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10387 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:40 ArvickHero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
That's not what I'm saying. He specifically said he's sure Stats would lose to any SKTzerg, and the insinuation is laughable considering he just beat 2 zergs who are much, much better in these very playoffs. You should never be sure that anyone is going to win. Much better in.. ZvT? Neither of those two wins were straight-up victories, Stats got pretty lucky both of those games that Hydra and Zero decided to play greedy/retarded (Zero scouting the 4gateways, only putting one sunken.. cmon). SKTZergs are much less inclined to roll over and die to the first Zealot timing, and it should be well known by now that SKTZergs have some of the best ZvP around and are the favorite against almost any Protoss not named Bisu. Every single one of these things is false besides calling Zero and Hydra greedy -- every zerg has been greedy or cheesey this year, it seems. Atleast, besides the zergs that you (the general you) root for whenever they win. SKTZergs are not the favorite against every non-Bisu protoss -- what you just said is a baffling statement and I couldn't disagree more. And lol at Stats not playing straight up. Neither of those games were far enough deviations to consider them non-standard. Otherwise Bisu has never played standard this entire year.
Really? I mean seriously, the game vs Zero was Stats going 4gate speedlot ALLIN, and getting incredibly lucky that Zero decides to think only 1 sunken is enough to defend his third against the masses of speedlots, even after scouting the gateway count. Other game I suppose was a standard-ish build by Stats, but Hydra thinking that only one Sunken would protect the natural that game was a retardedly greedy mistake that Stats punished, which made the rest of the game a simple formality. Those games didn't prove jack shit about Stats' ability to play a PvZ other than not losing an enormous advantage when he got one.
BTW, gotta love your generalizations about my views. And you may think that SKTZergs aren't favorites against almost any non-Bisu Protoss (my special exceptions would include CJ tosses, possibly Stork and maybe Kal/free on a good day), but statistics say otherwise. Anyone who has been watching ZvPs lately would favor the SKTZergs over Stats, especially with the current metagame trends.
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Ah yes, the dismissal of Stats wins followed by "metagame trends." Anyhow, when you specifically mention protosses not named Bisu, I don't tend to think of, oh, 5 or so more players which is a pretty large amount considering the field. You can favor SKTZergs all you want, I wouldn't expect any different. But I'm no less wrong for thinking Stats himself is prohibitively favored against pretty much any SKT player, and that there's absolutely no sure wins on either side of the rosters.
BTW, Stats on a good day is better than Free has been in years, and much better than Horang2. It's like you haven't been watching him for the past couple of years.
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On August 10 2011 01:21 weiliem wrote:
So the fight between the fan sides goes on.... interesting.... :D
For me, heart says kt but, mind says skt. Rooting for flash to take a game off bisu or best.....
I dont know where is the "fight" you are seeing. All i see is a one-sided massacre, SKT fans crushing KT fans left and right. Sure, a few stalwart defenders of the Evil KT Kingdom (like TTT, or example) are still fighting to their last breath, but they too, realise their Kingdom's inevitable doom alongside their own. :>
Oh, and blind fanboyism is truly unforgivable. Please open your eyes to Bisu's godliness, and his guaranteed triumph over any possible adversary from the KT Empire!!~
@TTT
About Stats's play-offs. I too think that his vZ games werent impressive. I was never impressed with Hydra from the start, cos i cant appreciate ZvZ and i dont think his ZvP was any special (i know statistics doesnt agree with me, but blah i just feel that way). Zero's lack of Sunken in his game vs Stats was seriously.. Basic, he constantly scouted Stats' army count and composition, and somehow still failed to defend against some simple SpeedZeals all in (i dont think we need to argue that it was, at the very least, a very heavily invested attack).
Its 4AM so im having some difficulty remembering his other play-off games, but that game vs Bogus on Icarus was horrible, if memory serves. And im not just shitting on him cos hes a KT dude either.
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I dunno, maybe when he can beat Hyvaa. 
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10387 Posts
So you don't think the current metagame trends don't give Zerg the considerable upper hand in the matchup atm? You'd be a fool to dismiss it, nearly all Protosses are unfavored with the current strategic situation (even Bisu I'm not too confident in, haven't seen him PvZ for a long time). Though if Stats gets a PvZ on NBR, it'll be better for him due to the ability to Gate-FE on that map (and considering that strategic development, Park would be smarter to send Zergs on other maps).
Unlike you, I can recognize that SKTZergs (and SKT players) have their weaknesses, like their general weakness vT and Soo not being too strong against Zerg (and s2 and Hyuk will inexplicably fuck up hard randomly). But it's undeniable that they are all extremely strong at the ZvP matchup. When I think of Stats, I recognize him as a very solid, strong player. If he gets vT or vP, he'll most likely win (yes, even against Bisu IMO). But if he gets vZ, while not totally impossible for him to win, the odds are against Stats.
And free at his height/good days has had much more impressive PvZ than Stats. Horang2, while his last game vs Hoejja and Action were.. ugly, was pretty damn good at PvZ with his own unique style. Stats is solid yes, but I do think those Protosses I've mentioned have impressed me more in the matchup.
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On August 10 2011 05:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:I dunno, maybe when he can beat Hyvaa.
He has a winning record over Hyvaa. Maybe you should just mock him for his failure in OSLs.
edit: Also all these arguments is hyping me up for a Stats vs s2 or Soo match. The last time they meet Stats got hydra busted and humiliated by a ling heavy army.
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On August 10 2011 05:09 ArvickHero wrote:
So you don't think the current metagame trends don't give Zerg the considerable upper hand in the matchup atm? You'd be a fool to dismiss it, nearly all Protosses are unfavored with the current strategic situation (even Bisu I'm not too confident in, haven't seen him PvZ for a long time). Though if Stats gets a PvZ on NBR, it'll be better for him due to the ability to Gate-FE on that map (and considering that strategic development, Park would be smarter to send Zergs on other maps).
Unlike you, I can recognize that SKTZergs (and SKT players) have their weaknesses, like their general weakness vT and Soo not being too strong against Zerg (and s2 and Hyuk will inexplicably fuck up hard randomly). But it's undeniable that they are all extremely strong at the ZvP matchup. When I think of Stats, I recognize him as a very solid, strong player. If he gets vT or vP, he'll most likely win (yes, even against Bisu IMO). But if he gets vZ, while not totally impossible for him to win, the odds are against Stats.
And free at his height/good days has had much more impressive PvZ than Stats. Horang2, while his last game vs Hoejja and Action were.. ugly, was pretty damn good at PvZ with his own unique style. Stats is solid yes, but I do think those Protosses I've mentioned have impressed me more in the matchup.
Wait, unlike me? I was the one who brought up that no one on either team was unbeatable. I just think Stats matches up nicely against most of SKT. I think the Zergs ARE his worst matchup, but on a neutral map he'd be the favorite as far as I'm concerned -- this can obviously change depending on the map (like if they were on La Mancha or something).
Free at his very best beat Jaedong 2-1 then disappeared forever and this was literally way back in 2008 when ZvP was clearly Jaedong's worst matchup (not to take anything away from him, he was one of the like 3 or 4 protosses who could even manage to PvZ for awhile). Ever since Stats emerged he's been one of the best, most consistent PvZers around. Even with his recent slump and the absurd number of losses he's given to Jaedong, he's got a good PvZ record. I figure, given his playoffs wins, he has broken his slump. If he hasn't then he isn't the favorite.
Horang2 is awesome, but is primarily a PvP sniper and not the overall player Stats is. It's like suddenly everyone has tossed away how Stats was one of the absolute best players this season in proleague because he hit a PvZ rut. =\
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10387 Posts
And I didn't state that SKTZergs were unbeatable either, just that they were the favorites against Stats. Every single map in this Finals is Zerg favored in PvZ, except for possibly Alternative and NBR because of Gate-FE (even then.. )
Best, most consistent PvZers around.. with a 52% winrate in the matchup? That's not even close to consistent, nor the best. :\ You discount free too easily, even though he's wildly inconsistent he's shown off great PvZ talent and has pioneered a good number of PvZ concepts (Gate-FE on NBR can be credited to him, for one thing).
And Horang2 has shown this year that he is good in ALL matchups, but just is a class above in PvP (sort of like Bisu w/ PvZ). Nobody with any sort of logical sense is counting out Stats, it's just that he's disfavored when he gets matched up vs a Zerg.
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A fourth of his losses are against Jaedong. =\ I know it's not particularly fair to remove players from someone's record, but he had to go up against godmode ZvP Jaedong an unfair number of times and it really hurt his overall record. Besides Bisu, he's beaten the other top ZvPers more consistently than any other protoss for a good amount of time (effort a couple of times, Zero a whole bunch etc).
Anyhow, Free has been very bad to mediocre in PvZ for way too long. I mean it's like talking about Best's PvP, it's not the six dragons era anymore, Free has been much more about his PvT and PvP for the last couple of years.
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10387 Posts
Having a player's number (like Stats vs Zero) does not necessarily make you a great/consistent player in the matchup. It is, however, very impressive and surprising to see, so that does change the odds I see of Stats vs SKTZerg a bit (SKTZergs still favored in my book though)
Your statement about free would be more truthful if you changed "very bad" to "very inconsistent". On (rather few) good days, he plays brilliant PvZs, and shows a lot of cool tricks and innovations. But other days, he plays like complete trash.. which could be applied the same to his play in general. But my point was more about his good days, not his numerous bad days
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United States9958 Posts
to answer all this talk about Stats vZ stuff, he's good, not amazing and I'll give credit where credit is due (Bisu is godly in PvZ). However, why the hell do you think that Stats is going to play a PvZ??? everyone knows that KT has a special trick up their sleeves to snipe Bisu with Stats. Just saying.
also to arvickhero... dont you mean his numerous good days vs his bad days that are not as numerous?
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On August 10 2011 05:42 ArvickHero wrote:
Having a player's number (like Stats vs Zero) does not necessarily make you a great/consistent player in the matchup. It is, however, very impressive and surprising to see, so that does change the odds I see of Stats vs SKTZerg a bit (SKTZergs still favored in my book though)
Your statement about free would be more truthful if you changed "very bad" to "very inconsistent". On (rather few) good days, he plays brilliant PvZs, and shows a lot of cool tricks and innovations. But other days, he plays like complete trash.. which could be applied the same to his play in general. But my point was more about his good days, not his numerous bad days
When was his last good PvZ? I honestly can't remember it seems like it's been so long. I mean atleast Stats had some amazing games just this season.
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On August 09 2011 16:54 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 12:52 rslee wrote:On August 09 2011 10:10 Doraemon wrote:
wow tossgirl. definitely got that eyelid done Well it's pretty common for a regular korean girl to get it done and basically standard for a celebrity to get it done.. i would say it's as common in china as well, all my cousins have had it done ==
Definitely not common in all of China. I went back for 2 months last winter and there were a bunch of conversations about plastic surgeries (something along the lines of does every U.S. girl have a boob job) and everyone (guys and girls) I've talked to haven't had plastic surgery. They were all undergrad and grad students so I'd think it was the right age.
On topic, wonder if SKT will play Best. He has a good shot of sniping flash, but his other two match ups make him a really risky pick. Pretty much everyone on KT's roster not terran would be favored against him and I highly doubt they'll use more than one terran. (maybe to try and snipe Bisu, but I doubt it)
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10387 Posts
free vs Action on NBR from the playoff series comes into mind, while not a totally amazing game, free introduces the Gate-FE (which pretty much becomes standard on NBR after this game, is also possible to do on FS/LaMancha at the top right/bot left postions) and plays a very solid game. There was also one on EotS I remember being impressed with, but right now I'm freakishly tired and need to take a nap.. I'll get back to you on that I suppose haha
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If the matches go on to ace, I'm fairly certain KT will send out Flash, unless there's something seriously wrong with him that day (wrist, unexpected sickness, etc.). Yes, Stats might make sense, but they'll send out Flash nonetheless. Best can just practice PvT until the cows come home and 1a2a3a Flash in the ace match.
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On August 10 2011 06:16 Cambium wrote:
If the matches go on to ace, I'm fairly certain KT will send out Flash, unless there's something seriously wrong with him that day (wrist, unexpected sickness, etc.). Yes, Stats might make sense, but they'll send out Flash nonetheless. Best can just practice PvT until the cows come home and 1a2a3a Flash in the ace match.
I'm certain that SKT will send out Fantasy against Flash for the ace match. "Fantasy In Finals" is way too much to pass up. He completely wrecked Jaedong two finals ago. Best might try to snipe Flash in the first 6 sets, but Fantasy should appear in the ace match. I doubt Stats will get sent out because Fantasy is just too good at TvP.
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On August 10 2011 06:10 ArvickHero wrote:
free vs Action on NBR from the playoff series comes into mind, while not a totally amazing game, free introduces the Gate-FE (which pretty much becomes standard on NBR after this game, is also possible to do on FS/LaMancha at the top right/bot left postions) and plays a very solid game. There was also one on EotS I remember being impressed with, but right now I'm freakishly tired and need to take a nap.. I'll get back to you on that I suppose haha
That game was almost exclusively Action showing that he might be the very worst midgame player of any a-team player. It was a needed win, but it was far from Free showing his flashes of brilliance.
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Free has really not been good at PvZ since 2008/2009, coming from a Free fan. During his good streak in 2010 he was mostly killing terrans.
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On August 10 2011 07:46 Kyuukyuu wrote:
Free has really not been good at PvZ since 2008/2009, coming from a Free fan. During his good streak in 2010 he was mostly killing terrans.
he did beat zero in a bo3, but i can't remember any mentionable zergs.
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EPT
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