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On February 06 2012 12:14 krndandaman wrote:
i played 3 of the maps in the map pool in my matches without ever playing on them before lol
all i played until now was FS, Python, Desti, HBR
Well things must of went right for you then. After I play on a map that I hate and don't know what to do it makes my follow up games suck as well because I am frustrated and paniced. Kind of along the lines of what lumire said.
Actually the only map that I really can't stand is Triathlon. Oh well nothing I can do about the maps now.
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On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play!
It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push?
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On February 06 2012 13:11 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play! It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push?
Wow, finally someone defending the maps :D Thanks haha
EDIT: Plus a lot of you are veterans of BW :/
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On February 06 2012 13:11 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play! It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push?
While outsider isn't my favorite it's a workable map. Triathlon is built sloppy and expansions on top of expansions. The map is so unusual how can you say the better player wins? Most maps are some-what the same. Maps like eletric Circuit and Triathlon are so different that its not the normal.
In other words weird maps that no one knows makes people panic or do things they normally wouldn't do. I don't see how that means the better player wins.
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On February 06 2012 13:17 Shimy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 13:11 Shotcoder wrote:On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play! It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push? Wow, finally someone defending the maps :D Thanks haha EDIT: Plus a lot of you are veterans of BW :/
I really have no problems with the maps at all. Except for Triathlon and Electric circuit. I am sorry but it's really effecting a lot of people in a negative way imo. It's no big deal really. I am just saying for next tourney it's ok to have different maps but these maps have a BGH feel to them imo.
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On February 06 2012 02:32 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 14:10 coolcrimefighter wrote:On February 05 2012 09:32 Zergneedsfood wrote:On February 05 2012 07:50 coolcrimefighter wrote:
WALA HWAITING
(#1 wala fanboy) What? Don't kid yourself. ?????????? I went all the way to his apartment just to meet him. That's true dedication right there. I think we need a bo9 grudgematch to settle this casted by Sayle. <_>
I concur with this. Sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyle!!!
Edit: Kiante needs to co-cast :DDD
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On February 06 2012 13:21 johny23 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 13:11 Shotcoder wrote:On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play! It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push? While outsider isn't my favorite it's a workable map. Triathlon is built sloppy and expansions on top of expansions. The map is so unusual how can you say the better player wins? Most maps are some-what the same. Maps like eletric Circuit and Triathlon are so different that its not the normal. In other words weird maps that no one knows makes people panic or do things they normally wouldn't do. I don't see how that means the better player wins.
The better player doesn't panic. The better player has a game plan. The better player studies not only his opponent but the maps. Not saying maps don't impact certain things like race distribution but playing on Longinus, Tau Cross, Fighting Spirit, Circuit Breaker, and Python is only so much fun.
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On February 06 2012 13:38 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 13:21 johny23 wrote:On February 06 2012 13:11 Shotcoder wrote:On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play! It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push? While outsider isn't my favorite it's a workable map. Triathlon is built sloppy and expansions on top of expansions. The map is so unusual how can you say the better player wins? Most maps are some-what the same. Maps like eletric Circuit and Triathlon are so different that its not the normal. In other words weird maps that no one knows makes people panic or do things they normally wouldn't do. I don't see how that means the better player wins. The better player doesn't panic. The better player has a game plan. The better player studies not only his opponent but the maps. Not saying maps don't impact certain things like race distribution but playing on Longinus, Tau Cross, Fighting Spirit, Circuit Breaker, and Python is only so much fun.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Triathlon is literally the only map I've ever seen that I cannot stand. It's unplayable for me. I guess if I practiced it I could get better but I don't have time to practice one map that isn't like any other map o.o
Oh well enough on that map. We'll just agree to disagree.
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On February 06 2012 13:17 Shimy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 13:11 Shotcoder wrote:On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play! It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push? Wow, finally someone defending the maps :D Thanks haha EDIT: Plus a lot of you are veterans of BW :/
A lot of us are not, I've only been playing bw for like 9 months.
Some races/matchups have easier time adjusting to certain maps then others, some have to do a completely different game plan that you have never done before on a map you've never seen/played before and it turns into a test of who has the most experience on certain maps or with a certain style or whoever has the widest range of practice partners that will sit down and play 10-15 games on the same map.
C players have enough trouble executing standard builds on standard maps. This is supposed to be a regular C tourney not a "RIBBONS 2001-2005 BW MAPS TOUR!" (an exaggeration but you get the point) and results in a huge drop in skill and bad games with gimmicky builds that will never be used by the players after this tour. If you're going to have 1-2 odd maps for people who want to go out on their own and practice those builds then that's totally fine and acceptable, but when you have series starting (BY FAR the most important game in a bo3) on a map you've never played before in your life you end up practicing one gimmicky build and end up flustered because you're already nervous coming into a tournament situation and playing a completely different style of play on a map you barely know where the bases are.
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Why do so many people feel entitled to whine about maps in the public tourney thread and not appeal to the host directly? I don't understand why anyone can't accept that maps chosen for a tournament are entirely up to the host of the tournament and it will undoubtedly leave a few people (usually the losers of Ro#) upset. That's life and you have to deal with it. I spent a lot of time studying BOs from progamer VODs and practicing on these wild maps and I still lost, and what I did was ask the host why I had to play on a certain map that I wanted to veto as my first map via PMs. Whining publicly about map X in match-up Y only hurts the motivation of the host to ever want to create a tournament like this again and I personally view it as a vocal minority trying to 'out' the admin as a poor one for a tournament. Despite my admitted displeasure at having to play Outsider PvT vs. dropship play as my necessitated match, I am very thankful for this tournament, and as such I feel that the tone many of you have taken is downright disrespectful to a person who nets 0 benefit from the running of this tournament besides knowing that they did something good for the community.
In short, I just want to say that we should all be a little more objective. This was a for-fun tournament for C ranks players, and if you lost/didn't like the maps, that's understandable. But is it such a big deal to be complaining about in the thread of a tournament that it still going on? I think not.
Just my 2 cents.
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Umm the maps seem pretty fair to me o_o
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On February 06 2012 13:49 Lumire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 13:17 Shimy wrote:On February 06 2012 13:11 Shotcoder wrote:On February 06 2012 11:37 puppykiller wrote:
I just need to ask... why the weird maps? Yes if you are a noob who hates BW and your name is Ribbon, watching pros do unconventional strategies on retarded maps is exciting. However, if you are a C level player who probably spends a lot of time practicing conventional strategies on more standard maps, and does not have the luxury of time that progamers have to come up with map specific strats, nor the guidance of 30 year old coaches who used to play BW back in 2001 when BW made no sense, you probably do not have the capability to produce a decent game on a map like triathlon or outsider. Weird maps both harass the players preparing for the tourney (by forcing them to waste time coming up with a gimmicky strategy that they will probably never use again) and diminish the the value for the viewers (as two noobs clumsily trying to figure out how there builds interact is painful to watch). Seriously its not like the C tour is for the viewers anyway.. its just for the players to get the experience of tourney like play! It doesn't even take that long to create a game plan for each and every map. You look at maps like Outside and immediately notice the easy 3rd and 4th mineral onlys, the extremely short push distance, and the easily droppable cliffs, expansions, and naturals. That means you can play greedy by going for a fast 3rd, timing push, or drop play. I don't understand how hard it is to come up with a game plan like that. then you sit down and play 10-15 games and find out which you are most comfortable with. What weird maps like this do is find out who the actual better all around player is. Not only do you have to create builds and prepare, but you have to innovate and think outside the box. Sure he could have made it all fighting spirit but how many TvPs do you want to see open 1 gate FE vs Seige expand into fast third into a 3/2 timing push? Wow, finally someone defending the maps :D Thanks haha EDIT: Plus a lot of you are veterans of BW :/ A lot of us are not, I've only been playing bw for like 9 months. Some races/matchups have easier time adjusting to certain maps then others, some have to do a completely different game plan that you have never done before on a map you've never seen/played before and it turns into a test of who has the most experience on certain maps or with a certain style or whoever has the widest range of practice partners that will sit down and play 10-15 games on the same map. C players have enough trouble executing standard builds on standard maps. This is supposed to be a regular C tourney not a "RIBBONS 2001-2005 BW MAPS TOUR!" (an exaggeration but you get the point) and results in a huge drop in skill and bad games with gimmicky builds that will never be used by the players after this tour. If you're going to have 1-2 odd maps for people who want to go out on their own and practice those builds then that's totally fine and acceptable, but when you have series starting (BY FAR the most important game in a bo3) on a map you've never played before in your life you end up practicing one gimmicky build and end up flustered because you're already nervous coming into a tournament situation and playing a completely different style of play on a map you barely know where the bases are.
I don't get what you're arguing here. You lose because you are unprepared both with your build and your familiarity with the map so we should use more conventional maps so that players who don't have the time or aren't willing to put in the effort to win have a better chance?
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for a lot of people, it's not a matter of "not willing to put in the effort", i'm sure a lot of people would love to play bw a ton if they actually could...
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Also, a lot of us are coming off a hiatus, props to people who played through PL droughts but I lost interest once the korea since hit the lull.
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Lumire please also consider that some of us (even us who didn't make it to the ro16) enjoy playing and watching games on those maps alot.
And never in my life would I have thought to see someone whine over having to play on a map such as triathlon, that map is really really fun to play as you can do the whackiest cheeses, gas heavy standard play and expand like crazy.
And please don't tell me you don't have time to play on triathlon when I've seen you on for 4+ hours friday and saturday
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^
to all who whine about map , this is my thought too
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On February 06 2012 15:39 1004 wrote:
for a lot of people, it's not a matter of "not willing to put in the effort", i'm sure a lot of people would love to play bw a ton if they actually could...
I found time to at least glance at the maps and decide what builds I wanted to do on each of them and I work 40 hours a week plus go to school full time. I really don't see the issue. It's the difference between glancing at these forums for 30 seconds or glancing at the map for 30 seconds. That's what separates players, not only the willingness but the ability to divide their time appropriately.
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well shotcoder, some people just aren't that skilled tbh.. they learn slower and improve slower, it would literally be a brain advantage... there are different factors for other people, but someone like puppykiller or lumire i guarantee cannot look at a map they don't play on and know what exactly they want to do on it, this is what people have to take into account... everyone is on their side of the spectrum, they don't put themselves into the other shoes
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On February 06 2012 20:29 1004 wrote:
well shotcoder, some people just aren't that skilled tbh.. they learn slower and improve slower, it would literally be a brain advantage... there are different factors for other people, but someone like puppykiller or lumire i guarantee cannot look at a map they don't play on and know what exactly they want to do on it, this is what people have to take into account... everyone is on their side of the spectrum, they don't put themselves into the other shoes
I think I sense sarcasm in this post, however if I am mistaken then a "brain advantage" sounds like the most legit reason to win in an RTS lol.
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EPT
