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On February 06 2012 20:29 1004 wrote:
well shotcoder, some people just aren't that skilled tbh.. they learn slower and improve slower, it would literally be a brain advantage... there are different factors for other people, but someone like puppykiller or lumire i guarantee cannot look at a map they don't play on and know what exactly they want to do on it, this is what people have to take into account... everyone is on their side of the spectrum, they don't put themselves into the other shoes
What..I wonder how they feel about you telling them what they can or cannot do.
It's not exactly hard to look at a map for 5 minutes to see what features you can take advantage of or builds you should do so you don't get abused.
The maps are fine, even if some of the maps are old, they're either played alot or have guarenteed interesting games in the past.
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I'm ok with one weird map, but why do we have to have several weird maps? One weird maps should be enough to allow "creative players" to do their "creative shit". Multiple weird maps just harass's anyone with time constraints or people who spend most of there time practicing "standard play", which is not uncommon at low levels since practicing "standard play" tends to yield the best results for anyone planning to improve.
I don't intend any disrespect to Shimy. Every tourney organizer (even for the D leagues) has a boner for weird maps. What I find strange is that low level tourneys are supposed to be more for the sake of the players than the viewers. I mean, who honestly wants to watch a C player strain his ass off trying to pull off some half baked strat on a map with retarded pathfinding vs another C player doing another equally retarded home brewed, moonshine, Make Your Own Pizza!, build order, both having no idea how each others strat interacts with the others. It is a miserable experience preparing several maps for a tourney just to get your cock stasised by a mind controlled arbiter on triathlon and getting rolled by lings because your marines on electric circuit thought that you wanted them to worship dark templar at the temple by the mineral only rather then support there comrades attacking the zergs third base.
Once again I am not opposed to a small number (like 2 in a map pool of 8) of weird maps, but the tourney shouldn't be dominantly weird maps or almost standard maps with multiple imposing gimmicks that people are not used to being present in there practice. Its unpleasant to prepare for and it makes for ugly games.
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imo C rank game nobody will want to see if its standard all the way so yeah weird strat is nicer to watch. weird map = train a player thinking process therefore improve the mentality a bit so playing a game with a strat in mind will make that player improve even faster.
my opinion ^^
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On February 06 2012 23:29 puppykiller wrote:
I'm ok with one weird map, but why do we have to have several weird maps? One weird maps should be enough to allow "creative players" to do their "creative shit". Multiple weird maps just harass's anyone with time constraints or people who spend most of there time practicing "standard play", which is not uncommon at low levels since practicing "standard play" tends to yield the best results for anyone planning to improve.
I don't intend any disrespect to Shimy. Every tourney organizer (even for the D leagues) has a boner for weird maps. What I find strange is that low level tourneys are supposed to be more for the sake of the players than the viewers. I mean, who honestly wants to watch a C player strain his ass off trying to pull off some half baked strat on a map with retarded pathfinding vs another C player doing another equally retarded home brewed, moonshine, Make Your Own Pizza!, build order, both having no idea how each others strat interacts with the others. It is a miserable experience preparing several maps for a tourney just to get your cock stasised by a mind controlled arbiter on triathlon and getting rolled by lings because your marines on electric circuit thought that you wanted them to worship dark templar at the temple by the mineral only rather then support there comrades attacking the zergs third base.
Once again I am not opposed to a small number (like 2 in a map pool of 8) of weird maps, but the tourney shouldn't be dominantly weird maps or almost standard maps with multiple imposing gimmicks that people are not used to being present in there practice. Its unpleasant to prepare for and it makes for ugly games.
I think the main problem is that all of the maps were not announced ahead of time, so that people who did not want to play on said maps would just not sign up, relieving the issue above. With this I can agree. I did enjoy your parables of your troubles LOL. I disagree with the rest, because I do also believe that a map pool of Python, FS, Desti over and over again would be boring. If everyone only wants to play/knows how to play standard, the creativity is lost.
Furthermore, each tournament deserves to be different. Some will reward certain styles of play, others will reward others. If your want for a tournament with the above constraints is so great, start your own!
Maps like Triathlon are definitely playable. You could have gone for a faster vessel + emp, or a dropship with goliaths and taken out all the free arbiters you could. He had to research mind control, get a DA, and then wait the relatively long period of time to get enough energy, and also get arbiter tech up the way one normally would and research stasis... It's a risky strategy, I know because I've done it myself. On Tau/Outsider, Protoss can get a faster shuttle instead of an earlier expansion. There are solutions to every problem, and yes sometimes execution will falter in the hands of a less experienced player, but that is why we have to practice, play smart, and be careful of map pathing.
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will the ro16 be casted today?
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I actually haven't been able to play my opponent because our times haven't matched up and now my computer that i play on decided to die. I'll probably end up installing SC on the laptop too
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On February 06 2012 23:57 Prof. Protoss wrote:
will the ro16 be casted today?
Yes. 9:30 EST time I believe. You really have to ask L_Master though. He's in charge of the casting.
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On February 07 2012 00:03 Yaqoob wrote:
I actually haven't been able to play my opponent because our times haven't matched up and now my computer that i play on decided to die. I'll probably end up installing SC on the laptop too
I'll give you a little more time, but just please try to play him sometime today :D
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On February 06 2012 23:41 S2Glow wrote:
imo C rank game nobody will want to see if its standard all the way so yeah weird strat is nicer to watch. weird map = train a player thinking process therefore improve the mentality a bit so playing a game with a strat in mind will make that player improve even faster.
my opinion ^^
Practicing cheese builds will hardly improve a player's ability to cheese or improve the thinking they approach the game with. However, learning the mechanics of the game and manipulating them is what creates a strong cheese player. If you don't know the mechanics of the game and how you are forcing your opponent to feel uncomfortable and adapt to your build with strong mechanics, you are playing a coin flip game. In other words, you are hoping for a cheap win rather than having the ability to make a game plan that will literally force your opponent to be mechanically competent by employing different variations in your 'creative cheese strategy.' If you don't go through this process then your build is based on pure luck, you will not see long term improvements, and you're wasting both players time from the perspective of skill development. If you want to avoid the coin flip cheese approach then learning how the game works first by standard play, then by incorporating cheese strategies will yield consistent results and long term improvement as long as you can find opponents who are mechanically competent, which you probably won't find in a C rank tournament or even on iCCup. That being said, I also don't understand the map pool for this tournament and many other foreign tournaments at all levels.
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Just to be clear one more time, I like a few weird maps. Just it would be a lot easier to prepare for them if their were a few "super standard" maps to balance them out. Maps that don't take much preparation.. That way we also get to put more effort into our preparation for the weird maps, and perhaps some of the odd strategies will be a bit better. No disrespect intended towards Shimy who I am very grateful towards for arranging this tourney  .
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Even though I hate most of these maps for various reasons (to be fair I hate most maps) , I don't think the map pool is really that bad.
In total there are 8 maps. Out of these, 4 are current PL maps, of which 1 you can make a case for being weird, but it's a PL map so it's k. Then there's 4 older maps, of which 2 I'd consider weird(Triathlon and Outsider). Tau Cross is standard enough and Destination was probably one of the most played maps pre-FS.
Ideally you'd have some experience playing on all the PL maps, not to mention that you can study off the current games being played on them. Tau Cross/Destination are common enough that you should have played them well enough. Triathlon and Outsider are wierd, but it's only 2 maps, of which you can veto one of them anyways so you can focus on the other.
I really don't think it's terrible.
Edit:
I do feel however, that the map pool is too big. 8 map is quite a lot to think about, especially given the time in between matches(like a day). Even for OSL there isn't more than 4 maps, and PL has only around 6, but most players just practice on one.
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So it looks like this tournament is moving right along, I enjoy being able to see games that are being played on these different maps, and I totally think that players having to play on maps they do not have a familiarization with is exciting and makes for more interesting games, just to shed a little light on my personal opinion of playing a lot of maps people aren't necessarily accustomed to playing, one time I was playing vs a korean player who was a lot better than me and we played on a lot of different maps I did not know, after losing all the games I was complaining about the maps and how I did not know them and so it made it harder for me to prepare and play good games vs him because of this, and what he told me was......"It's not the map, it's the player" , and I will never forget that. gl hf gg I hope the final sets of games are exciting to view.
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On February 06 2012 22:11 fold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 20:29 1004 wrote:
well shotcoder, some people just aren't that skilled tbh.. they learn slower and improve slower, it would literally be a brain advantage... there are different factors for other people, but someone like puppykiller or lumire i guarantee cannot look at a map they don't play on and know what exactly they want to do on it, this is what people have to take into account... everyone is on their side of the spectrum, they don't put themselves into the other shoes What..I wonder how they feel about you telling them what they can or cannot do. It's not exactly hard to look at a map for 5 minutes to see what features you can take advantage of or builds you should do so you don't get abused. The maps are fine, even if some of the maps are old, they're either played alot or have guarenteed interesting games in the past.
i have played with both of them enough to know that they are both tunnel vision players and are not experienced with completely altering their playstyle in even 5 minutes.
and @ lonelyprobe, by brain advantage i mean person a learns, improves, and practice efficiency per game is more than person b's; dunno how else to word it, if you don't understand that then lolol
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On February 07 2012 07:24 1004 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 22:11 fold wrote:On February 06 2012 20:29 1004 wrote:
well shotcoder, some people just aren't that skilled tbh.. they learn slower and improve slower, it would literally be a brain advantage... there are different factors for other people, but someone like puppykiller or lumire i guarantee cannot look at a map they don't play on and know what exactly they want to do on it, this is what people have to take into account... everyone is on their side of the spectrum, they don't put themselves into the other shoes What..I wonder how they feel about you telling them what they can or cannot do. It's not exactly hard to look at a map for 5 minutes to see what features you can take advantage of or builds you should do so you don't get abused. The maps are fine, even if some of the maps are old, they're either played alot or have guarenteed interesting games in the past. i have played with both of them enough to know that they are both tunnel vision players and are not experienced with completely altering their playstyle in even 5 minutes. and @ lonelyprobe, by brain advantage i mean person a learns, improves, and practice efficiency per game is more than person b's; dunno how else to word it, if you don't understand that then lolol
So what you're saying is, they are a better player? ...
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Shotcoder:
Let's say two people are playing tennis to see who is the best but on the very first match they play on a tennis court that has obstacles they have to jump over, duck between and etc. According to your theory the better player would win because he won't panic and will prepare properly.
I hope you can see how that makes no sense.. The better player would be the one that would win on tennis courts that are standard. Also if the tennis player lost the first match he would probably be a little shaken up going into the next match knowing he's already down a match.
And if you still don't get the point I'll drive it home. I've seen people who are twice the skill level of someone else lose to that person in BGH. Who's better the person who can win on non-money maps or the person who only wins on money maps? Obviously it "could" be perception. However, as we know starcraft the player who won on non-money maps is obviously more skilled over all. Yet, according to you the better player would "adapt" and not "panic".
Also some people didn't know they were playing triathlon until less then 24 hours prior to scheduled playing time and the map was non-veto since it was the first map given.
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I am not intending to disrespect shimy at all. I appreciate the tournament. The only reason I am saying more is because of people like shot coder bringing up arguments that make no sense.
How can you even begin to say that the better player would win on a non-standard map. That doesn't even make sense. It's like changing the basketball court and then saying "oh yeah the better team will win since this basketball court isn't a normal one"
LOL?
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lol lonelyprobe
some people are better at math than others
some people learn maps faster than others
herp derp
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On February 07 2012 08:09 1004 wrote:
lol lonelyprobe
some people are better at math than others
some people learn maps faster than others
herp derp
So they are superior at an aspect of the game, within the confines of the game. How does that not make them better players again?
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sigh
i'm saying that some people require more time than others to learn a new map. shotcoder works a 40hour job and goes to school and can still competently play on these maps that most people don't play on regularly. obviously he learns them fast or has played them in the past.
there are 24 hours in a day and everyone has lives to tend to, whether it be a job, school, sleep, what ever, but the point is that learning new maps makes it difficult for other people.
if you want to look at it as them being better players, then go for it. i look at it as an advantage in a learning process in general.
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Kevin (1004) is correct. When it comes to Starcraft, I have my share of retardations! I blame my Caucasian heritage.
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EPT
