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On December 21 2011 17:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:50 o[twist] wrote:
against 3 protoss (on a team full of protoss) team 8 fielded 2 mediocre protoss and an underperforming terran. they benched one zerg and sent their other into a ZvZ where he nearly fell victim to a bo loss.
that's being out-coached if you ask me. I saw someone mention "BO loss" earlier, maybe you, and it just isn't appropriate. It's confusing the fickle nature of low-econ play which is inherent to ZvZ with actual build order losses. BO losses really don't exist in ZvZ now, and certainly not when Jaedong is playing. Although I understand the need to somehow paint JD as being in a bad spot so we can marvel at how awesome he is, there was no danger of BO losing, just a danger of losing.
Yes... he was in danger of losing, due to a BO disadvantage
ergo BO loss
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On December 21 2011 17:55 oBlade wrote:
I saw someone mention "BO loss" earlier, maybe you, and it just isn't appropriate. It's confusing the fickle nature of low-econ play which is inherent to ZvZ with actual build order losses. BO losses really don't exist in ZvZ now, and certainly not when Jaedong is playing. Although I understand the need to somehow paint JD as being in a bad spot so we can marvel at how awesome he is, there was no danger of BO losing, just a danger of losing.
Huh? If JD overlord scouts in a different direction, he doesn't see the lings in time, doesn't cancel his hatch, and loses... right?
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On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think
I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily.
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Thank you for the streams (nanashin) and the LR thread!!
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On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily.
High ground cannons with zealots tanking is something few could hold
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On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily.
Being decisive wasn't his problem. He simply guessed wrong. He canceled his core and added 2nd gate and battery in preparation of proxy 2 gate. He had a good shot if it really was a proxy 2-gate. But it wasn't.
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On December 21 2011 17:56 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:55 oBlade wrote:On December 21 2011 17:50 o[twist] wrote:
against 3 protoss (on a team full of protoss) team 8 fielded 2 mediocre protoss and an underperforming terran. they benched one zerg and sent their other into a ZvZ where he nearly fell victim to a bo loss.
that's being out-coached if you ask me. I saw someone mention "BO loss" earlier, maybe you, and it just isn't appropriate. It's confusing the fickle nature of low-econ play which is inherent to ZvZ with actual build order losses. BO losses really don't exist in ZvZ now, and certainly not when Jaedong is playing. Although I understand the need to somehow paint JD as being in a bad spot so we can marvel at how awesome he is, there was no danger of BO losing, just a danger of losing. i don't understand this post, but i'm pretty sure it's wrong. if you can lose in a minute to early aggression, but are able to avoid the loss by luckily scouting your opponent's build, that's a bo loss.
Allow me to clarify. ZvZ has a lot of razor's edge situations. One mistake fucks the player's whole game. When he makes the mistake we use hindsight to incorrectly think he had no chance to begin with.
Say JD is BO loss but he wins -> lol JvZ dongling omg fangasm. That makes it easy to call something a BO loss that isn't. JD has defended 12hatches frequently before. Having a disadvantage into losing isn't the same as a BO loss, a BO loss is when you have only marginal chances.
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After watching today's match, I definitely think Team 8's biggest weakness is the coaching staff. The coaching staff of Samsung Khan just completely dominated Team 8. They brought out a specific strategy designed to catch the opponent off guard in every single game. Sending out both Tyson and Jaehoon in the same match was honestly a terrible idea. I can see that they were trying to give the protoss players more chances and hopefully boost their confidence but this was not the team to try that against. Samsung has the most protoss players and arguably the best protoss players as well. Tyson and Jaehoon both have horrendous PvP records. Why decide to send out both of your protosses in a match where they're very likely to get set up in their worst matchup? It just doesn't make much sense to me.
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On December 21 2011 17:53 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:51 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 17:49 Dakkas wrote:On December 21 2011 17:48 Release wrote:
JvZ got the momentum going and MBC just drops dead. Oh quit this crap, Stork and Jangbi in two of their best match-ups. Brave pulling some retarded cheese that could get just about anyone Are you telling me you honestly believe that Baby or Killer could take on Stork or Jangbi in-form? if they were in-form? sure. baby has phenomenally abusive TvP when he's playing well and killer is a top zerg talent. Baby is good but against the two best PvTers? Baby can't even beat Bisu using carriers and you expect him to beat two PvTers better than Bisu? Really? REALLY?!?!?! And Killer is also good however he isn't as good as he was near the end of last season EDIT: I'm not saying they'll get rolled but I would never bet on them against in-form Stork and Jangbi 2nd EDIT: I will agree that those two are 'better' choices but not going to be that different.
if you say so
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily.
This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely.
There is no way you can defend that.
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On December 21 2011 18:04 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:56 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 17:55 oBlade wrote:On December 21 2011 17:50 o[twist] wrote:
against 3 protoss (on a team full of protoss) team 8 fielded 2 mediocre protoss and an underperforming terran. they benched one zerg and sent their other into a ZvZ where he nearly fell victim to a bo loss.
that's being out-coached if you ask me. I saw someone mention "BO loss" earlier, maybe you, and it just isn't appropriate. It's confusing the fickle nature of low-econ play which is inherent to ZvZ with actual build order losses. BO losses really don't exist in ZvZ now, and certainly not when Jaedong is playing. Although I understand the need to somehow paint JD as being in a bad spot so we can marvel at how awesome he is, there was no danger of BO losing, just a danger of losing. i don't understand this post, but i'm pretty sure it's wrong. if you can lose in a minute to early aggression, but are able to avoid the loss by luckily scouting your opponent's build, that's a bo loss. Allow me to clarify. ZvZ has a lot of razor's edge situations. One mistake fucks the player's whole game. When he makes the mistake we use hindsight to incorrectly think he had no chance to begin with. Say JD is BO loss but he wins -> lol JvZ dongling omg fangasm. That makes it easy to call something a BO loss that isn't. JD has defended 12hatches frequently before. Having a disadvantage into losing isn't the same as a BO loss, a BO loss is when you have only marginal chances.
i honestly have no idea what kind of distinction you're trying to make. do you honestly think jaedong stood a chance if he hadn't scouted that? as it is it was only roro's anxiety about jaedong's sunken colony that kept him in the game, and he was still at a disadvantage after that.
i mean, he canceled the hatch. that should tell you all you need to know about the viability of 12h against 9p.
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On December 21 2011 18:05 kingalexxx wrote:
After watching today's match, I definitely think Team 8's biggest weakness is the coaching staff. The coaching staff of Samsung Khan just completely dominated Team 8. They brought out a specific strategy designed to catch the opponent off guard in every single game. Sending out both Tyson and Jaehoon in the same match was honestly a terrible idea. I can see that they were trying to give the protoss players more chances and hopefully boost their confidence but this was not the team to try that against. Samsung has the most protoss players and arguably the best protoss players as well. Tyson and Jaehoon both have horrendous PvP records. Why decide to send out both of your protosses in a match where they're very likely to get set up in their worst matchup? It just doesn't make much sense to me.
Maybe samsung khan protoss players are just too good rather than the coaching staff  .
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On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that.
he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map?
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On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map?
you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky.
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On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky.
2 gate core would have allowed jaehoon to make dragoons to deal with the cannons ><
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On December 21 2011 18:07 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:05 kingalexxx wrote:
After watching today's match, I definitely think Team 8's biggest weakness is the coaching staff. The coaching staff of Samsung Khan just completely dominated Team 8. They brought out a specific strategy designed to catch the opponent off guard in every single game. Sending out both Tyson and Jaehoon in the same match was honestly a terrible idea. I can see that they were trying to give the protoss players more chances and hopefully boost their confidence but this was not the team to try that against. Samsung has the most protoss players and arguably the best protoss players as well. Tyson and Jaehoon both have horrendous PvP records. Why decide to send out both of your protosses in a match where they're very likely to get set up in their worst matchup? It just doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe samsung khan protoss players are just too good rather than the coaching staff .
I think I saw a ghost..
No was just sawamura, geez I'm gonna have to get used to you being that o.O
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On December 21 2011 18:09 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky. 2 gate core would have allowed jaehoon to make dragoons to deal with the cannons ><
he didn't know cannons were coming. he expected 2gate which is much more normal even as cheese goes
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On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky.
Hard to call something that lost in under 5min 'not risky'
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On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky.
no, he should have scouted with the pylon probe, its quite a difference. u go u see nothing u know its cheese, jaehoon got greedy at scouting with the gate probe in a 1v1 map and lost for that.
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On December 21 2011 18:11 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 18:08 o[twist] wrote:On December 21 2011 18:07 KenNage wrote:On December 21 2011 18:05 Kipsate wrote:On December 21 2011 18:00 ShadeR wrote:On December 21 2011 17:57 Hyde wrote:On December 21 2011 17:54 iSometric wrote:
Was jh screwed no matter what? I would think so, cannons within mineral range, as well as shield battery, the zealots wouldn't be able to take out the cannons and the zealots brave had. He pulled the probes but he gave up, he's lose too much defending I think I think jaehoon should have been more decisive in his defense. How often have we seen Jaedong pull an insane number of drones to D and then proceed to hold easily. This isnt ZvZ, its PvP, Brave had cannons already up, one of them on the high ground, which allowed him build cannons safely. There is no way you can defend that. he should have had scouted with the pylon probe, i mean come on pvp on a one on one map? you can't scout everywhere at the same time. jaehoon did the most logical scout, which was straight to his opponent's base, and when that probe was denied he figured something was up and went to 2gate with shield. very logical play, not even risky. Hard to call something that lost in under 5min 'not risky'
i really don't know what you're talking about. brave could have done any cheese anywhere. jaehoon obviously didn't anticipate that specific cheese. nobody else has done it on that map before. has anybody else even checked for it on that map before? i don't think so, but i could be wrong.
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EPT
