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SC2 fans invading this thread and talking about balance: Exit to your left. Zero lost because Flash played near-perfect BROOD WAR. God, I really wanted Zero to win. But this wasn't even close. It was ALMOST as bad of a beatdown as the Hana Daetoo MSL. I'll have to rewatch both series to determine which zerg was more helpless.
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Jesus. I don't know whether to be in complete awe, utter disgust, mindless confusion, or all three of the above. What the hell...
What does this man take everyday that lets him do everything in an SC game that we promise to ourselves to do but forget utterly 5 minutes into the game? I need some of it. Stupidly good valkonic aggression, then the epitome of vulture harass into late mech, then both at the same time while having enough tanks to waltz into dark swarms? I don't care how bad ZerO was, what FlaSh did today was nothing short of inevitable and insurmountable. God fucking damn it, JD needs some of that mojo.
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On June 12 2011 06:54 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 06:06 xarthaz wrote:
3 hatch muta is the only decent opening at the top level, its that simple. its outrageous to call a player predictable for only using the viable opener. the other options just arent good enough. But when it comes to series play, if you don't fuck with Flash's mind then you are going to get crushed by him, especially because Flash is a beast at preparing for a series. Like if we look back at the last Zero vs Flash series, Zero introduced 12pool 2hatch mutas, which was completely novel at the time, and came out with an absolutely beautiful gameplan and crushed Flash. 3hatch play might be the only stable way to open in ZvT, but when you're playing someone that is so good that only one Zerg player in the world has the capability to play against him straight up, then you can't just play completely standard. Even Effort, who was the only person that kept playing 3hatch when literally every other Zerg was utterly obsessed with 2hatch, knew that he couldn't beat Flash consistently straight-up. He played tons of mind games with Flash and he ended up being one of the few Zergs to beat him convincingly after Flash's second rise (the "God" era). And if you open 3hatch muta every single game then it becomes too easy for the Terran to take advantage of it. 3hatch muta vs 1rax cc is fine if both sides play completely standard as in that both sides play conservatively in order to be flexible to deal with anything. But Flash doesn't do that in series play. He makes calculated guesses and picks and/or tailors builds to hurt the Zerg when they're helpless. He uses these builds that are efficient in very limited scenarios but he usually gets the scenario that he wants and he just wins the game without breaking a sweat. As a Zerg you have to fuck with him even if it's at the expense of being inefficient, because if you play the way Flash is expecting you to then you just roll over and die.
I agree with this. Even JD did some heavy aggressive openings vs FlaSh as much as he can when he did play him. Effort also did the same when he came back and 3-2 FlaSh last time.
Do you not see the coincidence here? You can't beat FlaSh by being so passive then try to over run him. By the time the game hits that stage, FlaSh would be way ahead in econ and map control.
ZerO has been compared with Savior, that's fine I do see the resemblance in play style. But Savior as far as I can remember doesn't make any Micro mistakes, ZerO made a lot of them during the series. ZerO was predicable 3 games in a row that allowed FlaSh to basically do exactly what he wants all the time. By the time ZerO was some what ready to counter, FlaSh had him completely contained. He did bust out his Queens game 2, but he has in no position to take advantage of it after killing off all of the Siege Tanks.
You can't face FlaSh and be passive. Or if you are, you have to be AS good if not better then he is. There is a very selected few who can say that, mainly TBLS.
ZerO may be the 2nd best Zerg but he did not show up today or hell even put up any sort of a fight. It was extremely disappointing to the point where all Finals so far has been... stupidly one sided. Boring to watch >.<
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10387 Posts
Disappointed that Zero never opened up Lurkers, I always liked his Lurker play..
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Flash's early-mid game is the best. If you play standard, you won't beat it. His timing is too good, his micro is good enough, and he reinforces that first group so well that its near impossible to beat.
It may seem like Zero made a lot of errors, but that was due to extreme duress. The worst (or best, if you're a fan like me) thing is, it doesn't get better; Flash's late game management is even better.
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lmfao scores so predictable
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On June 12 2011 08:35 Seraphic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 06:54 koreasilver wrote:On June 12 2011 06:06 xarthaz wrote:
3 hatch muta is the only decent opening at the top level, its that simple. its outrageous to call a player predictable for only using the viable opener. the other options just arent good enough. But when it comes to series play, if you don't fuck with Flash's mind then you are going to get crushed by him, especially because Flash is a beast at preparing for a series. Like if we look back at the last Zero vs Flash series, Zero introduced 12pool 2hatch mutas, which was completely novel at the time, and came out with an absolutely beautiful gameplan and crushed Flash. 3hatch play might be the only stable way to open in ZvT, but when you're playing someone that is so good that only one Zerg player in the world has the capability to play against him straight up, then you can't just play completely standard. Even Effort, who was the only person that kept playing 3hatch when literally every other Zerg was utterly obsessed with 2hatch, knew that he couldn't beat Flash consistently straight-up. He played tons of mind games with Flash and he ended up being one of the few Zergs to beat him convincingly after Flash's second rise (the "God" era). And if you open 3hatch muta every single game then it becomes too easy for the Terran to take advantage of it. 3hatch muta vs 1rax cc is fine if both sides play completely standard as in that both sides play conservatively in order to be flexible to deal with anything. But Flash doesn't do that in series play. He makes calculated guesses and picks and/or tailors builds to hurt the Zerg when they're helpless. He uses these builds that are efficient in very limited scenarios but he usually gets the scenario that he wants and he just wins the game without breaking a sweat. As a Zerg you have to fuck with him even if it's at the expense of being inefficient, because if you play the way Flash is expecting you to then you just roll over and die. I agree with this. Even JD did some heavy aggressive openings vs FlaSh as much as he can when he did play him. Effort also did the same when he came back and 3-2 FlaSh last time. Do you not see the coincidence here? You can't beat FlaSh by being so passive then try to over run him. By the time the game hits that stage, FlaSh would be way ahead in econ and map control. ZerO has been compared with Savior, that's fine I do see the resemblance in play style. But Savior as far as I can remember doesn't make any Micro mistakes, ZerO made a lot of them during the series. ZerO was predicable 3 games in a row that allowed FlaSh to basically do exactly what he wants all the time. By the time ZerO was some what ready to counter, FlaSh had him completely contained. He did bust out his Queens game 2, but he has in no position to take advantage of it after killing off all of the Siege Tanks. You can't face FlaSh and be passive. Or if you are, you have to be AS good if not better then he is. There is a very selected few who can say that, mainly TBLS. ZerO may be the 2nd best Zerg but he did not show up today or hell even put up any sort of a fight. It was extremely disappointing to the point where all Finals so far has been... stupidly one sided. Boring to watch >.<
Really good post. I completely agree and as I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread, Flash's most dominating wins in finals come when he does some sort of timing push. 3 Hatch Muta is fine for proleague, but it is not good against Flash in finals because he can prepare perfect counters on each map. 2 Hatch Muta, 2 Hatch Lurk, 4 Pool, and Ling allins are all (somewhat) viable builds that allow zerg to control the flow of the game to some extent. Other zerg players (jaedong, effort, calm, zero in the past) have all deviated from the 3 hatch muta build and none of them got rolled as hard as zero did in this MSL. Flash predicted everything zero did and zero with his subpar muta control couldn't even put up a fight.
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On June 12 2011 05:44 Ermac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote:+ Show Spoiler +As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you...
a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI.
b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air.
c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides.
d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter.
So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck.
Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better.
Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler.
Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones.
This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change.
Solutions:
-Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade
-Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start
-Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65
-Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used
-Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful)
-Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas
I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. This is either the weirdest troll I've ever seen or the most blatant stupidity... How the fuck can you compare Goliaths and Guardians in 1vs1 situations? o.O Guardians = Hive Tech = 150 minerals + 200gas Goliaths = 100 minerals + 50 gas I won't even bother getting into the rest of your "suggestions" and "analysis". You obviously don't know the first thing about competitive Starcraft or any RTS game for that matter...
Goons do win in a 1v1 fight against guardians and they are tier 1.5 tech. They both require the same amount of food, which is almost as important as minerals/gas needed.
As for exciting games, I make the prediction now that zvz will not change from mutaling. Not now, not in the future.
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On June 12 2011 09:14 WaterTower wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 05:44 Ermac wrote:On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote:+ Show Spoiler +As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you...
a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI.
b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air.
c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides.
d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter.
So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck.
Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better.
Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler.
Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones.
This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change.
Solutions:
-Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade
-Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start
-Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65
-Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used
-Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful)
-Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas
I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. This is either the weirdest troll I've ever seen or the most blatant stupidity... How the fuck can you compare Goliaths and Guardians in 1vs1 situations? o.O Guardians = Hive Tech = 150 minerals + 200gas Goliaths = 100 minerals + 50 gas I won't even bother getting into the rest of your "suggestions" and "analysis". You obviously don't know the first thing about competitive Starcraft or any RTS game for that matter... Goons do win in a 1v1 fight against guardians and they are tier 1.5 tech. They both require the same amount of food, which is almost as important as minerals/gas needed. As for exciting games, I make the prediction now that zvz will not change from mutaling. Not now, not in the future.
Fewer and fewer ZvZ are pure mutaling. Perhaps follow brood war instead of just spewing things out that you're clueless about. It's just provocative to those of us dedicated to BW.
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Pretty sure Jaedong could have done better than a 3-0, but I guess ZerO's better ZvZ earned him the spot in finals. Either way, both of these players deserved to be in the finals, definitely showed their skills through the brackets.
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-_- wow Zero. Even though i was rooting for Flash. Come'on. Should have let Jeadong win.'
Zero= Total Zero
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On June 12 2011 09:18 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 09:14 WaterTower wrote:On June 12 2011 05:44 Ermac wrote:On June 12 2011 05:19 WaterTower wrote:+ Show Spoiler +As an old timer who played SC since 1999 and daily up until 2006 or so, I have to say that StarCraft is most definitely not balanced. I actually used to waste half my time making funny maps just to see what would happen, such as 100 goliaths vs 100 guardians. Here are some facts that might interest you...
a)goliaths do not win 1v1 vs guardians whether upgraded or not (this is actually having them directly attacking each other, without guardians using any cliff tricks). This effect is made worse because guardians have much better AI.
b)Archon is barely the same as ultralisk. Archons usually win 1v1. But archons are better because they have splash and attack air.
c)Archons barely win against Battlecruiser and barely loses against carrier assuming just a run up attack for both sides.
d)Scout ground attack has the lowest dps of any unit per mineral+gas besides arbiter.
So what I'm getting at is simple. Those observations directly indicate that goliaths are underpowered, archons a little too powerful, and scouts useless. Although they are one of the most common "air to air" counters, in most games, carriers >> mass goliaths. Goliath AI also suck.
Scouts, of course, are never used because they are slow, expensive, and cost a lot to upgrade the two abilities it does have. Against Zerg, corsair are always better and against terran, carrier is always better.
Dark Archons also suck because they cost 4 food. A special ability costing 75 mana for the dark archon cost the same as an ability costing 150 mana for all the 2 food casters such as Defiler.
Experienced players have gotten so good they they way overuse the overpowered units and rarely use the underpowered ones.
This results in too many games where players just do the standard build and not really do anything exciting. For SC to be exciting again, the game needs to change.
Solutions:
-Increase goliath range by 1 with Charon upgrade
-Give scouts the sight and speed upgrade to start
-Lower mind control cost to 125 and maelstrom to 65
-Lower ensnare and parasite cost to 50. They are the actual abilities which are never used
-Increase firebat HP by 10HP (Firebats are just pitiful)
-Lower hydra price to 65 minerals and 20 gas
I think that's about it. Anyone who doesnt agree with everything needs to know that certain annoying aspects of competitive play are directly caused by imbalance, for example, ZvZ is terrible to watch and is always mutaling because hydras suck so badly, doing 5 damage to mutas and lings (even less than marine). It also makes protoss think twice before the standard quick expand/corsair with 2-3 photons at the choke because hydras would actually be a real threat. This is either the weirdest troll I've ever seen or the most blatant stupidity... How the fuck can you compare Goliaths and Guardians in 1vs1 situations? o.O Guardians = Hive Tech = 150 minerals + 200gas Goliaths = 100 minerals + 50 gas I won't even bother getting into the rest of your "suggestions" and "analysis". You obviously don't know the first thing about competitive Starcraft or any RTS game for that matter... Goons do win in a 1v1 fight against guardians and they are tier 1.5 tech. They both require the same amount of food, which is almost as important as minerals/gas needed. As for exciting games, I make the prediction now that zvz will not change from mutaling. Not now, not in the future. Fewer and fewer ZvZ are pure mutaling. Perhaps follow brood war instead of just spewing things out that you're clueless about. It's just provocative to those of us dedicated to BW.
Never thought I would stir up a storm. SC has been on the decline since Savior left. He was the last successful innovative player. That was 5 years ago.
User was warned for this post
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After watching these finals I feel that Hydra put up a better fight than Zero did. Other than the first few minutes of game 1, ZerO just wasn't competitive at all, Hydra atleast put up some sort of fight in game 2.
In the end, Flash is just way too good. I can't help but wonder if Jaedong would have even stood a chance.
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flash is now a golden mouse and golden badge winner!!!
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On June 12 2011 09:01 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 08:35 Seraphic wrote:On June 12 2011 06:54 koreasilver wrote:On June 12 2011 06:06 xarthaz wrote:
3 hatch muta is the only decent opening at the top level, its that simple. its outrageous to call a player predictable for only using the viable opener. the other options just arent good enough. But when it comes to series play, if you don't fuck with Flash's mind then you are going to get crushed by him, especially because Flash is a beast at preparing for a series. Like if we look back at the last Zero vs Flash series, Zero introduced 12pool 2hatch mutas, which was completely novel at the time, and came out with an absolutely beautiful gameplan and crushed Flash. 3hatch play might be the only stable way to open in ZvT, but when you're playing someone that is so good that only one Zerg player in the world has the capability to play against him straight up, then you can't just play completely standard. Even Effort, who was the only person that kept playing 3hatch when literally every other Zerg was utterly obsessed with 2hatch, knew that he couldn't beat Flash consistently straight-up. He played tons of mind games with Flash and he ended up being one of the few Zergs to beat him convincingly after Flash's second rise (the "God" era). And if you open 3hatch muta every single game then it becomes too easy for the Terran to take advantage of it. 3hatch muta vs 1rax cc is fine if both sides play completely standard as in that both sides play conservatively in order to be flexible to deal with anything. But Flash doesn't do that in series play. He makes calculated guesses and picks and/or tailors builds to hurt the Zerg when they're helpless. He uses these builds that are efficient in very limited scenarios but he usually gets the scenario that he wants and he just wins the game without breaking a sweat. As a Zerg you have to fuck with him even if it's at the expense of being inefficient, because if you play the way Flash is expecting you to then you just roll over and die. I agree with this. Even JD did some heavy aggressive openings vs FlaSh as much as he can when he did play him. Effort also did the same when he came back and 3-2 FlaSh last time. Do you not see the coincidence here? You can't beat FlaSh by being so passive then try to over run him. By the time the game hits that stage, FlaSh would be way ahead in econ and map control. ZerO has been compared with Savior, that's fine I do see the resemblance in play style. But Savior as far as I can remember doesn't make any Micro mistakes, ZerO made a lot of them during the series. ZerO was predicable 3 games in a row that allowed FlaSh to basically do exactly what he wants all the time. By the time ZerO was some what ready to counter, FlaSh had him completely contained. He did bust out his Queens game 2, but he has in no position to take advantage of it after killing off all of the Siege Tanks. You can't face FlaSh and be passive. Or if you are, you have to be AS good if not better then he is. There is a very selected few who can say that, mainly TBLS. ZerO may be the 2nd best Zerg but he did not show up today or hell even put up any sort of a fight. It was extremely disappointing to the point where all Finals so far has been... stupidly one sided. Boring to watch >.< Really good post. I completely agree and as I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread, Flash's most dominating wins in finals come when he does some sort of timing push. 3 Hatch Muta is fine for proleague, but it is not good against Flash in finals because he can prepare perfect counters on each map. 2 Hatch Muta, 2 Hatch Lurk, 4 Pool, and Ling allins are all (somewhat) viable builds that allow zerg to control the flow of the game to some extent. Other zerg players (jaedong, effort, calm, zero in the past) have all deviated from the 3 hatch muta build and none of them got rolled as hard as zero did in this MSL. Flash predicted everything zero did and zero with his subpar muta control couldn't even put up a fight. This kind of gambles... really.. as flash said, 2 hatch muta is basically dependent on having open mineral line. if its against the wall then its not a very good build. 4 pool similarly depends on racks marine spawn being in an easy to snipe location(or terran going for 8 rax like in fvj 4pool game). both are very risky, more of a desparation move than anything. similar to bbs kind of, and terrans almost never use it because its so unreliable compared to a macro game.
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On June 12 2011 03:19 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:55 SkelA wrote:
Zergs should stop using greedy builds against Flash and start doing some unortodox shit to surprize him like Effort did. You cant beat Flash with greedy macro builds period. I wish there is a zerg who will grow some balls do throw some 4pool, 9pool, 2 hatch lurk play and similar stuff against Flash.... yes you might be still in a disadvantage but its still better than 3 hatch before pool no sunk style and just get owned by sick timings from FLash.
This final was just one huge stomp from Flash. He had studied Zero playing style and just dismantled him with good builds. Zero didnt stand a chance because he didnt even adapt and just played his own style which was countered in all 3 games. Pretty much this. In interview with Flash post-game, he specifically noted that he prepared for Woongjin Zerg's (and Zero's) playstyle of playing for macro.
the mm valk build completely shuts down any kind of muta greedy style, i was really sad when zero kept losing the same way and wouldn't deviate
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It was a sort of interesting final tactically but the overall entertaining was almost none, Flash really knows how to abuse every unit he wants (or vital unit's he doesn't even want) and cover all angles. It's really clear only Jaedong can even put a dent in his Armour when he plays like this, by simply using each unit to it's strengths and having impeccable multitasking.
Even when Flash loses an engagement, every time it feels like there's just another set of units that directly counters it a few screens away. I think i learn more and more about my own TvZ every game lie this i watch (despite my own mechanical failures).
And let's be honest because it will be bought up, T > Z here (and always has been if the stats were not clear enough for you, plus the fact there's barely any ZvT specialists ever). Not that it decided the game or anything like that, Flash was tons better, but that small advantage rolls into a huge one when when he TvZ's. Zergs are always hanging on a tightrope and waiting for mistakes from their opponent and trying to gain an eco advantage. Meanwhile the opposite is not true at all, a T mistake is simply a speedbump. Flash doesn't seen make these mistakes and just abuses EVERYTHING possible. If he scouts you well, any unit-combo you you make will be his bitch. T is just full of options like that, and Flash uses so much so effectively (unike Fantasy who likes to 1 gimmick to use in a game instead of implemention of them in a well balanced style). He's now used valks like 3 times in starleague final games, proving beyond any doubt they are useful.
Imo it's a great testament to JD that he can even hang in some games with him at all with sheer mechanical skill. There's nothing new and crazy Zerg can discover at this point (except futile attempts of showmanships with Queens, though i believe ensnare on bio/parasite on vessel could be genuinely useful). So they simply gotta take a core force of hydra/muta/ling in the midgame and manage to compete against to the huge myriad of unit combos with timings and variations, while most attempts at harass shut down fairly easily. Tough matchup right now for pro's for sure, in my opinion at least. I'd like to see some alternate methods of play maybe.
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I just watched the VODs. You know what this reminded me most of?
A series long, long ago in which iloveoov rolled over YellOw - among other things, with an early mech build. In neither series did the Zerg play badly, both series were good games: and both ended 3-0. Though hopefully ZerO can avoid the Kong line.
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While there weren't any tense moments, it is always enjoyable to me to see Flash play this way. The way Flash's play seems unstoppable reminds me of that feeling I got when watching Savior back in the day.
Really hope valkyrie + mnm into mech is here to stay. Would like to see how stable it is against zerg, and what the zerg reaction will be. Right now, it just seems like an asshole way to turn the game into a 2 base zerg vs. 4 base mech terran steamroll (which is pretty awe-inspiring if you're not the one facing it).
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EPT
