566 Posts
no effort, so flash won asl4 gg. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On September 27 2017 02:08 _Animus_ wrote: Larva vs Shine was the worst korean zvz ive seen. Next game lack of micro for Hero less shocking than that of Shine. Games like these yet again convince me of how lower the level of play is compared to kespa days. I remember the interest i was watching kespa zvz, all the tactical maneuvers all that clutch micro, thinking about what every player see and whats the opportunities they might use for attack, a game fast and action packed where units can suddenly appear from the shadows and do a deadly act . Now with no young and crisp players, we get to see oldies get slower and slower. I liked how Hero outbuild the bag of builds and after shine and effort out i feel alot more safe for the protoss contingent, i think shine and effort are way dangerous non zvz players than larva and hero. Have to say esportsjohn and flashftw did top professional cast here. Its actually the first time i watch them instead of tastosis. I had too much of Tastosis lack of understanding, talking about other things and making guesses. If you hadnt watched the games esportsjohn/flashftw combo is the choice to understand and keep track of all the events happening. pros have said their game knowledge improved vastly and some have even said they improved overall. Flash thinks his 2017 form can beat 2010 | ||
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On September 27 2017 02:08 _Animus_ wrote: Larva vs Shine was the worst korean zvz ive seen. Next game lack of micro for Hero less shocking than that of Shine. Games like these yet again convince me of how lower the level of play is compared to kespa days. I respectfully disagree. Larva vs Shine was as fine of a match as you would expect coming from a relatively quick 9p mirror bos. Larva's lings maneuver was fine, the micro on both player's part was fine (except for that shine attack with his initial lings even though Larva faked some sort of a gasfirst or 12pool build with 4 lings) and for this kind of a game development the game was fine overall imho. Game 2, absolutely clutch micro performance from hero begining with the millisecond split of the 2 scourges to hit effort's first 2 mutas that almost won him the game and given his bo disadvantage I think he performed fine enough. I haven't watched the other 3 games, but all in all I would refrain from generalizing as broad on the state of the korean pro scene based on these 5 games howerver bad or good they seemingly went. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 27 2017 02:08 _Animus_ wrote: I can honestly say ive never seen a post from you that wasnt aggressive and whiny.Larva vs Shine was the worst korean zvz ive seen. Next game lack of micro for Hero less shocking than that of Shine. Games like these yet again convince me of how lower the level of play is compared to kespa days. I remember the interest i was watching kespa zvz, all the tactical maneuvers all that clutch micro, thinking about what every player see and whats the opportunities they might use for attack, a game fast and action packed where units can suddenly appear from the shadows and do a deadly act . Now with no young and crisp players, we get to see oldies get slower and slower. I liked how Hero outbuild the bag of builds and after shine and effort out i feel alot more safe for the protoss contingent, i think shine and effort are way dangerous non zvz players than larva and hero. Have to say esportsjohn and flashftw did top professional cast here. Its actually the first time i watch them instead of tastosis. I had too much of Tastosis lack of understanding, talking about other things and making guesses. If you hadnt watched the games esportsjohn/flashftw combo is the choice to understand and keep track of all the events happening. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
EffOrt shouldn't have taken that risk seeing it's close positions. No love here for by.hero? If he meets FlaSh he is dead but vs. Bisu will be a really neat ro8 match. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 27 2017 03:37 Shinokuki wrote: pros have said their game knowledge improved vastly and some have even said they improved overall. Flash thinks his 2017 form can beat 2010 last part, really? Flash said that? Interesting. I'm aware of the game knowledge aspect. After all, even when the KeSPA era ended, there was still lots of competition during the Sonic days so pros had time to study the game even more. Having said that, I never thought that Flash would say that he can beat his 2010 self. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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traxamillion
104 Posts
Shine more dangerous than Larva in ZvP and ZvT Animus? Lol what? Shine isn't in the top 20 and Larva is a top 5 maybe top 3 player | ||
Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
On September 27 2017 03:55 [AS]Rattus wrote: esportsjohn not bitching around all the time anymore? watched one stream a few weeks ago where he basically talked about the superiority of sc2 the whole tournament. No. The cast was great, as always is. In the good mood and funny before games, thoughtful during games. I am so amazed by Larva. I believed he killed himself by making the all zerg group. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On September 27 2017 03:55 [AS]Rattus wrote: esportsjohn not bitching around all the time anymore? watched one stream a few weeks ago where he basically talked about the superiority of sc2 the whole tournament. For as long as ive known john he has never said that sc2 was a better game and ive known him for months. | ||
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 27 2017 03:37 Shinokuki wrote: pros have said their game knowledge improved vastly and some have even said they improved overall. Flash thinks his 2017 form can beat 2010 Flash is from planet improvement, hes most dominant player in history. I mean what most players fail is on execution. Micro and macro sucks so often, multitasking and awareness are not at that level they used to be at their younger age, just watch jin air osl or proleague from that time. Their play was pretty clean. Remember shuttle vs sharp ASL finals? It was so sloppy series. There were a reason for progamers after age of 24 start to decline and retire and younger players take their place, team houses produced good players and veterans couldnt cope with their performance, excluding stork and bisu who were super good veterans. On September 27 2017 04:14 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I respectfully disagree. Larva vs Shine was as fine of a match as you would expect coming from a relatively quick 9p mirror bos. Larva's lings maneuver was fine, the micro on both player's part was fine (except for that shine attack with his initial lings even though Larva faked some sort of a gasfirst or 12pool build with 4 lings) and for this kind of a game development the game was fine overall imho. Game 2, absolutely clutch micro performance from hero begining with the millisecond split of the 2 scourges to hit effort's first 2 mutas that almost won him the game and given his bo disadvantage I think he performed fine enough. I haven't watched the other 3 games, but all in all I would refrain from generalizing as broad on the state of the korean pro scene based on these 5 games howerver bad or good they seemingly went. Shine was not microing his drones vs larva lings and lost them super easy from what i saw. And second game apart from that perfect scourge hit, it looked to me that effort outmicroed hero and really made him look bad, his drones and overlords were scattered at random places too. Game 3 and 4 are definitely more interesting IMO. On September 27 2017 05:31 traxamillion wrote: Players are better now than they were during kespa. They've been building on what they did there. Look at Larva as the prime example. Shine more dangerous than Larva in ZvP and ZvT Animus? Lol what? Shine isn't in the top 20 and Larva is a top 5 maybe top 3 player Do you know last ASL season finals was Shine vs Flash? Maybe larva had gone a way up, but does he ever go further than Ro8 in any offline tournament? I consider Soulkey as the best macro zerg and a top tier player if he performs on the level of the last ASL, his play was incredible. He crushed Flash in the teamleague finals and lost 2-3 in close series in ASL. | ||
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scvs
Peru19 Posts
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
His macro is insane. He loses the game to Flash too often due to drops after gaining advantage on streams. If he improves his map awareness, beating Flash is easy. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 27 2017 07:02 RealityIsKing wrote: I think Larva can take out Flash. His macro is insane. He loses the game to Flash too often due to drops after gaining advantage on streams. If he improves his map awareness, beating Flash is easy. I dont follow streams much, but that might be the case. Its the same scenario how flash beat Soulkey in ASL. Maybe larva takes same approach. And its the best IMO because you cant depend to all in flash, timing attacks dont work. Shine was the prime example, he hit the wall every time with his agressive builds even tho they worked so great against everyone else. Soulkey macro style was the closest to beating Flash in a zvt series. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Soulkey and Effort are by far the scariest zergs all around in my opinion; larva however has been great on stream recently. Shine I didn't follow, but doesn't seem to have the chops of the rest of the gang. And yea, JD is always awesome, but his form is not as timeless. The game vs Sharp was a fine example. | ||
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pinkbowtie1
23 Posts
On September 26 2017 23:14 TT1 wrote: It's funny how Soulkey is like the exact opposite of EffOrt. His mechanics won't wow you but he's insanely smart. Idk man his consistent magic triangles in ZvZ always wows me | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 27 2017 06:30 _Animus_ wrote: Do you know last ASL season finals was Shine vs Flash? Maybe larva had gone a way up, but does he ever go further than Ro8 in any offline tournament? I consider Soulkey as the best macro zerg and a top tier player if he performs on the level of the last ASL, his play was incredible. He crushed Flash in the teamleague finals and lost 2-3 in close series in ASL. Larva only really made the jump sometime in the last six months. It wasn't until May that the Larva progress report thread was even made. Larva one year ago was nothing special, it was a dramatic jump starting towards the beginning of this year and continuing till now. This is the first round of ASL we have seen with a Larva that is actually "good". And make no mistake, the Larva of stream is exceptionally good. Much better than EffOrt. Larva is CREAMING everyone not named FlaSh including Last. His last two months he is over 75% WR against Last. Over 60% against Bisu. Same cannot be said for Effort. Or anyone else. FlaSh is FlaSh, and still does well vs Larva (i believe around 60% in spon matches). I won't say Larva is going to win, but in my mind there is no question Larva is by FAR the best chance for a zerg ASL title. On September 27 2017 03:13 iFU.pauline wrote: Effort FUCKING SHIT~!~!! getting ruined by those noobs FUCK!!! no effort, so flash won asl4 gg. Lol. Look, EffOrt is damn good, and one of my favorite zergs...but he isn't on the level of Larva in ZvT or ZvP at all. I really wanted Larva and EffOrt through for zerg chances, but Larva over EffOrt gives us a much greater chance of a zerg victory than anyone else. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 26 2017 23:14 TT1 wrote: It's funny how Soulkey is like the exact opposite of EffOrt. His mechanics won't wow you but he's insanely smart. Hmm. For EffOrt that reads as "his smarts won't wow you, but he has insane mechanical skill". I strongly disagree. EffOrt is a pretty damn good tactical player, his ling movements especially stand out. He has a way of using his way to move lings around to draw other players into bad positions that is absolutely uncanny. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On September 27 2017 10:02 L_Master wrote: Larva only really made the jump sometime in the last six months. It wasn't until May that the Larva progress report thread was even made. Larva one year ago was nothing special, it was a dramatic jump starting towards the beginning of this year and continuing till now. This is what amazes me about Larva. Losing over and over to Flash must have been like some kind of Dragon Ball Z training. | ||
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traxamillion
104 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 27 2017 10:12 traxamillion wrote: Shine beat a sick bisu bit I give him credit last season for some good inventive play. Still 1 tourney is a small sample size. Effort is clearly better when you look at the body of work including spon. I don't think anyone would argue that Shine > EffOrt. EffOrt is clearly the better player. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 27 2017 10:11 Starlightsun wrote: This is what amazes me about Larva. Losing over and over to Flash must have been like some kind of Dragon Ball Z training. If you can stick it out and I can only imagine it's really good for you. Depends on whether you let losing discourage you. | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On September 27 2017 07:18 _Animus_ wrote: I dont follow streams much, but that might be the case. Its the same scenario how flash beat Soulkey in ASL. Maybe larva takes same approach. And its the best IMO because you cant depend to all in flash, timing attacks dont work. Shine was the prime example, he hit the wall every time with his agressive builds even tho they worked so great against everyone else. Soulkey macro style was the closest to beating Flash in a zvt series. I think Flash does this thing where Zergs focus SUPER hard to getting rid of the initial bio and clearing mines on the map then don't have enough units/gas to make scourges at home and then JUST when you think you have enough map advantage on the map and can safely roam around the map with 4 base Ultra ling defiler, BAM! Dropship in your main, you have to move back all of your stuff to defend properly because of how good Flash micros them to deal maximum dmg. And when you make scourges, the dropships are long gone and you just lost map presence and you are stuck in base preparing for the next drop. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 27 2017 10:02 L_Master wrote: Larva only really made the jump sometime in the last six months. It wasn't until May that the Larva progress report thread was even made. Larva one year ago was nothing special, it was a dramatic jump starting towards the beginning of this year and continuing till now. This is the first round of ASL we have seen with a Larva that is actually "good". And make no mistake, the Larva of stream is exceptionally good. Much better than EffOrt. Larva is CREAMING everyone not named FlaSh including Last. His last two months he is over 75% WR against Last. Over 60% against Bisu. Same cannot be said for Effort. Or anyone else. FlaSh is FlaSh, and still does well vs Larva (i believe around 60% in spon matches). I won't say Larva is going to win, but in my mind there is no question Larva is by FAR the best chance for a zerg ASL title. Lol. Look, EffOrt is damn good, and one of my favorite zergs...but he isn't on the level of Larva in ZvT or ZvP at all. I really wanted Larva and EffOrt through for zerg chances, but Larva over EffOrt gives us a much greater chance of a zerg victory than anyone else. Larva is a top level zerg player, but I think you are being very selective towards Larva here, by generalizing his overall performance from his games versus Last. Sponsored match statistiscs from August 2017 ~ September 2017 Larva versus Flash: 11-29 (27.5%) Larva versus Bisu: 13-11 (54.17%) Larva versus Last: 21-6 (77.78%) EffOrt versus Flash: 19-21 (47.5%) EffOrt versus Bisu: 8-5 (61.54%) EffOrt versus Last: 8-17 (32%) The only thing Larva is on another level from EffOrt is his ability to defeat Last. The part about Larva being much better than EffOrt can only be applied to his games versus Last, and the rest is a fabrication. Larva does crush inferior opposition without mercy, but an in-form EffOrt has guile and finesse to his game that Larva does not yet possess, and that is why a lot of people, including myself, thought EffOrt would have the best chance to bring down Flash. In the words of Flash himself: "When EffOrt is on crazy-mode, even I cannot stop him." | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 27 2017 10:52 Letmelose wrote: Larva is a top level zerg player, but I think you are being very selective towards Larva here, by generalizing his overall performance from his games versus Last. Sponsored match statistiscs from August 2017 ~ September 2017 Larva versus Flash: 11-29 (27.5%) Larva versus Bisu: 13-11 (54.17%) Larva versus Last: 21-6 (77.78%) EffOrt versus Flash: 19-21 (47.5%) EffOrt versus Bisu: 8-5 (61.54%) EffOrt versus Last: 8-17 (32%) The only thing Larva is on another level from EffOrt is his ability to defeat Last. The part about Larva being much better than EffOrt can only be applied to his games versus Last, and the rest is a fabrication. Haven't had a chance to say it, but I absolutely love the consistent pieces you've put out over the past months breaking down historical BW stats in all kinds of interesting ways. Some of the most enjoyable reading on TL in quite some time. Your numbers are different than mine, and I certainly won't dispute them. You put 100x the thought and search into it than I do, though it's clear I had in my head a different number set than you. Statistically, I doubt you can draw any conclusions from that sample size. Without calculating it, I'd be willing to bet it's not possible to say, with statistical significance, from last two month spon matches that EffOrt does better against Bisu or FlaSh than Larva. In fact, there is a good chance you can't even say Larva does better against Last than EffOrt does (though given the more dramatic swings and WR difference for both players their is a chance that conclusion could be drawn). The main point here is it's not really possible to make a statistical claim of Larva>EffOrt or EffOrt>Larva. Historical performance, or even ASL performance it's no question that EffOrt >> Larva. However, Larva has improved rapidly and dramatically since the beginning of this year, which renders the historical value of less relevance. It takes time to accrue results if you just recently went from mediocre to exceptional. All of which means the only measure of who is a better player comes from that subjective sense of "feel" based on gameplay. I watch almost exclusively EffOrt and Larva FPVoDs on Korhal these days, and my perceptive sense is that Larva is stronger than EffOrt, and by noticeable amount, especially when he is "on" and not tilting or playing super tired. I'm not convinced this doesn't impact the quality of some of his spon matches as well. Mechanically, they are both excellent players, and I don't think you could easily put ones mechanics above the others. Larva's good games are...well, good. Damn good. EffOrt's win's it feels like he gets heavily from early damage or wins with clever moves (something EffOrt is VERY good at). Larva though gives me the sense of playing ZvT on a new level; he plays it differently than other zergs and is the only one I can think of that has consistent success in the management games...where when he reaches that point he wins more often than he loses. As others have pointed out, many of his FlaSh losses come from dropship issues, and with better awareness that can be shut down. Fixing that could further catapult Larva's ZvT prowess. It's all of that taken together than make Larva seem like a much better candidate to take down Flash than EffOrt is. He's got some weak points, but I think his overall ability to play ZvT is better than EffOrts, and indeed any other zerg. Drop Larva off in an equal position with terran 15' into the game and I think Larva is favored against any terran, FlaSh included. I couldn't say the same for EffOrt. That's, for me, what makes Larva such an exciting player with such promise. EffOrt is where he is at. A strong contender with fantastic tactics and mechanics to back it up. He is capable of taking down players like FlaSh in series play, but it's a 1 in 10, or 1 in 20 type of scenario; but he is a "what you see, what you get" type of player. He isn't doing anything or developing anything (or indeed even playing enough) that you expect any likely breakthroughs. Larva is a guy playing a metric shitton of BW, improving daily, and developing a long term, successful way of playing ZvT, one that threatens the upper hand at the long term management game that FlaSh has so long held in lockdown. There's a ton of hype surrounding Larva, but it's justified. In Larva there is a potential for long term ZvT success. I don't see that from any other zerg playing. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 27 2017 11:09 RealityIsKing wrote: ^Poor Jaedong, not even mentioned with Flash and Bisu. I'd be kinda curious to see the stats, but from what I understand his performance right now really isn't that impressive. I'm sure it's still good, but from the way people talk it doesn't sound like he is seeing the success that guys like Larva or EffOrt are seeing. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 27 2017 11:21 L_Master wrote: Haven't had a chance to say it, but I absolutely love the consistent pieces you've put out over the past months breaking down historical BW stats in all kinds of interesting ways. Some of the most enjoyable reading on TL in quite some time. Your numbers are different than mine, and I certainly won't dispute them. You put 100x the thought and search into it than I do, though it's clear I had in my head a different number set than you. Statistically, I doubt you can draw any conclusions from that sample size. Without calculating it, I'd be willing to bet it's not possible to say, with statistical significance, from last two month spon matches that EffOrt does better against Bisu or FlaSh than Larva. In fact, there is a good chance you can't even say Larva does better against Last than EffOrt does (though given the more dramatic swings and WR difference for both players their is a chance that conclusion could be drawn). The main point here is it's not really possible to make a statistical claim of Larva>EffOrt or EffOrt>Larva. Historical performance, or even ASL performance it's no question that EffOrt >> Larva. However, Larva has improved rapidly and dramatically since the beginning of this year, which renders the historical value of less relevance. It takes time to accrue results if you just recently went from mediocre to exceptional. All of which means the only measure of who is a better player comes from that subjective sense of "feel" based on gameplay. I watch almost exclusively EffOrt and Larva FPVoDs on Korhal these days, and my perceptive sense is that Larva is stronger than EffOrt, and by noticeable amount, especially when he is "on" and not tilting or playing super tired. I'm not convinced this doesn't impact the quality of some of his spon matches as well. Mechanically, they are both excellent players, and I don't think you could easily put ones mechanics above the others. Larva's good games are...well, good. Damn good. EffOrt's win's it feels like he gets heavily from early damage or wins with clever moves (something EffOrt is VERY good at). Larva though gives me the sense of playing ZvT on a new level; he plays it differently than other zergs and is the only one I can think of that has consistent success in the management games...where when he reaches that point he wins more often than he loses. As others have pointed out, many of his FlaSh losses come from dropship issues, and with better awareness that can be shut down. Fixing that could further catapult Larva's ZvT prowess. It's all of that taken together than make Larva seem like a much better candidate to take down Flash than EffOrt is. He's got some weak points, but I think his overall ability to play ZvT is better than EffOrts, and indeed any other zerg. Drop Larva off in an equal position with terran 15' into the game and I think Larva is favored against any terran, FlaSh included. I couldn't say the same for EffOrt. That's, for me, what makes Larva such an exciting player with such promise. EffOrt is where he is at. A strong contender with fantastic tactics and mechanics to back it up. He is capable of taking down players like FlaSh in series play, but it's a 1 in 10, or 1 in 20 type of scenario; but he is a "what you see, what you get" type of player. He isn't doing anything or developing anything (or indeed even playing enough) that you expect any likely breakthroughs. Larva is a guy playing a metric shitton of BW, improving daily, and developing a long term, successful way of playing ZvT, one that threatens the upper hand at the long term management game that FlaSh has so long held in lockdown. There's a ton of hype surrounding Larva, but it's justified. In Larva there is a potential for long term ZvT success. I don't see that from any other zerg playing. This is my personal take on it, Larva is the best at standard games. EffOrt thrives under chaos, when his wits and delicate mastery over his units can be maximized. The problem is, Larva's standard game is better suited for crushing inferior opposition, and I personally prefered EffOrt's chances against Flash in particular. The most promising thing about Larva is his youth, and his level of determination to improve. However, as of today, I still prefer EffOrt over Larva. I would agree with the vast majority of the points you've made, but not when it comes to who is the harder opposition for Flash as of now. It doesn't matter how strong Larva's fundamentals are if it isn't strong enough to take down Flash on a consistent basis. As unreliable as EffOrt's approach to defeating Flash tends to be, it proved to be more reliable than Larva's approach thus far. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 27 2017 03:55 [AS]Rattus wrote: esportsjohn not bitching around all the time anymore? watched one stream a few weeks ago where he basically talked about the superiority of sc2 the whole tournament. Wait what? If anything, I was probably bitching about the superiority of BW. I haven't played sc2 in years lol. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
Flash has always been a guy who thinks 10 games ahead (I think iloveoov had a great quote about this when asked about what player he would have most wanted to train). And, Flash has played Larva so much. You're crazy if you don't think Flash has several builds (not cheese necessarily, but subtle tweaks) that he's saving for when he really needs to make sure he beats Larva. He's simply not gonna let games against Larva get into the sponmatch late game scenarios, just like how when Flash 3-0'd Last he also didn't let the games come down to late game slugfests / battle of pure mechanics. The fact that Flash is pretty good at coming up with ways to have a strategic win, on top of his skill level and game sense, is just unfair. Tuning your game + playing mind games for the most important BoX series is its own skill. While it's hard to quantify, it seems likely that Flash will have a huge edge over Larva at that skill due to the massive gap in tournament experience. This is a reason I think people don't want to play Jaedong in tournaments, even though Jaedong's overall form is actually not that great. Obviously Jaedong's amazing ASL2 showing, where took 2 games off of Flash via incredible preparation in game 1 and pretty much sheer force of will in game 4, is an example of how the greatest players have an extra gear, even if it's not as reliable as it used to be. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On September 27 2017 15:38 darktreb wrote: I'm happy for Larva but don't see him as a threat against Flash. Exactly. Anyone who thinks that Larva can take out Flash in a BO5 is out of their fucking mind. | ||
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Skybrod
Russian Federation19 Posts
On September 27 2017 10:52 Letmelose wrote: Larva is a top level zerg player, but I think you are being very selective towards Larva here, by generalizing his overall performance from his games versus Last. Sponsored match statistiscs from August 2017 ~ September 2017 Larva versus Flash: 11-29 (27.5%) Larva versus Bisu: 13-11 (54.17%) Larva versus Last: 21-6 (77.78%) EffOrt versus Flash: 19-21 (47.5%) EffOrt versus Bisu: 8-5 (61.54%) EffOrt versus Last: 8-17 (32%) The only thing Larva is on another level from EffOrt is his ability to defeat Last. The part about Larva being much better than EffOrt can only be applied to his games versus Last, and the rest is a fabrication. Larva does crush inferior opposition without mercy, but an in-form EffOrt has guile and finesse to his game that Larva does not yet possess, and that is why a lot of people, including myself, thought EffOrt would have the best chance to bring down Flash. In the words of Flash himself: "When EffOrt is on crazy-mode, even I cannot stop him." Letmelose, your post, as well as many others in this thread, brings up a very interesting question that has been occupying my mind for some time — how do we measure a player's skill. I keep thinking about baseball metrics, but they are not fully applicable here, because the "true" skill in baseball is more difficult to single out. In BW, as it seems, given a sufficiently large sample of games, it's easier to say that a player has made progress or has regressed. One, for example, doesn't win 50 games out of 100 vs. Flash just because he's lucky or even 25 out of 50, unless, of course, Flash suddenly starts playing much worse. If one was to invent such a metric for BW, it would probably have to include the strength of the opponents and a certain amount of recent results (maybe 1-2 years?). Then again, maybe ELO is quite enough, since it does include the former. I wish some statistically-minded persons shared their thoughts on the matter. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On September 27 2017 05:31 traxamillion wrote: Players are better now than they were during kespa. They've been building on what they did there. Look at Larva as the prime example. Shine more dangerous than Larva in ZvP and ZvT Animus? Lol what? Shine isn't in the top 20 and Larva is a top 5 maybe top 3 player I think players are different now than during kespa. There is less strict adherence to meta and builds because every map isn't dissected and played a million man hours in the team houses. And the deep understanding of the game of having played it for such a long time is gonna be better. But, I feel like some of the micro and mechanics isn't quite up to par. But also my understanding of the game is so much better now so it is hard to say if I missed more of the sloppy plays back then than I do now. On September 27 2017 07:30 TaardadAiel wrote: Shine beat an uncharacteristically sloppy Bisu last season. I think that is a bit unfair to Shine, Shines surprising builds made Bisu sloppy. It is so much harder to play as sharp when you don't really know what to do. It is much easier to execute when you do things you have done a million times and that you planned to do. When you have to adopt and change your strategy and defend in ways you didn't expect to it is gonna make your play more sloppy. There were other factors as well, but I feel like Shine deserves more credit than your statement gives him. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 27 2017 19:01 Barneyk wrote: I think players are different now than during kespa. There is less strict adherence to meta and builds because every map isn't dissected and played a million man hours in the team houses. And the deep understanding of the game of having played it for such a long time is gonna be better. But, I feel like some of the micro and mechanics isn't quite up to par. But also my understanding of the game is so much better now so it is hard to say if I missed more of the sloppy plays back then than I do now. I think that is a bit unfair to Shine, Shines surprising builds made Bisu sloppy. It is so much harder to play as sharp when you don't really know what to do. It is much easier to execute when you do things you have done a million times and that you planned to do. When you have to adopt and change your strategy and defend in ways you didn't expect to it is gonna make your play more sloppy. There were other factors as well, but I feel like Shine deserves more credit than your statement gives him. Don't get me wrong, Shine played smartly and had proper executions for his weird builds, but Bisu was sloppy nonetheless. If I recall correctly, he was coming down with something, too. Anyway, he was losing sairs to scourge all over the place and that's most of what I meant, really. I'm not used to Bisu doing stuff like that. Then again, he's being so consistently inconsistent. The whole impression was for (compared to usual/expected level) sloppy play. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 27 2017 15:38 darktreb wrote: Tuning your game + playing mind games for the most important BoX series is its own skill. While it's hard to quantify, it seems likely that Flash will have a huge edge over Larva at that skill due to the massive gap in tournament experience. This is a reason I think people don't want to play Jaedong in tournaments, even though Jaedong's overall form is actually not that great. Obviously Jaedong's amazing ASL2 showing, where took 2 games off of Flash via incredible preparation in game 1 and pretty much sheer force of will in game 4, is an example of how the greatest players have an extra gear, even if it's not as reliable as it used to be. Same thoughts here. When people talk about who is left able take down flash, it's crazy imo not to include players like bisu and jd, regardless of current skill level. The experience and mental toughness counts for so much. They may have a higher risk of getting eliminated by other players, but as long as these all time greats are in the tournament, they are very very legit threats to Flash. As a flash fan, I can tell you I would be a lot more nervous if he were up against bisu/jd than someone like larva. | ||
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PLoveZerg
2 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
anyway... kinda sad to see shine gone already. sure, he's not the best but you don't place second in ASL by pure luck either. | ||
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PLoveZerg
2 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 27 2017 23:37 Dazed. wrote: Im surprised everyone is saying effort plays smart, and is good at crisis management, because he seems the total opposite from all the games ive seen. When he loses, he loses like an idiot, not reacting properly to what he sees or repeating the same opener game after game in a series. He seems like a less intelligent savior -- capable of strong macro, mechanical play, but too robotic, and too reliant on falling back on safety builds. I've seen him win tons of scrappy games with nothing other than mechanics and speed, after falling way behind because he scouted something and yet hardly reacted to it and took massive damage. EffOrt tries his hardest to outsmart and outplay the enemy to the maximum. Of course he's going to caught with his pants down more often than not, considering how fickle his general play-style tends to be. It's easy to slight a player by categorizing their flaws. Try forcing yourself to watch thirty games of sAviOr from 2008 or early 2009 (before he got involved in match-fixing) in any order you see fit. Most would probably would want to bleach their own eyeballs after the experience. The last time sAviOr looked anything remotely close to intelligent against top tier competition was when his build orders and his understanding of the gaming paradigm were years ahead of his time. Once he had to outsmart, and out-skill someone on an even footing, he was nothing special. Of course, there's tremendous genius to what sAviOr did during his prime, there's not many who can match the dude in terms of talent. However, what EffOrt does is far harder to replicate by other players, and even EffOrt himself cannot sustain it all the time. There's nothing revolutionary about EffOrt's play, and nor is his approach an all-encompassing algorithm for lesser players to imitate, and immediately reap the rewards from. There's subtle nuances and constant mind-games, coupled with confidence in his own ability to outplay the enemy. It's an extremely captivating play-style, and it's pretty odd to liken him as a less intelligent sAviOr, as if EffOrt was a student of his. sAviOr himself will tell you EffOrt was unlike the other zergs on CJ Entus, and EffOrt tried to do develop his own style, instead of copying sAviOr. It's one thing to see not much worth in EffOrt's philosophy for the game, but to liken it to a lesser version of what made sAviOr stand out, seems like a sub-optimal comparison in my opinion. If you're not going to be convinced by random nobodies, perhaps some quotes by fellow ex-professionals might persuade you. There are more, but I can't be bothered to search for quotes that I can't remember in precise detail, or find the exact wordings for. Flash: "EffOrt is by far the best at playing from behind, he knows how to take risks. When he is at his best not even I can stop him." Shine: "Tailored for messy games. In terms of smartness, no zerg player comes close." Sea: "There is something special about EffOrt, I felt that ever since his professional days." Bisu: "There is a narrative to each and every one of EffOrt's games." | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 28 2017 00:49 Dazed. wrote: Actually saviour only fell off after summer of 2008, his zvp peak was after bisu not before it, and he reached ro8 or semis in msl osl losing to mind and fbh 2-3, he all killed in 2010 more than a few times and by all accounts he wasn't practicing after 09. Strangely enough quote mining people trying to be nice doesn't convince me efforts strengths are anywhere outside of the mechanical. The amazing zerg-versus-protoss peak of sAviOr, during which he becomes the only championship winning player in history to lose a best-of-series to a non-Korean player at WCG 2007. His mighty opponent, PJ, who had a 0-10 record versus zerg players in professional games, humiliates sAviOr by defeating him with carriers. Why are you mentioning sAviOr's results in 2007, the same year he hit his career peak by reaching the finals of both the individual leagues? Are you trying to say sAviOr several months after his absolute peak as a professional gamer wasn't total garbage? Wow! The audacity of me to question the greatness of sAviOr! If you're going to make shit up, be more original with it. What's so mind-blowing about non-existent All-Kills? At least fabricate some achievements more grandiose than something even nOtice managed to achieve. sAviOr never had an All-Kill in a ProLeague setting, not even once. Unless reality is somehow different for sAviOr, and three kills count as an All-Kill. Finally, if these players were merely trying to be nice, wouldn't they try to praise the amazing mechanical ability of EffOrt? Think about it. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On September 28 2017 00:30 Letmelose wrote: Of course he's going to caught with his pants down more often than not, considering how fickle his general play-style tends to be. Totally agreed with this. Effort lives on edge, he knows he's good in scrappy situations, and he plays to create these. In a way, this is the kinda the opposite of a safer macro playstyle, like Zero and Soulkey seem to be more comfortable with. I guess this is why people tend to downplay his desicion making/adaptive play, since it's easier to look stupid when his stuff doesn't work (and easy to attribute scrappy wins to his APM). This said, I think Larva looked promising in their game, he had the whole situation planned out just like it worked. I hope he can show similar games and preparation from Ro8 onwards. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 28 2017 01:14 Letmelose wrote: Savior wasnt at his peak in mid to late 2007, he peaked in 06. Im saying that savior wasnt just at his peak, caught up to, and then looked like shit afterwards because thats the nature of a macro zerg whos not killing each timing. It isnt. Savior declined gradually, in some matchups faster than others, and then collapsed utterly when he literally ceased practicing. Imaginary all kills? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=135&part=games&vs=all&league=162&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=24&to_year=2009&to_month=2&to_day=7&action=Update Well your right, he merely got two three kills back to back. Meaningless distinction. The amazing zerg-versus-protoss peak of sAviOr, during which he becomes the only championship winning player in history to lose a best-of-series to a non-Korean player at WCG 2007. His mighty opponent, PJ, who had a 0-10 record versus zerg players in professional games, humiliates sAviOr by defeating him with carriers. Why are you mentioning sAviOr's results in 2007, the same year he hit his career peak by reaching the finals of both the individual leagues? Are you trying to say sAviOr several months after his absolute peak as a professional gamer wasn't total garbage? Wow! The audacity of me to question the greatness of sAviOr! If you're going to make shit up, be more original with it. What's so mind-blowing about non-existent All-Kills? At least fabricate some achievements more grandiose than something even nOtice managed to achieve. sAviOr never had an All-Kill in a ProLeague setting, not even once. Unless reality is somehow different for sAviOr, and three kills count as an All-Kill. Finally, if these players were merely trying to be nice, wouldn't they try to praise the amazing mechanical ability of EffOrt? Think about it. Point I was making is this; zerg as a race generally loses pretty badly when they lose, if your an aggro player you look terrible when it fails, when your a macro player you look terrible when you misjudge the timing and you die -- thats true of everyone, its not unique to effort or saviors management style. But when has effort played a strategically brilliant game? Where are these games im missing? He plays standard management every game, repetitiously so, and when he loses, its almost always due to an early game disadvantage he suffered by mis judging timings. Thats exactly the opposite of a strategically minded player. What exactly is holding effort back, in your eyes, by the way? Clearly its not his mechanics, yet he fails anyway...which leaves decision making. As to the quotes-- only one of those quotes arent vague and general, and I dont know the authenticity of them at all [you come off like an asshole, not a trustworthy person]. Bisus statement amounts to nothing, as every game has a narrative. Every top progamer can take games or series off flash, and many have done so, those who cant have no right being there at all. So one guy called him smart -- maybe -- ergo now hes a strategically gifted player, despite, to my knowledge, literally never showing that as his primary strength. What a convincing argument you give... | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 28 2017 02:05 Dazed. wrote: Savior wasnt at his peak in mid to late 2007, he peaked in 06. Im saying that savior wasnt just at his peak, caught up to, and then looked like shit afterwards because thats the nature of a macro zerg whos not killing each timing. It isnt. Savior declined gradually, in some matchups faster than others, and then collapsed utterly when he literally ceased practicing. Imaginary all kills? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=135&part=games&vs=all&league=162&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=24&to_year=2009&to_month=2&to_day=7&action=Update Well your right, he merely got two three kills back to back. Meaningless distinction. Point I was making is this; zerg as a race generally loses pretty badly when they lose, if your an aggro player you look terrible when it fails, when your a macro player you look terrible when you misjudge the timing and you die -- thats true of everyone, its not unique to effort or saviors management style. But when has effort played a strategically brilliant game? Where are these games im missing? He plays standard management every game, repetitiously so, and when he loses, its almost always due to an early game disadvantage he suffered by mis judging timings. Thats exactly the opposite of a strategically minded player. What exactly is holding effort back, in your eyes, by the way? Clearly its not his mechanics, yet he fails anyway...which leaves decision making. As to the quotes-- only one of those quotes arent vague and general, and I dont know the authenticity of them at all [you come off like an asshole, not a trustworthy person]. Bisus statement amounts to nothing, as every game has a narrative. Every top progamer can take games or series off flash, and many have done so, those who cant have no right being there at all. So one guy called him smart -- maybe -- ergo now hes a strategically gifted player, despite, to my knowledge, literally never showing that as his primary strength. What a convincing argument you give... Get someone who is fluent in Korean, and get them to read or watch the contents of these sites. Use google translate if you must, anything but your horrid misinformation and judgement. + Show Spoiler + http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=stoccatore&logNo=220832790655&categoryNo=27&parentCategoryNo=0&viewDate=¤tPage=1&postListTopCurrentPage=1&from=postView https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=stoccatore&logNo=220848260081&proxyReferer=http://www.google.co.kr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiW--KH8cXWAhUC2LwKHVz7CykQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.naver.com%2Fstoccatore%2F220848260081&usg=AFQjCNGkz82-m0itjNLIez_SD0h34bkC7A https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=stoccatore&logNo=220757370189&proxyReferer=http://www.google.co.kr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjAo8Hw8cXWAhVLVbwKHfuFBvEQFggvMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.naver.com%2Fstoccatore%2F220757370189&usg=AFQjCNGb9EwQJg6gn1uDxRv3Nu4Y_ok9CA http://www2.ygosu.com/community/?bid=st&idx=1038002&frombest=Y If I come off as an asshole, you're right, I have very little patience for people such as yourself. You make false arguments to support your case, you make your judgement solely off your sub-par understanding of the game, and try to make assumptions about well known quotes about EffOrt in Korean communities, based off my character traits rather than searching for the information yourself, which you are clearly incapable of doing, as you have shown with your "facts" about sAviOr. | ||
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 27 2017 15:38 darktreb wrote: I'm happy for Larva but don't see him as a threat against Flash. What makes Flash even more OP in tournaments is he understands and is willing to tweak his play when the stakes are higher. Whereas on ladder / sponmatches he'll generally be content to sit back and duke things out. Flash has always been a guy who thinks 10 games ahead (I think iloveoov had a great quote about this when asked about what player he would have most wanted to train). And, Flash has played Larva so much. You're crazy if you don't think Flash has several builds (not cheese necessarily, but subtle tweaks) that he's saving for when he really needs to make sure he beats Larva. He's simply not gonna let games against Larva get into the sponmatch late game scenarios, just like how when Flash 3-0'd Last he also didn't let the games come down to late game slugfests / battle of pure mechanics. The fact that Flash is pretty good at coming up with ways to have a strategic win, on top of his skill level and game sense, is just unfair. Tuning your game + playing mind games for the most important BoX series is its own skill. While it's hard to quantify, it seems likely that Flash will have a huge edge over Larva at that skill due to the massive gap in tournament experience. This is a reason I think people don't want to play Jaedong in tournaments, even though Jaedong's overall form is actually not that great. Obviously Jaedong's amazing ASL2 showing, where took 2 games off of Flash via incredible preparation in game 1 and pretty much sheer force of will in game 4, is an example of how the greatest players have an extra gear, even if it's not as reliable as it used to be. Yes, spot on --- I dunno if Larva will ever become a true rival to Flash, but if he does, it won't be in their first Bo5. Flash has too much experience in tournament play, and I expect a 3-0 if they meet in ASL4. Also agreed on the fact that Jaedong is perhaps not the best Zerg at this moment by the numbers,* but still nobody wants to face him in ASL4 because they're afraid he'll unlock the crazy mode. Both Flash and Jaedong made it to all those finals, not because they're always invincible, but because they can almost always step up their game when it counts. *the numbers are lying obviously | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On September 27 2017 06:30 _Animus_ wrote: Shine was not microing his drones vs larva lings and lost them super easy from what i saw. And second game apart from that perfect scourge hit, it looked to me that effort outmicroed hero and really made him look bad, his drones and overlords were scattered at random places too. Game 3 and 4 are definitely more interesting IMO. Shine did not lose his drones vs Larva super easy given their army compositions in the battles. There's only so much you can do with 2 lings against 6. Larva made a really nice play to get himself into that position. The game was perfectly fine for a zvz. Hero was microing fine and I think his micro was not why he lost the game. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 26 2017 23:17 Ty2 wrote: I'd agree with the lack of quality in commentary for Group B. I usually listen to the Tastosis commentaries for recordings but I was up to watch the games live this time. I'm not sure if it's just because of how I pay less attention to past broadcasts, but the amount of banter felt higher and took up a considerable amount of the casting, especially in the Shine vs. Hero game. There were a few moments where the banter stuck out a lot and just felt out of place. I don't think they know ZvZ very well. Nick made such insightful comments as "they have the best builds... always look when they put drones on gas" without any analysis of why they're doing what they're doing. | ||
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
On September 28 2017 05:56 Alpha-NP- wrote: Bisu Stork and Rain I think would give Flash the biggest challenge. Re: Stork, look at the skill difference... even his early game harass don't do shit to that defense T_T and of course, later on, we know whose macro is better... | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 28 2017 12:53 Golgotha wrote: damn. effort vs flash would have been a real treat. glad larva made it through though, that guy is good for viewers. As long as Bisu or JD get a BoX against Flash, I will be so happy. I think jd and bisu vs flash will be also good for the viewers, but honestly i dont see them take more than one game vs him. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On September 28 2017 11:40 orvinreyes wrote: Re: Stork, look at the skill difference... even his early game harass don't do shit to that defense T_T and of course, later on, we know whose macro is better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7bYxkAJAzI Stork is an all time great and arguably underrated for his raw talent (it's weird that his low APM makes people see him as less talented, when you could just as easily argue he's more talented for being able to make so much of it). That said, consistency has been more of his virtue than raising his level of play for big games. It's not just all the second place finishes - he's just not a guy that inspires the same level of fear that Bisu or Jaedong do at times. As one example, I'd argue that for much of Stork's career, any top 10 or maybe even top 15 Zerg would rightfully feel like they had a shot to win against him. Of course this is PvT which is different. Stork's understanding of PvT is sublime and he will always be able to win PvTs against second tier Terrans. He could win even if he hadn't practiced for weeks. But Stork vs Flash is different. At some point in 2010 it seems like Stork just conceded Flash's superiority and he just hasn't been the same threat. This is just my opinion I don't think Stork goes into games with Flash thinking he has much chance to win. In fact, I actually think Stork feels more optimistic against Jaedong, because Stork has had a surprising amount of success against Jaedong considering that Stork's PvZ was by far his worst matchup and Jaedong was a great ZvP player overall. Even over the past year, aside from the ASL trouncing, Stork's won a handful of important games (such as Blizzard's Remastered event where the game was basically worth $5000). | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
D1 - B2 C1 - A2 B1 - C2 A1 - D2 Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd - hero Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak - Killer Larva - Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak Flash - Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd Which means Bisu and Larva can earliest possibly meet Flash in Ro4. I guess the whole group C would be happy against Killer, Larva not so much. Same for group D, but I'd have to say I think Soulkey might not mind having to go up against Flash. Rain, I don't know. Stork and Jd, I think, would hate to meet him and will try their hardest to go against hero. | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
On September 28 2017 11:40 orvinreyes wrote: Re: Stork, look at the skill difference... even his early game harass don't do shit to that defense T_T and of course, later on, we know whose macro is better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7bYxkAJAzI Hah! , actually Stork accomplished what he wanted with his BO. It was a 1gate zea rush, it was not supposed to end the game there. Even tho he didn't micro his first zea as well and didn't ran with his 2nd zea up the ramp when there was 1 or 2 rines on the bunker but then waited for a second zea to run both past the bunker (now full with marines) he still killed some scvs, made 2-4 scvs follow his initial zea around the main for a good amount of time. Denied vult harass and more importantly, expoed before Flash. Flash went for a barrack/cc opening and that usually gets you an expo much faster than the toss, and Stork prevented that. Also, Flash usually goes for his 3rd cc earlier/at the same time (depending on the toss' style) than his opponent. Stork also took a 3rd gas much earlier than Flash Flash knew he was behind and decided to make his cc on the spot, instead of on his main and Stork managed to force a cancel, kill some tanks and delay it even more. Flash knowing he was behind, went for a dropship harass and that achieved nothing*. Stork even had a 'noob' cannon preventing that siege drop bellow the 9h base. Tried to go to Stork's main and couldn't even lay mines. *But then Stork got lazy/arrogant and decided to take his empty main with a naked probe. Not even at C level on iccup you'll be able to take an empty main on FS without goon support. So that dropship with 1 tank and 2 mine-less vults managed to do incredible things to Stork, killed many probes, then destroyed the nexus and more importantly, prevented Stork from getting his gateways up. Stork suicide a shitload of zeas on mines to stop that dropship and Flash just picked the units up and waited for another opportunity. Stork then got desperate and tried to take 'Flash's empty main' with cannons and 1 gate, which could've worked if he was going carriers, but he wasn't. Still, stork managed to win many battles, even without stasis(f### EMP). Amidst one of those battles flash destroyed Storks last hope (11o'clock). But his storms were on point and surprisingly on the second to last battle Stork managed to decisively win that battle, but at that point it was a 3expo fully upgraded T vs 3expo P he couldn't keep up. I found it very impressive! Even tho Stork was losing units to mines quite often, but he was doing what only Jangbi (his protégé) could do to Flash: win battles mid/late game pvt without the help of lots of stasis. If he sent 4 goons to take the empty main he' would've won quite easily. But that's the genius of Flash. That dropship tried to harass 3 bases before getting to 5 o'clock. He Managed to keep it safe and that, IMHO, won him the game. PS. That game was posted on "bw dual vods" youtube channel. That's the beauty of that channel, you can see the game developing from each FPV. I found that very | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
Also, I hope he doesn't pull an Eff0rt and tries some cheese or a timing attack oe gets too greedy before facing Flash. He should play safe against other players because the maps favor him and he's better than the field. (not counting zvz) | ||
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oEkY
Germany649 Posts
On September 28 2017 17:25 PVJ wrote: So if I go by last season's draws we will have D1 - B2 C1 - A2 B1 - C2 A1 - D2 Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd - hero Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak - Killer Larva - Bisu / Mind / Shuttle / Ssak Flash - Soulkey / Rain / Stork / Jd Which means Bisu and Larva can earliest possibly meet Flash in Ro4. I guess the whole group C would be happy against Killer, Larva not so much. Same for group D, but I'd have to say I think Soulkey might not mind having to go up against Flash. Rain, I don't know. Stork and Jd, I think, would hate to meet him and will try their hardest to go against hero. There have always been offical bracket draws by the korean head moderator and the booth girl (dunno their names) after the last group of the round of 16 (at least in ASL S2 and ASL S3). The only things that are sure is that a player who advanced as #1 will meet a #2 player and that you cant get the same opponent as in the round of 16 again (no A#1 vs A#2 for example) | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
On September 28 2017 23:13 oEkY wrote: There have always been offical bracket draws by the korean head moderator and the booth girl (dunno their names) after the last group of the round of 16 (at least in ASL S2 and ASL S3). The only things that are sure is that a player who advanced as #1 will meet a #2 player and that you cant get the same opponent as in the round of 16 again (no A#1 vs A#2 for example) I didn't remember that part but now that you mention it I felt weird after initially writing up something like A1 - C2 | A2 - C1 and so on and then finding on the Liquipedia page how assymetric ASL3's Ro8 was. Thanks! The funny thing is that this still doesn't change much, everyone will want to avoid Flash and most Larva too. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 26 2017 21:36 TaardadAiel wrote: Word, man. I usually enjoy Tastosis (actually, ASL S2 and their casting is what brought me back to watching Broodwar - I had stopped for like 8 years), but I see where people have grounds for complaint. They sometimes don't really pay attention to the games and miss important stuff, like scouts spotting backstabbing squads and such. But that is no reason to be abusively criticizing, so I guess criticism should be just informative - "these guys do this and that, so if that's your style, give them a go, otherwise watch FlaShFTW or korean casting like I do". There is an off chance that Tastosis might even need the feedback, though they've been around for so long I don't really think they would change their style now. On this note, the dissociation between obsing and casting is sometimes freaking me out. There's dozens of times I was shouting "COME ON TASTELESS SHOW ME WHAT YOU MEAN DON'T JUST SHOW ME PLAYER A's MINERAL LINE" and then I realize the obs is someone else and has something different in mind. :D I think Tastosis needs a 3rd IMO. They need an Zerg player, encyclopedia person, adding some details and some facts. Tasteless is a great showrunner with Artosis being the brains for him to bounce off of, but they need the third guy/girl to interject with stats and very fine details about BOs and like as you say scouting patterns (mentioning things from the minimap that weren't on the screen). Artosis is supposed to have this job while managing Tasteless a bit, but it's a bit too much. Sports casts tend to follow this kind of setup and it works well. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On the contrary, the rest of the group didn't impress me at all. Lots of fails on the gas drones. Having 4 drones on both geysers is a huge blunder. I don't know, it didn't feel like hero deserved to move on. It was just a build order win in the last game. Judging from his play before he would have lost to effort in a straight game imho... On September 29 2017 11:36 rackdude wrote: I think Tastosis needs a 3rd IMO. They need an Zerg player, encyclopedia person, adding some details and some facts. Tasteless is a great showrunner with Artosis being the brains for him to bounce off of, but they need the third guy/girl to interject with stats and very fine details about BOs and like as you say scouting patterns (mentioning things from the minimap that weren't on the screen). Artosis is supposed to have this job while managing Tasteless a bit, but it's a bit too much. Sports casts tend to follow this kind of setup and it works well. I think 3 people are too much. The problem is that Artosis lacks the in-depth knowledge of the game he used to have. I mean the duo worked great in SC2. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On September 29 2017 20:49 Ty2 wrote: The 4 drones on gas was intentional by hero. There are very slight gaps in gas income and it was heros intention to end the game off of 2 gases most likely. I'm not really sure if or where larva was behind on macro considering the matchup is very un macro intensive. The last game although being a build order win was a good mind game by hero (like a poker play) and a huge risk that could've easily gone the other way. That is just my take on the games and I thought I could shed some light. Eh what? I didn't notice that gap at all and even if there was a small gap I don't think it's worth it. Especially considering the map and the fact that they were playing passively and hero decided to take a third pretty much uncontested. The thing with larva's macro was his timings. If you payed close attention you could see that he was always a tad late with building structures or drones etc. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On September 24 2017 06:19 neptunusfisk wrote: I predict larva and hero to advance. Same method as FlaShFTW. Turns out my coins were telling the truth huh. Cool. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On October 03 2017 23:01 Alpha-NP- wrote: What 2 guys from group C have the best chance to give us a good series against Flash? Easily bisu and shuttle.. although mind also has potential (sorry ssak) | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
The best positions for a gas is directly above and the two positions to the left of the main building. Any other positions are bound to have inefficiencies. The optimal mining rate for 3 workers is on average 300 gas per minute, the absolute best being around 308. You can't get faster than that. Now some gas positions are absolutely terrible, being as low as 240ish gas per minute on average. That's around 60 gas per minute average difference with an optimal geyser, and in a little bit less than 2 minutes that is more than 100 gas difference, which in zvz will count for 1 mutalisk. Each gas position is different in mining rates on different maps and for each race. Now if the geyser was on top or to the left of the hatch, I might call that a mistake. But if not, it is most likely a deliberate choice from the player taking into account what mapmakers call the "gas issue". | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Piste
6177 Posts
If this is the case on crossing fields, I am wondering why the heck is it not fixed. It really hurts ZvZ. edit: Checked out the map, the gas was not positioned as bad as I remembered, but for fastest gas it still need 4 workers as it's on the right side to the hatchery. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 29 2017 11:36 rackdude wrote: I think Tastosis needs a 3rd IMO. They need an Zerg player, encyclopedia person, adding some details and some facts. Tasteless is a great showrunner with Artosis being the brains for him to bounce off of, but they need the third guy/girl to interject with stats and very fine details about BOs and like as you say scouting patterns (mentioning things from the minimap that weren't on the screen). Artosis is supposed to have this job while managing Tasteless a bit, but it's a bit too much. Sports casts tend to follow this kind of setup and it works well. And guess who comes to mind? DayNine. He plays Zerg, he pays a lot of attention to small details and can probably be an obnoxious nerd of the funny kind like his brother. But I don't really know if three isn't a bit too much. Don't korean casters for big events come in trios, though? | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On October 08 2017 01:43 Alpha-NP- wrote: For group C, I predict Bisu and Shuttle advance! Looking forward to it. Less than 17 hours away from this post! Hype!! I also LBd bisu and shuttle, I think they're the safe bets by quite a margin. KTY hwaiting!! | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
The ASL is a great thing. It's so good to be so hyped about Broodwar in 2017. I can have a couple of cheap nights in with a couple of beers and enjoy the show this week. | ||
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iopq
United States924 Posts
On September 29 2017 11:36 rackdude wrote: I think Tastosis needs a 3rd IMO. They need an Zerg player, encyclopedia person, adding some details and some facts. Tasteless is a great showrunner with Artosis being the brains for him to bounce off of, but they need the third guy/girl to interject with stats and very fine details about BOs and like as you say scouting patterns (mentioning things from the minimap that weren't on the screen). Artosis is supposed to have this job while managing Tasteless a bit, but it's a bit too much. Sports casts tend to follow this kind of setup and it works well. So me, right? I need to go to Korea? | ||
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