2 gate core would have allowed jaehoon to make dragoons to deal with the cannons ><
thats not an option because in order to stop the cannon leapfrog he would have to rush for a goon first, meanwhile his probe line would be raped by the zealots since he would have no zealot
Why wouldn't it have been an option? Jaehoon can still make zealots from his single gate while his core and 2nd gate warp in. It would have been 1 gate vs 1 gate micro to defend his probeline.
On December 21 2011 18:18 o[twist] wrote:
On December 21 2011 18:16 Elroi wrote: The problem is that Jaedong, Baby, Killer and Sea have to win 3 out of four games for T8 to win because of their bad protoss players... In OZ Jaedong only needed one more win from the rest of the team to get an ace match.
it wouldn't be such a problem if they weren't outcoached. why does sea keep getting protoss opponents? why play tyson and jaehoon?
It's hard to not get protoss opponents, in this case.
no there isnt enough money to get a 2nd gate on top of a core in a timely manner, and by the time you start producing goons from the 2nd gate the cannons will already be in range of his mineral line. not to mention cannon will win vs a dragoon 1v1 so he would have to get out at least 2 which by that time his econ will be wrecked
on top of that you have to realize that jaehoon thought it was going to be a 2 gate. if he had kept the core and brave was actually doing a 2 gate, that would be an autoloss so jh guessed wrong
It wouldn't have even mattered, brave's 2nd cannon would have been within core range if he hadn't cancelled it, so JH was screwed even if he stuck with the core and 2nd gate. the next cannon after that would have been within mineral range. The only way JH was going to win this was if he had gone 2 gate from the get go, allowing him to get zealots early enough to take out the 2nd cannon.
On December 21 2011 17:50 o[twist] wrote: against 3 protoss (on a team full of protoss) team 8 fielded 2 mediocre protoss and an underperforming terran. they benched one zerg and sent their other into a ZvZ where he nearly fell victim to a bo loss.
that's being out-coached if you ask me.
I saw someone mention "BO loss" earlier, maybe you, and it just isn't appropriate. It's confusing the fickle nature of low-econ play which is inherent to ZvZ with actual build order losses. BO losses really don't exist in ZvZ now, and certainly not when Jaedong is playing. Although I understand the need to somehow paint JD as being in a bad spot so we can marvel at how awesome he is, there was no danger of BO losing, just a danger of losing.
i don't understand this post, but i'm pretty sure it's wrong. if you can lose in a minute to early aggression, but are able to avoid the loss by luckily scouting your opponent's build, that's a bo loss.
Allow me to clarify. ZvZ has a lot of razor's edge situations. One mistake fucks the player's whole game. When he makes the mistake we use hindsight to incorrectly think he had no chance to begin with.
Say JD is BO loss but he wins -> lol JvZ dongling omg fangasm. That makes it easy to call something a BO loss that isn't. JD has defended 12hatches frequently before. Having a disadvantage into losing isn't the same as a BO loss, a BO loss is when you have only marginal chances.
i honestly have no idea what kind of distinction you're trying to make. do you honestly think jaedong stood a chance if he hadn't scouted that? as it is it was only roro's anxiety about jaedong's sunken colony that kept him in the game, and he was still at a disadvantage after that.
i mean, he canceled the hatch. that should tell you all you need to know about the viability of 12h against 9p.
Starting to see a pattern of you having no idea about what you're quoting.
If you want to make points like that well, he won the game, that should tell you all you need to know about 12hatch and 9pool. You won't get any game knowledge generalizing from one match. For instance, there are games on the other extreme where he has just perfectly defended the hatchery and just killed the guy with zerglings.
The fact that he scouted anything doesn't seem relevant to the builds. 12 hatch is very respectable chances against 9pool in general, despite that there may be map/positional nuances like overlord directions. I believe this is different from say 14 nex and BBS, which just dies in any situation (and is an obvious and uncontroversial BO loss).
And viability is totally different. Many things which aren't standard (because they don't give us the best chances possible) are nonetheless viable because they still have fair winning chances or very appropriate situations, that's why we see strategies played even when the audience doesn't understand what the fuck the player's intention was.
Imo BO loss and BO disadvantage are synonyms. Besides, I don't think it is ever clear when a build loses 100% of the time to another build. I think Flash could defend a BBS while going fast expand if I were his opponent lol.
On December 21 2011 18:39 Emperor_Earth wrote: Weren't the additions to TeamJaedong and KT STATS supposed to not make them one man teams with random days of support? Nothing's changed...
What if jaehoon would have just gathered as much minerals as possible while sending his zealots to braves base and then built a new nexus in brave's main? Worst case scenario he's even, right? Think about it. Brave loses money with early scout. Brave also spends money on early forge + cannons means that jaehoon should have more zealots which means he should be able to base trade no problem right?
Jangbi vs. Sea was a great watch. Sea played it like a trooper but he was losing far too many tanks. Should have defended better. Jangbi playing like a boss! 2 gate vs. fast expand!? Not to mention Stork's goon micro that gave him all the advantage he ever needed during mirror builds. Khan so scary right now. And they still have Shine, Reality, Turn, & Grape on the bench! Khan vs. CJ in the finals - calling it now.
On December 21 2011 18:55 kidcrash wrote: What if jaehoon would have just gathered as much minerals as possible while sending his zealots to braves base and then built a new nexus in brave's main? Worst case scenario he's even, right? Think about it. Brave loses money with early scout. Brave also spends money on early forge + cannons means that jaehoon should have more zealots which means he should be able to base trade no problem right?
he didn't have that many zealots out, one cannon and the probes defending would have been enough to stop it, and JH would have just wasted more resources, meanwhile his mineral line is no longer mineable because brave would have continued to leap frog, the 3rd cannon at the main was already well within range of the mineral line. So I don't think that would work
This new proleague format is so depressing. There is almost never the star vs. star matchup I crave when I see the two teams' names. Now we have to rely on happenstance that both stars are sent out at the time same.
On December 21 2011 18:55 kidcrash wrote: What if jaehoon would have just gathered as much minerals as possible while sending his zealots to braves base and then built a new nexus in brave's main? Worst case scenario he's even, right? Think about it. Brave loses money with early scout. Brave also spends money on early forge + cannons means that jaehoon should have more zealots which means he should be able to base trade no problem right?
he didn't have that many zealots out, one cannon and the probes defending would have been enough to stop it, and JH would have just wasted more resources, meanwhile his mineral line is no longer mineable because brave would have continued to leap frog, the 3rd cannon at the main was already well within range of the mineral line. So I don't think that would work
Doesn't look like brave even had a pylon in his main but I could be wrong. I think it could have worked if he cut the shield battery and left 1 gate pumping zealots to defend his own mineral line from zealots (once cannon finished abandon ship) and used the second gateway to send zealots to braves base. I think Braves minerals were extremely tight that game hence no pylon in the main.
On December 21 2011 18:55 kidcrash wrote: What if jaehoon would have just gathered as much minerals as possible while sending his zealots to braves base and then built a new nexus in brave's main? Worst case scenario he's even, right? Think about it. Brave loses money with early scout. Brave also spends money on early forge + cannons means that jaehoon should have more zealots which means he should be able to base trade no problem right?
he didn't have that many zealots out, one cannon and the probes defending would have been enough to stop it, and JH would have just wasted more resources, meanwhile his mineral line is no longer mineable because brave would have continued to leap frog, the 3rd cannon at the main was already well within range of the mineral line. So I don't think that would work
Doesn't look like brave even had a pylon in his main but I could be wrong. I think it could have worked if he cut the shield battery and left 1 gate pumping zealots to defend his own mineral line from zealots (once cannon finished abandon ship) and used the second gateway to send zealots to braves base. I think Braves minerals were extremely tight that game hence no pylon in the main.
Hindsight 20/20 etc etc
1. Jaehoon did not expect the cannon rush. He expected a simply proxy gateway which is why he made the battery 2. Brave could have easily blocked the ramp with some zealots of his own while the cannons are raining death on Jaehoon's units 3. Abandons ship to where? I'll play along here, Jaehoon goes to one of the side bases and remakes his nexus. In this time Brave, who has still mining and not lost any important structures, makes lots of zealots and kills Jaehoon.
On December 21 2011 18:55 kidcrash wrote: What if jaehoon would have just gathered as much minerals as possible while sending his zealots to braves base and then built a new nexus in brave's main? Worst case scenario he's even, right? Think about it. Brave loses money with early scout. Brave also spends money on early forge + cannons means that jaehoon should have more zealots which means he should be able to base trade no problem right?
he didn't have that many zealots out, one cannon and the probes defending would have been enough to stop it, and JH would have just wasted more resources, meanwhile his mineral line is no longer mineable because brave would have continued to leap frog, the 3rd cannon at the main was already well within range of the mineral line. So I don't think that would work
Doesn't look like brave even had a pylon in his main but I could be wrong. I think it could have worked if he cut the shield battery and left 1 gate pumping zealots to defend his own mineral line from zealots (once cannon finished abandon ship) and used the second gateway to send zealots to braves base. I think Braves minerals were extremely tight that game hence no pylon in the main.
Hindsight 20/20 etc etc
1. Jaehoon did not expect the cannon rush. He expected a simply proxy gateway which is why he made the battery 2. Brave could have easily blocked the ramp with some zealots of his own while the cannons are raining death on Jaehoon's units 3. Abandons ship to where? I'll play along here, Jaehoon goes to one of the side bases and remakes his nexus. In this time Brave, who has still mining and not lost any important structures, makes lots of zealots and kills Jaehoon.
Yeah hindsight is 20/20 and honestly I probably would have expected proxy gates too if I were in his shoes. Probably easier than it sounds but I think my first instinct in that situation would have been to sneak zealots passed and try to take braves main and then set up shop there.
Edit. Yeah I rewatched it a 3rd time and jaehoon building shield battery + forge sealed the deal.
To be honest, if Jaehoon had focus-attacked the second cannon with his zealots and probes, and then force-cancelled the third cannon, he could have been in good shape. Brave's first cannon would not been in range to do anything. And Brave would only have zealots against Jaehoon's zealots AND shield battery. All Jaehoon would have to do after that is prevent any subsequent cannons to be built on the low ground and eventually break the contain.
What happened was: Jaehoon focused the second cannon with his two zealots while all of probes attacked the zealots. In the end, the second cannon didn't even go down.
On December 21 2011 19:08 Thorin wrote: This new proleague format is so depressing. There is almost never the star vs. star matchup I crave when I see the two teams' names. Now we have to rely on happenstance that both stars are sent out at the time same.
Though we see less star vs. star matches, watching teams play is a lot more fun when they aren't dependent on the Ace for the win. Every game counts so every players comes prepared, sometimes with fun and innovative build that are awesome for the game. Sea lost to Shy because he hallucinated arbiters. Then he lost to Jangbi because he opened 2-gate! Players are rethinking the game and it's so much fun to watch. Hopefully the OSL will start soon though
On December 21 2011 19:33 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote: Aw man, this is NOT what I wanted to see when I woke up..... -____________-.
I am extremely confused why neither Killer or BaBy make an appearance here...
I can only assume that Coach thought PvP > KillervP which makes absolutely no sense when the team is Khan. Or maybe he's being punished for losing so many ZvZs when that's supposed to be his best matchup.
The MBC players need to get their shit together too, far too many losses from Sea, Jaehoon and Tyson, unfortunately.
CJ should hopefully prove a better match though for T8. If they win that, we're good and should be able to enter round 2 on a strong platform.
On December 21 2011 19:33 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote: Aw man, this is NOT what I wanted to see when I woke up..... -____________-.
I am extremely confused why neither Killer or BaBy make an appearance here...
I can only assume that Coach thought PvP > KillervP which makes absolutely no sense when the team is Khan. Or maybe he's being punished for losing so many ZvZs when that's supposed to be his best matchup.
The MBC players need to get their shit together too, far too many losses from Sea, Jaehoon and Tyson, unfortunately.
CJ should hopefully prove a better match though for T8. If they win that, we're good and should be able to enter round 2 on a strong platform.
Jaehoon lost to Bisu, Flash, ZerO and then a cheese from Brave, you make it sound alot easier then it really is.
I think T8 needs more players. They don't have any flexibility since they only have a playable roster of 6. They should have picked up Hiya.
I don't understand why they didn't play Baby. His play has been beautiful this season. He could beat the Samsung Twin Canons on a good day and he's having good days.
EPT
