EPTI prefer JD>>>>>>>Flash by a ton, but I can clearly tell you Flash is just on another level atm.
[SWL] KT Rolster vs Hwaseung OZ - Page 50
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
I prefer JD>>>>>>>Flash by a ton, but I can clearly tell you Flash is just on another level atm. | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
Basically given the Academy timing there was no way Flash was going to fail to scan the Hydra Den and once that happened of course he's going to send out an SCV. He even could have sent out an SCV after the first set of scans where he came up empty (but I'm sure he knew that the Lurker timing that early was impossible). As for people complaining about 14CC, are you serious? Flash scouted before 14CC. If anything Jaedong is the one who took a blind risk, assuming that Flash's scout indicated that Flash was doing the scout -> 14CC build, as opposed to some sort of delayed Bunker rush or something (now that would be some great mind games). Basically I don't fully understand Jaedong's build because I don't see how with 3 Hatch before Pool you can manage to do the Lurker bust before getting your Hydra Den scanned (since Terran has 4 scans). I think Jaedong would have been better off just being annoying at Flash's natural cliff. This would have delayed Flash just as long if not longer than the runby that totally failed, and he still could have followed up with his double expand build. Even with a Bunker near the min line it's still a huge pain to clear out Lurkers up there with only infantry (and Flash wasn't even adding a Factory yet). Seems to me that choice would have been strictly better, not saying I know better than the Dong of course, but hindsight helps. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
 50 minerals in a barracks, gg comes out...you can't explain that. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Edit: still though, i thought JD was going to burrow at nat and take out bunker, you got the lings there as support anyway to take hits. That would have been preferable.The problem is with every game i see him go lurkers against Flash (and other players for that matter, vs Soulkey on Grand Line the same happened) they die too easily trying to use typical micro. Better to use them defensively or at least have them burrowed in advance of the engagement. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
Nice to see Action 2 kill. | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On March 08 2011 03:19 mierin wrote: Yuck. Just...Yuck 50 minerals in a barracks, gg comes out...you can't explain that. LOL +1 sad though | ||
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Ikonn
Netherlands1958 Posts
On March 08 2011 03:19 mierin wrote: Yuck. Just...Yuck 50 minerals in a barracks, gg comes out...you can't explain that. I know right! Unlike zerglings, who are half the price and so very rarely win games for zerg | ||
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_romantic
United States455 Posts
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
On March 08 2011 03:15 darktreb wrote: If you listen closely to the VOD (or if you understand TvZ timings) you'll know that Flash had time to do two sets of scans (so 4 scans). Therefore he was pretty much guaranteed to scan the Hydra den, since he'd either get it the first time (which he actually didn't! Jaedong got lucky that Flash chose main/natural to scan) or, seeing as how JD had no Spire (or any tech buildings at all for that matter), he'd definitely scan the third Hatch with his third scan. Basically given the Academy timing there was no way Flash was going to fail to scan the Hydra Den and once that happened of course he's going to send out an SCV. He even could have sent out an SCV after the first set of scans where he came up empty (but I'm sure he knew that the Lurker timing that early was impossible). As for people complaining about 14CC, are you serious? Flash scouted before 14CC. If anything Jaedong is the one who took a blind risk, assuming that Flash's scout indicated that Flash was doing the scout -> 14CC build, as opposed to some sort of delayed Bunker rush or something (now that would be some great mind games). Basically I don't fully understand Jaedong's build because I don't see how with 3 Hatch before Pool you can manage to do the Lurker bust before getting your Hydra Den scanned (since Terran has 4 scans). I think Jaedong would have been better off just being annoying at Flash's natural cliff. This would have delayed Flash just as long if not longer than the runby that totally failed, and he still could have followed up with his double expand build. Even with a Bunker near the min line it's still a huge pain to clear out Lurkers up there with only infantry (and Flash wasn't even adding a Factory yet). Seems to me that choice would have been strictly better, not saying I know better than the Dong of course, but hindsight helps. I think it all would be ok if JD just didn't do this silly run-by. It just doesn't work vs Flash. His micro is perfect. JD then could get to hive tech and then .. it could become a normal game where JD had fairly the same chances as Flash. It's just that lurker-first build is still very undeveloped adapting to modern play. I personally hope that it would be developed. So bad to see no alternative in zerg's play. Always 2 hatch muta or 3 hatch muta... when terran has 12348976 options to do. I like very much that 3 hatch hydra into [insert here any option based on scouting] becomes more standard in ZvP. And I would like to see more lurker ZvT too.  | ||
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Archers_bane
United States1338 Posts
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
But honestly, I'd prefer his one convincing win vs Flash to anything else. | ||
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zenMaster
Canada761 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:30 Ikonn wrote: I know right! Unlike zerglings, who are half the price and so very rarely win games for zerg Hiding behind buildings or blocking chokes can easily solve lings, but you can't do shit about marines once the Terran builds up a big MnM ball. Lurkers? Focus kill one then run back, attack from different angle. U Mad lurker? Swarm? Drag select and move back. U Mad defiler? | ||
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
The problem isn't in imba of some unit or technique, no matter how much we'd like it to be so. X_x The problem is in correct and incorrect response to the fact that your opponent can use those micro techniques. X_x | ||
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huameng
United States1133 Posts
On March 07 2011 22:45 dibbaN wrote: Yada yada, come back when you possess the ability to understand my point. No one has questioned Flashs M&M micro is the best of the best, that is pretty much presupposed. In regards of micro a peculiar thing is how an excellent Terran micro completely nullifies any micro the Zerg has. My original point was that it's sad that throwing so many units at a crucial point in the game has no major impact when, if it instead were the Zerg who threw the units, he could might aswell surrender immediately. Both of these points have been proven several times by J and F, when the former was considered the obvious best and won several starleagues the same year, but would still lose to F on many occassions. Whereas in 90% of those scenarios J did everything possible but still lost, and in the remaining 10% he did something stupid he knew he had lost straight away. FvZ was probably even better back then too. PS. Questioning what is given is not equal to being angry. Try not to think out too loud, you are by doing so proving that the good old quote "It's better to keep quiet and have people think you stupid, than to talk and confirm it." needs an extension for internet forums. :-) User was warned for this post First, why can people not use the internet without calling people stupid? -_- Nice smilie on the end btw, real classy. Second, don't expect people to understand your point when you leave out the most important word! "...did have any significant impact on the outcome." certainly is not the same as "did not have any significant impact on the outcome." and it would be ridiculous to expect people to treat those the same. Third, what, exactly, do you think should happen when Flash loses his units? There are a ton of events going on, wouldn't it be ridiculous for any single mistake to have a significant impact on the outcome? Do you think all those battles Flash got the better of, and the economic damage he dealt, shouldn't matter because he lost a battle later? And what made that point in the game so crucial? Jaedong hadn't had anything going all game--he was showing absolutely no signs of leaving his side of the map, or even controlling a fourth gas. That point in time was definitely less crucial than the time when Jaedong did his unsuccessful runby, or when Flash broke the min-only and stopped mining at the fourth, where Flash crushed Jaedong in fights, right? Also, when has Jaedong ever done "everything possible" vs Flash and lost? On March 08 2011 05:20 zenMaster wrote: Hiding behind buildings or blocking chokes can easily solve lings, but you can't do shit about marines once the Terran builds up a big MnM ball. Lurkers? Focus kill one then run back, attack from different angle. U Mad lurker? Swarm? Drag select and move back. U Mad defiler? Hahaha are you kidding? Yeah I guess Terran can use chokes to help vs zerglings. If only Zerg had some units which worked well in chokes, the matchup would be fair. | ||
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Eun_Star
United States322 Posts
Flash went for up-terran build with 5 rax, sacrificing his tech. Had Jaedong went mutalisks, he would have been a worse position imo. Flash would have had his m&m forces with +1 upgrades all over the map, and there is no way a group of muta can easily handle that (jaedong also went for fast carapace upgrade to match the +1 of flash). So Jaedong tried to do a back stab, which was immediately caught by flash. Luckily for jaedong flash had the most of his units out on the field and his 5 rax just came up, jaedong had the chance to harrass the natural, but he decided to run-by, which failed. Jaedong knew that he was incredibly behind at this point, so he tries to double expand by taking the mineral only and 11 o'clock expansion. Guess what, jaedong had a poor positioning of lurkers and flash rolled over jaedong from there. You can't cry about marines because flash split his marines and found a opening in jaedong's defense. Had flash failed the attack, jaedong would have easily taken the 4th gas to go into hive play. Iirc, flash didn't even have enough minerals to expand while pumping marines from 5 rax. | ||
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czechue
Poland13 Posts
A pity Hiya lost so easly, 1 bunker would change a game. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
seriously what is this | ||
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yB.TeH
Germany418 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On March 08 2011 05:42 Eun_Star wrote: Seriously? After +10 years of bw, people are still complaining about balance. Jaedong made mistakes in the game which lead to his loss. Flash played near perfect. Flash went for up-terran build with 5 rax, sacrificing his tech. Had Jaedong went mutalisks, he would have been a worse position imo. Flash would have had his m&m forces with +1 upgrades all over the map, and there is no way a group of muta can easily handle that (jaedong also went for fast carapace upgrade to match the +1 of flash). So Jaedong tried to do a back stab, which was immediately caught by flash. Luckily for jaedong flash had the most of his units out on the field and his 5 rax just came up, jaedong had the chance to harrass the natural, but he decided to run-by, which failed. Jaedong knew that he was incredibly behind at this point, so he tries to double expand by taking the mineral only and 11 o'clock expansion. Guess what, jaedong had a poor positioning of lurkers and flash rolled over jaedong from there. You can't cry about marines because flash split his marines and found a opening in jaedong's defense. Had flash failed the attack, jaedong would have easily taken the 4th gas to go into hive play. Iirc, flash didn't even have enough minerals to expand while pumping marines from 5 rax. I am not sc bw expert and I haven't beem following bw much. But some of Korean A-class progamers mentioned that T is favored in TvZ. And mapmackers are doing huge job to balance the matchup and they do not always succeed. Just check map statistics. | ||
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