EPT
Flash wrecked 
ZerO. That build in game 1 was sick. Grats to flash for absolutely amazing Starcraft. People crying about imba don't understand BW at all.[MSL] Grand Final - Page 182
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
Flash wrecked ZerO. That build in game 1 was sick. Grats to flash for absolutely amazing Starcraft. People crying about imba don't understand BW at all. | ||
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WaterTower
France138 Posts
On June 12 2011 05:24 Z3kk wrote: WaterTower, you are crazy. The game is fine as it is. Goliaths already have adequate range, DAs do not have to be used for BW to still be interesting (and can still be used sometimes), defiler skills are fine, firebats still do what they were intended for very well, and hydra cost as well as damage is fine. Brood War does not need massive changes or balancing, and the game is fine as it is. Don't fix what isn't broken. Probably don't need even to respond to that because it lends an air of semi-legitimacy to those proposed changes. This doesn't even belong in this thread, at all. I walked over holy ground and I know it. SC has worked, and worked better than any RTS game ever in history in terms of fun and balance. However, none of my changes are "massive" and this thread did have a poll about changing SC. It is undeniable that some units are never used and some matchups are the biggest pain ever to watch. (scouts and zvz respectively) | ||
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Ermac
336 Posts
On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote: + Show Spoiler + As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you... a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI. b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air. c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides. d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter. So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck. Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better. Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler. Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones. This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change. Solutions: -Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade -Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start -Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65 -Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used -Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful) -Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. This is either the weirdest troll I've ever seen or the most blatant stupidity... How the fuck can you compare Goliaths and Guardians in 1vs1 situations? o.O Guardians = Hive Tech = 150 minerals + 200gas Goliaths = 100 minerals + 50 gas I won't even bother getting into the rest of your "suggestions" and "analysis". You obviously don't know the first thing about competitive Starcraft or any RTS game for that matter... | ||
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_awake_
196 Posts
On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote: As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you... a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI. b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air. c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides. d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter. So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck. Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better. Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler. Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones. This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change. Solutions: -Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade -Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start -Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65 -Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used -Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful) -Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. every unit being used != balance | ||
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Ryps
Romania2740 Posts
Stop posting fixes, you cant fix Flash unless he slumps or Jaedong beats him. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7577 Posts
On June 12 2011 05:55 Drey wrote: I dont know how people still havent gotten this yet : Flash is better than all other terrans, it aint a race problem that is imbalance, its a Flash problem. Terran aint the issue here. Stop posting fixes, you cant fix Flash unless he slumps or Jaedong beats him. I agree. It also happens that other than saviors era we have always had a terran god. I didn't watch these games and think "zero sucks" I thought, "Playing predictably against the strongest player of all time is dumb". The reason Jaedong made a big splash in ZvT was his vicious large balls approach, between 9pool/2hat muta/ 3 hat/ and a handful of very aggro variations. 3 hat muta vs rax/cc in most situations gives terran a slight plus, probably about the same -.50 as black gets at the opening of a chess game. Zero has insane micro and should have aggro at least once. | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
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hmmm...
632 Posts
On June 11 2011 22:37 Keone wrote: LOL This is the DEFINITION of Irony. People asking for Jaedong NOT to face a Zerg??? What has the world come to??? NOOOO You should have asked him to HIT you And therefore BREAK THE FIRST LAW OF ROBOTICS ASIMOV FTW if this was 2 years ago, yes. but it's no irony today. | ||
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MeteorRise
Canada611 Posts
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Musou
1375 Posts
On June 11 2011 22:32 mnesthes wrote: It looks from the interview that Flash won mainly due to ribs  Now we know that POCARI is the drink of God and RIB EYE STEAK is the food! Wow. Rib eye steak was on sale yesterday for 50% off when I went to the market and I bought a few pounds of it and made some for dinner while waiting for MSL. Coincidence? or providence? | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote: Terran already has the most cost effective anti air in the game (turrets) and ground vs air units arent possible to balance in all numbers, because of air units non diminishing dsmage output. If you balance air vs ground around 200 vs 200, then air units will suck in low numbers, if you balance it around 1 vs 1, then air units willl dominate in high numbers.As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you... a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI. b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air. c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides. d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter. So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck. Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better. Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler. Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones. This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change. Solutions: -Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade -Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start -Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65 -Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used -Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful) -Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. Maelstrom and ensnare are regarded as "bad" spells from rts gameplay perspective because they are anti micro, preventing opponent from doing anything. Because of that, buff may be not so good. | ||
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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maximuspita
1093 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On June 12 2011 06:06 xarthaz wrote: 3 hatch muta is the only decent opening at the top level, its that simple. its outrageous to call a player predictable for only using the viable opener. the other options just arent good enough. But when it comes to series play, if you don't fuck with Flash's mind then you are going to get crushed by him, especially because Flash is a beast at preparing for a series. Like if we look back at the last Zero vs Flash series, Zero introduced 12pool 2hatch mutas, which was completely novel at the time, and came out with an absolutely beautiful gameplan and crushed Flash. 3hatch play might be the only stable way to open in ZvT, but when you're playing someone that is so good that only one Zerg player in the world has the capability to play against him straight up, then you can't just play completely standard. Even Effort, who was the only person that kept playing 3hatch when literally every other Zerg was utterly obsessed with 2hatch, knew that he couldn't beat Flash consistently straight-up. He played tons of mind games with Flash and he ended up being one of the few Zergs to beat him convincingly after Flash's second rise (the "God" era). And if you open 3hatch muta every single game then it becomes too easy for the Terran to take advantage of it. 3hatch muta vs 1rax cc is fine if both sides play completely standard as in that both sides play conservatively in order to be flexible to deal with anything. But Flash doesn't do that in series play. He makes calculated guesses and picks and/or tailors builds to hurt the Zerg when they're helpless. He uses these builds that are efficient in very limited scenarios but he usually gets the scenario that he wants and he just wins the game without breaking a sweat. As a Zerg you have to fuck with him even if it's at the expense of being inefficient, because if you play the way Flash is expecting you to then you just roll over and die. | ||
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PBC
167 Posts
poor zero. i guess godmode flash is still going strong | ||
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
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Kazius
Israel1456 Posts
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote: As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you... a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI. b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air. c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides. d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter. So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck. Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better. Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler. Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones. This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change. Solutions: -Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade -Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start -Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65 -Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used -Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful) -Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. Lol, I think the funniest part was "For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change. " | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
It still was a disappointing finals to me. But I guess Flash's uniqueness is finally written in stone. He definitely deserves it. | ||
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