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[OSL] Ro8 Day 2 - Page 125

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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RinesOnRx
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada74 Posts
August 27 2011 23:49 GMT
#2481
I think Flash needs to find a balance in PvT. Most of his games consist of him playing safe and going into a late macro game. I think this results in Flash losing in BO more often due to his opponents taking advantage of this. Granted, Flash is a beast and is very capable of overcoming disadvantages in late games, but I'm skeptical that he should be allowing toss to get ~30 gateways and nexuses in two starting positions without any interruption.
Count9
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China10928 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 00:01:21
August 28 2011 00:00 GMT
#2482
Jangbi just needs to cheese his way past the next zerg and get to fantasy, then he can win. On the other hand, fantasy might finally win that gold. Doesn't matter since they're both very good at the matchup, it should be sick games.
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
August 28 2011 00:06 GMT
#2483
On August 28 2011 09:00 Count9 wrote:
Jangbi just needs to cheese his way past the next zerg and get to fantasy, then he can win. On the other hand, fantasy might finally win that gold. Doesn't matter since they're both very good at the matchup, it should be sick games.

what do you mean "finally"? you know fantasy already won his gold in last osl and is the current titleholder? oO
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
August 28 2011 00:11 GMT
#2484
On August 28 2011 08:49 RinesOnRx wrote:
I think Flash needs to find a balance in PvT. Most of his games consist of him playing safe and going into a late macro game. I think this results in Flash losing in BO more often due to his opponents taking advantage of this. Granted, Flash is a beast and is very capable of overcoming disadvantages in late games, but I'm skeptical that he should be allowing toss to get ~30 gateways and nexuses in two starting positions without any interruption.


Nope, its not because Flash played too passive its that JangBi played superb mind games in game 2. He was showing the robo to flash tricking Flash that an aggression is coming but then faked it into going expo mode and when Flash realized it, it was already too late. Kinda like how Effort fooled Flash into thinking that 2 Hatch Lurks are on the way but he hid an expo and went into hive.

Third game is yet another fake by the little Protoss that coould by killing the ebay there bringing an Probe making Flash think that he is planning to go for a third base (hey why would you bring a probe when u already have a zealot there?) and the probe added pylons for any Vulture detecting the fake. And then JangBi went into aggressive mode with added more gateways and bulldogged. What I find it amazing is that Flash was fooled SOO bad thinking that 3 base is so bad that he decided to expand himself into a third base which is really greedy vs 2 Base protoss (lol only oov was that greedy back then trying to outexpand everyone and outmacro).

It wasn't that Flash played any bad, I can barely see any micro mistake from Flash and his macro were on top of his game with that quick 200/200 push coming straight at JangBi and JangBi had great tank break with the usage of shuttle/zealots and the ability of Thor.

The thing that amazed me is how calm JangBi played during the game. It is like that he knew that he was fated to be the victor here. And lets face it, Flash did everything he could (yes I am talking about his OCD behaviors such as ruler, the pocari drink, the sleeper, the twitches lol) but yet JangBi was like "meh, I am not impressed."
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
August 28 2011 00:28 GMT
#2485
flash didnt make any apparent mistakes, but not harassing jangbi in game 2 was quite a big strategical mistake - although it might be attributed to his wrist not allowing him to go for a very apm- and multitasking-intensive harassment style. we'll probably never know. but what we know for sure is that jangbi's preparation and execution were top notch. actually, i see him as the favourite against soo. remember that ace match in the proleague playoffs 2 years ago where he was sent out as the ace player against calm.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/19728_Calm_vs_JangBi/vod


jangbi has always been a player that could elevate his play by preparation and come up with quite ingenious and sophisticated builds.
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
August 28 2011 00:37 GMT
#2486
On August 28 2011 09:28 Black Gun wrote:
flash didnt make any apparent mistakes, but not harassing jangbi in game 2 was quite a big strategical mistake - although it might be attributed to his wrist not allowing him to go for a very apm- and multitasking-intensive harassment style. we'll probably never know. but what we know for sure is that jangbi's preparation and execution were top notch. actually, i see him as the favourite against soo. remember that ace match in the proleague playoffs 2 years ago where he was sent out as the ace player against calm.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/19728_Calm_vs_JangBi/vod


jangbi has always been a player that could elevate his play by preparation and come up with quite ingenious and sophisticated builds.


As I said, JangBi fooled JB long enough to get 4 bases up while Flash is only saturating his third. You can't blame Flash for ANYTHING. Its JangBi's intelligence that you should marvel.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
August 28 2011 01:08 GMT
#2487
On August 28 2011 09:37 Xiphos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2011 09:28 Black Gun wrote:
flash didnt make any apparent mistakes, but not harassing jangbi in game 2 was quite a big strategical mistake - although it might be attributed to his wrist not allowing him to go for a very apm- and multitasking-intensive harassment style. we'll probably never know. but what we know for sure is that jangbi's preparation and execution were top notch. actually, i see him as the favourite against soo. remember that ace match in the proleague playoffs 2 years ago where he was sent out as the ace player against calm.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/19728_Calm_vs_JangBi/vod


jangbi has always been a player that could elevate his play by preparation and come up with quite ingenious and sophisticated builds.


As I said, JangBi fooled Flash long enough to get 4 bases up while Flash is only saturating his third. You can't blame Flash for ANYTHING. Its JangBi's intelligence that you should marvel.

2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 04:23:15
August 28 2011 03:43 GMT
#2488
It was brilliant mind-games by JangBi. Very similar to how Eff0rt often dismantled Flash in OSL and PL.

Wall of text
+ Show Spoiler +
Flash is a textbook reactive player, players will try and finish him by switching to carriers or doing proxy/all-ins, and Flash just scans/defends them and wins.

The best way to beat Flash has always been to make him think you are doing something and make him react in a predictable way. The only time Flash has really "lost" was in this way.

The reason players don't do this is because nobody else has the kind of awareness Flash has, you can do a fake, but you can't reliably expect him to react because hes not always going to see it. Flash is the only player who you can reliably count on to see and react to everything you do, which is why hes such a brilliant player.

The other reason is that it requires you to use an execution that is not tailored to your build order. Korean players are so used to having this linear progression, where everything you do sets you up very well for what you will have later.

The reason Flash wins is he is a level above the korean style of have the best build order, execute it perfectly. Flash is now at the level of, see what they have, develop the best counter for it, execute it perfectly.

It doesn't make sense to have a build-order which has nothing to do with your execution. Everytime someone else tries to counter Flash they do it in the wrong way, develop a counter to Flash's build, Flash will just react to that and counter yours and win, because Flash since his inception was the best at making counters and has a higher level of thinking. It feels like every game is just Flash going "oh you I see you are doing this build? I will just counter that". And players just fall for it every time.

Just like to a lot of tight players, it doesn't make sense to all-in with 7-3 offsuit, but that's exactly what is required when playing against a textbook tight player like Flash. Unpredictability and a level of thinking higher than Flash's.

When playing Flash compared to other players its almost like playing Poker. Most korean players are at level 1, What do I have? How can I improve on what I have?. Flash is at level 2 thinking, What do I have? What does he have? Counter what he has. When Flash loses really badly, its often because of level 3 thinking, What do I have? What does he have? What does he think I have? Counter the counter to what he thinks I have.

It is possibly why Protoss was most popular in the West where higher-level thinking was more prevalent. Which makes me really sad NonY ended up leaving estro. He would be the only player to use higher-level thinking in an environment where that would be extremely advantageous.

Eg.
Effort fakes 2 hatch lurker all in, macros on 3 bases and destroys Flash with ultra/defiler.

Bisu double expands while cutting probes and investing all money into an army, Flash does a 2 base timing attack siege-ing the main attack-route thinking that's where Bisu is going to attack. Knowing this was going to happen already, Bisu instead uses superior army control to funnel his entire army down a tiny ramp where Flash had the smallest defenses. Bisu also had a massive army because he wasn't investing in economy at all when he double expanded.

Not many other examples because it doesn't happen too often, but these are the times when Flash not only lost, it was barely even a contest.

Jangbi almost lost game 2, Flash would have won, if Jangbi had not built half his gateways at his 4th. Jangbi had controlled the game to a point where he knew Flash would macro to 200/200 before he would attack, Flash sieged up Jangbi's natural thinking that that would block any reinforcements making it impossible to make a come-back. Unfortunately for Flash, Jangbi just re-macroed at another base and attacked from behind.

Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
August 28 2011 04:49 GMT
#2489
The OSL just got a lot more interesting
Brood War loyalist
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-28 06:04:44
August 28 2011 06:03 GMT
#2490
I don't know why Flash fans are complaining about his style. Flash plays the winningest style of all players int the entire game. Perhaps entire history. His style is what makes him 70+% in all MUs while more sexy Fantasy play goes into a slump every other month.

Flash's builds has won him game after game after game. Even though Jangbi had a "technically won" game when Flash pushed, and would've crushed any other terran in the same spot, Flash still made the results in doubt for a few more minute despite...

1. Jangbi had an incredible arc while engaging to minimized splash.
2. Jangbi attacked when Flash was not seiging.
3. There was barely any mines.
4. Arbiter froze some backline tanks
5. Lots of storms came out before the tanks could snipe templars

It was textbook perfect push-break by Jangbi. One that usually doesn't get done. Most of the time, the protoss engage in less optimal manner. If Flash had won that 1st engagement in a more decisive fashion, Jangbi's natural and 3rd would've both been lost. And Flash would've achieved equality or even perhaps a winning edge. Jangbi's incredible execution allowed him to destroy enough of Flash's stuff to make his econ advantage show. But you almost never see that type of execution. Most protosses just engage and die.

When I first watched the game, I thought Flash should've harassed. But that's only because the map is incredibly suitable for harass. Instead he let it play out like any macro game you can see on any 3-player map. He might've failed to take advantage of the unique properties of pathfinder, but his overall "style" is still the best around.
Meh
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
August 28 2011 11:50 GMT
#2491
On August 28 2011 15:03 baubo wrote:
I don't know why Flash fans are complaining about his style. Flash plays the winningest style of all players int the entire game. Perhaps entire history. His style is what makes him 70+% in all MUs while more sexy Fantasy play goes into a slump every other month.

Flash's builds has won him game after game after game. Even though Jangbi had a "technically won" game when Flash pushed, and would've crushed any other terran in the same spot, Flash still made the results in doubt for a few more minute despite...

1. Jangbi had an incredible arc while engaging to minimized splash.
2. Jangbi attacked when Flash was not seiging.
3. There was barely any mines.
4. Arbiter froze some backline tanks
5. Lots of storms came out before the tanks could snipe templars

It was textbook perfect push-break by Jangbi. One that usually doesn't get done. Most of the time, the protoss engage in less optimal manner. If Flash had won that 1st engagement in a more decisive fashion, Jangbi's natural and 3rd would've both been lost. And Flash would've achieved equality or even perhaps a winning edge. Jangbi's incredible execution allowed him to destroy enough of Flash's stuff to make his econ advantage show. But you almost never see that type of execution. Most protosses just engage and die.

When I first watched the game, I thought Flash should've harassed. But that's only because the map is incredibly suitable for harass. Instead he let it play out like any macro game you can see on any 3-player map. He might've failed to take advantage of the unique properties of pathfinder, but his overall "style" is still the best around.

i wholeheartedly agree. there's a reason why jangbi has the highest pvt elo peak of all times....
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
oldgregg
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand1176 Posts
August 28 2011 12:23 GMT
#2492
On August 28 2011 12:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:
It was brilliant mind-games by JangBi. Very similar to how Eff0rt often dismantled Flash in OSL and PL.

Wall of text
+ Show Spoiler +
Flash is a textbook reactive player, players will try and finish him by switching to carriers or doing proxy/all-ins, and Flash just scans/defends them and wins.

The best way to beat Flash has always been to make him think you are doing something and make him react in a predictable way. The only time Flash has really "lost" was in this way.

The reason players don't do this is because nobody else has the kind of awareness Flash has, you can do a fake, but you can't reliably expect him to react because hes not always going to see it. Flash is the only player who you can reliably count on to see and react to everything you do, which is why hes such a brilliant player.

The other reason is that it requires you to use an execution that is not tailored to your build order. Korean players are so used to having this linear progression, where everything you do sets you up very well for what you will have later.

The reason Flash wins is he is a level above the korean style of have the best build order, execute it perfectly. Flash is now at the level of, see what they have, develop the best counter for it, execute it perfectly.

It doesn't make sense to have a build-order which has nothing to do with your execution. Everytime someone else tries to counter Flash they do it in the wrong way, develop a counter to Flash's build, Flash will just react to that and counter yours and win, because Flash since his inception was the best at making counters and has a higher level of thinking. It feels like every game is just Flash going "oh you I see you are doing this build? I will just counter that". And players just fall for it every time.

Just like to a lot of tight players, it doesn't make sense to all-in with 7-3 offsuit, but that's exactly what is required when playing against a textbook tight player like Flash. Unpredictability and a level of thinking higher than Flash's.

When playing Flash compared to other players its almost like playing Poker. Most korean players are at level 1, What do I have? How can I improve on what I have?. Flash is at level 2 thinking, What do I have? What does he have? Counter what he has. When Flash loses really badly, its often because of level 3 thinking, What do I have? What does he have? What does he think I have? Counter the counter to what he thinks I have.

It is possibly why Protoss was most popular in the West where higher-level thinking was more prevalent. Which makes me really sad NonY ended up leaving estro. He would be the only player to use higher-level thinking in an environment where that would be extremely advantageous.

Eg.
Effort fakes 2 hatch lurker all in, macros on 3 bases and destroys Flash with ultra/defiler.

Bisu double expands while cutting probes and investing all money into an army, Flash does a 2 base timing attack siege-ing the main attack-route thinking that's where Bisu is going to attack. Knowing this was going to happen already, Bisu instead uses superior army control to funnel his entire army down a tiny ramp where Flash had the smallest defenses. Bisu also had a massive army because he wasn't investing in economy at all when he double expanded.

Not many other examples because it doesn't happen too often, but these are the times when Flash not only lost, it was barely even a contest.

Jangbi almost lost game 2, Flash would have won, if Jangbi had not built half his gateways at his 4th. Jangbi had controlled the game to a point where he knew Flash would macro to 200/200 before he would attack, Flash sieged up Jangbi's natural thinking that that would block any reinforcements making it impossible to make a come-back. Unfortunately for Flash, Jangbi just re-macroed at another base and attacked from behind.



i enjoyed reading your wall of text.
Calculatedly addicted to Substance D for profit by drug terrorists
CruelZeratul
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany4588 Posts
August 28 2011 13:43 GMT
#2493
What was the pause in game 3 JangBi vs Flash about?
_Quasar_
Profile Joined October 2010
Russian Federation4405 Posts
August 28 2011 13:59 GMT
#2494
sluggaslamoo, yeah great wall of text! Good analytic posts are the best ^_^
For the Swarm!!! Jaedong & Neo_G.Soulkey fan.
CROrens
Profile Joined May 2007
Croatia1005 Posts
August 28 2011 14:03 GMT
#2495
On August 26 2011 21:33 pred470r wrote:
Whatever it's time to see Flash destroy Jangbi so he can go and kill this Soo noob in the ro4.



HAHA, in your face
There is no problem that cannot be solved by the use of high explosives. - Anonymous ......||......Hyuk fan! \o/
Ryo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
8787 Posts
August 28 2011 14:20 GMT
#2496
On August 28 2011 22:43 CruelZeratul wrote:
What was the pause in game 3 JangBi vs Flash about?

Minor problem with Jangbi's monitor.
영원히 엠비씨게임 히어로 팬.
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
August 28 2011 14:54 GMT
#2497
A lost is a lost I wont complain .... ><.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
August 28 2011 16:59 GMT
#2498
Groupd D is one of the BEST MOMENTS I HAVE FELT IN A WHILE
▲ ▲ ▲
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
August 28 2011 17:43 GMT
#2499
Yay for JangBi!

Too bad about Kespa though. Killer deserved a real series. Instead, he lost 1-1.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
Azriel
Profile Joined December 2010
Mexico462 Posts
August 28 2011 17:51 GMT
#2500
Wow JangBi. I don't believe this!
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