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On March 26 2011 01:52 DarkMatter_ wrote:
You're missing the point. I'm not mentioning that one game to try and argue that Flash has never made great comebacks. I'm mentioning that one game because people keep insisting that when someone makes a comeback from a losing position, we shouldn't consider the circumstances that led to that comeback when deciding whether it's a "jaw dropping comeback" or not.....because every comeback involves the opponents making mistakes lololol so an opponent throwing his entire army away by flying 10 dropships over turrets is no different than an opponent that makes some questionable decisions which the other player perfectly capitalizes on to pull of an outstanding comeback because both games involve the losing player making mistakes to lose his advantage. Amazing logic.
Jeez, dude, you're getting really aggressive about this. My point was you've addressed 3 games of several examples -- and I even acknowledge that Leta's massive blunder let Flash get back into a lost game. It's more noticeable than blunders in other comebacks and I accept it isn't as amazing as, say, flash vs fbh. The most important thing of that game is how well Flash played directly after getting into an almost unwinnable situation. It speaks volumes that, even after throwing away 50 supply in units that Leta was still ahead of Flash for the position he was in.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, you just mentioned it in several posts even when it was just one in a long list of things. It's a really easy to pick out one, sure, but it is just one. I mean you yourself admitted that the roro and kal games were great comebacks, and if you can't refute anything but that ONE comeback vs Leta (like I said, he has others) then that's still a pretty big laundry list.
Haven't watched Flash vs. FBH, I should probably get on that.
Honestly, this is pretty clear that you don't know nearly enough about Flash to determine how crazy his career has been. That's very easily the most famous game of 2009 and arguably the most famous game of Flash's career (power outage probably wins that one). Like I said, high praises when flash says that's the greatest game he ever played.
That's alright, though. Not everyone can have some encyclopedic knowledge of Flash from having a huge devotion to him. That I do is why I feel like I CAN educate you on it.
I already commented on Flash vs. Kal and vs. Roro, and I did acknowledge that they were impressive comebacks. But hey, let's conveniently ignore that fact because obviously anyone who even slightly questions or criticizes any aspect of Flash's play is a blind Flash hater that isn't willing to accept his brilliance.
Whoa whoa whoa, pal, you're shoving all sorts of words in my mouth. Did I ever even call you a blind flash hater? Even slightly? I understand that you don't want to baselessly accept that Flash is well known for his comebacks. If I did I'd just call you dumb and move on like a mindless drone. I'm trying to convince you because you seem to not know, or atleast not remember, a whole lot of Flash's career in regards to this topic.
If you wanted to actually learn about the issue of Flash's games, wouldn't you want someone who has not only watched every game Flash has played, but knows a whole lot about them? There's nothing wrong about not being a fan of Flash and I'll never say there is, so don't be so offended. I really, really don't want to offend you here.
I disagree. Many of the games you mentioned aren't really examples of "amazing comebacks" but are just games that were incredibly close, tense back and forth games (Flash vs. Fantasy series, for example). If anything, Jaedong is far more famous for always playing incredibly tense games where it always looks like he's hanging by a thread. In the case of Flash, for every close game that he plays, there are 5 games where he just roflstomps his opponent. Maybe Flash's best comeback is better than that of other players, but that doesn't make him the king of comebacks.
Um, what? Jaedong is the most amazing zerg ever but he is not known for crazy comebacks. I saw your list of games earlier in the thread and the only two of those that count as comebacks are the ones vs Baby and Snow. Jaedong has an absolutely insane winrate, but not nearly as many comebacks. I think that's partly to do with the races they both play. I'd say Terran's defensive nature lends itself to staying in a game longer after taking a heavy blow -- it speaks volumes that a whole shitton of Flash's comebacks are in TvT, for instance.
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NO FLASH NO PARTY
+ Show Spoiler +
Yodo hahahahahahhahahhahahahahaha!!!! DarkMatter_ Plz continue arguing
User was temp banned for this post.
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The best Flash games are Bisu vs Flash on Monty Hall.
And his elimination at the hands of GGplay on Plasma.
I still smile thinking about those games.
But in the end, Terran is just a bullshit race.
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jesus you people are obnoxious, games were great though
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On March 26 2011 03:57 ExquisiteRed wrote:
jesus you people are obnoxious
I only hope we can live up to your example.
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Internet fight has come to a decision via a stoppage in the 41st page by referee ExquisiteRed.
The winner is Kal
Because I love him so.
But Baby did have an all-out amazng game here V Flash.
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TwoToneTerran, I should point out that not everything I've posted was meant to be a response to you specifically. If you look at some of the posts made by other Flash fans, you'll see why I said some of the things that I did.
Also, you mentioned how I've only addressed a few of the games that you brought up as examples of Flash's comebacks. That's because those few are some of the only games that actually involve legitimate comebacks. How on earth were Flash vs. Zero or Flash vs. Calm examples amazing comebacks by Flash? They were just amazing games (although as a zerg player, the vs. Zero game left a bad taste in my mouth). Like I said, if you want to bring up any game that manages to be long, close and tense and call that an amazing comeback, I can find find dozens of games by JD that fit that criteria. I already told you that I don't think JD is the king of comebacks either, but all I'm saying is that based on your loose criteria, he might as well be considered one. Jaedong is far more notable for being involved in extremely close games (and winning a good chunk of them). If you don't believe me, I can post a whole bunch of examples.
The games I posted by JD were much better examples of comebacks since they actually involve JD having a major deficit/disadvantage and overcoming it.
BTW, I watched Flash vs. FBH and it was a pretty outrageous game, definitely one of the best comebacks. I don't think it should be compared to Boxer vs. joyo because they were both jaw dropping in different ways, although Flash's comeback was a superior display of amazing skill.
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The Flash vs Zero game was kind of a gross comeback, but a comeback none the less. And the Flash vs Calm game was absolutely a comeback -- I even remember the TL team doing a write up for it in their OSL analysis showing how much shit Flash was in before he pulled it off.
Thanks for trying to be reasonable though. Every group has their bad fans and I know I look like one a lot of the time with my big old honking posts that no one wants to read. I will persist that Flash's entire bonjwa run was predicated on his insane ability to win almost every game, even when he shouldn't have several times. It's fairly subjective and if you're not convinced yet then, hell, agree to disagree I guess.
And yeah, Flash vs FBH ruled.
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Look DarkMatter_ some people they tried to tell you are off topic this is a thread that flash played a game and full of flash fans arguing and mentioning other players will lead you to nowhere. Flash fans are smart enough not to follow you in your favorite player thread were we sure it happens nothing Sirius with the crap you write.
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Haha can't believe someone is trying to say Flash isn't much of a comeback player cause his opponents made mistakes. How the fuck do you come back from a losing position if your opponent doesn't make mistakes? Everything Joyo did in that game against Boxer was a fucking mistake if you think about it, he could have done like 80 things to ensure victory.
Also love how you don't bother to watch one of the greatest games ever played (Flash vs FBH, ranked #2 proleague game of all time) and continue to argue. Yeah the Leta game was a ridiculous blunder by Leta, what about the other Leta games? What about Flash vs Hwasin on Medusa (highly underrated comeback game)? Just go read LRs and see how many of them say "not even Flash can come back from this this time" into "how the fuck did he come back again?". The fact that it got to the point where people were saying "not even Flash can come back from this this time" should tell you how his play has been perceived.
Oh yeah, guess it wasn't his skill though just opponent's messing up?
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I finally had time to watch the VoDs of this series, thought game 7 was fantastic, and came straight here to find exactly what I expected:
On March 22 2011 22:33 Jackal03 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 22:20 Quarz wrote:On March 22 2011 20:36 a7choi wrote:
flash just wryly smiling knowing that baby knows he can never beat flash in a straight up game who cares. He has done what he has to do. We all know tha FLash is the best player. If you cant beat him straight up the cheese him. flash started his career by doing some incredible cheese to take top players, nothing wrong in beating a player using cheese people don't understant that cheese is what makes the game good and unpredictable, if top players could win all the game by playing standard, there wouldn't be much competition
I just wanted to add that the possibility of cheese keeps top players honest. One of the reasons Flash is able to continue his streak of dominance is that he is constantly cheating towards macro openings, gets away with it because he's Flash, and then wins the game because he's brilliant at turning tiny advantages into wins by not making mistakes. Look at how many times out of his last 20 TvT games he's opened 14cc, as opposed to a more average pro like Sea or Light, or someone whose overall game is extremely variable, like Fantasy. Even in this game Flash looked like he was trying to go 14cc until he scouted no buildings... hence the slightly slow rax. Beating him "straight up" doesn't mean as much as you might think when "straight up" is a rax cc vs 14cc.
Baby probably saw that trend and decided to take advantage... which means that not only was his execution beautiful - the SCV/bunker micro had me yelling at my screen for joy - but his decision-making from start to finish was excellent. He earned that win, in as "straight up" a manner as anyone could reasonably ask, and I have to admit that I'd like to see Flash losing to cheese a bit more often so that we can see if his fantastic ability to avoid making minor mistakes in a long macro game can be converted into wins as easily if he doesn't have an advantage right from the start.
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EPT
