On March 25 2011 06:31 DarkMatter_ wrote: When I think of "jaw dropping comebacks", I think of a game like Boxer vs. joyo. In the minds of some Flash fans, it seems that any game where Flash wins after being in a bad/disadvantageous position qualifies as a jaw dropping comeback. If that's what qualifies as jaw dropping, I can post dozens of games by Jaedong where he makes "jaw dropping comebacks".
Wow, you consider what pretty much everyone acknowledges as the greatest comeback ever to be a jaw dropping comeback? That's pretty shocking.
Flash vs Kal:
The point is that for something to be considered a jaw dropping comeback, it has to involve two things: 1) The player that makes the comeback has to be in an extremely dire situation, merely having a disadvantage doesn't count. 2) The comeback should largely be the result of the player showing some amazing play, which could involve great micro, an amazing timing attack, some incredible defense etc. When a player wins after his opponent suicides almost his entire army, that can't be considered an amazing comeback.
The Boxer vs. Joyo game just happens to be a good reminder of a comeback that perfectly meets those criteria.
Those games against Kal and Roro certainly meet that criteria and were pretty darn impressive. However, I still think that claiming Flash is the king of making jaw dropping comebacks is incredibly far fetched. I can find plenty of games by JD (for the record, I'm not claiming JD is the king of comebacks either) that are on par with those games as far as comebacks go.
Some games that come to mind: vs. Baby on Circuit Breakers. Loses his 3rd twice but still manages to win despite Baby playing extremely well the whole game. vs. jjonga on HBR. JD is contained in his base by a cannon rush with the forge blocking the choke. On top of that, he is forced to cancel his 2nd hatch when it's about halfway built. Finds the perfect timing to break the contain. Any sooner and he wouldn't have had enough units and any later, the contain would've become too strong. vs. free on Medusa. Goes for 1 hatch lurker which gets scouted as his lurkers are attacking the pyramids, but manages to find the perfect timing and position to place his lurkers. If his decision making was even slightly off or if he hesitated even for a few seconds, it would have been game over. vs. Clon on Sin Peaks of Baekdu. Drone gets stuck, which delays his gas and forces him to pull another drone to kill the drone that is stuck. Huge deal in ZvZ. vs. GoRush on Aztec. Loses ling battle and a bunch of lings get into his main with more streaming in + scourge keeping mutas busy. For about 2 whole minutes, Jaedong appears to be on the verge of dying but just barely manages to keep holding until GoRush runs out of steam. vs. Snow on Dante's Peak. On equal bases with Snow after losing a shitton of drones to Snow's harass and losing every single battle. Completely turns the game around with a double pronged attack combined with some extremely clutch defense.
On March 25 2011 06:31 DarkMatter_ wrote: When I think of "jaw dropping comebacks", I think of a game like Boxer vs. joyo. In the minds of some Flash fans, it seems that any game where Flash wins after being in a bad/disadvantageous position qualifies as a jaw dropping comeback. If that's what qualifies as jaw dropping, I can post dozens of games by Jaedong where he makes "jaw dropping comebacks".
You have the most backwards logic. All boxer did was win after being in a bad/disadvantageous position against Joyo, if you want to use your silly catchall. I bet you don't even know why the comeback Boxer did was so great. I could point to every game Flash makes a comeback on (All the ones mentioned here and no one has mentioned the Flash vs FBH on Neo Medusa game. If it's not the greatest comeback ever it's only second to Boxer vs Joyo for historical respect to Boxer, and no other reason), and all your insane criticisms would directly apply to Boxer.
Guess what? Joyo threw away a won game. Boxer played amazingly to get back into that game and win by the skin of his teeth. This has been Flash's MO ever since he played July in the Broodwar GSL in late 2009. Here's a list of things off the top of my head: Flash vs FBH, the entire Flash vs Fantasy series from the MSL(just watch it it is probably the best played TvT series ever, and second only to Oov vs Boxer for drama), Flash vs Kal, Flash vs Leta(there's multiple of them, pick almost any game flash won against Leta), Flash vs Mind, Flash vs Jaedong (Grandline edition), the entire Flash vs Movie series (Admittedly, movie was a bad PvTer using insanely good builds), Flash vs Zero on PR (people hate it because it's mech, tho), Flash vs Calm on Fighting Spirit (THIS GAME OWNS).
There are so many games I've pretty much forgot, I'm pretty sure Flash was in shitty situations against Pure in their OSL series at one point but I'm not absolutely sure since all I completely remember was Flash 3-0ing him.
I seriously want you to go fucking watch Flash vs FBH on Neo Medusa. After the game, Flash said it was the greatest game he's played in his entire career. You may dislike flash, you may be very critical of him, but you cannot possibly deny that in all of the assuredly amazing games he's put out that his greatest one isn't a great comeback. You may want to nitpick what is jawdropping or not, but how many jawdropping comebacks can you, personally, name that Boxer made in the course of a single game? The only thing you've mentioned is the Joyo game which is perfectly acceptable, but Flash has definitely got that beat so far.
This isn't some slight to Boxer. Boxer was far more amazing in ways completely different to being able to make crazy comebacks. But there's no freaking way you're so sure about this freaking topic.
On March 25 2011 12:43 SimonB wrote: Flash must have had half a dozen or more comebacks more impressive than Boxer vs. Joyo, but because that one's youtube video title says something like "Greatest comeback ever", people seem to think that's some sort of official greatest comeback ever.
Guess what? Joyo threw away a won game. Boxer played amazingly to get back into that game and win by the skin of his teeth. This has been Flash's MO ever since he played July in the Broodwar GSL in late 2009. Here's a list of things off the top of my head: Flash vs FBH, the entire Flash vs Fantasy series from the MSL(just watch it it is probably the best played TvT series ever, and second only to Oov vs Boxer for drama), Flash vs Kal, Flash vs Leta(there's multiple of them, pick almost any game flash won against Leta), Flash vs Mind, Flash vs Jaedong (Grandline edition), the entire Flash vs Movie series (Admittedly, movie was a bad PvTer using insanely good builds), Flash vs Zero on PR (people hate it because it's mech, tho), Flash vs Calm on Fighting Spirit (THIS GAME OWNS).
You can't seem to figure out the difference between a "jaw dropping comeback" vs. "an amazing close, long game that Flash won".
Notice how I didn't mention JD vs. Flash on Tau Cross? That was probably a far more more awesome and tense game than JD vs. Flash on Grandline considering one player didn't carelessly suicide a whole bunch of units (JD flies a bunch of overlords full of ultras and defilers straight into stimmed marines).
I just kind of want to repeat Flash vs FBH endlessly and sprinkle in some Flash vs Fantasy, Roro and Kal for flavor variety. I mean I'm glad you could pick out 1 game that might not fit your definition because Jaedong made a mistake (guess what Joyo made shittons of mistakes that game it's why he lost), but that's a giant list and I'm absolutely sure I've missed some.
You made a kneejerk statement about Boxer (understandable, we loves us some emperor), used the one game everyone and their mother has seen to support it and then don't name another one. I'm going to go out and say that I have most certainly not watched nearly enough Boxer games to determine if he was the comeback king of broodwar, but I'm pretty sure you haven't either or you'd have listed some by now. Atleast I know Flash pretty well, though. Almost as good as knowing Boxer, and I can definitely refute when someone says he doesn't make crazy comebacks. It's not his average games but he certainly does it with alarming frequency.
The last player I saw who could seemingly wrestle a win from a more incredibly desperate situation was GGplay. Now that man could stage a damn comeback.
There's a big difference mistakes and a HUGE blunder that costs you the game. More importantly, it's important to distinguish between blatant screwups vs. questionable decision-making (usually they're apparent only in hindsight). I didn't see anything in the Boxer vs. joyo game that is equivalent to the fuckup by Leta in his game against Flash on PR and to a lesser extent, the fuckup by JD against Flash on Grand Line. Usually, comebacks do depend on the opponent making some mistakes. Great comebacks are dependent on fully exploiting even the smallest mistakes by the opponents, but when the opponent just hands you the game, that's an entirely different matter.
Also, I think you need to read my posts more carefully because you seem to be questioning and refuting claims which I never made.
Since when did this become a debate about whether Boxer or Flash is better at comebacks? A couple of people were mentioning Flash vs. Leta on PR as an example of Flash's apparently jaw dropping comeback and I dismissed that and mentioned Boxer vs. joyo to point out what I consider is a proper example of a jaw dropping comeback. I never said Boxer is the king of comebacks. :/
You also seem to be under the impression that I claimed that Flash never made an impressive comeback. Or that I even dislike Flash... o_O I don't dislike Flash, I've praised him plenty of times. His fans are a different matter entirely though. From what I've gathered, this is what the average Flash fan believes: - Flash is unquestionably the greatest in every single aspect of BW. - When Flash loses, it's because he's not taking the game seriously (see LR threads for vs. JD on Polaris Rhapsody WCG Korea or vs. Calm on Benzene) - When a player wins against a non-Flash Terran, he only won because that Terran wasn't Flash (instead of giving credit to a player for pulling off some cool play Flash fans like to go on and on about how he only won because he played some nooby Terran that isn't Flash).
So yeah, don't confuse my dislike for Flash fanboys with dislike for Flash himself.
In other words DarkMatter_ you are under the impression that many people in the forum don’t really care how other players played against Flash? You maybe wright but this is point exactly.
1. Choose an aspect of Starcraft playing ability, e.g. "making comebacks", "having charisma", "being creative", "being dominant", "multitasking". Bonus points if this ability is something Flash is known for (e.g. "macro", "making comebacks"). 2. Arbitrarily designate an echelon of this ability (e.g. "jaw-dropping"). 3. Claim that this echelon was achieved by the bonjwas of the past or Bisu or Jaedong, but not by Flash. 4. When Flash fans argue otherwise, claim that while Flash may possess this ability to some degree, it cannot meet your chosen, subjective echelon. 5. If Flash fans provide specific arguments to the contrary, claim their invalidity with reference to "terran imba", "opponent made an error", "Flash made an error", "Flash turtle", "Flash too aggressive", "build order luck", etc. 6. Finish by claiming that Flash fanboys are annoying, preferably using a straw man argument.
On March 25 2011 18:47 okum wrote: A step by step guide to trolling Flash fans:
1. Choose an aspect of Starcraft playing ability, e.g. "making comebacks", "having charisma", "being creative", "being dominant", "multitasking". Bonus points if this ability is something Flash is known for (e.g. "macro", "making comebacks"). 2. Arbitrarily designate an echelon of this ability (e.g. "jaw-dropping"). 3. Claim that this echelon was achieved by the bonjwas of the past or Bisu or Jaedong, but not by Flash. 4. When Flash fans argue otherwise, claim that while Flash may possess this ability to some degree, it cannot meet your chosen, subjective echelon. 5. If Flash fans provide specific arguments to the contrary, claim their invalidity with reference to "terran imba", "opponent made an error", "Flash made an error", "Flash turtle", "Flash too aggressive", "build order luck", etc. 6. Finish by claiming that Flash fanboys are annoying, preferably using a straw man argument.
lol, nice May I add "7. Claim that Flash's domination is killing Starcraft"?
On March 25 2011 18:47 okum wrote: 1. Choose an aspect of Starcraft playing ability, e.g. "making comebacks", "having charisma", "being creative", "being dominant", "multitasking". Bonus points if this ability is something Flash is known for (e.g. "macro", "making comebacks").
You make it sound like I'm picking random aspects of Starcraft playing ability and criticizing him for it. Someone else called him a king at making jaw dropping comebacks, and I proceeded to question that. Oh right I forgot, Flash is the best at everything and only an idiot/troll would question that.
2. Arbitrarily designate an echelon of this ability (e.g. "jaw-dropping").
I gave a fairly clear criteria about what I consider to be an impressive comeback, and I acknowledged that a couple of the games mentioned met those criteria.
3. Claim that this echelon was achieved by the bonjwas of the past or Bisu or Jaedong, but not by Flash.
Read above.
4. When Flash fans argue otherwise, claim that while Flash may possess this ability to some degree, it cannot meet your chosen, subjective echelon.
Read above.
5. If Flash fans provide specific arguments to the contrary, claim their invalidity with reference to "terran imba", "opponent made an error", "Flash made an error", "Flash turtle", "Flash too aggressive", "build order luck", etc.
I mentioned his opponents making a blunder (Flash fans apparently can't comprehend that mistakes come in varying degrees) for a couple of the games. Every game where Flash made a comeback, his opponents made mistakes but I didn't use that as an excuse for that game against Roro, for example.
But ofcourse, it's just not possible that Flash wins a game because the opponent completely threw away his chance at winning the game. No, every single "comeback" is due to the perfectly orchestrated genius of Flash. Like that game against Leta, Flash is such a genius with his amazing star sense for building those turrets. Leta suiciding his entire army was all a part of Flash's perfect comeback strategy. god young ho so bonjwa!!
6. Finish by claiming that Flash fanboys are annoying
Well, yeah. Also, reading comprehension doesn't appear to be one of their strong suites.
In simple words DarkMatter_ have you ever thought that you TRUCETALIKING in a threat and knowone really cares what you thing? Weik up man they even made a guide out of you!
But ofcourse, it's just not possible that Flash wins a game because the opponent completely threw away his chance at winning the game. No, every single "comeback" is due to the perfectly orchestrated genius of Flash. Like that game against Leta, Flash is such a genius with his amazing star sense for building those turrets. Leta suiciding his entire army was all a part of Flash's perfect comeback strategy. god young ho so bonjwa!!
Dude, you keep mentioning one game: That's not even the only game where Flash staged a comeback against Leta, it's just the most recent one. Do you have anything to say about Flash vs FBH, or Flash vs Kal, or Flash vs Roro, or Flash vs Calm, or the Flash vs Fantasy series? These are all absolutely amazing games in their own right and it makes a nice booklet of comeback wins.
I just think it was wrong of you to say Flash isn't known for comebacks. He clearly is, moreso than any gamer in several years.
All this "Flash is good/not good" discussion is so redundant it has borderlined on trolling, because it's a horse that has been beaten to death so long ago in so many threads.
On March 25 2011 23:45 flip_a_coin wrote: In simple words DarkMatter_ have you ever thought that you TRUCETALIKING in a threat and knowone really cares what you thing? Weik up man they even made a guide out of you!
NO FLASH NO PARTY
Lol way to troll someone because his favorite player isn't flash like yours. We both clearly presented our sides of the argument and cannot agree. The bottom line here is that the comment "No Flash No Party" is simply not true.. There's plenty of other great players that are equally as entertaining as flash, and on plenty of instances can flat out-play the man (i.e. baby in this series). He's the best, sure, but he deosn't define starcraft nor terran players.
I'm tempted to get some popcorn, and sit down to watch this debate about comebacks. Lunch and a movie (of a sort). Wonder how long this is gonna last....
You shouldn't compare Flash and Boxer. From modern point of view, Boxer's play is awful. This game vs Joyo is like stupidest game I ever saw. There are kings of the past and kings of today, don't mix them.
You're missing the point. I'm not mentioning that one game to try and argue that Flash has never made great comebacks. I'm mentioning that one game because people keep insisting that when someone makes a comeback from a losing position, we shouldn't consider the circumstances that led to that comeback when deciding whether it's a "jaw dropping comeback" or not.....because every comeback involves the opponents making mistakes lololol so an opponent throwing his entire army away by flying 10 dropships over turrets is no different than an opponent that makes some questionable decisions which the other player perfectly capitalizes on to pull of an outstanding comeback because both games involve the losing player making mistakes to lose his advantage. Amazing logic.
That's not even the only game where Flash staged a comeback against Leta, it's just the most recent one. Do you have anything to say about Flash vs FBH, or Flash vs Kal, or Flash vs Roro, or Flash vs Calm, or the Flash vs Fantasy series
Haven't watched Flash vs. FBH, I should probably get on that. I already commented on Flash vs. Kal and vs. Roro, and I did acknowledge that they were impressive comebacks. But hey, let's conveniently ignore that fact because obviously anyone who even slightly questions or criticizes any aspect of Flash's play is a blind Flash hater that isn't willing to accept his brilliance.
I just think it was wrong of you to say Flash isn't known for comebacks. He clearly is, moreso than any gamer in several years.
I disagree. Many of the games you mentioned aren't really examples of "amazing comebacks" but are just games that were incredibly close, tense back and forth games (Flash vs. Fantasy series, for example). If anything, Jaedong is far more famous for always playing incredibly tense games where it always looks like he's hanging by a thread. In the case of Flash, for every close game that he plays, there are 5 games where he just roflstomps his opponent. Maybe Flash's best comeback is better than that of other players, but that doesn't make him the king of comebacks.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vhxt7.jpg)
