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On August 30 2011 18:41 KamMoye wrote:
The facts supporting Bisu are obvious. Since October 1, 2010, here are the stats:
Bisu: 78 wins, 23 losses (77.23%)
Flash: 82 wins, 29 losses (73.87%)
Jaedong: 72 wins, 37 losses (66.06%)
Fantasy: 65 wins, 39 losses (62.50%)
Zero: 65 wins, 45 losses (59.09%)
Light: 45 wins, 31 losses (59.21%)
Stork: 63 wins, 45 losses (58.33%)
Those are the top six players in ELO + Stork for good measure. Only Flash has a case: he has a lower winrate but has played 10 more games.
Everyone else is simply outclassed.
I don't want to get too far into this, but this is a retarded argument. Maybe if you averaged the Elo of all the players -- and not just their current elo, but their elo at the time of playing the game, could these records even begin to mean anything.
Anyhow, Bisu technically did win a Bo3 recently. In OSL prelims. He just lost another one to Hyvaa. TLPD doesn't count prelims because there's too many of them and it would instantly and massively inflate elo scores ( on top of being a whole lot of hard work and information acquirement to get the dozens of past prelims to put in the system) -- they're still very legitimate games.
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On August 31 2011 13:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I don't want to get too far into this, but this is a retarded argument.
Come on, bro, you're better than that.
It's a year's worth of games. What's so retarded about it?
On August 31 2011 12:27 infinity2k9 wrote:
You think since mid-2009 is not a big enough sample size?
I thought I've been clear, but you keep dodging my point. Allow me to be unequivocal:
Count how many BoX's it's been since mid-2009. (Your timeline, not mine; you cherry-picked it for a reason, right?) Can you do that for me? Over/under: Five. I'll take the under.
I'd do it myself but I'd hate to do your work for you.
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for the first time i actually want jangbi to win....sincerely, not because he beat flash, but i miss a protoss osl champion
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Oh man, so disappointed, i was waiting for the OSL ro4 day 2 thread to pop, and i thought it was this one 
Come on people, we need a new thread to hype the Soo v/s JangBang match
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On August 29 2011 22:20 r7tran wrote:
if bisu isn't the second best player in the world right now, i'd like an argument for anyone who can even remotely be considered for that position.
80% proleague win-rate doesn't lie! KIM TAEK YONG!!! nor does #1 ELO
AWWWWWW YEAHHHHHHHHHH BISU!
Uhh, in Proleague, you're hitting scrubs as often as top tier players. Not even making Ro32 OSL shows just how fast Bisu fails as soon as he starts hitting good people. If Bisu can't make it in individual leagues (and look at the wonderful example by Tedster) he could be considered to have a winrate MUCH lower than 80%.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 30 2011 18:41 KamMoye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 17:37 infinity2k9 wrote:
The first statements are not meant as criticisms, only losing the BO3's is criticism of him - no excuses there, he's done more poorly than he should. He has five gold medals by TL's count. Who are you taking over Bisu in a Bo3/5? Fantasy? Actually, I'd love to see that. Show nested quote +if his coaches don't believe he can put up as good of a fight as very low ranked BeSt can, then that is an issue worth noting. By that logic let's make a case BeSt is better than Fantasy. Show nested quote +Teams will send out Z's still because ZvP favours the Z slightly and it's also a lot of Z players best and most comfortable matchup, but they won't be necessarily trying to play Bisu.. the SKT1 coaches will definitely be trying to aim for a PvZ though and they are successful often at picking the right maps to make it happen. Meanwhile Jaedong is more predictable in what map he'll be sent out on, and teams often try to get ZvZ against him.. i only even bring Jaedong up because it's notable because of how little ZvP he gets to play, i imagine on SKT1 he'd have different stats. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you backed this up with facts. Nevermind that ZvZ is Jaedong's best matchup. It's Jaedong's fault for hovering around a 50% ZvZ winrate the past year. Let me sum up your point: you claim teams counterpick Bisu vZ, which happens to be his best matchup. Bisu stomps them. Teams counterpick Jaedong vZ, which happens to be Jaedong's best matchup. Jaedong, however (and this is not your point but mine), hasn't been nearly as automatic in ZvZ as Bisu has in PvZ. Somehow this is Bisu's fault. The facts supporting Bisu are obvious. Since October 1, 2010, here are the stats: Bisu: 78 wins, 23 losses (77.23%) Flash: 82 wins, 29 losses (73.87%) Jaedong: 72 wins, 37 losses (66.06%) Fantasy: 65 wins, 39 losses (62.50%) Zero: 65 wins, 45 losses (59.09%) Light: 45 wins, 31 losses (59.21%) Stork: 63 wins, 45 losses (58.33%) Those are the top six players in ELO + Stork for good measure. Only Flash has a case: he has a lower winrate but has played 10 more games. Everyone else is simply outclassed.
He has 5 gold medals by TL's count? Doesn't matter if you stop dodging the fact that he lost to low class Zergs before even making it to a starleague.
Who would I take over Bisu in a Bo5? I'd take Fantasy over him. At least fantasy can beat the likes of hyvaa...
By that logic...do you realize that Fantasy plays terran? If the map favors protoss, you'd send out your best PROTOSS not necessarily your best PLAYER. The fact that SKT sent out a BeSt over Fantasy and Bisu proves that they trust BeSt over Bisu. However, it only proves that they also trust BeSt over a Terran on that map. Your logic fails.
The fact is, when you compare Flash and Jaedong to bisu, they have very little "support". Especially JD - until recently, NOBODY on OZ even compares to JD - when they need to send a good Zerg out, they have only JD. If SKT wants a good toss, they can send out BeSt or even Sun if Bisu doesn't want to go; JD has no such leeway. Also, in the ace match: Bisu can study 2 or 3 maps he wants to play on, and if he doesn't like the Ace match map, then BeSt or Fanta can go. With JD or Flash, it's ALWAYS them as the ace - like it or not. Bisu has a TON more opportunity to pick where and when he wants to play. Is this his fault? No. Does it make his proleague record less impressive? It does.
ZvZ is JD's best matchup? And his best matchup is a 50%? And this is "JD's fault"? That is the most retarded logic ever. Lets break this down. Oh, and ZvZ WAS his best matchup, but definitely isn't any longer. If you take his career averages, it seems that he's better at ZvZ, but recently (the last part of this season, at least) he has been sucking.
His last 10 games...
vT: 8-2 (80%)
vP: 6-2 (60%)
vZ: 4-6 (40%)
There is no reasonable way to deny the fact that JD's ZvZ is far behind his other 2 matchups. He lost to HYVAA and MODESTY in the OSL. Of his last 10 games, the only 2 he lost were ZvZ. You're straight up lying.
Tedster already outlined why simply looking at winrates is false.
a) Bisu gets a lot more leeway in his map choice than, say, Flash or Jaedong. He can play more on maps that he is comfortable on, and won't lose as many ace matches simply because he's not the only viable ace - he doesn't have to face tough ace match opponents AS MUCH.
b) Bisu has not go ANYWHERE as far as starleagues go. He's not facing higher level opponents, but Flash, Jaedong, and Fantasy are. Flash played 10 more games than him, many of which were in starleagues against good players, such as Hydra, Stork, Jangbi, etc. Since Bisu doesn't even play these higher level games, he doesn't have the opportunity to lose.
This is like a student taking 6 courses at high school and getting 5 A's and 1 B - his overall GPA is like 3.8 or something. Compare this to a student who only takes 2 courses, and get's 2 A's.
The latter student comes off with a higher GPA even though he worked less, had less things on his plate, and didn't learn much. Bisu is the same as the second student, but Flash is more like the first. Obviously, the first student is by any reasonable definition "better".
Thus these stats are not only deniable but misleading.
Am I saying Bisu's proleague recs are not impressive? Hell no. Are they bad? Still no. Are they as good as they seem? Hell no.
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On September 05 2011 12:05 djbhINDI wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 30 2011 18:41 KamMoye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 17:37 infinity2k9 wrote:
The first statements are not meant as criticisms, only losing the BO3's is criticism of him - no excuses there, he's done more poorly than he should. He has five gold medals by TL's count. Who are you taking over Bisu in a Bo3/5? Fantasy? Actually, I'd love to see that. Show nested quote +if his coaches don't believe he can put up as good of a fight as very low ranked BeSt can, then that is an issue worth noting. By that logic let's make a case BeSt is better than Fantasy. Show nested quote +Teams will send out Z's still because ZvP favours the Z slightly and it's also a lot of Z players best and most comfortable matchup, but they won't be necessarily trying to play Bisu.. the SKT1 coaches will definitely be trying to aim for a PvZ though and they are successful often at picking the right maps to make it happen. Meanwhile Jaedong is more predictable in what map he'll be sent out on, and teams often try to get ZvZ against him.. i only even bring Jaedong up because it's notable because of how little ZvP he gets to play, i imagine on SKT1 he'd have different stats. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you backed this up with facts. Nevermind that ZvZ is Jaedong's best matchup. It's Jaedong's fault for hovering around a 50% ZvZ winrate the past year. Let me sum up your point: you claim teams counterpick Bisu vZ, which happens to be his best matchup. Bisu stomps them. Teams counterpick Jaedong vZ, which happens to be Jaedong's best matchup. Jaedong, however (and this is not your point but mine), hasn't been nearly as automatic in ZvZ as Bisu has in PvZ. Somehow this is Bisu's fault. The facts supporting Bisu are obvious. Since October 1, 2010, here are the stats: Bisu: 78 wins, 23 losses (77.23%) Flash: 82 wins, 29 losses (73.87%) Jaedong: 72 wins, 37 losses (66.06%) Fantasy: 65 wins, 39 losses (62.50%) Zero: 65 wins, 45 losses (59.09%) Light: 45 wins, 31 losses (59.21%) Stork: 63 wins, 45 losses (58.33%) Those are the top six players in ELO + Stork for good measure. Only Flash has a case: he has a lower winrate but has played 10 more games. Everyone else is simply outclassed. He has 5 gold medals by TL's count? Doesn't matter if you stop dodging the fact that he lost to low class Zergs before even making it to a starleague. Who would I take over Bisu in a Bo5? I'd take Fantasy over him. At least fantasy can beat the likes of hyvaa... By that logic...do you realize that Fantasy plays terran? If the map favors protoss, you'd send out your best PROTOSS not necessarily your best PLAYER. The fact that SKT sent out a BeSt over Fantasy and Bisu proves that they trust BeSt over Bisu. However, it only proves that they also trust BeSt over a Terran on that map. Your logic fails. The fact is, when you compare Flash and Jaedong to bisu, they have very little "support". Especially JD - until recently, NOBODY on OZ even compares to JD - when they need to send a good Zerg out, they have only JD. If SKT wants a good toss, they can send out BeSt or even Sun if Bisu doesn't want to go; JD has no such leeway. Also, in the ace match: Bisu can study 2 or 3 maps he wants to play on, and if he doesn't like the Ace match map, then BeSt or Fanta can go. With JD or Flash, it's ALWAYS them as the ace - like it or not. Bisu has a TON more opportunity to pick where and when he wants to play. Is this his fault? No. Does it make his proleague record less impressive? It does. ZvZ is JD's best matchup? And his best matchup is a 50%? And this is "JD's fault"? That is the most retarded logic ever. Lets break this down. Oh, and ZvZ WAS his best matchup, but definitely isn't any longer. If you take his career averages, it seems that he's better at ZvZ, but recently (the last part of this season, at least) he has been sucking. His last 10 games... vT: 8-2 (80%) vP: 6-2 (60%) vZ: 4-6 (40%) There is no reasonable way to deny the fact that JD's ZvZ is far behind his other 2 matchups. He lost to HYVAA and MODESTY in the OSL. Of his last 10 games, the only 2 he lost were ZvZ. You're straight up lying. Tedster already outlined why simply looking at winrates is false. a) Bisu gets a lot more leeway in his map choice than, say, Flash or Jaedong. He can play more on maps that he is comfortable on, and won't lose as many ace matches simply because he's not the only viable ace - he doesn't have to face tough ace match opponents AS MUCH. b) Bisu has not go ANYWHERE as far as starleagues go. He's not facing higher level opponents, but Flash, Jaedong, and Fantasy are. Flash played 10 more games than him, many of which were in starleagues against good players, such as Hydra, Stork, Jangbi, etc. Since Bisu doesn't even play these higher level games, he doesn't have the opportunity to lose. This is like a student taking 6 courses at high school and getting 5 A's and 1 B - his overall GPA is like 3.8 or something. Compare this to a student who only takes 2 courses, and get's 2 A's. The latter student comes off with a higher GPA even though he worked less, had less things on his plate, and didn't learn much. Bisu is the same as the second student, but Flash is more like the first. Obviously, the first student is by any reasonable definition "better". Thus these stats are not only deniable but misleading. Am I saying Bisu's proleague recs are not impressive? Hell no. Are they bad? Still no. Are they as good as they seem? Hell no.
Good post. No 1 is arguing that Bisu > Flash.
Bisu just don't have the fire anymore in his eyes when playing in SLs. I guess that cheese from Flash really did him in lol
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On September 05 2011 12:05 djbhINDI wrote:
By that logic...do you realize that Fantasy plays terran? If the map favors protoss, you'd send out your best PROTOSS not necessarily your best PLAYER. The fact that SKT sent out a BeSt over Fantasy and Bisu proves that they trust BeSt over Bisu. However, it only proves that they also trust BeSt over a Terran on that map. Your logic fails.
The fact is, when you compare Flash and Jaedong to bisu, they have very little "support". Especially JD - until recently, NOBODY on OZ even compares to JD - when they need to send a good Zerg out, they have only JD. If SKT wants a good toss, they can send out BeSt or even Sun if Bisu doesn't want to go; JD has no such leeway. Also, in the ace match: Bisu can study 2 or 3 maps he wants to play on, and if he doesn't like the Ace match map, then BeSt or Fanta can go. With JD or Flash, it's ALWAYS them as the ace - like it or not. Bisu has a TON more opportunity to pick where and when he wants to play. Is this his fault? No. Does it make his proleague record less impressive? It does.
You're speculating and acting as if your speculation is fact. Speaking in a condescending tone doesn't give your POV any more credence.
ZvZ is JD's best matchup?
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/211_Jaedong
And his best matchup is a 50%?
Over the past year. Stop the strawmans.
And this is "JD's fault"?
So it's Bisu's fault when he loses to Hyvaa but it's not Jaedong's fault when he loses? Who's playing these games, bro? It's always the progamer's fault when they lose. Why are you getting so emotional?
That is the most retarded logic ever.
How old are you?
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EPT
