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On June 12 2011 02:39 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 01:36 Xiphos wrote:On June 12 2011 01:25 Chimpalimp wrote:On June 12 2011 01:10 Xiphos wrote:
It was somewhat obvious the strategy used by Flash. He hard-countered Mutalisks at every single game. In game 1 and 3, with fast Valks. Game 2, fast engineering bay +1 with fast Turrets. ZerO just couldn't do any huge amount of dmg to Flash in any way. I am always wondering why don't Zerg pros opt for Lurker first opening against Terran players. In game 1, if ZerO went for that Lurker first to defend against Flash's MnMs with the Spires built for Scourges against Valks (so they don't get massed to hunt down Overlords or just keep overlords together with Spore Colonies), ZerO could have stop his third being destroyed and be in relatively good shape. I think the spire opening could have done well if he just got some critical scourging of the valkyries, he might have held up better. Zero was often careless and lost mutalisk for nothing, better micro and he might have held off one of the early valk MnM pushes better. But I do agree that Zero did play exactly as Flash expected him to, thus Flash's risky hard counters did wonders. I think that if he went fast lurker at least one of the games, he could have at least tripped up Flash if only for a little bit, so it wouldn't seem like clockwork. I don't think Flash would have necessarily lost or done significantly worse if Zero went lurkers, but Zero might have been able to defend his 3rd one of the games. Overall Flash's preparation was outstanding and well executed as always, there is a reason he is Bonjwa. I agree with what you wrote there. I am STILL wondering why don't all Zerg players (nothing on ZerO specifically) go Lurkers opening once in a while against Terran to keep them honest in there plays. Flash's builds today was so abusive that I somewhat think the game is slightly tilted into Terran's favors. And this is the exact reason why I hate that Calm always....well, Clam himself for making stupid decisions because he is the only Zerg players that does Lurker/Muta openings switches these days. Lurker openings are way less solid overall, and Flash usually sniffs them out when they're coming and reacts accordingly. I remember when Soulkey tried to open lurks against Flash on Grand Line. :D Hilarious.
Link to VOD please sounds awesome :D
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What does it take to become at the level of flash at something im? 17 currently incoming college freshman and not knowing what i want to become, but i am and really inspired by all of his success so what does it take ? how is this guy the best at what he does
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On June 12 2011 11:37 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:39 Holgerius wrote:On June 12 2011 01:36 Xiphos wrote:On June 12 2011 01:25 Chimpalimp wrote:On June 12 2011 01:10 Xiphos wrote:
It was somewhat obvious the strategy used by Flash. He hard-countered Mutalisks at every single game. In game 1 and 3, with fast Valks. Game 2, fast engineering bay +1 with fast Turrets. ZerO just couldn't do any huge amount of dmg to Flash in any way. I am always wondering why don't Zerg pros opt for Lurker first opening against Terran players. In game 1, if ZerO went for that Lurker first to defend against Flash's MnMs with the Spires built for Scourges against Valks (so they don't get massed to hunt down Overlords or just keep overlords together with Spore Colonies), ZerO could have stop his third being destroyed and be in relatively good shape. I think the spire opening could have done well if he just got some critical scourging of the valkyries, he might have held up better. Zero was often careless and lost mutalisk for nothing, better micro and he might have held off one of the early valk MnM pushes better. But I do agree that Zero did play exactly as Flash expected him to, thus Flash's risky hard counters did wonders. I think that if he went fast lurker at least one of the games, he could have at least tripped up Flash if only for a little bit, so it wouldn't seem like clockwork. I don't think Flash would have necessarily lost or done significantly worse if Zero went lurkers, but Zero might have been able to defend his 3rd one of the games. Overall Flash's preparation was outstanding and well executed as always, there is a reason he is Bonjwa. I agree with what you wrote there. I am STILL wondering why don't all Zerg players (nothing on ZerO specifically) go Lurkers opening once in a while against Terran to keep them honest in there plays. Flash's builds today was so abusive that I somewhat think the game is slightly tilted into Terran's favors. And this is the exact reason why I hate that Calm always....well, Clam himself for making stupid decisions because he is the only Zerg players that does Lurker/Muta openings switches these days. Lurker openings are way less solid overall, and Flash usually sniffs them out when they're coming and reacts accordingly. I remember when Soulkey tried to open lurks against Flash on Grand Line. :D Hilarious. Link to VOD please sounds awesome :D
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/48777_Flash_vs_Neo.G_Soulkey/vod
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36661_Flash_vs_Neo.G_Soulkey/vod
Awesome games. XD
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On June 12 2011 11:45 PeterHuynh wrote:
What does it take to become at the level of flash at something im? 17 currently incoming college freshman and not knowing what i want to become, but i am and really inspired by all of his success so what does it take ? how is this guy the best at what he does
Cybernetic implants (ideally, you'd just be an all out robot), telepathic powers, and pocari sweat. Missing any of these will result in failure.
Dropping out of school, beating Boxer, cheesing every well known player, all in the course of a few months, helps and is probably necessary.
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On June 12 2011 11:53 chocorush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 11:45 PeterHuynh wrote:
What does it take to become at the level of flash at something im? 17 currently incoming college freshman and not knowing what i want to become, but i am and really inspired by all of his success so what does it take ? how is this guy the best at what he does Cybernetic implants (ideally, you'd just be an all out robot), telepathic powers, and pocari sweat. Missing any of these will result in failure. Dropping out of school, beating Boxer, cheesing every well known player, all in the course of a few months, helps and is probably necessary.
Don't forget the ability to suppress your desire to chase after girls.
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On June 12 2011 11:50 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 11:37 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:On June 12 2011 02:39 Holgerius wrote:On June 12 2011 01:36 Xiphos wrote:On June 12 2011 01:25 Chimpalimp wrote:On June 12 2011 01:10 Xiphos wrote:
It was somewhat obvious the strategy used by Flash. He hard-countered Mutalisks at every single game. In game 1 and 3, with fast Valks. Game 2, fast engineering bay +1 with fast Turrets. ZerO just couldn't do any huge amount of dmg to Flash in any way. I am always wondering why don't Zerg pros opt for Lurker first opening against Terran players. In game 1, if ZerO went for that Lurker first to defend against Flash's MnMs with the Spires built for Scourges against Valks (so they don't get massed to hunt down Overlords or just keep overlords together with Spore Colonies), ZerO could have stop his third being destroyed and be in relatively good shape. I think the spire opening could have done well if he just got some critical scourging of the valkyries, he might have held up better. Zero was often careless and lost mutalisk for nothing, better micro and he might have held off one of the early valk MnM pushes better. But I do agree that Zero did play exactly as Flash expected him to, thus Flash's risky hard counters did wonders. I think that if he went fast lurker at least one of the games, he could have at least tripped up Flash if only for a little bit, so it wouldn't seem like clockwork. I don't think Flash would have necessarily lost or done significantly worse if Zero went lurkers, but Zero might have been able to defend his 3rd one of the games. Overall Flash's preparation was outstanding and well executed as always, there is a reason he is Bonjwa. I agree with what you wrote there. I am STILL wondering why don't all Zerg players (nothing on ZerO specifically) go Lurkers opening once in a while against Terran to keep them honest in there plays. Flash's builds today was so abusive that I somewhat think the game is slightly tilted into Terran's favors. And this is the exact reason why I hate that Calm always....well, Clam himself for making stupid decisions because he is the only Zerg players that does Lurker/Muta openings switches these days. Lurker openings are way less solid overall, and Flash usually sniffs them out when they're coming and reacts accordingly. I remember when Soulkey tried to open lurks against Flash on Grand Line. :D Hilarious. Link to VOD please sounds awesome :D http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/48777_Flash_vs_Neo.G_Soulkey/vodhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36661_Flash_vs_Neo.G_Soulkey/vodAwesome games. XD
Agreed xD thanks for the links 
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Kind of interesting how Zero was also the one that played against that ridiculously powerful mech play that Flash abused on Polaris Rhapsody. Seems he's quite often on the receiving end of unstoppable forces.
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On June 12 2011 09:14 WaterTower wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 05:44 Ermac wrote:On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote:+ Show Spoiler +As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you...
a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI.
b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air.
c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides.
d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter.
So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck.
Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better.
Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler.
Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones.
This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change.
Solutions:
-Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade
-Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start
-Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65
-Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used
-Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful)
-Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas
I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. This is either the weirdest troll I've ever seen or the most blatant stupidity... How the fuck can you compare Goliaths and Guardians in 1vs1 situations? o.O Guardians = Hive Tech = 150 minerals + 200gas Goliaths = 100 minerals + 50 gas I won't even bother getting into the rest of your "suggestions" and "analysis". You obviously don't know the first thing about competitive Starcraft or any RTS game for that matter... Goons do win in a 1v1 fight against guardians and they are tier 1.5 tech. They both require the same amount of food, which is almost as important as minerals/gas needed. As for exciting games, I make the prediction now that zvz will not change from mutaling. Not now, not in the future.
I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly changed topic and started a new thread:
"Rock-Paper-Scissors is imbalanced"
I hope you understood that the previous sentences were not only a jab at your reasoning ability, but a direct rebuttal against your "goons win against guardians while goliaths do not". Please tell me you understand at least that.
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On June 12 2011 12:27 chocorush wrote:
Kind of interesting how Zero was also the one that played against that ridiculously powerful mech play that Flash abused on Polaris Rhapsody. Seems he's quite often on the receiving end of unstoppable forces.
True, he looked a lot better in those games though and has beaten him before in that situation (infact i feel Flash wanted to avoid the splitting the map style of mech) because ZerO has got better at it since then, and he was already very good at it. So Flash was just very clear in use of the bio-openings, the valkyries, and then finally the mech for the killing blow without even having to set up and wait for ZerO to attack. With his unit choices he remained in control the whole time, never allowing ZerO a safe time.
It certainly was interesting even if the games seemed kinda sucky and non-intense, it's almost a combination of many styles all into one seriously strong overall Terran strategy. We had pure bio, we had totally pure mech before and now we've have variants in between of every type recently. But this felt like a free-flowing (even if it as planned) use of every unit in all the right situations. It was a sight to behold. Zero doesn't have the same luxuries however but i would like to see how they would play against this style. Jaedong i think would be the most threatening just by being excellent at identifying and exploiting a very short timing weakeness, like between a tech/unit switch.
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What I really loved was the moment when I was watching Kyante's stream, and in game 3, when Flash was pressuring Zero's 7 o'clock, the signal lost.
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No point in saying 'if JD was here..' etc since Zero earned his spot. Shame it had to go out like this. Gratz to Flash, again.
I still need to see the Vods but it seems like Flash played flawless SC. This I must see.
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shit nvm he wa arleadhy warned fo it nvm.
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Flash played perfect games
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Epic OP by the way.Really well done!
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On June 12 2011 11:45 PeterHuynh wrote:
What does it take to become at the level of flash at something im? 17 currently incoming college freshman and not knowing what i want to become, but i am and really inspired by all of his success so what does it take ? how is this guy the best at what he does
It is impossible to be like Flash without having a very strong, real talent and passion for the game, as well as 14 hour practice sessions daily. Then there's the real pressure to perform. It's not a game for these people, it's their job and it's very competitive. KT's coach is known to be brutal and he really treats his job as seriously as any national league Football or Basketball coach, and maybe even beyond that. Many Americans or Europeans might think its all for fun but the Korean progamers definitely dont feel that way.
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On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote:
As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you...
a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI.
b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air.
c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides.
d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter.
So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck.
Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better.
Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler.
Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones.
This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change.
Solutions:
-Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade
-Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start
-Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65
-Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used
-Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful)
-Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas
I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat.
Coming from someone who plays around with the map editor? Where does micro and unit positioning come into this? No BW needs no more changes. This game is as balanced as its gonna get.
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On June 12 2011 11:45 PeterHuynh wrote:
What does it take to become at the level of flash at something im? 17 currently incoming college freshman and not knowing what i want to become, but i am and really inspired by all of his success so what does it take ? how is this guy the best at what he does
You must Born as Flash.Any other way will result in a fail.
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This is the first MSL/OSL finals I haven't watched in 3 years (Well, it was only the third I couldn't watch live). It was just too obvious what was going to happen. I checked the spoilers game by game just to make sure; If I saw Zero winning even one game, I would have watched the series, but I knew the chances of that happening were close to zero.
I'm sure there were some entertaining plays, but knowing the result beforehand makes it unworthy of my time during finals.
I hope the next individual league finals aren't as one-sided.
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Showmatch by Bonjwa
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EPT
