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thats true, even i thought it was going to be 2gate.
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On December 21 2011 18:11 KenNage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky. no, he should have scouted with the pylon probe, its quite a difference. u go u see nothing u know its cheese, jaehoon got greedy at scouting with the gate probe in a 1v1 map and lost for that.
maybe that's true, pylon probe instead of gate probe. it's still not an insanely late scout. obviously he lost, i just think that this was intelligent cheese on brave's/khan's part and put him in a very tough position where there wasn't really much of an optimal action.
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On December 21 2011 18:12 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:11 Fontong wrote:On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky. Hard to call something that lost in under 5min 'not risky' i really don't know what you're talking about. brave could have done any cheese anywhere. jaehoon obviously didn't anticipate that specific cheese. nobody else has done it on that map before. has anybody else even checked for it on that map before? i don't think so, but i could be wrong.
You don't know that guessing about your opponent's build is risky?
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On December 21 2011 18:14 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:12 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:11 Fontong wrote:On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky. Hard to call something that lost in under 5min 'not risky' i really don't know what you're talking about. brave could have done any cheese anywhere. jaehoon obviously didn't anticipate that specific cheese. nobody else has done it on that map before. has anybody else even checked for it on that map before? i don't think so, but i could be wrong. You don't know that guessing about your opponent's build is risky?
...i don't really see what the alternative is, besides knowing in advance whether your opponent will cheese and where and what that cheese will be.
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On December 21 2011 18:09 Sawamura wrote:
2 gate core would have allowed jaehoon to make dragoons to deal with the cannons ><
thats not an option because in order to stop the cannon leapfrog he would have to rush for a goon first, meanwhile his probe line would be raped by the zealots since he would have no zealot
also goons are only good and cost efficient vs cannons when you have 3+
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The problem is that Jaedong, Baby, Killer and Sea have to win 3 out of four games for T8 to win because of their bad protoss players... In OZ Jaedong only needed one more win from the rest of the team to get an ace match.
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On December 21 2011 18:15 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:14 Fontong wrote:On December 21 2011 18:12 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:11 Fontong wrote:On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky. Hard to call something that lost in under 5min 'not risky' i really don't know what you're talking about. brave could have done any cheese anywhere. jaehoon obviously didn't anticipate that specific cheese. nobody else has done it on that map before. has anybody else even checked for it on that map before? i don't think so, but i could be wrong. You don't know that guessing about your opponent's build is risky? ...i don't really see what the alternative is, besides knowing in advance whether your opponent will cheese and where and what that cheese will be.
So basically, you are trying to say that Jaehoon took a calculated risk and got boned because he was wrong?
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On December 21 2011 18:16 Elroi wrote:
The problem is that Jaedong, Baby, Killer and Sea have to win 3 out of four games for T8 to win because of their bad protoss players... In OZ Jaedong only needed one more win from the rest of the team to get an ace match.
it wouldn't be such a problem if they weren't outcoached. why does sea keep getting protoss opponents? why play tyson and jaehoon?
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United States1719 Posts
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU MY FPL TEAM T_T
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On December 21 2011 18:16 lFrost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:09 Sawamura wrote:
2 gate core would have allowed jaehoon to make dragoons to deal with the cannons >< thats not an option because in order to stop the cannon leapfrog he would have to rush for a goon first, meanwhile his probe line would be raped by the zealots since he would have no zealot
Why wouldn't it have been an option? Jaehoon can still make zealots from his single gate while his core and 2nd gate warp in. It would have been 1 gate vs 1 gate micro to defend his probeline.
On December 21 2011 18:18 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:16 Elroi wrote:
The problem is that Jaedong, Baby, Killer and Sea have to win 3 out of four games for T8 to win because of their bad protoss players... In OZ Jaedong only needed one more win from the rest of the team to get an ace match. it wouldn't be such a problem if they weren't outcoached. why does sea keep getting protoss opponents? why play tyson and jaehoon?
It's hard to not get protoss opponents, in this case.
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On December 21 2011 18:17 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:15 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:14 Fontong wrote:On December 21 2011 18:12 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:11 Fontong wrote:On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:
[quote]
I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky. Hard to call something that lost in under 5min 'not risky' i really don't know what you're talking about. brave could have done any cheese anywhere. jaehoon obviously didn't anticipate that specific cheese. nobody else has done it on that map before. has anybody else even checked for it on that map before? i don't think so, but i could be wrong. You don't know that guessing about your opponent's build is risky? ...i don't really see what the alternative is, besides knowing in advance whether your opponent will cheese and where and what that cheese will be. So basically, you are trying to say that Jaehoon took a calculated risk and got boned because he was wrong?
yes. i think this is a different position from saying "he should have x," as people were above. i also think it would have been pretty difficult not to be boned by that build.
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On December 21 2011 18:06 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:04 oBlade wrote:On December 21 2011 17:56 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 17:55 oBlade wrote:On December 21 2011 17:50 o[twist] wrote:
against 3 protoss (on a team full of protoss) team 8 fielded 2 mediocre protoss and an underperforming terran. they benched one zerg and sent their other into a ZvZ where he nearly fell victim to a bo loss.
that's being out-coached if you ask me. I saw someone mention "BO loss" earlier, maybe you, and it just isn't appropriate. It's confusing the fickle nature of low-econ play which is inherent to ZvZ with actual build order losses. BO losses really don't exist in ZvZ now, and certainly not when Jaedong is playing. Although I understand the need to somehow paint JD as being in a bad spot so we can marvel at how awesome he is, there was no danger of BO losing, just a danger of losing. i don't understand this post, but i'm pretty sure it's wrong. if you can lose in a minute to early aggression, but are able to avoid the loss by luckily scouting your opponent's build, that's a bo loss. Allow me to clarify. ZvZ has a lot of razor's edge situations. One mistake fucks the player's whole game. When he makes the mistake we use hindsight to incorrectly think he had no chance to begin with. Say JD is BO loss but he wins -> lol JvZ dongling omg fangasm. That makes it easy to call something a BO loss that isn't. JD has defended 12hatches frequently before. Having a disadvantage into losing isn't the same as a BO loss, a BO loss is when you have only marginal chances. i honestly have no idea what kind of distinction you're trying to make. do you honestly think jaedong stood a chance if he hadn't scouted that? as it is it was only roro's anxiety about jaedong's sunken colony that kept him in the game, and he was still at a disadvantage after that. i mean, he canceled the hatch. that should tell you all you need to know about the viability of 12h against 9p.
Starting to see a pattern of you having no idea about what you're quoting.
If you want to make points like that well, he won the game, that should tell you all you need to know about 12hatch and 9pool. You won't get any game knowledge generalizing from one match. For instance, there are games on the other extreme where he has just perfectly defended the hatchery and just killed the guy with zerglings.
The fact that he scouted anything doesn't seem relevant to the builds. 12 hatch is very respectable chances against 9pool in general, despite that there may be map/positional nuances like overlord directions. I believe this is different from say 14 nex and BBS, which just dies in any situation (and is an obvious and uncontroversial BO loss).
And viability is totally different. Many things which aren't standard (because they don't give us the best chances possible) are nonetheless viable because they still have fair winning chances or very appropriate situations, that's why we see strategies played even when the audience doesn't understand what the fuck the player's intention was.
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Chile885 Posts
im pretty confident that jaehoon would have won that if he scouted at the pylon probe, he got the eco advantage, he would have been in brave main quite a few seconds early, scouted the cheese with 1 probe, since he was ahead like what 3-4 probes? its a cheese u just need to defend and u most likely gonna win, because theres just 2 spots to cheese in this map, where brave did and in the third, also he should have attack the low ground cannon as soon as it was made, not let it almost finish and then attack >.>
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On December 21 2011 18:19 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:16 lFrost wrote:On December 21 2011 18:09 Sawamura wrote:
2 gate core would have allowed jaehoon to make dragoons to deal with the cannons >< thats not an option because in order to stop the cannon leapfrog he would have to rush for a goon first, meanwhile his probe line would be raped by the zealots since he would have no zealot Why wouldn't it have been an option? Jaehoon can still make zealots from his single gate while his core and 2nd gate warp in. It would have been 1 gate vs 1 gate micro to defend his probeline. Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:18 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:16 Elroi wrote:
The problem is that Jaedong, Baby, Killer and Sea have to win 3 out of four games for T8 to win because of their bad protoss players... In OZ Jaedong only needed one more win from the rest of the team to get an ace match. it wouldn't be such a problem if they weren't outcoached. why does sea keep getting protoss opponents? why play tyson and jaehoon? It's hard to not get protoss opponents, in this case.
no there isnt enough money to get a 2nd gate on top of a core in a timely manner, and by the time you start producing goons from the 2nd gate the cannons will already be in range of his mineral line. not to mention cannon will win vs a dragoon 1v1 so he would have to get out at least 2 which by that time his econ will be wrecked
on top of that you have to realize that jaehoon thought it was going to be a 2 gate. if he had kept the core and brave was actually doing a 2 gate, that would be an autoloss so jh guessed wrong
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so much for these maps being anti protoss. toss are dominating terrans and pvps are everywhere
bunch of whiners lol
i still like pvp though
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never trusting the protoss players when they whine map imba ever again.
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Jesus Christ, Jaehoon, just have read the last game lr ((((
I'm so disappointed. I guess next time Jaehoon decides to play he should just ragequit to make his losses even more embarrassing. This is not even funny. I understand that he was a scape goat in all his T8 matches, but did we see a good play from him at least, fucking no.
I would field him on a bench for forever unless there was nobody to send out. I will never forget his "epic" game with Roro, that tells us all about his sc career skill and defines him as a bad to mediocre sc player.
The only reasonable explanation for sending Jaehoon today, was his desperate need for a win, just to keep him motivated enough. ANd now he was cannon rushed, I would give him one more chance after this, but if he fails again, I would bench him and never let out.
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On December 21 2011 18:22 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:06 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:04 oBlade wrote:On December 21 2011 17:56 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 17:55 oBlade wrote:On December 21 2011 17:50 o[twist] wrote:
against 3 protoss (on a team full of protoss) team 8 fielded 2 mediocre protoss and an underperforming terran. they benched one zerg and sent their other into a ZvZ where he nearly fell victim to a bo loss.
that's being out-coached if you ask me. I saw someone mention "BO loss" earlier, maybe you, and it just isn't appropriate. It's confusing the fickle nature of low-econ play which is inherent to ZvZ with actual build order losses. BO losses really don't exist in ZvZ now, and certainly not when Jaedong is playing. Although I understand the need to somehow paint JD as being in a bad spot so we can marvel at how awesome he is, there was no danger of BO losing, just a danger of losing. i don't understand this post, but i'm pretty sure it's wrong. if you can lose in a minute to early aggression, but are able to avoid the loss by luckily scouting your opponent's build, that's a bo loss. Allow me to clarify. ZvZ has a lot of razor's edge situations. One mistake fucks the player's whole game. When he makes the mistake we use hindsight to incorrectly think he had no chance to begin with. Say JD is BO loss but he wins -> lol JvZ dongling omg fangasm. That makes it easy to call something a BO loss that isn't. JD has defended 12hatches frequently before. Having a disadvantage into losing isn't the same as a BO loss, a BO loss is when you have only marginal chances. i honestly have no idea what kind of distinction you're trying to make. do you honestly think jaedong stood a chance if he hadn't scouted that? as it is it was only roro's anxiety about jaedong's sunken colony that kept him in the game, and he was still at a disadvantage after that. i mean, he canceled the hatch. that should tell you all you need to know about the viability of 12h against 9p. Starting to see a pattern of you having no idea about what you're quoting. If you want to make points like that well, he won the game, that should tell you all you need to know about 12hatch and 9pool. You won't get any game knowledge generalizing from one match. For instance, there are games on the other extreme where he has just perfectly defended the hatchery and just killed the guy with zerglings. The fact that he scouted anything doesn't seem relevant to the builds. 12 hatch is very respectable chances against 9pool in general, despite that there may be map/positional nuances like overlord directions. I believe this is different from say 14 nex and BBS, which just dies in any situation (and is an obvious and uncontroversial BO loss). And viability is totally different. Many things which aren't standard (because they don't give us the best chances possible) are nonetheless viable because they still have fair winning chances or very appropriate situations, that's why we see strategies played even when the audience doesn't understand what the fuck the player's intention was.
i'm not really sure why you have to start going and being rude. that said, i was not talking about 12h and 9p in general. i've seen enough ZvZ, in fact enough JvZ, to know that in some situations it's not in fact a bo loss every time. larger maps, cross-map, etc. in this situation, however, had jaedong not scouted it, it would have been a bo loss, because it would have been practically unwinnable had he not canceled the hatch and built the sunken. if that's not what bo loss means, then i apologize, but it's how i've generally seen the terms used in my years watching bw and reading bw commentary. if you want to make up a new term that means "a loss because of build orders, but not build orders that universally and in every situation lead to a certain result, but did in this situation," feel free. i'm pretty sure, though, that when other people say bo loss, that's what they mean. what you're taking it to mean is more like what people mean with cheese, imo.
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On December 21 2011 18:05 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:53 Dakkas wrote:On December 21 2011 17:51 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 17:49 Dakkas wrote:On December 21 2011 17:48 Release wrote:
JvZ got the momentum going and MBC just drops dead. Oh quit this crap, Stork and Jangbi in two of their best match-ups. Brave pulling some retarded cheese that could get just about anyone Are you telling me you honestly believe that Baby or Killer could take on Stork or Jangbi in-form? if they were in-form? sure. baby has phenomenally abusive TvP when he's playing well and killer is a top zerg talent. Baby is good but against the two best PvTers? Baby can't even beat Bisu using carriers and you expect him to beat two PvTers better than Bisu? Really? REALLY?!?!?! And Killer is also good however he isn't as good as he was near the end of last season EDIT: I'm not saying they'll get rolled but I would never bet on them against in-form Stork and Jangbi 2nd EDIT: I will agree that those two are 'better' choices but not going to be that different. if you say so
I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. He has a terrible record against Jangbi and he has a 100% (!!!) record against Stork?
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On December 21 2011 18:25 Motivate wrote:
so much for these maps being anti protoss. toss are dominating terrans and pvps are everywhere
bunch of whiners lol
i still like pvp though
Do you ever stop whining or is it something you were taught since childhood?
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EPT
