EPT[SPL] Grand Finals: SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 62
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:35 cybertopo wrote: LOL, I don't think Flash practiced only with Hoejja Semantics. Draining Hoejja of all star sense and rendering him a paewang is the same thing and the secret to Flash's success XD. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Nope, because the best player will beat you constantly. It's hard to learn when you always lose, and players practice almost implicitly to try to win. That was literally FBH's problem for years, and when he suddenly leaves Khan and goes to Ace his TvP takes a dramatic upswing. Good players with good matchups makes good builds and execute them well almost entirely devoid of who they're playing with. Flash beat Jaedong in three consecutive finals by practicing with Hoejja. It just doesn't make sense, but it's how progaming tends to work. If Bisu were a coach, it might be different, though. edit-- Hmm, are you GG.NoRe? I say this because I've argued with him many times and your posting reminds me of his -- mostly well presented, but a little condescending. I could be very wrong and you're just a well meaning new guy though.  I don't see how this disproves my statement that their defense against a particular opening would be more solid when played vs. a weaker player. I once again reiterate that I was not trying to attest to their lategame or even midgame abilities, or their reactionary abilities to any other build (I frankly have low confidence in all of the above). I merely said that they would be stronger against those early-game zealots. This is of course an interpretation, an opinion, perhaps an uneducated one, but I have so far not seen a solid counter-argument from you to this specific point. I feel like you have addressed other posts by other people well in your responses to me, but that was not the point I was arguing. EDIT: Quality control. | ||
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:47 Fortis wrote: I don't see how this disproves my statement that their defense against a particular opening would be more solid when played vs. a weaker player. I once again reiterate that I was not trying to attest to their lategame or even midgame abilities, or their reactionary abilities to any other build (I frankly have low confidence in all of the above). I merely said that they would be stronger against those early-game zealots. This is of course an interpretation, an opinion, perhaps an uneducated one, but I have so far not seen a solid counter-argument from you to this specific point. I feel like you have addressed other posts by other people well in your responses to me, but that was not the point I was arguing. I'm not GG.NoRe, I'm trying to be well-meaning but I am not a new guy. I don't think I was condescending to you in the slightest, in fact I commended you for your posts, but I agree that my post was a little aggressive when responding to the poster earlier on this page. The reason for that being that their exaggerated claims are aggressive in nature themselves, and also factually unfounded. I do not think there is any better way to describe "I do not see KT losing" than blind fanboyism (it almost begs for this response), and although "circlejerk" is probably the least politically correct term to apply to a congregation of like-minded people feeding off of each other's relatively baseless assertions, it certainly embodies the concept nicely. People have been saying "I don't see KT losing" and "I don't see SKT losing" this entire thread and you jumped all over him for a very tacit post. Anyhow, your argument is that having Bisu on your team to practice means you should be better at defending early zealot attacks, which are Bisu's signature. My problem with this statement is two-fold. One, it assumes Bisu practices interchangeably with all the SKTZergs on whichever map they're going to play a sufficient enough times to get used to most of the reasonable early zealot attacks -- this is a much bigger, broader and more difficult issue, as these attacks are very map dependent and Bisu himself has to practice the maps he's going to play. This is the entire reason teams have the b-teamers who never play. My second issue is that playing with Bisu himself somehow makes you better at defending it, which probably isn't the case -- Bisu is the very best at executing things like this and it's very likely the SKTZergs, assuming Bisu is as great as he is, lose to this constantly. It is very easy to overprepare for these things and have it mess with your build order -- especially with very volatile zerg play. I'm not saying your argument can't be right, I'm just very skeptical. On August 10 2011 00:50 Fortis wrote: I 'insulted' him in the following ways: 1. Saying that he is abrasive. I can find many posts in his history and quote them here but it would make this too personal of a matter. It is a fact. 2. Saying that his English is imperfect. Evidenced in the post that I have quoted, also a fact. It was necessary for me to point this out in order to establish a foundation for my first paragraph, which stated "I attribute your behavior to your imperfect understanding of English" [sic], which most likely led to his heated response to me in the first place. Explaining what a circlejerk is was absolutely necessary to clear his misconception. I appreciate the sarcasm. These things are not mutually exclusive. You most certainly did all of this, you also did it in an insulting, belittling, and absolutely uncalled for manner. That is my case and I'm dropping it here, sorry if you disagree. And no, explaining a circlejerk the way you did is not absolutely necessary. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50692 Posts
Obviously we will see some trash talk among fans and yes some of them will be downright retarded comments,but you gotta live with it,this happens once a year. | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:39 Fortis wrote: This coming from one of the more abrasive people to have posted in this (and other threads), I have learned to attribute some of your attitude to your imperfect English. Not saying mine is perfect either, but this is the case here as well, as I will show you later in this post. If the argument was just as biased and preferential to SKT, I would argue against it as well, using logic as I have up there. "stating that fanboys can't predict whatever they want for the sake of facts and reality" I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... Are you saying that it's okay to predict things that aren't founded on facts or reality? Of course it is okay to do so, and I am not limiting anyone's ability to do so. Likewise, you should not limit my ability to argue against said exaggerated claims. "Calling people names" usually refers to things like jerk, idiot, bitch, cunt, etc. Calling someone arrogant for saying that Flash would definitely beat anyone on SKT is probably the most acceptable way of putting it, as well as the most correct. This is where your poor English impedes your ability to construct an argument. I suggest you use a dictionary more often, and perhaps spell-check your posts as well. This is not a personal attack even though it's directed to you, it's more of a suggestion to make life easier on you. A "circlejerk" is when a group of men position themselves in a circle and jerk off the person next to them. In other words, when a man grasps the penis of the man next to him, makes up and down motions, in order to please him. This goes on in a circle so that every man is pleasing one other man and it's for the mutual benefit of all. I did not call anyone a "circle of jerks," but the fact remains that KT fans were quoting each other, supporting each other with subjective evidence and opinions, building upon each other's bias. This is about as close to a "circlejerk" as the internet would allow it to be, maybe would have been closer if egos were being stroked as well. TL;DR I will not stop anyone from predicting good results for their teams. That is their right. But hell, it's might right to argue against their claims, especially on a logical ground. Use a dictionary when you are unsure of meanings and please revise your posts, replying to you is difficult due to your weaker grasp of the language. Calling some one arrogant isn't calling names than I don't know what is calling some one with the likes of making some one mad Lets just say for example if i call you a an arrogant person for calling out some one who made a mistake isn't that labeling a some one with the respective meaning and by the waycalling names' doesn't have to be "cunts,bastards,imbecile bullshit and the sort it can have many interpretation and yes you are calling name blindly right now. Edit :trace off. | ||
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:55 TwoToneTerran wrote: People have been saying "I don't see KT losing" and "I don't see SKT losing" this entire thread and you jumped all over him for a very tacit post. Anyhow, your argument is that having Bisu on your team to practice means you should be better at defending early zealot attacks, which are Bisu's signature. My problem with this statement is two-fold. One, it assumes Bisu practices interchangeably with all the SKTZergs on whichever map they're going to play a sufficient enough times to get used to most of the reasonable early zealot attacks -- this is a much bigger, broader and more difficult issue, as these attacks are very map dependent and Bisu himself has to practice the maps he's going to play. This is the entire reason teams have the b-teamers who never play. My second issue is that playing with Bisu himself somehow makes you better at defending it, which probably isn't the case -- Bisu is the very best at executing things like this and it's very likely the SKTZergs, assuming Bisu is as great as he is, lose to this constantly. It is very easy to overprepare for these things and have it mess with your build order -- especially with very volatile zerg play. I'm not saying your argument can't be right, I'm just very skeptical. These things are not mutually exclusive. You most certainly did all of this, you also did it in an insulting, belittling, and absolutely uncalled for manner. That is my case and I'm dropping it here, sorry if you disagree. And no, explaining a circlejerk the way you did is not absolutely necessary. I 'jumped' on his post because it was the most recent one when I opened the thread this morning, that is all. There is really no favoritism in my decision to do so, I would have responded to blind SKT favoritism the same way. I actually agree with your first point and it is a good one, thank you. It does make sense to not waste Bisu's time to help all the other SKT zergs full-time on their respective maps, but I think that at least some exchange does happen. Exactly how much, we will never know, so this argument is moot at this point I believe. The second point I still disagree with, because I doubt that any Zerg loses to the first 4-6 zealots. Getting a disadvantage that carries into the midgame? Probably. But losing to? Doubtful. Because you are not going to argue the latter post further, I just want to close by saying that I explained it as I would to a child, because when a person doesn't understand a word or concept, I try to simplify things as much as possible to avoid confusion. I did not intend for it to be demeaning. EDIT: Quality control. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On August 10 2011 01:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: Isn't blind fanboyism in the spirit of the occasion that is the Grand Finals especially since this is between the biggest rivals in the pro scene SKT and KT. Obviously we will see some trash talk among fans and yes some of them will be downright retarded comments,but you gotta live with it,this happens once a year. I liquitbet for Samsung and ACE every time. i believe they can beat any team on any given day. This is what it means to be a "fan" =] | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: And please, don't construe this as me thinking the SKTZergs are incompetent ZvPers. They clearly aren't. But the complete dismissal of the guy who has been the fourth strongest player in proleague is shocking to me. It'd be like me coming in here and saying Fantasy can't possibly win because he's coming off a long losing streak with only a couple of recent wins. That's not exactly what I was trying to say, forgive me if I didn't express myself clearly. If you want to make a comparison with Fantasy that illustrates my point, you'd rather say that Fantasy can beat JD and Effort in POs because he's really clutch, that's not to be proved anymore, but if he was to meet Soulkey, I would say that Fantasy would lose for sure because he always plays with a very negative mindset against Soulkey. Or just like Kal who usually performs very well in Starleagues but always choke as soon as he reaches ro8/ro4 ? Just like in many sports, mental toughness plays a huge role, that's one of the reasons Flash is so good - even though it cost him the KA OSL, but that's another discussion  .Yes Stats just beat ZerO and Hydra, and yes Stats is one of the best protoss of the PL, I couldn't agree more. But in such an important match, when he will got so much pressure on his shoulders, facing SKT zergs that he hasn't been able to defeat during the last 9 months is sure going to be very difficult. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
For me, heart says kt but, mind says skt. Rooting for flash to take a game off bisu or best..... | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 10 2011 01:19 endy wrote: That's not exactly what I was trying to say, forgive me if I didn't express myself clearly. If you want to make a comparison with Fantasy that illustrates my point, you'd rather say that Fantasy can beat JD and Effort in POs because he's really clutch, that's not to be proved anymore, but if he was to meet Soulkey, I would say that Fantasy would lose for sure because he always plays with a very negative mindset against Soulkey. Or just like Kal who usually performs very well in Starleagues but always choke as soon as he reaches ro8/ro4 ? Just like in many sports, mental toughness plays a huge role, that's one of the reasons Flash is so good - even though it cost him the KA OSL, but that's another discussion .Yes Stats just beat ZerO and Hydra, and yes Stats is one of the best protoss of the PL, I couldn't agree more. But in such an important match, when he will got so much pressure on his shoulders, facing SKT zergs that he hasn't been able to defeat during the last 9 months is sure going to be very difficult. Last time he was in this situation he kicked Bisu's ass, and Soo lost to Tempest if you want to assert that the situation is a big deal. SKTZergs have done very well in ZvP this proleague season, but I do not think there's some unconquerable mental lock they have over Stats, I think his PvZ records against particular players are mostly happenstances -- besides Jaedong, who legitimately does have Stats number. (which is funny because JD lost to Violet this very year) | ||
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X10A
Canada9837 Posts
Hyuk beating Flash OR Mantoss beating Womantoss | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On August 10 2011 01:07 Fortis wrote: Because you are not going to argue the latter post further, I just want to close by saying that I explained it as I would to a child, because when a person doesn't understand a word or concept, I try to simplify things as much as possible to avoid confusion. I did not intend for it to be demeaning. My eyes are bleeding from all of your posts, but especially this part. Condescension is demeaning, as you very well know. Not only that, but this site is meant to be SFW, and your graphic descriptions have absolutely no place in a KT vs SKT live report thread. Poking fun at someone's English usage when it's not their first language isn't funny, it's pathetic. It's just low and immature to take an honest misunderstanding and use it to pretend your interlocutor is stupid. I could understand Sawamura just fine --- if you couldn't, maybe the problem is with you. + Show Spoiler + Humph. Hoping for some good games. | ||
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Fortis
Estonia63 Posts
On August 10 2011 02:48 Djabanete wrote: My eyes are bleeding from all of your posts, but especially this part. Condescension is demeaning, as you very well know. Not only that, but this site is meant to be SFW, and your graphic descriptions have absolutely no place in a KT vs SKT live report thread. Poking fun at someone's English usage when it's not their first language isn't funny, it's pathetic. It's just low and immature to take an honest misunderstanding and use it to pretend your interlocutor is stupid. I could understand Sawamura just fine --- if you couldn't, maybe the problem is with you. + Show Spoiler + Humph. Hoping for some good games. I sent Sawamura an apology PM and have been talking to TwoToneTerran about this, I do indeed take blame upon myself for my misunderstanding of his posts to the degree that I did. As I said, my English is not that good as well, what I failed to add after that is that perhaps this was leading to some of the confusion, something I did not consider (ironic in its arrogance). Sorry for derailing. I have edited the offending posts. | ||
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Ravencruiser
Canada519 Posts
Soooooooooo much Hypuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
On August 09 2011 16:46 endy wrote: Ok, here is a pic I took a few days ago, so it's previously unreleased ! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N5D1o.jpg) Damn tossgirl, looking even better after all these years :o... | ||
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Simplistik
2105 Posts
On August 10 2011 04:02 Ravencruiser wrote: Oh god, yes keep up the raging fanboyism please, both sides Soooooooooo much Hypuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a better form of hype... | ||
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