This man has been on fire. He has fought off hydra busts at impossible odds, overcome DT rushes and won the war on terrorists. With 2 consecutive all-kills against SK Telecom T1 and Woongjin Stars, the hype has been growing.
There has been a large push for him to be number 1 on the next power rank:
On March 19 2011 18:27 TwoToneTerran wrote: 1) Stats 2) Stats' stats 3) Flash
There have even been calls for him to be recognised as the best protoss ever!
On March 19 2011 14:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: Stats is the best protoss fuck anyone who says otherwise, jesus christ.
He has also however come under some harsh criticism.
On March 19 2011 15:03 Lightwip wrote: He's the only protoss I don't like.
Love him or hate him, the question on everybody's lips is: can Stats get a third consecutive all-kill? ...... ...... ..... ..... ..... ..... ...... ..... + Show Spoiler +
NO!!!! Because WeMade have this man, RorO, who will destroy the hopes and dreams of KT fans after their hero comes agonisingly close.
He will then proceed to annihilate the remaining out-of-condition scrubs on KT. And I will laugh ahahaha.
On March 22 2011 15:38 Vasoline73 wrote: Think Baby or Mind will probably deny the Stats AK this time, but a 4th would seriously prove something in my mind. Stats fighting! KT fighting!
As much as I would love that, I would rather like roo or action being sent out first, or barracks. I like it when the rooks play and action plays cool :D
Action just hydra breaks into a victory. Well....it was fun while it lasted. Can do probably a lot better next time. Worth the speculative look seeing how Pure has been performing and Lucifer being well...Lucifer.
On March 22 2011 18:23 Elefanto wrote: whats up with zerg, seeing so many hydra busts recently, even compared to the past it's getting a bit much lol...
They got tired of losing to zealots while trying to play economical long games. They're teaching the Protoss a lesson, making them afraid of the Zerg again.
Well there was a lonely templar watching the destruction. But he had no storm/no energy. So he went for a walk up and down the ramp and then decided to end his stormless life.
On March 22 2011 18:24 Archers_bane wrote: what happened first game? someone wanna summarize it please
Action's 5 Hatch Hydras perfectly countered Wuk's 2 Base Templar Tech Wuk failed to snipe Overlords, so DTs were no counter His HT didn't have energy at that timing window gg
EDIT: It also didn't help that Wuk's additional cannons were late. He should've recognized the early OL speed as signs of an early timing window push/break.
Action heads out with a group of lings. He decides to wait outside Roro's nat. He sneaks 3 lings into the main while attacking with the rest of his lings. They die before killing anything. Mutas come out. Roro scores an overlord kill before the muta fight. Both players trade most of their armies, but Action seems to be slightly ahead.
Action landed a few scourge, but it seems like Roro had more Mutas because he came out ahead Meanwhile they trade lings and Action came out decisive winner in that
Both players sneak lings into each others' mains as they engage in the air. Roro snipes a few drones, while Action kills almost nothing. Looks like Roro landed more scourge in that fight, putting him ahead. both in drone and muta count.
Both players engage again with a couple groups of muta and scourge. Action flies too close and has to retreat, getting chased down by Roro, who lands many free hits while scourge chase the muta. Action ggs after losing most of his muta.
Exchanged air patrols, Roro seemed to have gotten the better of that one Both send lings to attack in the meantime Action gets more in, but Roro is quick to shut them down with Mutas On the other hand, Roro only gets 4 lings in but they wreck considerable havoc
On March 22 2011 18:45 Musou wrote: Given that the next map is Bloody Ridge, I can't see anyone but Stats playing. There's no way they're sending Flash on such a terrible Terran map.
Well, TvZ is okay on that map and after that there's no Terran-unfriendly maps.
Terrible decision-making from Action there at that second-last engagement.
After pulling back from the aerial encounter, he sends his dwindled muta forces to harass the nat, only to run himself into a bunch of scourge.
Meanwhile, Roro is like half a screen away, mopping up the 6 lings Action ran.
He realizes nothing is going to come out of this, but too late - Roro has already sent his own 4 lings into Action's main and does more with 2 less lings because Action didn't think his opponent was smart enough to run lings by himself.
On March 22 2011 18:45 Musou wrote: Given that the next map is Bloody Ridge, I can't see anyone but Stats playing. There's no way they're sending Flash on such a terrible Terran map.
Well, TvZ is okay on that map and after that there's no Terran-unfriendly maps.
I wasn't aware 3-8 in official and 5-10 in all matches was considered decent.
On March 22 2011 18:45 Musou wrote: Given that the next map is Bloody Ridge, I can't see anyone but Stats playing. There's no way they're sending Flash on such a terrible Terran map.
Well, TvZ is okay on that map and after that there's no Terran-unfriendly maps.
I wasn't aware 3-8 in official and 5-10 in all matches was considered decent.
But to be frank all the Terran who lost TvZ on that map were quite terrible.
On March 22 2011 18:47 hirosue2 wrote: hey TL.net admins, pls , i will do not stream share with Scan anymore, im so many streamming on everydays..
im streamming for bw users, and for enjoy.
i didnt know about scan's problem about TL.Net.
plz.... take my stream to featured again.. !
Agree - make this guy featured again. He's a good BW player who streams progaming as well. We can do without the constant SC2 stream patrol.
So what's the deal about this scan guy? Why did he get his stream removed from featured anyway?
Apparently Scan was a cheater in TSL
and hirosue let him stream some games
Personally I think that's ludicrous. hirosue didn't know, had no reason to know, and you're punishing him for something somebody else did. What Scan did in TSL should've been dealt with in TSL. Not elsewhere.
Roro attacking with a few lings and hydras, going for an early bust. Stats throwing down a third cannon as the hydra kill a pylon and begin working on the front gate.
Stats adds more games at his nat and main, increasing his count to 5 as zealot speed completes. Stats moves out with a control group of zealots, trading a few for hydra.
Roro moves in with a couple control groups of hydra. Stats sends zealots to tank the damage, but he loses most of them and there is still a control group of hydra remaining. Stats pulls probes, but there are far too many hydra. Stats ggs.
On March 22 2011 18:47 hirosue2 wrote: hey TL.net admins, pls , i will do not stream share with Scan anymore, im so many streamming on everydays..
im streamming for bw users, and for enjoy.
i didnt know about scan's problem about TL.Net.
plz.... take my stream to featured again.. !
Agree - make this guy featured again. He's a good BW player who streams progaming as well. We can do without the constant SC2 stream patrol.
So what's the deal about this scan guy? Why did he get his stream removed from featured anyway?
Apparently Scan was a cheater in TSL
and hirosue let him stream some games
Personally I think that's ludicrous. hirosue didn't know, had no reason to know, and you're punishing him for something somebody else did. What Scan did in TSL should've been dealt with in TSL. Not elsewhere.
Ah well that just seems a bit petty, i think hirosue should get his featured stream back since he had no idea and if he agrees to just don't share anymore.
Stats went with a build that would only work if Roro had decided to be greedy after his inital 3 Hatch Hydra attack, and Roro went the exact opposite. Nice try Stats, but you should've just rushed the Templar Archives
I felt nauseated when Stats pushed out with those zeals, I knew he wouldn't be able to hold the bust. He skimped too much on cannons too. Disappointing, really. Especially considering he scouted it.
Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
This may turn out bad for KT, they'll probably have to send Flash anyway and then WeMade can use Mind and Midas to tire him with long TvT and then Baby, hoping to finish this off.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
You're just hating 'cos he all killed your team with Bisu in it.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
Won't anyone with 3 AKs be overhyped? even against SKT?
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
I think Stats trying to call a bluff that Roro would only fake a hydra bust after being scouted so he didn't make mass emergency canons. Roro was like "fuck it, I'm going in anyways".
Without a sair he can't tell if Roro was really making more hydras or not. He gambled that Roro would drone up after being scouted.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
To be honest, SKT played pretty bad. The most fitting word for Stats would be "solid" because I haven't seen anything impressive from him but his stats. + Show Spoiler +
Also all the puns about him are awful, including this one.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
To be honest, SKT played pretty bad. The most fitting word for Stats would be "solid" because I haven't seen anything impressive from him but his stats. + Show Spoiler +
Also all the puns about him are awful, including this one.
Not you too, Lightwip. I know you dislike him, but don't you find his spell usage & unit control impressive?
Roo heads out with his first 4 lings, spots the lings at Roro's nat, and immediately drops a sunken behind his nat hatch as he retreats. Roro looking to go for a ling bust while the spires build.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
To be honest, SKT played pretty bad. The most fitting word for Stats would be "solid" because I haven't seen anything impressive from him but his stats. + Show Spoiler +
Also all the puns about him are awful, including this one.
Not you too, Lightwip. I know you dislike him, but don't you find his spell usage & unit control impressive?
Not really. I don't think it's so good that it sets him apart from any other players, like Jangbi's storms or Stork's carriers etc.
I think it has been a nice move by the kt coaches to send out two mediocre players in order to give them some on-stage experience. they can't really lose a lot, they have their first spot in WL secured and flash as a back-up.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
let me guess, someone has stats in their fpl anti-team?
I guess either Roro or Shine will take the win home for FOX. Baby can not be considered because Flashs TvT is just ridiculous imbalanced in favor of Flash :D I mean 75 percent win rate and current streak +16 !!
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
let me guess, someone has stats in their fpl anti-team?
no? i got flash in my anti-team so Chintoss losing is bad for me. I guess Flash is now doing the usual reverse-3-kill.
I think its funny how everyone is hating on me. Remember last WL? Stats was soo good. Then he got rolled in MSL Ro8 by JD. It was a fucking disaster.
lol flash could be so much more badass if he didn't do so many goofy things like: puff out his cheeks when he drinks spam go 30 times before a match starts use a ruler to measure the distance of his keyboard from his screen
On March 22 2011 19:36 radialis wrote: lol flash could be so much more badass if he didn't do so many goofy things like: puff out his cheeks when he drinks spam go 30 times before a match starts use a ruler to measure the distance of his keyboard from his screen
or he could just not give a fuck because he owns you anyway. :D
On March 22 2011 19:36 radialis wrote: lol flash could be so much more badass if he didn't do so many goofy things like: puff out his cheeks when he drinks spam go 30 times before a match starts use a ruler to measure the distance of his keyboard from his screen
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
let me guess, someone has stats in their fpl anti-team?
On March 22 2011 19:36 radialis wrote: lol flash could be so much more badass if he didn't do so many goofy things like: puff out his cheeks when he drinks
He does that because Pocari Sweat twitches his face. Goofy Flash is fine. Perfect rival for the Tyrant JD.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
let me guess, someone has stats in their fpl anti-team?
no? i got flash in my anti-team so Chintoss losing is bad for me. I guess Flash is now doing the usual reverse-3-kill.
I think its funny how everyone is hating on me. Remember last WL? Stats was soo good. Then he got rolled in MSL Ro8 by JD. It was a fucking disaster.
that that you are getting defensive and are comparing him to bisu shows that you are infact threatened by him and therefore lashing out that he is a bad player.
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
let me guess, someone has stats in their fpl anti-team?
no? i got flash in my anti-team so Chintoss losing is bad for me. I guess Flash is now doing the usual reverse-3-kill.
I think its funny how everyone is hating on me. Remember last WL? Stats was soo good. Then he got rolled in MSL Ro8 by JD. It was a fucking disaster.
Um, we know Stats isn't S class. That's why it's so awesome when he does back to back all kills.
On March 22 2011 19:36 radialis wrote: lol flash could be so much more badass if he didn't do so many goofy things like: puff out his cheeks when he drinks
He does that because Pocari Sweat twitches his face. Goofy Flash is fine. Perfect rival for the Tyrant JD.
it sucks cos it always looks like JD is so focused and tries so hard in his matches only to get beaten or made to look bad by some idiot who looks like a puffer fish
On March 22 2011 19:06 SkytoM wrote: Thank god Chintoss got Chinned. Every Year in WL, this guy gets overhyped. HE is just bad, guys. Bisu is not S-Class either just because he did 3 Allkills. He is S-Class because he is really so damn good. (or was, only his ZvP is S-Class now)
let me guess, someone has stats in their fpl anti-team?
no? i got flash in my anti-team so Chintoss losing is bad for me. I guess Flash is now doing the usual reverse-3-kill.
I think its funny how everyone is hating on me. Remember last WL? Stats was soo good. Then he got rolled in MSL Ro8 by JD. It was a fucking disaster.
that that you are getting defensive and are comparing him to bisu shows that you are infact threatened by him and therefore lashing out that he is a bad player.
What? I even dissed on Bisu as well, because i'm not quite sure how good he is really now.. he had some good results, but always looked shady to me(i mean bisu )
I'm not getting defensive at all.
@the guy who said "you're one of those". My Fantasy PL was just a fun project, Flash gives the exact amount of points an anti-team needs, and i hoped he would maybe crash or KT wouldn't need him (i.e. if violet/stats/action do some results), but i guess was wrong.. i'm only place 1xx.
Flash loses a few marines to some stop lurkers in the middle. Mutas snipe a tank as it retreats toward marines. Flash kills off every muta with his next group of marines and chases down lurkers heading for a bust.
Roro sneaking around Flash's army to attack his nat as Flash attacks into Roro's main. Roro loses everything but a few lurkers to amazing defense as Flash pushes into his nat. Flash is taking down everything Roro has! His lurkers in Flash's main aren't doing enough damage! Flash has this!
On March 22 2011 19:47 Vasoline73 wrote: Wayyyyy. Toooooo. Closeeeeee.
That was not close at all. Roro only had 3-4 lurkers left in Flash's main after that spectacular defense, while Flash had a full army wrecking Roro's base.
I suppose Roro played so bad during this game, because he was either tired from the previous two games he played, or he was to intimidated by the final boss.
that was really commendable effort from roro. he parkd his lurkers at the factories so any tanks that would come out would instantly die to lurkers. too bad he forgot to snipe the comsats though or flash would have been in deep shit right there. also he shouldnt have wasted money on building the hive, he should have just went all in
On March 22 2011 19:47 Vasoline73 wrote: Wayyyyy. Toooooo. Closeeeeee.
That was not close at all. Roro only had 3-4 lurkers left in Flash's main after that spectacular defense, while Flash had a full army wrecking Roro's base.
This.
Flash defended an entire control group of lurkers backed with lings with a bunker, 2 tanks and a handful of rines.
Meanwhile his entire army sat on top of Roro until his Siege Tanks killed off the Sunkens and he went in for the win.
Still got me worried for a sec though, because the trend of KT's losses today seem to be 1. KT player in comfortable position / with an advantage 2. Roro telepathically forces said KT player to choke 3. Epic fail from KT player ensues 4. ??? 5. Roro wins
Flash just seemed to be on top of things from start to end. Stopped lurkers is cute, but you can't split your forces up like that against a Terran that strong.
On March 22 2011 19:50 a7choi wrote: come on flash! you can do this. and after this game, let's take the most wins title away from bisu
Flash is 3 games behind Bisu at the moment with 42-6 to Bisu's 45-12. He can't take it from Bisu this round even with a 3 kill. He'll still be 1 game behind.
On March 22 2011 19:50 a7choi wrote: come on flash! you can do this. and after this game, let's take the most wins title away from bisu
Flash is 3 games behind Bisu at the moment with 42-6 to Bisu's 45-12. He can't take it from Bisu this round even with a 3 kill. He'll still be 1 game behind.
But at the same time, even if he loses, his win-loss difference is still better than Bisu's :D
On March 22 2011 19:49 mnesthes wrote: Roro was mindfucked with a fake Valkonic, but tbh I was a bit worried with Lurkers got into Flash's main.
Flash was never going to lose from that. If anything, that was a desperation attack from Roro - he realized that his Mutalisks didn't pay off and Flash had him by the throat with his trademark 3rd base denial.
This is just a variation of his standard 2Hatch Muta counter, the variation being that he fakes 2Port Wraith. Standard Ebay timing into perfect Turret placement --> 2Fact/4Rax going for a contain while getting Starport and Vessels.
Bonus: check out Flash's control at that attack - he evacs the rines out of the bunker the moment the two lurkers sitting there unburrow. That's the only reason those two lurkers died behind the nat mineral line JUST IN TIME before Flash's last marine died.
On March 22 2011 19:56 hauton wrote: Bonus: check out Flash's control at that attack - he evacs the rines out of the bunker the moment the two lurkers sitting there unburrow. That's the only reason those two lurkers died behind the nat mineral line JUST IN TIME before Flash's last marine died.
oh please, that was because roro decided to ignore those 4 marines when he was running in. if roro decided to snipe them with his lings he would be so much better off
Mind opening rax-fac and sending his scv to scout around even though he's already found Mind. Mind finally spots Flash's base. He sends a marine down as he slowly floats his rax over and starts his expo.
Marine and SCV back off as they are chased by 2 marines and Flash starts his bunker at the nat. First vulture for Mind kills off Flash's scouting SCV and heads down toward Flash's base.
Mind pushes out with his first tank as their vultures duel for control. Mind brings a marine to help damage the vulture, but loses his vulture anyway. Mind takes a few potshots at Flash's bunker, but backs off. Flash heads out with speed vults while Mind is moving around with his tanks that don't have siege yet.
Mind bunkering up outside Flash's base, going for a contain. He loses both tanks to vultures and one of Flash's own tanks. Flash killing off everything outside his base with minimal losses.
Flash sniping mines with his vultures as they are laid, chases down some of Mind's vultures, and then sieges/mines up outside Mind's nat, setting up a wide contain. Both players engage. Flash sieges on the high ground as his vultures engage. A good scan from Mind allows him to take down a couple of Flash's tanks in 1 shot. Flash retreats, but a vulture snipes his remaining tank.
Flash with fresh reinforcements sieges up on the high ground again. He takes his third at the 3' while a dropship from Mind flies down toward his nat with a vulture drop. The drop gets cleaned up without killing much of anything. A couple vultures from Mind raid the 3', killing the SCV. Mind attempts to take his min-only third at the inner 11, but Flash's tanks take it down with siege before Mind can cancel. Mind attempts to kill Flash's tanks, but gets sniped by vultures.
Mind loses everything at his min-only as Flash brings goliaths up as well and many tanks. Flash is moving up into Mind's nat. He doesn't even care about the mines and just runs right over them. Mind's 3 wraiths take some shots at Flash's tanks, driving him back.
Flash pulls some SCVs to repair his tanks being attacked by the wraiths as he retreats to the center of the map. His third is now fully up and running. A couple vultures from Mind attempt to raid the 3' but get killed after only a couple kills. Flash brings some goliaths to drive off the wraiths as Mind sieges up outside his nat near a minefield.
Flash pushes up toward Mind's tanks. He doesn't even care. Flash has his own wraith but it gets sniped by Mind's cloaked wraiths. A scan and a few goliaths kill off a couple wraiths and drive off the rest. Flash pushes forward once again toward Mind's unbuilt min-only.
Mind's vulture raid does some decent damage at Flash's third, but he's still way behind. Mind finally gets his third up and running, but Flash is waiting at his doorstep. Mind starts taking his 4th at the 12', but Flash already took the 7'. Flash sieges up on the high ground again, getting free shots on Mind's CC.
On March 22 2011 20:13 kuroshiroi wrote: Quick gg, weird.
Mind was so far behind it would have just been a slow death. In every battle he was losing more units than he was killing, Flash had a third up long before he did, with extra gas since he went for the 3' semi-island instead of the min-only, and got a 4th up and running around the time he got his third.
On March 22 2011 20:13 kuroshiroi wrote: Quick gg, weird.
He was losing his 3rd for the second time before his 4th was halfway done While Flash had his 3rd earlier, held his 3rd against 20 vulture harass attempts and was building his 4th uncontested
On March 22 2011 20:13 kuroshiroi wrote: Quick gg, weird.
Mind was so far behind it would have just been a slow death. In every battle he was losing more units than he was killing, Flash had a third up long before he did, with extra gas since he went for the 3' semi-island instead of the min-only, and got a 4th up and running around the time he got his third.
I know that. I still would've thought he would try to tire Flash out. But I guess he had no units left.
On March 22 2011 20:13 kuroshiroi wrote: Quick gg, weird.
He was losing his 3rd for the second time before his 4th was halfway done While Flash had his 3rd earlier, held his 3rd against 20 vulture harass attempts and was building his 4th uncontested
it should've been gg a while ago
Its still weird cause mind is known for notoriously bad gg timing and dragging out games lol
On March 22 2011 20:13 kuroshiroi wrote: Quick gg, weird.
Mind was so far behind it would have just been a slow death. In every battle he was losing more units than he was killing, Flash had a third up long before he did, with extra gas since he went for the 3' semi-island instead of the min-only, and got a 4th up and running around the time he got his third.
I know that. I still would've thought he would try to tire Flash out. But I guess he had no units left.
He was obviously saving us viewers from having to sit through a long, painful, and pointless game! Honestly, though, he probably just had nothing left and Flash wouldn't really get tired out from just producing units and a-moving into Mind's base.
Flashs decision-making and execution is so amazing. It's like a perfect symphony, behind every decision there is a statistical probability which very rarely fails to give positive outcome.
On March 22 2011 20:13 kuroshiroi wrote: Quick gg, weird.
He was losing his 3rd for the second time before his 4th was halfway done While Flash had his 3rd earlier, held his 3rd against 20 vulture harass attempts and was building his 4th uncontested
it should've been gg a while ago
Its still weird cause mind is known for notoriously bad gg timing and dragging out games lol
4-1, guess which way. Baby did take out Flash fairly recently but that was during his Ace match slump. This will most likely be another one-sided rape, unfortunately.
Flash scouts around a bit for some proxies, but doesn't see it and heads down toward Baby's base. From the minimap, it looks like he has a rax in construction at his base. Flash spots the lack of any buildings in Baby's main and takes a look around. Flash sends a second SCV out to check and spots the 2 marines heading toward his base!
On March 22 2011 20:23 Scaramanga wrote: Is anyone else from aus getting pretty bad lag with the streams? for some reason in the past weeks livestream hasn't liked me
It was perfect until about half an hour ago for me, I can't watch anymore. Keep up the good work with the LR guys!
Flash gets a bunker up in his main next to his rax as Baby's marines sit outside his base with an SCV. He starts a fac as Baby bunkers up. outside Flash's base and starts a proxy rax. Flash attacks just before the bunker finishes, sniping 2 marines for 1!
Flash answers to the proxy barracks with a bunker in his base. BaBy replies and throws down a proxy bunker along with a proxy factory to attempt to contain Flash.
Flash scouts Baby's base again and spots a starport being built in the choke. He lifts his rax and scouts around. Baby starts researching something at his machine shop, but cancels it. Flash moves out with a siege tank and many SCVs to take down the bunker. He fails to kill the bunker because of repair and a tank that pops!
Flash tries for a second time, this time with 2 tanks, and a vulture to snipe the scvs. The bunker is burning and a wraith is heading up toward Flash's base. A marine gets into the bunker. Flash repairs his tanks and tries again. He kills the bunker and a tank, but the tanks are already sieged outside Flash's base. He takes down a tank and blocks the contain, but baby is producing more tanks. Flash is losing a lot of SCVs for this!
Baby pushing forward with a single siege tank and bunkering outside Flash's main again Flash kills off a tank with some goliaths, but can't reach the single wraith spotting for Baby's tank.
Flash almost breaks contain by pulling alot of SCVs but the reinforcing tanks and wraiths from BaBy secure the contain once again. Flash ponders the situation, clearly disappointed. GG.
On March 22 2011 20:33 Musou wrote: Flash moves out with 5-6 goliaths and takes down the tanks, but a bunker goes up and the wraiths are still alive! Flash ggs!
Spoiler! hirosue2's stream is 30 seconds behind....
why was flash so hellbent on breaking the contain? should've waited till he was confident he had enough shit instead of wasting so many units in multiple small attacks
On March 22 2011 20:36 radialis wrote: why was flash so hellbent on breaking the contain? should've waited till he was confident he had enough shit instead of wasting so many units in multiple small attacks
baby is so evil
Yeah, it made no sense at all. He even had 2 Factories to Baby's 1.
Did Baby had some epic SCV/Bunker micro? I'm not 100% sure but I think that's why flash wasn't able to snipe the repairing scvs (even tho he tried) in his first attack because Baby loaded/unloaded the focused scvs.
So rare to see Flash lose to a rush (into a contain). He usually has that creepy map-hack star sense. Well played from Baby. No point trying to engage Flash in a straight up game, as your odds of winning are so slim.
On March 22 2011 20:36 a7choi wrote: flash just wryly smiling knowing that baby knows he can never beat flash in a straight up game
I think that says more about what you're feeling than what's going inside Flash's head.
what goes on in his head then?? flash always gives that smile when he knows he could've won or made bad decisions that resulted in his loss. the last time he didn't smile like that was when tyson beat him but then he knew that map was heavily pvt favored
On March 22 2011 20:36 radialis wrote: why was flash so hellbent on breaking the contain? should've waited till he was confident he had enough shit instead of wasting so many units in multiple small attacks
baby is so evil
Yeah, it made no sense at all. He even had 2 Factories to Baby's 1.
Because if Baby gets enough tanks sieged up in that choke it becomes incredibly hard for flash to break it by ground. he was trying to keep the tank count low by sniping them, it was the bunkers that gave him trouble.
the trick was flash knew he had wairth as well and was in the dark for the unit composition so he went all goliathes sadly they die to tanks baby produced only 2 wairth that did nothing but scout !
Why are you whining? It was a TvT and it was exciting. You don't get to see that quite often. I think Flash will be starting the games in the near future thinking 'so, where is the proxy shit today?'
On March 22 2011 20:39 Darth Saros wrote: Why are you whining? It was a TvT and it was exciting. You don't get to see that quite often. I think Flash will be starting the games in the near future thinking 'so, where is the proxy shit today?'
He already sensed the proxy before Baby did it. He just made the wrong move once he actually got contained by trying to break the bunker with so few units.
On March 22 2011 20:36 radialis wrote: why was flash so hellbent on breaking the contain? should've waited till he was confident he had enough shit instead of wasting so many units in multiple small attacks
baby is so evil
Yeah, it made no sense at all. He even had 2 Factories to Baby's 1.
Because if Baby gets enough tanks sieged up in that choke it becomes incredibly hard for flash to break it by ground. he was trying to keep the tank count low by sniping them, it was the bunkers that gave him trouble.
The first attempt when he came out, he had only one tank. He should have waited a bit longer.
On March 22 2011 20:34 HopLight wrote: Seriously Flash, play standard you'll win 9/10 playing standard, this is how you lose.
top players must change their game every now and then, if they play standard every game they'll most likely loose (like when bisu was losing a lot cause he played standard every game, it became predictable)
On March 22 2011 20:38 Sawamura wrote: it's okay guys flash will get his revenge on baby with double rax proxy rush good game by the way .
Well last time Flash got cheesed, he promptly returned the favour with an absolute dismantling of Stork
I wouldn't be too worried.
And this sort of shows the limited argumentation of a lot of flash fans. Look for best player, reassure that best player stays the best. Best player loses? Keep claiming he is best. As if such arguments were even necessary to make. But in the eyes of the best player fanboy, they are, because that is all that their love is based upon.
On March 22 2011 20:39 Darth Saros wrote: Why are you whining? It was a TvT and it was exciting. You don't get to see that quite often. I think Flash will be starting the games in the near future thinking 'so, where is the proxy shit today?'
The loudest ones make the most noise. I enjoyed the game very much, it was one of the most intense TvTs for a while, and on top of that, the ace match!
Happy to see BaBy taking it home for WeMade, it would have been too sad if Flash just wiped the floor without a drop of sweat after being down 1-3 straight away. Nevertheless impressive as always by Flash in the previous games, he made Mind and RorO look like complete amateurs.
This reminds me of what Stork did to Flash, strategic snipe play with gates in the middle. Good strat by whoever came up with it at fox, pretty much the only way to beat Flash these days is with strategic play. Flash did roflstomp Stork when next they met, I'm sure he'll do the same to Baby. This match doesn't change anything, maybe it shows that Flash is somewhat weak to strategic builds but who wouldn't be if a whole team designs a strategy specifically for one player. I'm just hoping KT will win WL. KT fighting!
if flash intended to break the contain, he made a good decision on attempting to breaking early... otherwise.. if he tried to do something else then it was bad move.(possible dropship usage?)
i fail to understand 'wait for more unit' statement when baby had siege first. not to mention barrack for more marines, scv to make more bunkers.. + wraith to show further vision. which retard terran would try to break through small entrance?
On March 22 2011 20:34 a7choi wrote: WTF.. FUCK YOU BABY
is that really necessary?
No, it is not. Get that shit out of here.
I'm quite annoyed myself at the moment, but it's mostly about Flash's play. Baby did what he thought gave him the best chance to win, and he executed it really damn well. Props to him. Flash though, he didn't seem like Flash at all. He seemed completely clueless of how to deal with the situation. My extreme disappointment is probably due to the ridiculously high bar he has set for himself though. Hopefully (likely) it's just a one-off thing, and I expect Flash to crush Baby really hard next time they play.
On March 22 2011 20:38 Sawamura wrote: it's okay guys flash will get his revenge on baby with double rax proxy rush good game by the way .
Well last time Flash got cheesed, he promptly returned the favour with an absolute dismantling of Stork
I wouldn't be too worried.
And this sort of shows the limited argumentation of a lot of flash fans. Look for best player, reassure that best player stays the best. Best player loses? Keep claiming he is best. As if such arguments were even necessary to make. But in the eyes of the best player fanboy, they are, because that is all that their love is based upon.
All fans are like that, they find silver linings and things to reassure themselves when their favourite player loses. It doesn't "show the limited argumentation of a lot of flash fans". You're just trying to bend this to fit a point you've been saving for when Flash loses. I'm sorry but if you're trying to attack Flash fans please pick on something else instead.
On March 22 2011 20:34 a7choi wrote: WTF.. FUCK YOU BABY
is that really necessary?
lol good job finding my post twice to reply to it twice. anyways i was angry with flash's play. and now kt is tied with skt. so i was just caught up in the moment but everyone does -_-
On March 22 2011 20:51 GBataille wrote: Man great game from baby <3 But why is Flash always smiling condescendingly whenever he loses...? Looks a bit douchbagy imo. :/
Because he is preparing for revenge every time he got cheesed. An example is Stork proxy gating with double gas steal to win then got semi-cheesed/cheesed to a contain by flash the next time they met.
On March 22 2011 20:38 Sawamura wrote: it's okay guys flash will get his revenge on baby with double rax proxy rush good game by the way .
Well last time Flash got cheesed, he promptly returned the favour with an absolute dismantling of Stork
I wouldn't be too worried.
And this sort of shows the limited argumentation of a lot of flash fans. Look for best player, reassure that best player stays the best. Best player loses? Keep claiming he is best. As if such arguments were even necessary to make. But in the eyes of the best player fanboy, they are, because that is all that their love is based upon.
All fans are like that, they find silver linings and things to reassure themselves when their favourite player loses. It doesn't "show the limited argumentation of a lot of flash fans". You're just trying to bend this to fit a point you've been saving for when Flash loses. I'm sorry but if you're trying to attack Flash fans please pick on something else instead.
A lot of fans of best player make this sort of reassurance. Because they cannot accept anything less than domination over everyone, that is the central premise of their fandom. Which leads the argumentation over player to be about performance, scoreboard, shallow arguments, rather than personality set, setting and mood of player. Hence your claim of all fans doing that is an incorrect premise.
On March 22 2011 20:38 Sawamura wrote: it's okay guys flash will get his revenge on baby with double rax proxy rush good game by the way .
Well last time Flash got cheesed, he promptly returned the favour with an absolute dismantling of Stork
I wouldn't be too worried.
And this sort of shows the limited argumentation of a lot of flash fans. Look for best player, reassure that best player stays the best. Best player loses? Keep claiming he is best. As if such arguments were even necessary to make. But in the eyes of the best player fanboy, they are, because that is all that their love is based upon.
All fans are like that, they find silver linings and things to reassure themselves when their favourite player loses. It doesn't "show the limited argumentation of a lot of flash fans". You're just trying to bend this to fit a point you've been saving for when Flash loses. I'm sorry but if you're trying to attack Flash fans please pick on something else instead.
A lot of fans of best player make this sort of reassurance. Because they cannot accept anything less than domination over everyone, that is the central premise of their fandom. Which leads the argumentation over player to be about performance, scoreboard, shallow arguments, rather than personality set, setting and mood of player. Hence your claim of all fans doing that is an incorrect premise.
The use of the word hence implies that there is some sort of evidence or a cause that leads to a logical conclusion. However, what you wrote before that doesn't explain why my "claim" is disproven (not like I was using the denotative meaning of the word "all", I thought that was obvious).
In fact, I don't get what the preceding sentences have to do with anything. If we are talking about the caliber of a player, obviously we will have to point to performance, cold hard statistics and quality of play over personality, mood etc.
What happened is simple, Flash is undoubtly a very strong player who has an insane winrate currently. And guess what, with fans come haters. How many times have you seen TBLS or anyone really lose and not have seen posts saying :He will slump, he is no longer pro etc. Remember the entire shitstorm last time when Flash was taken out in the OSL/MSL? What in reality happened is that Baby did a sort of cheese(Proxy rax into contain). He executed it nicely I am not talking about that, but this leads to arguments all over.
On March 22 2011 20:36 a7choi wrote: flash just wryly smiling knowing that baby knows he can never beat flash in a straight up game
who cares. He has done what he has to do. We all know tha FLash is the best player. If you cant beat him straight up the cheese him.
flash started his career by doing some incredible cheese to take top players, nothing wrong in beating a player using cheese
people don't understant that cheese is what makes the game good and unpredictable, if top players could win all the game by playing standard, there wouldn't be much competition
Good job by BaBy to salvage a win in a situation where most wouldn't. Fox really needs some new players or transfers.
KT fans being irritating as fuck again. As if Flash doesn't cheese lol. Not only that but it was scouted and Flash played badly. Plus BaBy is definitely good enough to beat Flash straight up and has done it before, and the games he lost were close.
Don't know why anybody is asking whether Flash is still the best player or not considering that he's 97 ELO points ahead of #2. Over the past ~3 months nobody else has shown his level of consistency. Other than having a weak month in December he's looked borderline invulnerable.
On March 23 2011 01:35 Mortality wrote: Don't know why anybody is asking whether Flash is still the best player or not considering that he's 97 ELO points ahead of #2. Over the past ~3 months nobody else has shown his level of consistency. Other than having a weak month in December he's looked borderline invulnerable.
Yeah, Bisu / Stork are just too inconsistent to ever get near Flash. And well, Jaedongs spring slump seems to end, so i hope at least he'll come close again.
On March 22 2011 20:36 a7choi wrote: flash just wryly smiling knowing that baby knows he can never beat flash in a straight up game
Except he already beat Flash once in a straight up game.
Ugh, Flash fans are unbearable.
Come on man, out of over 50 posts there's been like 3 belligerent Flash fans, almost every other person in the thread either congratulated Baby or laughed it off. The cure to antagonism is not antagonism.
wow roro stepping it up for WMF for once (or maybe twice?)... they've been riding their T line too hard all of WL (well I guess Baby/Mind are their best players, but what have Roro/Shine been doing all this time...?)
sounds like baby's cheese was pretty good... I should watch!
and here we see a slight problem with KT: you know what 4 players they're gonna send every match -.-; I guess they have the options of hoejja/barracks/REACH/YELLOW/tempest? but they're all a cut below the top 3, and maybe a bit worse than perfective :/
After reading the LR of the ace match I decided to watch it for myself. Man, those were some incredibly poor decisions by Flash. I'm so confused about what he was thinking the entire time.
Personally I love how Flash manages to smile after his loss in the ace match. He doesn't seem deeply grieving about his loss, he took it almost ironically (maybe in hindsight to his ace curse?). He isn't too bitter about losing, and he doesn't care too much about not having the possibility to play at all (have you seen his heartily high-fives with stats after every match he won vs SKT and Stars). He seems so down-to-earth considering his recent domination and in that aspect so different from Savior whose arrogance arguably caused the immediate fall after the loss vs Bisu. I admire Savior greatly, and the controversy he brought to gaming (before his match fixing) and I find it amazing how players of such greatness can turn out so differently. It's like Lasker and Capablanca all over again (the first one decent and quiet, the other one inventing a bigger, more challenging version of chess during his career because he didn't feel challenged enough).
The Ruby vs Flash game was siiiiick! I still go back every so often to read the LR thread. Good stuff on Baby. I hope his win lifts the mood in the WMF house.
I thought to myself, "It would be awesome if WeMade could end WL with an upset," and they did just that. This will be a huge confidential boost to FOX, so I'm glad that they won! KT fans shouldn't complain anyway, come on, this was only KT's second loss. Ridiculous score right there. Accept the 2nd(!, only 2nd!) loss and move on.
Watching that game again I really think Flash shouldn't have let Baby get a bunker up outside his nat which, combined with the small choke, contained him. Also, considering the situation Flash could have gone for a 1port/2port cloaked wraith response. I didn't feel very bitterly after that loss, it's just his 17 TvT winstreak and 75% win rate having to end like that is a real pity, he didn't even put up a good fight. Oh well I hope they meet again in the OSL Ro36 which Flash will make Baby look like a Babo.
On March 23 2011 09:41 mnesthes wrote: Watching that game again I really think Flash shouldn't have let Baby get a bunker up outside his nat which, combined with the small choke, contained him. Also, considering the situation Flash could have gone for a 1port/2port cloaked wraith response. I didn't feel very bitterly after that loss, it's just his 17 TvT winstreak and 75% win rate having to end like that is a real pity, he didn't even put up a good fight. Oh well I hope they meet again in the OSL Ro36 which Flash will make Baby look like a Babo.
I don't think cloaked wraiths would have done that much. If he doesn't get his front broken, baby still had earlier wraiths due to flash's 2nd fact and would have scouted it very easily.
The bunker at the natural really took Flash by surprise. From every game I have seen people cheesing him, BaBy and Stork made Flash looks like any other terran out there. Flash, even with his maphack couldn't find a counter in time and made blunders. I want to see BaBy one day overcome his unconsistency and step up at the number 1 Terran.
On March 23 2011 09:41 mnesthes wrote: Watching that game again I really think Flash shouldn't have let Baby get a bunker up outside his nat which, combined with the small choke, contained him. Also, considering the situation Flash could have gone for a 1port/2port cloaked wraith response. I didn't feel very bitterly after that loss, it's just his 17 TvT winstreak and 75% win rate having to end like that is a real pity, he didn't even put up a good fight. Oh well I hope they meet again in the OSL Ro36 which Flash will make Baby look like a Babo.
Yeah I also felt that he should have pulled scvs and not allowed the bunker to go up in the first place. He would still have been behind (only having 1 marine to Baby's 2, and losing on mining time) but he wouldn't have gotten contained. alas its in the past, I'm sure he'll learn from this for next time.
Baby showed some beastly micro in that game. Two tanks and a wraith vs. 5 goliaths!? When Flash targeted the SCV, Baby hid him INSIDE the bunker, for a second, then out again to continue bunker repair! Also, I'm surprised Flash didn't break the contain. I guess that's what happens when you proxy factory + machine shop
Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
I don't know what you're talking about, there was a lot of nerdgasms from everyone except KT fans when Flash got knocked out of both leagues.
On March 23 2011 21:33 Emon_ wrote: Baby showed some beastly micro in that game. Two tanks and a wraith vs. 5 goliaths!? When Flash targeted the SCV, Baby hid him INSIDE the bunker, for a second, then out again to continue bunker repair! Also, I'm surprised Flash didn't break the contain. I guess that's what happens when you proxy factory + machine shop
O_O That was some of the most amazing micro I've ever seen. I didn't notice first time I saw the game. Holy shit.
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
Pretty sure the last OSL (which was awesome) begs to differ. Flash is the most consistently dominate player in Starcraft (except ofr of course maybe Bisu when he gets insanely hot), but come on man. No Flash No Party? Flash is great, and he will often have great games, but I don't find him THAT entertaining.. He's no Boxer who is constantly coming from behind, or a Fantasy who wins over fans with awesome builds. Flash is consistent, dominant, and all-around amazing, but Starcraft fans have plenty to cheer for when he's out, and when lesser-famous players like Baby outplay him, and outmicro him like that last game.
Baby did a great job. Wemade deserved that win because last time they played vs KT Flash managed to win vs Mind completely lost game. Even he himself was wondering how could I win this game?
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
Pretty sure the last OSL (which was awesome) begs to differ. Flash is the most consistently dominate player in Starcraft (except ofr of course maybe Bisu when he gets insanely hot), but come on man. No Flash No Party? Flash is great, and he will often have great games, but I don't find him THAT entertaining.. He's no Boxer who is constantly coming from behind, or a Fantasy who wins over fans with awesome builds. Flash is consistent, dominant, and all-around amazing, but Starcraft fans have plenty to cheer for when he's out, and when lesser-famous players like Baby outplay him, and outmicro him like that last game.
Flash is probably the single player with the most jaw dropping comebacks of anyone. Not really the right comparison between him and Boxer.
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
Pretty sure the last OSL (which was awesome) begs to differ. Flash is the most consistently dominate player in Starcraft (except ofr of course maybe Bisu when he gets insanely hot), but come on man. No Flash No Party? Flash is great, and he will often have great games, but I don't find him THAT entertaining.. He's no Boxer who is constantly coming from behind, or a Fantasy who wins over fans with awesome builds. Flash is consistent, dominant, and all-around amazing, but Starcraft fans have plenty to cheer for when he's out, and when lesser-famous players like Baby outplay him, and outmicro him like that last game.
Flash has amazing mechanics and very often comes back from BO disadvantages and even mid-game disadvantages. Also, iloveoov has a huge influence on Fantasy's builds and is a huge influence on Fantasy's play - something that is needed as Fantasy doesn't have Flash's mechanics and ability to straight-up outplay somebody from a disadvantage. Accordingly, Fantasy is famous for "his" builds because they are central to his success, whereas Flash is not famous for his builds since they are generally safe builds designed to survive the early game so that he can outplay his opponent in the mid and late games.
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
Pretty sure the last OSL (which was awesome) begs to differ. Flash is the most consistently dominate player in Starcraft (except ofr of course maybe Bisu when he gets insanely hot), but come on man. No Flash No Party? Flash is great, and he will often have great games, but I don't find him THAT entertaining.. He's no Boxer who is constantly coming from behind, or a Fantasy who wins over fans with awesome builds. Flash is consistent, dominant, and all-around amazing, but Starcraft fans have plenty to cheer for when he's out, and when lesser-famous players like Baby outplay him, and outmicro him like that last game.
Flash has amazing mechanics and very often comes back from BO disadvantages and even mid-game disadvantages. Also, iloveoov has a huge influence on Fantasy's builds and is a huge influence on Fantasy's play - something that is needed as Fantasy doesn't have Flash's mechanics and ability to straight-up outplay somebody from a disadvantage. Accordingly, Fantasy is famous for "his" builds because they are central to his success, whereas Flash is not famous for his builds since they are generally safe builds designed to survive the early game so that he can outplay his opponent in the mid and late games.
I am well aware, as well as everyone is, that iloveoov obviiusly aids fantasy with his builds. Flash does have absolutely outstanding play and can come back against players with lesser mechanics. I said that he is the consistently most dominant and outstanding player. I just completely disagree with the mindset some have. "No Flash No Party" makes no sense considering other extremely entertaining terran players who often press their luck more (baby, hiya) or use interesting builds (Fantasy).
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
Pretty sure the last OSL (which was awesome) begs to differ. Flash is the most consistently dominate player in Starcraft (except ofr of course maybe Bisu when he gets insanely hot), but come on man. No Flash No Party? Flash is great, and he will often have great games, but I don't find him THAT entertaining.. He's no Boxer who is constantly coming from behind, or a Fantasy who wins over fans with awesome builds. Flash is consistent, dominant, and all-around amazing, but Starcraft fans have plenty to cheer for when he's out, and when lesser-famous players like Baby outplay him, and outmicro him like that last game.
Flash is probably the single player with the most jaw dropping comebacks of anyone. Not really the right comparison between him and Boxer.
Post some of these "jaw dropping comebacks" please.
All I've seen are games where he overcomes some early setbacks. Impressive, but nothing "jaw dropping" about them, especially considering that most of the time, it's usually due to the other player choking and making some huge blunder.
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
Pretty sure the last OSL (which was awesome) begs to differ. Flash is the most consistently dominate player in Starcraft (except ofr of course maybe Bisu when he gets insanely hot), but come on man. No Flash No Party? Flash is great, and he will often have great games, but I don't find him THAT entertaining.. He's no Boxer who is constantly coming from behind, or a Fantasy who wins over fans with awesome builds. Flash is consistent, dominant, and all-around amazing, but Starcraft fans have plenty to cheer for when he's out, and when lesser-famous players like Baby outplay him, and outmicro him like that last game.
Flash has amazing mechanics and very often comes back from BO disadvantages and even mid-game disadvantages. Also, iloveoov has a huge influence on Fantasy's builds and is a huge influence on Fantasy's play - something that is needed as Fantasy doesn't have Flash's mechanics and ability to straight-up outplay somebody from a disadvantage. Accordingly, Fantasy is famous for "his" builds because they are central to his success, whereas Flash is not famous for his builds since they are generally safe builds designed to survive the early game so that he can outplay his opponent in the mid and late games.
I have to disagree with you there.
Flash often goes with the most greedy opening possible (14cc's against Jaedong, 1rax cc openers in TvP, TvT)
He then uses his superior mechanics to translate a small early game lead into a decisive victory.
In any case, his mid-late game management is strong enough to overcome most early game situations.
On March 24 2011 06:36 flip_a_coin wrote: Seriously I don’t understand some people Flash is a person that usually doesn’t do mistakes and if he feels he took the wrong decisions many times he may quit a game I’m sure he will give some thoughts to it and the next time will be more ready to face the same situation, this the beauty about it.
In the bottom line no Flash no party.
Pretty sure the last OSL (which was awesome) begs to differ. Flash is the most consistently dominate player in Starcraft (except ofr of course maybe Bisu when he gets insanely hot), but come on man. No Flash No Party? Flash is great, and he will often have great games, but I don't find him THAT entertaining.. He's no Boxer who is constantly coming from behind, or a Fantasy who wins over fans with awesome builds. Flash is consistent, dominant, and all-around amazing, but Starcraft fans have plenty to cheer for when he's out, and when lesser-famous players like Baby outplay him, and outmicro him like that last game.
Flash is probably the single player with the most jaw dropping comebacks of anyone. Not really the right comparison between him and Boxer.
Post some of these "jaw dropping comebacks" please.
All I've seen are games where he overcomes some early setbacks. Impressive, but nothing "jaw dropping" about them, especially considering that most of the time, it's usually due to the other player choking and making some huge blunder.
You are not even worth responding, maybe you should watch FLASH GAMES ? Flash comebacks are JAW DROPPING ^ 5 , i am sleepy, but i can give 2 games just from memories Flash vs Firebathero, when he makes a SICK SICK comeback, dropping upper expansion, some even said that was the biggest comeback of all games ever, and then against leta, where he came back from something noone should come back ever, even though leta made a mistake, but that is the point of a comeback, if a players plays perfectly, u cant make a comeback right ? opponent must make a mistake, so when u say its usually due to other player making a blunder, well it wouldnt be possible to make a comeback if there was no mistake on the opponent side, but the point is that most of the times these mistakes ARE FORCED by great play from flash!!
so maybe instead of trolling, do us a favour and go watch games from the best player of all time..
On March 25 2011 06:10 DarkMatter_ wrote: Yeah, winning the game after the opponent loses about 10 dropships full of units is totally the most jaw dropping comeback ever.
Haha valid point the man makes here. How mnay times has flash microed back in after being contained? Or fought back after losing a base early? Or after his build egts countered?
Look at you here the group 7 and group 5 played and they have so little posts in there and you steal in here talking about what flash did or what flash didn’t witch is my point exactly
When I think of "jaw dropping comebacks", I think of a game like Boxer vs. joyo. In the minds of some Flash fans, it seems that any game where Flash wins after being in a bad/disadvantageous position qualifies as a jaw dropping comeback. If that's what qualifies as jaw dropping, I can post dozens of games by Jaedong where he makes "jaw dropping comebacks".
On March 25 2011 06:30 flip_a_coin wrote: Look at you here the group 7 and group 5 played and they have so little posts in there and you steal in here talking about what flash did or what flash didn’t witch is my point exactly
NO FLASH NOOOO PARTY hahaha
Lol no its just that all the Flash Fans wnna brag about his killer comeback skills he allegedly has. He's amazing yeah, but he's not that entertaining and starcraft does just fine without him.
On March 25 2011 06:31 DarkMatter_ wrote: When I think of "jaw dropping comebacks", I think of a game like Boxer vs. joyo. In the minds of some Flash fans, it seems that any game where Flash wins after being in a bad/disadvantageous position qualifies as a jaw dropping comeback. If that's what qualifies as jaw dropping, I can post dozens of games by Jaedong where he makes "jaw dropping comebacks".
Wow, you consider what pretty much everyone acknowledges as the greatest comeback ever to be a jaw dropping comeback? That's pretty shocking.
The problem with all these TvT 'comebacks' is the fact HE was the one who got himself into the bad position usually. He gets out of it sure but he's also lost quite a few where he couldn't get back, and the ones where he did get back were helped by choking like Leta throwing dancing dropships over turrets.
And please nobody mention Flash v Kwanro. That was Kwanro killing himself.
On March 25 2011 06:10 DarkMatter_ wrote: Yeah, winning the game after the opponent loses about 10 dropships full of units is totally the most jaw dropping comeback ever.
Haha valid point the man makes here. How mnay times has flash microed back in after being contained? Or fought back after losing a base early? Or after his build egts countered?
Flash must have had half a dozen or more comebacks more impressive than Boxer vs. Joyo, but because that one's youtube video title says something like "Greatest comeback ever", people seem to think that's some sort of official greatest comeback ever.
On March 25 2011 06:31 DarkMatter_ wrote: When I think of "jaw dropping comebacks", I think of a game like Boxer vs. joyo. In the minds of some Flash fans, it seems that any game where Flash wins after being in a bad/disadvantageous position qualifies as a jaw dropping comeback. If that's what qualifies as jaw dropping, I can post dozens of games by Jaedong where he makes "jaw dropping comebacks".
Wow, you consider what pretty much everyone acknowledges as the greatest comeback ever to be a jaw dropping comeback? That's pretty shocking.
The point is that for something to be considered a jaw dropping comeback, it has to involve two things: 1) The player that makes the comeback has to be in an extremely dire situation, merely having a disadvantage doesn't count. 2) The comeback should largely be the result of the player showing some amazing play, which could involve great micro, an amazing timing attack, some incredible defense etc. When a player wins after his opponent suicides almost his entire army, that can't be considered an amazing comeback.
The Boxer vs. Joyo game just happens to be a good reminder of a comeback that perfectly meets those criteria.
Those games against Kal and Roro certainly meet that criteria and were pretty darn impressive. However, I still think that claiming Flash is the king of making jaw dropping comebacks is incredibly far fetched. I can find plenty of games by JD (for the record, I'm not claiming JD is the king of comebacks either) that are on par with those games as far as comebacks go.
Some games that come to mind: vs. Baby on Circuit Breakers. Loses his 3rd twice but still manages to win despite Baby playing extremely well the whole game. vs. jjonga on HBR. JD is contained in his base by a cannon rush with the forge blocking the choke. On top of that, he is forced to cancel his 2nd hatch when it's about halfway built. Finds the perfect timing to break the contain. Any sooner and he wouldn't have had enough units and any later, the contain would've become too strong. vs. free on Medusa. Goes for 1 hatch lurker which gets scouted as his lurkers are attacking the pyramids, but manages to find the perfect timing and position to place his lurkers. If his decision making was even slightly off or if he hesitated even for a few seconds, it would have been game over. vs. Clon on Sin Peaks of Baekdu. Drone gets stuck, which delays his gas and forces him to pull another drone to kill the drone that is stuck. Huge deal in ZvZ. vs. GoRush on Aztec. Loses ling battle and a bunch of lings get into his main with more streaming in + scourge keeping mutas busy. For about 2 whole minutes, Jaedong appears to be on the verge of dying but just barely manages to keep holding until GoRush runs out of steam. vs. Snow on Dante's Peak. On equal bases with Snow after losing a shitton of drones to Snow's harass and losing every single battle. Completely turns the game around with a double pronged attack combined with some extremely clutch defense.
On March 25 2011 06:31 DarkMatter_ wrote: When I think of "jaw dropping comebacks", I think of a game like Boxer vs. joyo. In the minds of some Flash fans, it seems that any game where Flash wins after being in a bad/disadvantageous position qualifies as a jaw dropping comeback. If that's what qualifies as jaw dropping, I can post dozens of games by Jaedong where he makes "jaw dropping comebacks".
You have the most backwards logic. All boxer did was win after being in a bad/disadvantageous position against Joyo, if you want to use your silly catchall. I bet you don't even know why the comeback Boxer did was so great. I could point to every game Flash makes a comeback on (All the ones mentioned here and no one has mentioned the Flash vs FBH on Neo Medusa game. If it's not the greatest comeback ever it's only second to Boxer vs Joyo for historical respect to Boxer, and no other reason), and all your insane criticisms would directly apply to Boxer.
Guess what? Joyo threw away a won game. Boxer played amazingly to get back into that game and win by the skin of his teeth. This has been Flash's MO ever since he played July in the Broodwar GSL in late 2009. Here's a list of things off the top of my head: Flash vs FBH, the entire Flash vs Fantasy series from the MSL(just watch it it is probably the best played TvT series ever, and second only to Oov vs Boxer for drama), Flash vs Kal, Flash vs Leta(there's multiple of them, pick almost any game flash won against Leta), Flash vs Mind, Flash vs Jaedong (Grandline edition), the entire Flash vs Movie series (Admittedly, movie was a bad PvTer using insanely good builds), Flash vs Zero on PR (people hate it because it's mech, tho), Flash vs Calm on Fighting Spirit (THIS GAME OWNS).
There are so many games I've pretty much forgot, I'm pretty sure Flash was in shitty situations against Pure in their OSL series at one point but I'm not absolutely sure since all I completely remember was Flash 3-0ing him.
I seriously want you to go fucking watch Flash vs FBH on Neo Medusa. After the game, Flash said it was the greatest game he's played in his entire career. You may dislike flash, you may be very critical of him, but you cannot possibly deny that in all of the assuredly amazing games he's put out that his greatest one isn't a great comeback. You may want to nitpick what is jawdropping or not, but how many jawdropping comebacks can you, personally, name that Boxer made in the course of a single game? The only thing you've mentioned is the Joyo game which is perfectly acceptable, but Flash has definitely got that beat so far.
This isn't some slight to Boxer. Boxer was far more amazing in ways completely different to being able to make crazy comebacks. But there's no freaking way you're so sure about this freaking topic.
On March 25 2011 12:43 SimonB wrote: Flash must have had half a dozen or more comebacks more impressive than Boxer vs. Joyo, but because that one's youtube video title says something like "Greatest comeback ever", people seem to think that's some sort of official greatest comeback ever.
Guess what? Joyo threw away a won game. Boxer played amazingly to get back into that game and win by the skin of his teeth. This has been Flash's MO ever since he played July in the Broodwar GSL in late 2009. Here's a list of things off the top of my head: Flash vs FBH, the entire Flash vs Fantasy series from the MSL(just watch it it is probably the best played TvT series ever, and second only to Oov vs Boxer for drama), Flash vs Kal, Flash vs Leta(there's multiple of them, pick almost any game flash won against Leta), Flash vs Mind, Flash vs Jaedong (Grandline edition), the entire Flash vs Movie series (Admittedly, movie was a bad PvTer using insanely good builds), Flash vs Zero on PR (people hate it because it's mech, tho), Flash vs Calm on Fighting Spirit (THIS GAME OWNS).
You can't seem to figure out the difference between a "jaw dropping comeback" vs. "an amazing close, long game that Flash won".
Notice how I didn't mention JD vs. Flash on Tau Cross? That was probably a far more more awesome and tense game than JD vs. Flash on Grandline considering one player didn't carelessly suicide a whole bunch of units (JD flies a bunch of overlords full of ultras and defilers straight into stimmed marines).
I just kind of want to repeat Flash vs FBH endlessly and sprinkle in some Flash vs Fantasy, Roro and Kal for flavor variety. I mean I'm glad you could pick out 1 game that might not fit your definition because Jaedong made a mistake (guess what Joyo made shittons of mistakes that game it's why he lost), but that's a giant list and I'm absolutely sure I've missed some.
You made a kneejerk statement about Boxer (understandable, we loves us some emperor), used the one game everyone and their mother has seen to support it and then don't name another one. I'm going to go out and say that I have most certainly not watched nearly enough Boxer games to determine if he was the comeback king of broodwar, but I'm pretty sure you haven't either or you'd have listed some by now. Atleast I know Flash pretty well, though. Almost as good as knowing Boxer, and I can definitely refute when someone says he doesn't make crazy comebacks. It's not his average games but he certainly does it with alarming frequency.
The last player I saw who could seemingly wrestle a win from a more incredibly desperate situation was GGplay. Now that man could stage a damn comeback.
There's a big difference mistakes and a HUGE blunder that costs you the game. More importantly, it's important to distinguish between blatant screwups vs. questionable decision-making (usually they're apparent only in hindsight). I didn't see anything in the Boxer vs. joyo game that is equivalent to the fuckup by Leta in his game against Flash on PR and to a lesser extent, the fuckup by JD against Flash on Grand Line. Usually, comebacks do depend on the opponent making some mistakes. Great comebacks are dependent on fully exploiting even the smallest mistakes by the opponents, but when the opponent just hands you the game, that's an entirely different matter.
Also, I think you need to read my posts more carefully because you seem to be questioning and refuting claims which I never made.
Since when did this become a debate about whether Boxer or Flash is better at comebacks? A couple of people were mentioning Flash vs. Leta on PR as an example of Flash's apparently jaw dropping comeback and I dismissed that and mentioned Boxer vs. joyo to point out what I consider is a proper example of a jaw dropping comeback. I never said Boxer is the king of comebacks. :/
You also seem to be under the impression that I claimed that Flash never made an impressive comeback. Or that I even dislike Flash... o_O I don't dislike Flash, I've praised him plenty of times. His fans are a different matter entirely though. From what I've gathered, this is what the average Flash fan believes: - Flash is unquestionably the greatest in every single aspect of BW. - When Flash loses, it's because he's not taking the game seriously (see LR threads for vs. JD on Polaris Rhapsody WCG Korea or vs. Calm on Benzene) - When a player wins against a non-Flash Terran, he only won because that Terran wasn't Flash (instead of giving credit to a player for pulling off some cool play Flash fans like to go on and on about how he only won because he played some nooby Terran that isn't Flash).
So yeah, don't confuse my dislike for Flash fanboys with dislike for Flash himself.
In other words DarkMatter_ you are under the impression that many people in the forum don’t really care how other players played against Flash? You maybe wright but this is point exactly.
1. Choose an aspect of Starcraft playing ability, e.g. "making comebacks", "having charisma", "being creative", "being dominant", "multitasking". Bonus points if this ability is something Flash is known for (e.g. "macro", "making comebacks"). 2. Arbitrarily designate an echelon of this ability (e.g. "jaw-dropping"). 3. Claim that this echelon was achieved by the bonjwas of the past or Bisu or Jaedong, but not by Flash. 4. When Flash fans argue otherwise, claim that while Flash may possess this ability to some degree, it cannot meet your chosen, subjective echelon. 5. If Flash fans provide specific arguments to the contrary, claim their invalidity with reference to "terran imba", "opponent made an error", "Flash made an error", "Flash turtle", "Flash too aggressive", "build order luck", etc. 6. Finish by claiming that Flash fanboys are annoying, preferably using a straw man argument.
On March 25 2011 18:47 okum wrote: A step by step guide to trolling Flash fans:
1. Choose an aspect of Starcraft playing ability, e.g. "making comebacks", "having charisma", "being creative", "being dominant", "multitasking". Bonus points if this ability is something Flash is known for (e.g. "macro", "making comebacks"). 2. Arbitrarily designate an echelon of this ability (e.g. "jaw-dropping"). 3. Claim that this echelon was achieved by the bonjwas of the past or Bisu or Jaedong, but not by Flash. 4. When Flash fans argue otherwise, claim that while Flash may possess this ability to some degree, it cannot meet your chosen, subjective echelon. 5. If Flash fans provide specific arguments to the contrary, claim their invalidity with reference to "terran imba", "opponent made an error", "Flash made an error", "Flash turtle", "Flash too aggressive", "build order luck", etc. 6. Finish by claiming that Flash fanboys are annoying, preferably using a straw man argument.
lol, nice May I add "7. Claim that Flash's domination is killing Starcraft"?
On March 25 2011 18:47 okum wrote: 1. Choose an aspect of Starcraft playing ability, e.g. "making comebacks", "having charisma", "being creative", "being dominant", "multitasking". Bonus points if this ability is something Flash is known for (e.g. "macro", "making comebacks").
You make it sound like I'm picking random aspects of Starcraft playing ability and criticizing him for it. Someone else called him a king at making jaw dropping comebacks, and I proceeded to question that. Oh right I forgot, Flash is the best at everything and only an idiot/troll would question that.
2. Arbitrarily designate an echelon of this ability (e.g. "jaw-dropping").
I gave a fairly clear criteria about what I consider to be an impressive comeback, and I acknowledged that a couple of the games mentioned met those criteria.
3. Claim that this echelon was achieved by the bonjwas of the past or Bisu or Jaedong, but not by Flash.
Read above.
4. When Flash fans argue otherwise, claim that while Flash may possess this ability to some degree, it cannot meet your chosen, subjective echelon.
Read above.
5. If Flash fans provide specific arguments to the contrary, claim their invalidity with reference to "terran imba", "opponent made an error", "Flash made an error", "Flash turtle", "Flash too aggressive", "build order luck", etc.
I mentioned his opponents making a blunder (Flash fans apparently can't comprehend that mistakes come in varying degrees) for a couple of the games. Every game where Flash made a comeback, his opponents made mistakes but I didn't use that as an excuse for that game against Roro, for example.
But ofcourse, it's just not possible that Flash wins a game because the opponent completely threw away his chance at winning the game. No, every single "comeback" is due to the perfectly orchestrated genius of Flash. Like that game against Leta, Flash is such a genius with his amazing star sense for building those turrets. Leta suiciding his entire army was all a part of Flash's perfect comeback strategy. god young ho so bonjwa!!
6. Finish by claiming that Flash fanboys are annoying
Well, yeah. Also, reading comprehension doesn't appear to be one of their strong suites.
In simple words DarkMatter_ have you ever thought that you TRUCETALIKING in a threat and knowone really cares what you thing? Weik up man they even made a guide out of you!
But ofcourse, it's just not possible that Flash wins a game because the opponent completely threw away his chance at winning the game. No, every single "comeback" is due to the perfectly orchestrated genius of Flash. Like that game against Leta, Flash is such a genius with his amazing star sense for building those turrets. Leta suiciding his entire army was all a part of Flash's perfect comeback strategy. god young ho so bonjwa!!
Dude, you keep mentioning one game: That's not even the only game where Flash staged a comeback against Leta, it's just the most recent one. Do you have anything to say about Flash vs FBH, or Flash vs Kal, or Flash vs Roro, or Flash vs Calm, or the Flash vs Fantasy series? These are all absolutely amazing games in their own right and it makes a nice booklet of comeback wins.
I just think it was wrong of you to say Flash isn't known for comebacks. He clearly is, moreso than any gamer in several years.
All this "Flash is good/not good" discussion is so redundant it has borderlined on trolling, because it's a horse that has been beaten to death so long ago in so many threads.
On March 25 2011 23:45 flip_a_coin wrote: In simple words DarkMatter_ have you ever thought that you TRUCETALIKING in a threat and knowone really cares what you thing? Weik up man they even made a guide out of you!
NO FLASH NO PARTY
Lol way to troll someone because his favorite player isn't flash like yours. We both clearly presented our sides of the argument and cannot agree. The bottom line here is that the comment "No Flash No Party" is simply not true.. There's plenty of other great players that are equally as entertaining as flash, and on plenty of instances can flat out-play the man (i.e. baby in this series). He's the best, sure, but he deosn't define starcraft nor terran players.
I'm tempted to get some popcorn, and sit down to watch this debate about comebacks. Lunch and a movie (of a sort). Wonder how long this is gonna last....
You shouldn't compare Flash and Boxer. From modern point of view, Boxer's play is awful. This game vs Joyo is like stupidest game I ever saw. There are kings of the past and kings of today, don't mix them.
You're missing the point. I'm not mentioning that one game to try and argue that Flash has never made great comebacks. I'm mentioning that one game because people keep insisting that when someone makes a comeback from a losing position, we shouldn't consider the circumstances that led to that comeback when deciding whether it's a "jaw dropping comeback" or not.....because every comeback involves the opponents making mistakes lololol so an opponent throwing his entire army away by flying 10 dropships over turrets is no different than an opponent that makes some questionable decisions which the other player perfectly capitalizes on to pull of an outstanding comeback because both games involve the losing player making mistakes to lose his advantage. Amazing logic.
That's not even the only game where Flash staged a comeback against Leta, it's just the most recent one. Do you have anything to say about Flash vs FBH, or Flash vs Kal, or Flash vs Roro, or Flash vs Calm, or the Flash vs Fantasy series
Haven't watched Flash vs. FBH, I should probably get on that. I already commented on Flash vs. Kal and vs. Roro, and I did acknowledge that they were impressive comebacks. But hey, let's conveniently ignore that fact because obviously anyone who even slightly questions or criticizes any aspect of Flash's play is a blind Flash hater that isn't willing to accept his brilliance.
I just think it was wrong of you to say Flash isn't known for comebacks. He clearly is, moreso than any gamer in several years.
I disagree. Many of the games you mentioned aren't really examples of "amazing comebacks" but are just games that were incredibly close, tense back and forth games (Flash vs. Fantasy series, for example). If anything, Jaedong is far more famous for always playing incredibly tense games where it always looks like he's hanging by a thread. In the case of Flash, for every close game that he plays, there are 5 games where he just roflstomps his opponent. Maybe Flash's best comeback is better than that of other players, but that doesn't make him the king of comebacks.
On March 26 2011 01:52 DarkMatter_ wrote: You're missing the point. I'm not mentioning that one game to try and argue that Flash has never made great comebacks. I'm mentioning that one game because people keep insisting that when someone makes a comeback from a losing position, we shouldn't consider the circumstances that led to that comeback when deciding whether it's a "jaw dropping comeback" or not.....because every comeback involves the opponents making mistakes lololol so an opponent throwing his entire army away by flying 10 dropships over turrets is no different than an opponent that makes some questionable decisions which the other player perfectly capitalizes on to pull of an outstanding comeback because both games involve the losing player making mistakes to lose his advantage. Amazing logic.
Jeez, dude, you're getting really aggressive about this. My point was you've addressed 3 games of several examples -- and I even acknowledge that Leta's massive blunder let Flash get back into a lost game. It's more noticeable than blunders in other comebacks and I accept it isn't as amazing as, say, flash vs fbh. The most important thing of that game is how well Flash played directly after getting into an almost unwinnable situation. It speaks volumes that, even after throwing away 50 supply in units that Leta was still ahead of Flash for the position he was in.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, you just mentioned it in several posts even when it was just one in a long list of things. It's a really easy to pick out one, sure, but it is just one. I mean you yourself admitted that the roro and kal games were great comebacks, and if you can't refute anything but that ONE comeback vs Leta (like I said, he has others) then that's still a pretty big laundry list.
Haven't watched Flash vs. FBH, I should probably get on that.
Honestly, this is pretty clear that you don't know nearly enough about Flash to determine how crazy his career has been. That's very easily the most famous game of 2009 and arguably the most famous game of Flash's career (power outage probably wins that one). Like I said, high praises when flash says that's the greatest game he ever played.
That's alright, though. Not everyone can have some encyclopedic knowledge of Flash from having a huge devotion to him. That I do is why I feel like I CAN educate you on it.
I already commented on Flash vs. Kal and vs. Roro, and I did acknowledge that they were impressive comebacks. But hey, let's conveniently ignore that fact because obviously anyone who even slightly questions or criticizes any aspect of Flash's play is a blind Flash hater that isn't willing to accept his brilliance.
Whoa whoa whoa, pal, you're shoving all sorts of words in my mouth. Did I ever even call you a blind flash hater? Even slightly? I understand that you don't want to baselessly accept that Flash is well known for his comebacks. If I did I'd just call you dumb and move on like a mindless drone. I'm trying to convince you because you seem to not know, or atleast not remember, a whole lot of Flash's career in regards to this topic.
If you wanted to actually learn about the issue of Flash's games, wouldn't you want someone who has not only watched every game Flash has played, but knows a whole lot about them? There's nothing wrong about not being a fan of Flash and I'll never say there is, so don't be so offended. I really, really don't want to offend you here.
I disagree. Many of the games you mentioned aren't really examples of "amazing comebacks" but are just games that were incredibly close, tense back and forth games (Flash vs. Fantasy series, for example). If anything, Jaedong is far more famous for always playing incredibly tense games where it always looks like he's hanging by a thread. In the case of Flash, for every close game that he plays, there are 5 games where he just roflstomps his opponent. Maybe Flash's best comeback is better than that of other players, but that doesn't make him the king of comebacks.
Um, what? Jaedong is the most amazing zerg ever but he is not known for crazy comebacks. I saw your list of games earlier in the thread and the only two of those that count as comebacks are the ones vs Baby and Snow. Jaedong has an absolutely insane winrate, but not nearly as many comebacks. I think that's partly to do with the races they both play. I'd say Terran's defensive nature lends itself to staying in a game longer after taking a heavy blow -- it speaks volumes that a whole shitton of Flash's comebacks are in TvT, for instance.
TwoToneTerran, I should point out that not everything I've posted was meant to be a response to you specifically. If you look at some of the posts made by other Flash fans, you'll see why I said some of the things that I did.
Also, you mentioned how I've only addressed a few of the games that you brought up as examples of Flash's comebacks. That's because those few are some of the only games that actually involve legitimate comebacks. How on earth were Flash vs. Zero or Flash vs. Calm examples amazing comebacks by Flash? They were just amazing games (although as a zerg player, the vs. Zero game left a bad taste in my mouth). Like I said, if you want to bring up any game that manages to be long, close and tense and call that an amazing comeback, I can find find dozens of games by JD that fit that criteria. I already told you that I don't think JD is the king of comebacks either, but all I'm saying is that based on your loose criteria, he might as well be considered one. Jaedong is far more notable for being involved in extremely close games (and winning a good chunk of them). If you don't believe me, I can post a whole bunch of examples.
The games I posted by JD were much better examples of comebacks since they actually involve JD having a major deficit/disadvantage and overcoming it.
BTW, I watched Flash vs. FBH and it was a pretty outrageous game, definitely one of the best comebacks. I don't think it should be compared to Boxer vs. joyo because they were both jaw dropping in different ways, although Flash's comeback was a superior display of amazing skill.
The Flash vs Zero game was kind of a gross comeback, but a comeback none the less. And the Flash vs Calm game was absolutely a comeback -- I even remember the TL team doing a write up for it in their OSL analysis showing how much shit Flash was in before he pulled it off.
Thanks for trying to be reasonable though. Every group has their bad fans and I know I look like one a lot of the time with my big old honking posts that no one wants to read. I will persist that Flash's entire bonjwa run was predicated on his insane ability to win almost every game, even when he shouldn't have several times. It's fairly subjective and if you're not convinced yet then, hell, agree to disagree I guess.
Look DarkMatter_ some people they tried to tell you are off topic this is a thread that flash played a game and full of flash fans arguing and mentioning other players will lead you to nowhere. Flash fans are smart enough not to follow you in your favorite player thread were we sure it happens nothing Sirius with the crap you write.
Haha can't believe someone is trying to say Flash isn't much of a comeback player cause his opponents made mistakes. How the fuck do you come back from a losing position if your opponent doesn't make mistakes? Everything Joyo did in that game against Boxer was a fucking mistake if you think about it, he could have done like 80 things to ensure victory.
Also love how you don't bother to watch one of the greatest games ever played (Flash vs FBH, ranked #2 proleague game of all time) and continue to argue. Yeah the Leta game was a ridiculous blunder by Leta, what about the other Leta games? What about Flash vs Hwasin on Medusa (highly underrated comeback game)? Just go read LRs and see how many of them say "not even Flash can come back from this this time" into "how the fuck did he come back again?". The fact that it got to the point where people were saying "not even Flash can come back from this this time" should tell you how his play has been perceived.
Oh yeah, guess it wasn't his skill though just opponent's messing up?
On March 22 2011 20:36 a7choi wrote: flash just wryly smiling knowing that baby knows he can never beat flash in a straight up game
who cares. He has done what he has to do. We all know tha FLash is the best player. If you cant beat him straight up the cheese him.
flash started his career by doing some incredible cheese to take top players, nothing wrong in beating a player using cheese
people don't understant that cheese is what makes the game good and unpredictable, if top players could win all the game by playing standard, there wouldn't be much competition
I just wanted to add that the possibility of cheese keeps top players honest. One of the reasons Flash is able to continue his streak of dominance is that he is constantly cheating towards macro openings, gets away with it because he's Flash, and then wins the game because he's brilliant at turning tiny advantages into wins by not making mistakes. Look at how many times out of his last 20 TvT games he's opened 14cc, as opposed to a more average pro like Sea or Light, or someone whose overall game is extremely variable, like Fantasy. Even in this game Flash looked like he was trying to go 14cc until he scouted no buildings... hence the slightly slow rax. Beating him "straight up" doesn't mean as much as you might think when "straight up" is a rax cc vs 14cc.
Baby probably saw that trend and decided to take advantage... which means that not only was his execution beautiful - the SCV/bunker micro had me yelling at my screen for joy - but his decision-making from start to finish was excellent. He earned that win, in as "straight up" a manner as anyone could reasonably ask, and I have to admit that I'd like to see Flash losing to cheese a bit more often so that we can see if his fantastic ability to avoid making minor mistakes in a long macro game can be converted into wins as easily if he doesn't have an advantage right from the start.
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