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On August 30 2011 00:39 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 00:36 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2011 00:35 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 29 2011 03:41 pvzvt wrote:years of picking underdogs i like finally payed off yeah !!! i picked janby in the liquid bet  Fans like you are the people that inspires underdogs. Fans like him are the people that inspires Cinderella stories! Don't be an ass with sarcastic remarks. I guess Jangbi beating flash 2-0 must have been a Cinderella story to you, if that's what your implying. I stated my comment because the guy didn't just "hop on the bandwagon" like a lot of people on TL do whenever somebody proves an upset.
Are you implying that I do? Dude, I have stuck side by side with Stork on his slump. I have followed him since DAY ONE of watching his game vs GGplay. And no I wasn't being sarcastic jackass, you don't even know me!
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On August 30 2011 00:54 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 00:39 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 30 2011 00:36 Xiphos wrote:On August 30 2011 00:35 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 29 2011 03:41 pvzvt wrote:years of picking underdogs i like finally payed off yeah !!! i picked janby in the liquid bet Fans like you are the people that inspires underdogs. Fans like him are the people that inspires Cinderella stories! Don't be an ass with sarcastic remarks. I guess Jangbi beating flash 2-0 must have been a Cinderella story to you, if that's what your implying. I stated my comment because the guy didn't just "hop on the bandwagon" like a lot of people on TL do whenever somebody proves an upset. Are you implying that I do? Dude, I have stuck side by side with Stork on his slump. I have followed him since DAY ONE of watching his game vs GGplay. And no I wasn't being sarcastic jackass, you don't even know me!
loooooool ok man. Your in the category of the fans that inspire underdogs then. That's a really good thing we need more people like you two
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Wow Jangbi, you're my man!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50712 Posts
I swear to god Jangbi kicks SoO's ass,and win the finals against Hydra/Fantasy.
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On August 30 2011 02:34 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I swear to god Jangbi kicks SoO's ass,and win the finals against Hydra/Fantasy.
I would rather it be Fantasy because Jangbi has to avenge Stork for the humiliating 0-3 Fantasy slapped him with. However, PvZ is really exciting...So, either way should have a nice outcome.
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On August 30 2011 02:58 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 02:34 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I swear to god Jangbi kicks SoO's ass,and win the finals against Hydra/Fantasy. I would rather it be Fantasy because Jangbi has to avenge Stork for the humiliating 0-3 Fantasy slapped him with. However, PvZ is really exciting...So, either way should have a nice outcome.
Fantasy TvP is even more exciting.
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On August 30 2011 00:39 infinity2k9 wrote:
PL where he's on the deepest team and can get sent out on his favoured matchup on whatever map is best for him.
Actually CJ is the deepest team. You're also criticizing him for something out of his control.
The supposed second best player is not considered good enough to play the best player in the PL finals
You're again criticizing him for something out of his control; you sound irrational.
and rarely gets to play average P players because other teams simply don't send them out against him
How often do other teams send out Zs v Bisu? Even if every team made it a priority to, how is that an indictment on Bisu?
He's obviously a good player. But he hasn't won a BO3 since 2009. It's completely inexcusable.
This is another pet peeve I almost brought up earlier, when people kept posting the "this is the first BoX Flash has lost to a Protoss since..."
Think about it: how many BoXs are there a year? You're dealing with pitifully small sample size in a game where no one (but God Young Ho) wins more than 70% of their games. It's similar to saying something to the effect of, "You know, durrrr hasn't made the final table of the WSOP since his career began; he's obviously no Phil Hellmuth."
On August 29 2011 14:37 tedster wrote:
Bisu is effectively going 20-3 in proleague, and then falling 0-20 in tournaments
Your thesis is non-sensical, highlighted here.
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WOW. Hey dipshits, did you know Bisu had nothing to do with anything here? NAWTHIN
ALL HAIL HUH YUNG MOOOOoooooooooooo. BOW DOWN! The original god's back.
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On August 30 2011 02:58 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 02:34 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I swear to god Jangbi kicks SoO's ass,and win the finals against Hydra/Fantasy. I would rather it be Fantasy because Jangbi has to avenge Stork for the humiliating 0-3 Fantasy slapped him with. However, PvZ is really exciting...So, either way should have a nice outcome.
PvZ has been terribly boring except for bisu vs ch.
Always one sided with one going greedy econ and one punishing him for it.
Fantasy's vs protoss is still ridiculously good nearing Flash level. TvP with the best PvT of all time and second best TvP of all time sounds a little more interesting that PvZ right now.
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Fuck it, since Killer is out you better win this JangBi!
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On August 30 2011 12:18 KamMoye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 00:39 infinity2k9 wrote:
PL where he's on the deepest team and can get sent out on his favoured matchup on whatever map is best for him. Actually CJ is the deepest team. You're also criticizing him for something out of his control. Show nested quote +The supposed second best player is not considered good enough to play the best player in the PL finals You're again criticizing him for something out of his control; you sound irrational. Show nested quote +and rarely gets to play average P players because other teams simply don't send them out against him How often do other teams send out Zs v Bisu? Even if every team made it a priority to, how is that an indictment on Bisu? Show nested quote +He's obviously a good player. But he hasn't won a BO3 since 2009. It's completely inexcusable. This is another pet peeve I almost brought up earlier, when people kept posting the "this is the first BoX Flash has lost to a Protoss since..." Think about it: how many BoXs are there a year? You're dealing with pitifully small sample size in a game where no one (but God Young Ho) wins more than 70% of their games. It's similar to saying something to the effect of, "You know, durrrr hasn't made the final table of the WSOP since his career began; he's obviously no Phil Hellmuth."
The first statements are not meant as criticisms, only losing the BO3's is criticism of him - no excuses there, he's done more poorly than he should. Saying he's the second best player is a big claim.. if his coaches don't believe he can put up as good of a fight as very low ranked BeSt can, then that is an issue worth noting.
Teams will send out Z's still because ZvP favours the Z slightly and it's also a lot of Z players best and most comfortable matchup, but they won't be necessarily trying to play Bisu.. the SKT1 coaches will definitely be trying to aim for a PvZ though and they are successful often at picking the right maps to make it happen. Meanwhile Jaedong is more predictable in what map he'll be sent out on, and teams often try to get ZvZ against him.. i only even bring Jaedong up because it's notable because of how little ZvP he gets to play, i imagine on SKT1 he'd have different stats.
He's played enough BO3's to judge him on it.... the second best player can't have a record like that. Even if he hadn't played that many, going out in group stages constantly is even worse. Just at a glance though he's lost BO3's vs Flash, Sea, Kal, Stork, Shine x2, go.go and the rest of the time didn't get to the RO16. He's picked groups solely for his best matchup and still gone out. Because of this exceptionally bad record (for his skill) i don't think he is second best. Fantasy on the same team manages better in the same practice situation...
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Wow. How did Flash lose???
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On August 30 2011 17:37 infinity2k9 wrote:
The first statements are not meant as criticisms, only losing the BO3's is criticism of him - no excuses there, he's done more poorly than he should.
He has five gold medals by TL's count.
Saying he's the second best player is a big claim..
Who are you taking over Bisu in a Bo3/5? Fantasy?
Actually, I'd love to see that.
if his coaches don't believe he can put up as good of a fight as very low ranked BeSt can, then that is an issue worth noting.
By that logic let's make a case BeSt is better than Fantasy.
Teams will send out Z's still because ZvP favours the Z slightly and it's also a lot of Z players best and most comfortable matchup, but they won't be necessarily trying to play Bisu.. the SKT1 coaches will definitely be trying to aim for a PvZ though and they are successful often at picking the right maps to make it happen. Meanwhile Jaedong is more predictable in what map he'll be sent out on, and teams often try to get ZvZ against him.. i only even bring Jaedong up because it's notable because of how little ZvP he gets to play, i imagine on SKT1 he'd have different stats.
I'd be more inclined to believe you if you backed this up with facts.
Nevermind that ZvZ is Jaedong's best matchup. It's Jaedong's fault for hovering around a 50% ZvZ winrate the past year. Let me sum up your point: you claim teams counterpick Bisu vZ, which happens to be his best matchup. Bisu stomps them. Teams counterpick Jaedong vZ, which happens to be Jaedong's best matchup.
Jaedong, however (and this is not your point but mine), hasn't been nearly as automatic in ZvZ as Bisu has in PvZ. Somehow this is Bisu's fault.
The facts supporting Bisu are obvious. Since October 1, 2010, here are the stats:
Bisu: 78 wins, 23 losses (77.23%)
Flash: 82 wins, 29 losses (73.87%)
Jaedong: 72 wins, 37 losses (66.06%)
Fantasy: 65 wins, 39 losses (62.50%)
Zero: 65 wins, 45 losses (59.09%)
Light: 45 wins, 31 losses (59.21%)
Stork: 63 wins, 45 losses (58.33%)
Those are the top six players in ELO + Stork for good measure. Only Flash has a case: he has a lower winrate but has played 10 more games.
Everyone else is simply outclassed.
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Assuming BO3 i'd take Fantasy for a start, Jaedong and ZerO as well. Probably even Stork if he actually practices. Even Hydra/Kal/Stats i'd possibly give equal chance. His series play is weak, there's nothing to suggest otherwise. You can bring up Proleague stats but we've all seen him play in a series and all of these guys could beat him and tbh it wouldn't even be a surprise or upset anymore. In a real situation even guys like Horang2 or Hiya, maybe BaBy, would be in with a shout although i would not bet on it; If you push it up to BO5 it would be a harder call but i'd still stick with the other choices.
I liquibetted Shine over him last time they played BO3, probably so did loads of people, doesn't mean i think Shine is a better player. It felt inevitable, and he won again.
And yeah SKT1 picked BeSt over Fantasy as well (personally i would have taken a well prepared Fantasy over any P though), but PvT was the most obvious matchup to play against Flash and he had recently shown weakness in it rather than TvT his best matchup. They chose Kespa rank 44 over rank 2 (at the time i think) to play, in the P favoured matchup...
I don't think teams counterpoint vZ vs Bisu, but PvZ is a favoured matchup in general that's all i meant. But they definitely counterpoint specifically ZvZ vs Jaedong... it's very obvious that they do this; cause it's definitely his worst matchup these days, stats can't hide it. It's a notoriously harsh matchup because of the build order gamble, and it's an area to target which P doesn't have. I only bring JD up cause it shows him being on Oz cause it shows the disadvantage of being the only ace on a weak team. How many prepared snipe builds do we see against Bisu? Just look at Jaedong's vP page, it's not just dumb luck he's only played 3 Protoss this year in PL. They don't even bother risking a PvZ when they can go for a ZvZ gamble.
If you don't see this, what is your explanation for his recent SL record? It's clearly not just unluckiness.
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If we just cut out the last couple of pages of this thread, paste it somewhere, and make a poll about which thread these posts belong to, I'd bet 99.9% would say Power Rank.
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On August 30 2011 23:12 baubo wrote:If we just cut out the last couple of pages of this thread, paste it somewhere, and make a poll about which thread these posts belong to, I'd bet 99.9% would say Power Rank.
I'm not sure they realize they're talking about the wrong protoss in this thread. :<
JangBi :D He looked SO HAPPY after winning, too. And that zealot bombing in the last game, really smooth. Just clipping away at that tank count until Flash couldn't recover, played really smoothly and well.
And game 2, stopping that death push... that was just sick. Those storms and stasises and so many zealots EVERYWHERE.
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On August 30 2011 21:20 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you don't see this, what is your explanation for his recent SL record? It's clearly not just unluckiness.
me thinks you don't understand the term "sample size"
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and flash got jangbanged, didn't see that coming!
god, i love starcraft, gotta watch those games
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You think since mid-2009 is not a big enough sample size? Who else would people go through such mental gymnastics to try and prove they're not simply bad at individual leagues. He chokes. Every. Time. In every matchup.
If you would seriously bet on Bisu over everyone but Flash in a BO3/5 because of his Proleague record you can't be following the game close enough. Just like you wouldn't bet on Fantasy in a PL match based on his series play.
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On August 31 2011 12:27 infinity2k9 wrote:
You think since mid-2009 is not a big enough sample size? Who else would people go through such mental gymnastics to try and prove they're not simply bad at individual leagues. He chokes. Every. Time. In every matchup.
If you would seriously bet on Bisu over everyone but Flash in a BO3/5 because of his Proleague record you can't be following the game close enough. Just like you wouldn't bet on Fantasy in a PL match based on his series play.
Chokes really isn't accurate. I think the problem is that he probably doesn't want the extra load of practice on his shoulders. He probably wants to just maintain a good proleague score. No one that good (way better than sea in many regards) simply fails to qualify for a starleague. People who tried to do everything at once are not so successful (except flash, who got a wrist injury). Jaedong lost avalon semis and fucked up the pl finals. Savior lost horribly to bisu and ended up fixing matches, but went into a slump.
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EPT
