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Ryo
8787 Posts
On August 09 2011 16:46 endy wrote: Ok, here is a pic I took a few days ago, so it's previously unreleased ! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N5D1o.jpg) This STX shirt is nice, the other one with the stripes is really ugly. | ||
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
On August 09 2011 20:32 NicksonReyes wrote: KT wins if Stats meets Bisu and Roo wins his ZvZ game. I want Action vs Fantasy coz anything can happen. Best could still potentionally snipe Flash, but I don't think Flash would let that happen again and he's probably preparing a counter snipe build by now, so I 50% expect cheese and 50% expect something unorthodox that is not considered cheese from Flash. Flash defeating his bane in the PL GF could be the most epic thing ever, especially if he wins against best in the ace match with a cheese  .Flash probably > the entire SKT at this point, he will prepare extensively against Protoss (Best), and in doing so remove Bisu's threat. As we've seen in a not-so-long-ago MSL Group D, a prepared Flash > prepared Bisu by a lot. Stats' PvP is friggin' solid, SKT needs 2 of their 3 key players to dodge him, making it even harder for SKT. Hoejja can definitely hold his own against anyone except Bisu, SKT should try to snipe him this way, or even with Sun. Action is 40/60 against zerg, 60/40 against Best and 50/50 against everyone else. I don't see KT losing this. | ||
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PineappleLumpsToss
New Zealand2434 Posts
On August 09 2011 21:17 shucklesors wrote: Flash probably > the entire SKT at this point, he will prepare extensively against Protoss (Best), and in doing so remove Bisu's threat. As we've seen in a not-so-long-ago MSL Group D, a prepared Flash > prepared Bisu by a lot. Stats' PvP is friggin' solid, SKT needs 2 of their 3 key players to dodge him, making it even harder for SKT. Hoejja can definitely hold his own against anyone except Bisu, SKT should try to snipe him this way, or even with Sun. Action is 40/60 against zerg, 60/40 against Best and 50/50 against everyone else. I don't see KT losing this. Flash > everybody in a BoX atm, but IMO Flash vs BeSt is 50/50 in a one-off. BeSt has won their last 2 PL matches, and 3 of their last 4. Flash is a champion, but those results have to be playing on his mind a little. In a straight-up game I can't see Bisu or Fanta beating Flash, though I trust Coach Park has prepared a strategic option (as an alternative to BeSt). Stats is playing well atm, but I'd still give Bisu a 50/50 against him. Stats would be favoured against BeSt, but I'd be happy to see Fanta v Stats as a SKT fan (which is what you're alluding to ofc). Agree with the Hoejja comment (who would've thought that 3 months ago). Mostly agree with your comments re Action, though Bisu definitely goes in as more than 50/50. Action has pushed Bisu more than most recently, but Bisu found a way to win and I'd expect him to do so again. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On August 09 2011 21:17 shucklesors wrote: Flash probably > the entire SKT at this point, he will prepare extensively against Protoss (Best), and in doing so remove Bisu's threat. As we've seen in a not-so-long-ago MSL Group D, a prepared Flash > prepared Bisu by a lot. Stats' PvP is friggin' solid, SKT needs 2 of their 3 key players to dodge him, making it even harder for SKT. Hoejja can definitely hold his own against anyone except Bisu, SKT should try to snipe him this way, or even with Sun. Action is 40/60 against zerg, 60/40 against Best and 50/50 against everyone else. I don't see KT losing this. Stats has been horrible vs Z recently, and I'm sure he's gonna lose against any of the SKT zergs (hydra break anyone ?) Fantasy is solid in every matchup, you can say anything you want about his TvZ, but he's so clutch, which is why in grand finals / play offs ace games we got Fantasy > JD and Fantasy > Effort. Basically, all SKT has to do is to send a sacrificial lamb against Flash (the former could always try a cheesy build, just like last time when SKT didn't know how to deal with Stork, coach asked soO to 4 pooled him and won) and it should be rather easy to win. SKT 4-1 or 4-2. e : Oh and I don't agree about Hoejja, he only showed impressive ZvP, but is still awful in the two other matchup. His only hope is to be matched against Sun/BeSt. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
i just hope its an epic 4-3, dont care who wins | ||
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jaQi
1121 Posts
On August 09 2011 22:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: Stats just thrashed Zero and Hydra who are unbelievably better than every SKT Zerg, and it's not close. Not buying it. Yea before he was on a 8?-losing streak against Zergs including s2 and soo two times. SKT1 players are in good shape, if they can hold their momentum I think they got good chances to win the finals. But of course KT can crash every team no matter what. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
On August 09 2011 21:17 shucklesors wrote: Flash probably > the entire SKT at this point, he will prepare extensively against Protoss (Best), and in doing so remove Bisu's threat. As we've seen in a not-so-long-ago MSL Group D, a prepared Flash > prepared Bisu by a lot. Stats' PvP is friggin' solid, SKT needs 2 of their 3 key players to dodge him, making it even harder for SKT. Hoejja can definitely hold his own against anyone except Bisu, SKT should try to snipe him this way, or even with Sun. Action is 40/60 against zerg, 60/40 against Best and 50/50 against everyone else. I don't see KT losing this. 1. You say it as if Flash has 100% winrate and can't be touched by anyone on SKT. This is simply ridiculous, considering Bisu beat Flash with a strong BO just a few months ago in a similar situation (WL finals) and Best has had Flash's number all year in SPL. You think that Flash hadn't practiced vs. P for SPL finals? Even Hyuk has beaten Flash before (although that time it was again BO + map, but what's to say that the coaches haven't used all their extra time to prepare snipe builds vs. Flash for every map/player?) 2. I don't see why you are saying that Stats is also some unstoppable PvP force. He is definitely good at the match-up, and has beaten Sun/Bisu/Best(x2) this year. But, both Bisu and Best are or at least were good PvP players. Best just recently started performing again so any of his matches before R4 that were not vs. Flash are him in bad condition, Bisu's PvP HAS been shakier as of late but is still better lifetime W/L than Stats by a decent margin. I would say it's 50/50 vs Best/Bisu and 60/40 vs. Sun (on Plains his PvP was questionable, indicating a lesser understanding of the MU). I do agree that it might be unfavorable for SKT to waste Bisu/Best on Stats, but at the same time Stats is KT's second best player by a mile... So do they really need to 'dodge' him given all this? I think not. 3. Hoejja's 'can hold his own' is still barely 50/50 vs SKT Zergs (which I doubt, btw, but do not have more than speculation to back it up) and Best/Sun, but would probably lose to Fantasy and Bisu. Not really much to bank on if you consider the fact that you are ending this post with 'I don't see KT losing this.' 4. Action has been playing badly for this entire season, period, and I would say that he is unfavored against ALL of SKT line-up, save for Best, whose PvZ is laughable sometimes. I guess Sun too, considering his nerves. That is really the only GOOD chance he has at winning, the rest are unfavorable. Being as impartial as possible, I can imagine it going either way; it all depends on the MUs, maps, build orders, and preparation, just like any other match. KT already lost to SKT in WL finals, a league that many said was designed for KTFlash. I understand the urge to fanboy all over this thread is strong. On August 09 2011 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: You should never be sure that anyone is going to win. ^ This. Props to TTT for a voice of reason in this situation. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
Even if Stats just beat Hydra and ZerO, he won't have any confidence against SKT zergs. For this kind of games, the mindset is at least as important as the raw skill. Stats is a very skilled player, but I don't see him defeating an SKT zerg for the first time since December 2010. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's not what I'm saying. He specifically said he's sure Stats would lose to any SKTzerg, and the insinuation is laughable considering he just beat 2 zergs who are much, much better in these very playoffs. You should never be sure that anyone is going to win. Much better in.. ZvT? Neither of those two wins were straight-up victories, Stats got pretty lucky both of those games that Hydra and Zero decided to play greedy/retarded (Zero scouting the 4gateways, only putting one sunken.. cmon). SKTZergs are much less inclined to roll over and die to the first Zealot timing, and it should be well known by now that SKTZergs have some of the best ZvP around and are the favorite against almost any Protoss not named Bisu. | ||
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:40 ArvickHero wrote: Much better in.. ZvT? Neither of those two wins were straight-up victories, Stats got pretty lucky both of those games that Hydra and Zero decided to play greedy/retarded (Zero scouting the 4gateways, only putting one sunken.. cmon). SKTZergs are much less inclined to roll over and die to the first Zealot timing, and it should be well known by now that SKTZergs have some of the best ZvP around and are the favorite against almost any Protoss not named Bisu. To add to this, practicing with Bisu must make your anti-zeal harass play pretty damn strong. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:40 ArvickHero wrote: Much better in.. ZvT? Neither of those two wins were straight-up victories, Stats got pretty lucky both of those games that Hydra and Zero decided to play greedy/retarded (Zero scouting the 4gateways, only putting one sunken.. cmon). SKTZergs are much less inclined to roll over and die to the first Zealot timing, and it should be well known by now that SKTZergs have some of the best ZvP around and are the favorite against almost any Protoss not named Bisu. Every single one of these things is false besides calling Zero and Hydra greedy -- every zerg has been greedy or cheesey this year, it seems. Atleast, besides the zergs that you (the general you) root for whenever they win. SKTZergs are not the favorite against every non-Bisu protoss -- what you just said is a baffling statement and I couldn't disagree more. And lol at Stats not playing straight up. Neither of those games were far enough deviations to consider them non-standard. Otherwise Bisu has never played standard this entire year. On August 09 2011 23:35 endy wrote: Well Stats is 1-5 against SKT zergs, and all these games were all played in 2011 or late late 2010. Even if Stats just beat Hydra and ZerO, he won't have any confidence against SKT zergs. For this kind of games, the mindset is at least as important as the raw skill. Stats is a very skilled player, but I don't see him defeating an SKT zerg for the first time since December 2010. This is inconceivably presumptuous. Can you read Stats mind? Because your evaluation of his mental state is the only argument you have on why Stats can beat freaking Zero and Hydra, but not soo and s2. Stats is 5-1 vs Zero who is one of the only zergs to beat Bisu this season, do you seriously think he has no capability to ZvP just because he's lost to SKTZergs before? You're acting like they're Jaedong or something. And please, don't construe this as me thinking the SKTZergs are incompetent ZvPers. They clearly aren't. But the complete dismissal of the guy who has been the fourth strongest player in proleague is shocking to me. It'd be like me coming in here and saying Fantasy can't possibly win because he's coming off a long losing streak with only a couple of recent wins. On August 09 2011 23:41 Fortis wrote: To add to this, practicing with Bisu must make your anti-zeal harass play pretty damn strong. And this. When will people learn that having star players on your team does not make your matchups noticeably better? FBH had literally the two best PvTers ever on his team for 2 years and had the worst TvP in the league. Bisu has one of the best TvPers ever and his PvT has always been his achilles heel. This applies to so many cases, it's kind of hard to count. There's no correlation with star players improving respective matchups -- I mean SKTzergs have been bad at everything for 3 years until just this last half of the season. The assumption that having a currently great player improves your matchup with said player has been demonstrably false many times. It actually tends to be the opposite, because they kick your ass in practice so much that you have problems coming up with winning builds. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:34 Fortis wrote: 1. You say it as if Flash has 100% winrate and can't be touched by anyone on SKT. This is simply ridiculous, considering Bisu beat Flash with a strong BO just a few months ago in a similar situation (WL finals) and Best has had Flash's number all year in SPL. You think that Flash hadn't practiced vs. P for SPL finals? Even Hyuk has beaten Flash before (although that time it was again BO + map, but what's to say that the coaches haven't used all their extra time to prepare snipe builds vs. Flash for every map/player?). Don't be so arrogant. 2. I don't see why you are saying that Stats is also some unstoppable PvP force. He is definitely good at the match-up, and has beaten Sun/Bisu/Best(x2) this year. But, both Bisu and Best are or at least were good PvP players. Best just recently started performing again so any of his matches before R4 that were not vs. Flash are him in bad condition, Bisu's PvP HAS been shakier as of late but is still better lifetime W/L than Stats by a decent margin. I would say it's 50/50 vs Best/Bisu and 60/40 vs. Sun (on Plains his PvP was questionable, indicating a lesser understanding of the MU). I do agree that it might be unfavorable for SKT to waste Bisu/Best on Stats, but at the same time Stats is KT's second best player by a mile... So do they really need to 'dodge' him given all this? I think not. 3. Hoejja's 'can hold his own' is still barely 50/50 vs SKT Zergs (which I doubt, btw, but do not have more than speculation to back it up) and Best/Sun, but would probably lose to Fantasy and Bisu. Not really much to bank on if you consider the fact that you are ending this post with 'I don't see KT losing this.' 4. Action has been playing badly for this entire season, period, and I would say that he is unfavored against ALL of SKT line-up, save for Best, whose PvZ is laughable sometimes. I guess Sun too, considering his nerves. That is really the only GOOD chance he has at winning, the rest are unfavorable. I think that it is literally blind fanboyism at best to say "I don't see KT losing this." Being as impartial as possible, I can imagine it going either way; it all depends on the MUs, maps, build orders, and preparation, just like any other match. KT already lost to SKT in WL finals, a league that many said was designed for KTFlash, so how can you make such myopic statements? I understand the urge to fanboy all over this thread is strong, but initiating a circle-jerk with other KT fans about how your win is a certainty merely paints you all in a bad light. ^ This. Coming from one of the most vocal and biased KT fans as well. Props to TTT for a voice of reason in this situation. I don't know what prick your butt and if you are coming into these stating that fanboys can't predict whatever they want for the sake of facts and reality than probably you should go some where else after all the skt's guys were predicting 4-0 outright victory and some of us kt fan's aren't allowed to predict our own results ? Seriously do you have to go the point of calling people names ? like arrogant and stuff ? I don't know about you but you are not really a nice person for doing this . We love our team we of course would want to predict good results for our team and it's okay for you to rebut his logic but you don't have to go around calling " circle of F*king jerks " nonetheless tried to get this personal . | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: And this. When will people learn that having star players on your team does not make your matchups noticeably better? FBH had literally the two best PvTers ever on his team for 2 years and had the worst TvP in the league. Bisu has one of the best TvPers ever and his PvT has always been his achilles heel. This applies to so many cases, it's kind of hard to count. There's no correlation with star players improving respective matchups -- I mean SKTzergs have been bad at everything for 3 years until just this last half of the season. The assumption that having a currently great player improves your matchup with said player has been demonstrably false many times. It actually tends to be the opposite, because they kick your ass in practice so much that you have problems coming up with winning builds. I have no dog in this fight i just wanted to echo TTT's last paragraph. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
TTT And this. When will people learn that having star players on your team does not make your matchups noticeably better. FBH had literally the two best PvTers ever on his team for 2 years and had the worst TvP in the league. Bisu has one of the best TvPers ever and his PvT has always been his achilles heel. Where does ANY of Jaedong's matches come from? In his debut he had terrible ZvP despite having Anytime on his team -- and clearly he had no competent zergs to create his JvZ. The assumption that having a currently great player improves your matchup with said player is nonsense. It actually tends to be the opposite, because they kick your ass in practice so much that you have problems coming up with winning builds. I certainly agree with your presented examples, and KT players are another testament to this (from Nal_ra's Old Boy - "Playing against Flash makes you forget how to win,"). However, I was not trying to attest to their understanding of their entire match-up. That would be foolish, because playing vs. a select amount of players, regardless of how good they are, would only be presenting a small fraction of the styles that are available in each MU. Bisu playing PvT with Fantasy all the time would most likely not prepare him well for PvT against Flash, which is why he practices with relatively weaker players for a better representation of general TvP play. All this considered, I would say that one of the current PvZ trends (the zealot aggression with earlier speed, +1, and +1 air with high sair count, in exchange for later HT/storm) is a trend that was started by Bisu, who remains the flagship for this play style. I think that this would undoubtedly make SKT Zergs better against this specific opening, not saying anything about their mid-lategame play or their play vs. other strategies such as Horang2's mass gateway unit builds (which Bisu has used recently as well). Rarely, if ever (?), has anyone won solely with those first 4-6 zealots, but having the player that is best at this strategy should make you better prepared against this opening, I don't see any logical fallacy there. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Flash beat Jaedong in three consecutive finals by practicing with Hoejja. It just doesn't make sense, but it's how progaming tends to work. If Bisu were a coach, it might be different, though. edit-- Hmm, are you GG.NoRe? I say this because I've argued with him many times and your posting reminds me of his -- mostly well presented, but a little condescending. I could be very wrong and you're just a well meaning new guy though.  | ||
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cybertopo
Spain525 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Nope, because the best player will beat you constantly. It's hard to learn when you always lose, and players practice almost implicitly to try to win. That was literally FBH's problem for years, and when he suddenly leaves Khan and goes to Ace his TvP takes a dramatic upswing. Good players with good matchups makes good builds and execute them well almost entirely devoid of who they're playing with. Flash beat Jaedong in three consecutive finals by practicing with Hoejja. It just doesn't make sense, but it's how progaming tends to work. If Bisu were a coach, it might be different, though. edit-- Hmm, are you GG.NoRe? I say this because I've argued with him many times and your posting reminds me of his -- mostly well presented, but a little condescending. I could be very wrong and you're just a well meaning new guy though. LOL, I don't think Flash practiced only with Hoejja | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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